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tality." It is not a going forth, but a pass over, and when
our temporal course is run, a going over to immortality."
" Let us embrace that day, which assigns every one of us to
our dwelling, and restores those which are snatched from
hence, and are disentangled from the snares of the world, to
Paradise, and the heavenly kingdom." There are here many
other things so plainly spoken to this purpose, that I wonder
any papist should read that treatise, and not be cured of his

To the same purpose is that of St. Dionysius, calling death
the end of holy agonies ; and therefore it is to be supposed
they have no more agonies to run through immediately after
death. To this E. W. answers ;P that St. Dionysius means,
" that death is the end of all the agonies of this life." A goodly
note ! and never revealed till then and now ; as if this were
a good argument to encourage men to contend bravely, and
not to fear death, because when they are once dead, they
shall no more be troubled with the troubles of this life ; in-
deed you may go to worse, and death may let you into a
state of being as bad as hell, and of greater torments than
all the pains of this world put together amount to. But to
let alone such ridiculous subterfuges, see the words of St.
Dionys : " They that live a holy life, looking to the true
promises of God, as if they were to behold the truth itself in
that resurrection, which is according to it, with firm and true
hope, and in a divine joy, come to the sleep of death, as to
an end of all holy contentions." Now certainly if the doc-
trine of purgatory were true, and that they who had con-
tended here, and for all their troubles in this world, were
yet in a tolerable condition, should be told, that now they
shall go to worse, he that should tell them so would be
but one of Job's comforters. No, the servant of God,
' coming to the end of his own troubles' (viz. by death), ' is
filled with holy gladness, and with much rejoicing ascends
to the way of divine regeneration,' viz. to immortality, which
word can hardly mean, that they shall be tormented a great
while in hell-fire.

p P. 39.


The words of Justin Martyr, q or whoever is the author
of those questions and answers imputed to him, affirms, that
" presently after the departure of the soul from the body, a
distinction is made between the just and the unjust, for they
are brought by angels to places worthy of them ; the souls
of the just to Paradise, where they have the conversation
and sight of angels and archangels, but the souls of the
unrighteous to the places in hades, the invisible region or
hell." Against these words, because they pinch severely,
E. W. r thinks himself bound to say something; and therefore,
1. Whereas Justin Martyr says, after our departure presently
there is a separation made, he answers, that Justin Martyr
means here to speak of the two final states after the day of
judgment, for so it seems he understands e&vs, or, ' presently
after death,' to mean the ' day of judgment;' of the time of
which neither men nor angels know any thing. And whereas
Justin Martyr says, that presently the souls of the righteous
go to Paradise, E. W. answers, 3 2. That Justin does not say,
that all just souls are carried presently into heaven; no,
Justin says, ' into Paradise :' true ; but let it be remembered
that it is so a part of heaven, as ' limbus infantum' is by
themselves called a part of hell; that is, a ' place of bliss;'
the region of the blessed. But, 3. Justin says, that presently
there is a separation made, but he says not that the souls of
the righteous are carried to Paradise. That is the next an-
swer, which the very words of Justin do contradict : " There
is presently a separation made of the just and unjust, for they
are by the angels carried to the places they have deserved."
This is the separation which is made, one is carried to Pa-
radise, the other to a place in hell. But these being such
pitiful offers at answering, the gentleman tries another way,
and says, 4. That this affirmative of Justin contradicts an-
other saying of Justin, which I cited out of Sixtus Senensis,
that Justin Martyr and many other of the fathers affirmed
that the souls of men are kept in secret receptacles, " reserved
unto the sentence of the great day ;" and that before then no
man " receives according to his works done in this life." To
this I answer, that one opinion does not contradict another;
for though the fathers believed that " they who die in the
Lord, rest from their labours," and are in blessed places,
and have antepasts of joy and comforts, yet, in those places,

i Resp. ad. quest. 75. P. 33. Ibid.


they are reserved unto the judgment of the great day : the
intermedial joy or sorrow respectively of the just and unjust
does but antedate the final sentence ; and as the comforts of
God's Spirit in this life are indeed graces of God and rewards
of piety; as the torments of an evil conscience are the wages
of impiety; yet as these do not hinder, but that the great
reward is given at doomsday and not before, so neither do
the joys which the righteous have in the interval. They can
both consist together, and are generally affirmed by very
many of the Greek and Latin fathers. And methinks this
gentleman* might have learned, from Sixtus Senensis, how
to have reconciled these two opinions ; for he quotes him,
saying there is a double beatitude; the one imperfect, of soul
only ; the other consummate and perfect, of soul and body.
The first the fathers called by the several names of ' Sinus
Abrahse,' 'Atrium Dei,' ' Sub Altare,'&c. The other, * perfect
joy,' ' the glory of the resurrection,' &c. But it matters not
what is said, or how it be contradicted, so it seem but to serve
a present turn. But at last, if nothing of this will do, these
words are not the words of Justin, for he is not the author
of the Questions and Answers ' ad Orthodoxos.' To which
I answer, It matters not whether they be Justin's or no :
but they are put together in the collection of his works, and
they are generally called his, and cited under his name, and
made use of by Bellarmine," when he supposes them to be
to his purpose. However, the author is ancient and ortho-
dox, and so esteemed in the Church, and in this particular
speaks according to the doctrine of the more ancient doc-
tors; well ! but how is this against purgatory? x says E. W.
for they may be in secret receptacles, after they have been
in purgatory. To this I answer, that he dares not teach that
for doctrine in the Church of Rome, who believes that the
souls delivered out of purgatory go immediately to the hea-
ven of the blessed ; and therefore if his book had been worth
the perusing by the censors of books, he might have been
questioned, and followed Mr. White's fortune. And he adds,
' it might be afterward according to Origen's opinion;' that is,
purgatory might be after the day of judgment; for so Origen
held, that all the fires are purgatory, and the devils themselves

* E. W. p. 36.

u Lib. de Baptis. c. 2 j, 26. lib. de Confirmat. c. 5 ; lib. iii. de Euchar. c. 6.

* P. 36. line 29.


should be saved. Thus this poor gentleman, thinking it
necessary to answer one argument against purgatory brought
in the ' Dissuasive,' cares not to answer by a condemned he-
resy, rather than reason shall be taught by any son of the
Church of England. But however, the very words of the
fathers cross his slippery answers so, that they thrust him
into a corner ; for in these receptacles the godly have joy,
and they enter into them as soon as they die, and abide there
till the day of judgment.

St. Ambrose y is so full, pertinent, and material, to the
question in hand, and so destructive of the Roman hypo-
thesis, that nothing can be said against it. His words are
these : " Therefore, in all regards, death is good, because it
divides those that were always fighting, that they may
not impugn each other, and because it is a certain port to
them, who, being tossed in the sea of this world, require
the station of faithful rest ; and because it makes not our
state worse, but such as it finds every one, such it reserves
him to the future judgment, and nourishes him with rest,
and withdraws him from the envy of present things, and
composes him with the expectation of future things." E. W.
thinking himself bound to say something to these words,
answers, " It is an excellent saying, for worse he is
not, but infinitely better, that, quit of the occasions of
living here, is ascertained of future bliss hereafter, which
is the whole drift of the saint in that chapter : read it, and
say afterward if I say not true." 2 It is well put off. But
there are very many that read him, who never, will or can
examine what St. Ambrose says ; and with all such he hopes
to escape. But as to the thing : that death gives a man
advantage, and, by its own fault, no disadvantage, is indeed
not only the whole drift of that chapter, but of that whole
book. But not for that reason only is a man the better
for death, but because it makes him not worse in order to
eternity ; nay, it does not alter him at all as to that, for as
death finds him, so shall the judgment find him (and there-
fore not purified by purgatory) ; for such he is reserved ; and
not only thus, but it cherishes him with rest, which would
be very ill done if death carried him to purgatory. Now all
these last words and many others, E. W. is pleased to take

y De Bono Mortis, c. iv. P. 34.


no notice of, as not being for his purpose. But he that
pleases to see more, may read the twelfth and eighteenth
chapters of the same treatise.

St. Gregory's a saying, that after this life there is no pur-
gation, can no way be put off by any pretences. For he
means it of the time after death before the day of judgment,
which is directly opposed to the doctrine of the Church of
Rome ; and unless you will suppose that St. Gregory be-
lieved two purgatories, it is certain he did not believe the
Roman ; for he taught that the purgation which he calls
' baptism by fire,' and ' the saving yet as by fire,' was to be
performed at the day of judgment : and the curiosity of that
trial is the fierceness of that fire, as Nicetas expounds St.
Gregory's words in his oration, ' in Sancta Lumina.' So that
St. Gregory, affirming that this world is the place of purga-
tion, and that after this world there is no purgation, could
not have spoken any thing more direct against the Roman

St. Hilary and St. Macarius speak of two states after
death, and no more. True, saysE.W. ; "but they are the
two final states." That is true too, in some sense, for it is
either of eternal good, or evil ; but to one of these states
they are consigned and determined at the time of their death,
at which time every one is sent either to the bosom of Abra-
ham, or to a place of pain, where they are reserved to the
sentence of the great day. St. Hilary's words are these :
"There is no stay or delaying. For the day of judgment
is either an eternal retribution of beatitude or of pain : but
the time of our death hath every one in his laws, whiles
either Abraham (viz. the bosom of Abraham) or pain re-
serves every one unto the judgment." These words need no
commentary. He that can reconcile these to the Roman
purgatory, will be a most mighty man in controversy. And
so also are the words of St. Macarius : b "When they go
out of the body, the choirs of angels receive their souls, and
carry them to their proper place, tig rw xaQagav aium, ' to
a pure world,' and so lead them to the Lord." Such words
as these -are often repeated by the holy fathers and doctors

S. Greg. Nazianz. orat. 15, in Plagam Grandinis. MSi u-ri^ TJJV rav-rnt
trri rif xdS-agffif.

b Homil. xxii. Vide etiam bomil. ixvi.


of the ancient Church ; I sum them up with the saying of St.
Athanasius : O-Jx 'ian ro7; d/xa/o/j Sai/arog, c &c. " It is not
death that happens to the righteous, but a translation : for
they are translated out of this world into everlasting rest.
And as a man would go out of prison, so do the saints go
out of this troublesome life, unto those good things which
are prepared for them." Now let these and all the precedent
words be confronted against the sad complaints made for
the souls in purgatory by John Gerson in his ' Querela
Defunctorum/ and Sir Thomas More in his 'Supplication of
Souls,' and it will be found that the doctrine of the fathers
differs from the doctrine of the Church of Rome as much as
heaven and hell, rest and labour, horrid torments and great
joy. I conclude this matter of quotations by th'e saying of
Pope Leo, which one of 'my adversaries ' d could not find,
because the printer was mistaken ; it is the ninety-first
epistle, so known and so used by the Roman writers in the
question of confession, that if he be a man of learning, it
cannot be supposed but he knew where to find them. The
words are these: " But if any of them, for whom we pray
unto the Lord, being intercepted by any obstacle, falls from
the benefit of the present indulgences, and, before he comes
to the constituted remedies, shall end his temporal life by
human condition (or frailty), that which abjding in the body
he hath not received, being out of the flesh he cannot." Now
against these words of St. Leo, set the present doctrine of
the Church of Rome ; " that what is not finished of penances
here, a man may pay in purgatory :" and let the world
judge, whether St. Leo was, in this point, a Roman Catholic.
Indeed St. Leo forgot to make use of the late distinction of
sins venial and mortal, of the punishment of mortal sins re-
maining after the fault is taken away ; but I hope the Roman
doctors will excuse the sainl, because the distinction is but
new and modern. But this testimony of St. Gregory must
not go for a single testimony : " That which, abiding in the
body, could not be received, out of the body cannot;" that
is, when the soul is gone out of the body, as death finds
them, so shall the day of judgment find them. And this was
the sense of the whole Church; for after death there is no
change of state before the general trial ; no passing from

c De Virgin. d Letter, p. 18.


pain to rest in the state of separation ; and therefore either
there are no purgatory pains, or, if there be, there is no ease
of them before the day of judgment^and the prayers and
masses of the Church cannot give remedy to one poor soul ;
and this must of necessity be confessed by the Roman doc-
tors, or else they must shew that ever any one catholic father
did teach, that after death, and before the day of judgment,
any souls are translated into a state of bliss out of a state of
pain : that is, that from purgatory they go to heaven before
the day of judgment. He that can shew this, will teach me
what I have not yet learned ; but he that cannot sheAv it,
must not pretend, that the Roman doctrine of purgatory was
ever known to the ancient fathers of the Church.


Of Transubstantiation.

THE purpose of the ' Dissuasive' was to prove the doctrine of
transubstantiation to be new, neither catholic nor apostolic ;
in order to which I thought nothing more likely to persuade
or dissuade, than the testimonies of the parties against them-
selves. And although I have many other inducements (as
will appear in the sequel), yet by so earnestly contending
to invalidate the truth of the quotations, the adversaries do
confess by implication ; if these sayings be, as is pretended,
then I have evinced my main point, viz. that the Roman doc-
trines, as differing v from us, are novelties, and no parts of
the catholic faith.

Thus therefore the author of the Letter begins : e " He
quotes Scotus, as declaring that the doctrine of transubstan-
tiation is not expressed in the canon of the Bible ; which he
saith not. To the same purpose he quotes Ocham, but I
can find no such thing in him. To the same purpose he
quotes Roffensis, but he hath no such thing." But in order
to the verification of what I said, I desire it to be first observed
what I did say, for I did not deliver it so crudely as this gen-
tleman sets it down : for, 1. These words "the doctrine of

P. is.


transubstantiation is not expressed in the canon of the
Bible" are not the words of all them before named ; they
are the sense of them all, but the words but of one or two
of them. 2. When I say that some of the Roman writers
say, that transubstantiation is not expressed in the Scripture,
1 mean, and so I said plainly, " as without the Church's de-
claration to compel us to admit of it." Now then, for the
quotations themselves, I hope I shall give a fair account.
1. The words quoted, are the words of Biel : when he had
first affirmed that Christ's body is contained truly under the
bread, and that it is taken by the faithful (all which we be-
lieve and teach in the Church of England), he adds; " Tamen
quomodo ibi sit Christi corpus, an per conversionem alicujus
in ipsum" (that is the way of transubstantiation), "an sine
conversione incipiat esse corpus Christi cum pane, manen-
tibus substantia et accideutibus panis, non invenitur expres-
sum in canone Biblii :" and that is the way of consubstantia-
tion ; so that here is expressly taught what I affirmed was
taught, that the Scriptures did not express the doctrine of
transubstantiation ; and he adds, that concerning this, there
were anciently divers opinions. Thus far the quotation is
right; but of this man there is no notice taken. But what
of Scotus? ' He saith no such thing;' well, suppose that;
yet I hope this gentleman will excuse me for Bellarmine's
sake, who says the same thing of Scotus as I do, and he
might have found it in the margent against the quotation of
Scotus, if he had pleased. His words are these : " Secondly,
he saith (viz. Scotus) that there is not extant any place of
Scripture so express, without the declaration of the Church,
that it can compel us to admit of transubstantiation : and
this is not altogether improbable ; for though the scriptures
which we brought above, seem so clear to us, that it may
compel a man that is not wilful, yet whether it be so or no,
it may worthily be doubted, since most learned and acute
men (such as Scotus eminently was) believe the contrary ." f
Well ! But the gentleman can find no such thing in Ochain :
I hope he did not look far, for Ocham is not the man I mean ;
however, the printer might have mistaken, but it is easily
pardonable, because from O. Cam. meaning Odo Camera-
censis, it was easy for the printer or transcriber to write

f Lib. iii. de Euchar. c. 23. sect. Secundo dicit.


Ocam, as being of more public name ; but the Bishop of
Cambray is the man that followed Scotus in this opinion,
and is acknowledged by Bellarmine to have said the same
that Scotus did, he being one of his ' docti et acutissimi
viri' there mentioned. g Now if Roffensis* have the same
thing too, this author of the Letter will have cause enough to
be a little ashamed : and for this, I shall bring his words.
Speaking of the whole institution of the blessed sacrament
by our blessed Saviour, he says, " Neque ullum hie verbum
positum est, quo probetur in nostra missa veram fieri carnis
et sanguinis Christi prsesentiam." h I suppose I need to say
no more to verify these citations ; but yet 1 have another very
good witness to prove that I have said true ; and that is
Salmeron,' who says that Scotus, out of Innocentius, reck-
ons three opinions, not of heretics, but of such men who all
agreed in that which is the main ; but he adds, " Some men
and writers believe, that this article cannot be proved against
a heretic, by Scripture alone, or reasons alone. And so Ca-
jetan is affirmed by Suarez and Alanus to have said ; and
Melchior Canus : J " Perpetuam Marise virginitatem conver-
sionem panis et vini in corpus et sanguinem Christi non ita
expressa in libris canonicis invenies, sed adeo tamen certa
in fide sunt, ut contrariorum dogmatum auctores ecclesia
haereticos judicarit." So that the Scripture is given up k for
no sure friend in this question : the article wholly relies upon
the authority of the Church, viz. of Rome, who makes faith,
and makes heresies as she please. But to the same purpose
is that also which Chedzy said in his disputation at Oxford ;
" In what manner Christ is there, whether with the bread
transelemented or transubstantiation, the Scripture, in open
words, tells not."

But I am not likely so to escape, for E. W. 1 talks of a
famous, or rather infamous, quotation out of Peter Lombard,
and adds foul and uncivil words, which I pass by : but the
thing is this ; that I said " Petrus Lombardus could not tell
whether there was a substantial change or no." I did say so,
and I brought the very words of Lombard to prove it, and
these very words E. W. himself acknowledges. " Si autem

* Ubi supra. h Contra Captiv. Babyl. c. i.

Tom. ix. tract 16, pp. 108, 110. J Lib. i. de tuchar. c. 34.

k Page 37. Vide Letter, p. 18.
1 Page 38. See also the Letter to a Friend, p. 19.


quaeritur qualis sit ista conversio, an formalis an substantia-
lis, vel altering generis, definire non sufficio ; I am not
able to define or determine, whether that change be formal
or substantial :" so far E. W. quotes him, but leaves out
one thing very material, viz. " whether besides formal, or sub-
stantial, it be of another kind." Now E. W. not being able
to deny that Lombard said this, takes a great deal of useless
pains, not one word of all that he says being to the purpose,
or able to make it probable, that Peter Lombard did not say
so, or that he did not think so. But the thing is this : Biel
reckoned three opinions which, in Lombard's time, were in.
the Church : the first of consubstantiation, which was the
way, wbich long since then, Luther followed. The second,
that the substance of bread is made the flesh of Christ, but
ceases not to be what it was. But this is not the doctrine
of transubstantiation ; for that makes a third opinion, which
is, that the substance of bread ceases to be, and nothing re-
mains but the accident. " Quartam opinionem addit magister,"
that is, Peter Lombard " adds a fourth opinion ;" that the
substance of bread is not converted, but is annihilated : this
is made by Scotus to be the second opinion. Now of these
four opinions, all which were then permitted and disputed,
Peter Lombard'" seems to follow the second ; but if this was
his opinion, it was no more ; for he could not determine, whe-
ther that that were the truth or no. But whether he does or
no, truly, I think it is very hard for any man to tell : for this
question was but in the forge, not polished, not made bright
with long handling. And this was all that I affirmed out of
the Master of Sentences ; I told of no opinion of his at all;
but that, in his time, they did not know whether it (viz.
the doctrine of transubstantiation) were true or no, that is,
the generality of the Roman Catholics did not know : and he
himself could not define it. And this appears unanswerably by
Peter Lombard's bringing their several sentiments in this arti-
cle : and they that differ in their judgments about an article,
and yet esteem the others catholic, may think what they please,
but they cannot tell certainly what is truth. But then, as for
Peter Lombard h.inself, all that I said of him was this, that
he coulJ not tell, he could not determine, whether there was
any substantial change or no. If, in his after-discourse, he

" Ubi supra.


declares that the change is of substances, he told it for no
other than as a mere opinion ; if he did, let him answer for
that, not I; for that he could not determine it, himself ex-
pressly said it, in the beginning of the eleventh distinction.
And, therefore, these gentlemen would better have consulted
with truth and modesty, if they had let this alone, and not
have made such an outcry against a manifest truth. Now let
me observe one thing, which will be of great use in this whole
affair, and demonstrate the change of this doctrine. These
three opinions were all held by catholics, and the opinions are
recorded not only by Pope Innocentius III." but in the gloss
of the canon law itself. For this opinion was not fixed and
settled, nor as yet well understood, hut still disputed, as we
see in Lombard and Scotus ; and although they all agreed in

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