principal & interest. Thus I lost it a second time.
Still I lay my shoulder assiduously to the paiment of it
a third time. In doing this however I think yourself
will be of opinion I am authorized in justice to clear
it of every article not demandable in strict right : of
this nature I consider interest during the war.



1787] THOMAS JEFFERSON. 355

Another question is, as to the paper money I de-
posited in the treasury of Virginia towards the dis-
charge of this debt. I before observed that I had
sold lands to the amount of ^4200 before a shilling
of paper money was emitted, with a view to pay this
debt. I received this money in depreciated paper.
The state was then calling on those who owed money
to British subjects to bring it into the treasury en-
gaging to pay a like sum to the creditor at the end
of the war. I carried the identical money therefore
to the Treasury, where it was applied, as all the
money of the same description was, to the support of
the war. Subsequent events have been such that the
state cannot, & ought not to pay the same nominal
sum in gold or silver which they received in paper,
nor is it certain what they will do. My intention
being & having always been, that, whatever the
state decides, you shall receive my part of the debt
fully. I am ready to remove all difficulty arising
from this deposit, to take back to myself the demand
against the state, & to consider the deposit as
originally made for myself & not for you.

These two articles of interest & paper money being
thus settled, I would propose to divide the clear pro-
ceeds of the estate (in which there are from 80 to
100 labouring slaves) between yourself & Kippen &
Co, two thirds to you and one third to them, & that
the crop of this present year 1787 shall constitute the
first paiment. That crop you know cannot be got to
the warehouse completely till May of the next year,
& I suppose that three months more will be little



356 THE WRITINGS OF [1787

enough to send it to Europe, or to sell it in Virginia
& remit the money, so that I could not safely answer
for placing the proceeds in your hands till the month
of August, and so annually every August afterwards
till the debt shall be paid. It will always be both my
interest & my wish to get it to you as much sooner
as possible, & probably a part of it may always be
paid some months sooner. If the assigning of the
profits in general terms may seem to you too vague,
I am willing to fix the annual paiment at a sum cer-
tain, but that I may not fall short of my engagement,
I shall name it somewhat less than I suppose may be
counted on. I shall fix your part at four hundred
pounds sterling annually, and as you know our crops
of tobacco to be incertain, I should reserve a right
if they fall short one year to make it up the ensuing
one, without being supposed to have failed in my
engagement. But every other year at least all ar-
rearages shall be fully paid up.

My part of this debt of Mr. Wayles's estate being
one third, I should require that in proportion as I
pay my third, I shall stand discharged as to the other
two thirds. So that the paiment of every hundred
pounds shall discharge me as to three hundred pounds
of the undivided debt. The other gentlemen have
equal means of paying, equal desires, and more skill
in affairs. Their parts of the debt therefore are at
least as sure as mine : & my great object is, in case
of any accident to myself, to leave my family unin-
volved with any matters whatever.

I do not know what the balance of this debt is.
The last acct. current I saw was before the war,



1787] THOMAS JEFFERSON. 357

making the whole balance, principal & interest some-
where about nine thousand pounds : & after this there
were upwards of four hundred hogshead of tobacco &
some paiments in money to be credited. However this
settlement can admit of no difficulty: & in the mean
time the payments may proceed without affecting the
right of either party to have a just settlement.

Upon the whole then I propose that on your part
you relinquish the claim to interest during the war,
say from the commencement of hostilities, April 19,
1775 to their cessation April 19, 1783. being ex-
actly eight years ; and that in proportion as I pay my
third I shall be acquitted as to the other two thirds.
On my part, I take on myself the loss of the paper
money deposited in the Treasury, I agree to pay
interest previous & subsequent to the war, and oblige
myself to remit to you for that & the principal four
hundred pounds sterling annually till my third of the
whole debt shall be fully paid ; & I will begin these
paiments in August of the next year.

If you think proper to accede to these propositions,
be so good as to say so at the foot of a copy of this
letter. On my receipt of that I will send you an
acknowledgement of it, which shall render this pres-
ent letter obligatory on me. In which case you may
count on my faithful execution of this undertaking.



TO EDWARD CARRINGTON. 1 J. MSS.

PARIS, Jan. 16, 1787.

DEAR SIR, Uncertain whether you might be at
New York at the moment of Colo. Franks's arrival, I

1 See vol. iv., page 265.



358 THE WRITINGS OF [1787

have inclosed my private letters for Virginia under
cover to our delegation in general, which otherwise I
would have taken the liberty to inclose particularly
to you, as best acquainted with the situation of the
persons to whom they are addressed. Should this
find you at New York, I will still ask your attention
to them. The two large packages addressed to Colo.
N. Lewis contain seeds, not valuable enough to pay
passage, but which I would wish to be sent by the
stage, or any similar quick conveyance. The letters
to Colo. Lewis & Mr. Eppes (who take care of my
affairs) are particularly interesting to me. The pack-
age for Colo. Richd. Cary our judge of Admiralty
near Hampton, contains seeds & roots, not to be sent
by Post. Whether they had better go by the stage,
or by water, you will be the best judge. I beg your
pardon for giving you this trouble. But my situation
& your goodness will I hope excuse it. In my letter
to Mr. Jay, I have mentioned the meeting of the
Notables appointed for the 2gth inst. It is now put
off to the 7th or 8th of next month. This event,
which will hardly excite any attention in America, is
deemed here the most important one which has taken
place in their civil line during the present century.
Some promise their country great things from it,
some nothing. Our friend de La Fayette was placed
on the list originally. Afterwards his name disap-
peared ; but finally was reinstated. This shews that
his character here is not considered as an indifferent
one; and that it excites agitation. His education in
our school has drawn on him a very jealous eye from
a court whose principles are the most absolute des-



1787] THOMAS JEFFERSON. 359 >"

potism. But I hope he has nearly passed his crisis.
The King, who is a good man, is favorably disposed
towards him : & he is supported by powerful family
connections, & by the public good will. He is the
youngest man of the Notables except one whose
office placed him on the list.

The Count de Vergennes has within these ten
days had a very severe attack of what is deemed an
unfixed gout. He has been well enough however to
do business to-day. But anxieties for him are not
yet quieted. He is a great & good minister, and an
accident to him might endanger the peace of Europe.

The tumults in America, I expected would have
produced in Europe an unfavorable opinion of our
political state. But it has not. On the contrary, the
small effect of these tumults seems to have given
more confidence in the firmness of our governments.
The interposition of the people themselves on the
side of government has had a great effect on the
opinion here. I am persuaded myself that the good
sense of the people will always be found to be the
best army. They may be led astray for a moment,
but will soon correct themselves. The people are the
only censors of their governors : and even their errors
will tend to keep these to the true principles of their
institution. To punish these errors too severely
would be to suppress the only safeguard of the public
liberty. The way to prevent these irregular inter-
positions of the people is to give them full informa-
tion of their affairs thro' the channel of the public
papers, & to contrive that those papers should pene- \
trate the whole mass of the people. The basis of our /



360 THE WRITINGS OF [1787

governments being the opinion of the people, the
very first object should be to keep that right ; and
were it left to me to decide whether we should have
a government without newspapers or newspapers
without a government, I should not hesitate a moment
to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every
man should receive those papers & be capable of
reading them. I am convinced that those societies
\ (as the Indians) which live without government enjoy
- in their general mass an infinitely greater degree of
i happiness than those who live under the European
/ governments. Among the former, public opinion is
in the place of law, & restrains morals as powerfully
; as laws ever did anywhere. Among the latter, under
: pretence of governing they have divided their nations
into two classes, wolves & sheep. I do not exag-
gerate. This is a true picture of Europe. Cherish
therefore the spirit of our people, and keep alive their
attention. Do not be too severe upon their errors,
but reclaim them by enlightening them. If once they
become inattentive to the public affairs, you & I, &
Congress & Assemblies, judges & governors shall all
become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general
nature, in spite of individual exceptions ; and ex-
perience declares that man is the only animal which
devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term
to the governments of Europe, and to the general
prey of the rich on the poor. The want of news has
led me into disquisition instead of narration, forget-
ting you have every day enough of that. I shall be
happy to hear from you sometimes, only observing



1787] THOMAS JEFFERSON. 361

that whatever passes thro' the post is read, & that
when you write what should be read by myself only,
you must be so good as to confide your letter to some
passenger or officer of the packet. I will ask your
permission to write to you sometimes, and to assure
you of the esteem & respect with which I have honour
to be Dear Sir your most obedient & most humble servt.



TO JAMES MADISON. 1 j. MSS.

PARIS, Jan 30, 1787.

DEAR SIR, My last to you was of the i6th of
Dec, since which I have received yours of Nov 25, &
Dec 4, which afforded me, as your letters always do,
a treat on matters public, individual & ceconomical.
I am impatient to learn your sentiments on the late
troubles in the Eastern states. So far as I have yet
seen, they do not appear to threaten serious conse-
quences. Those states have suffered by the stoppage
of the channels of their commerce, which have not
yet found other issues. This must render money
scarce, and make the people uneasy. This uneasiness
has produced acts absolutely unjustifiable ; but I hope
they will provoke no severities from their govern-
ments. A consciousness of those in power that their
administration of the public affairs has been honest,
may perhaps produce too great a degree of indigna-
tion : and those characters wherein fear predominates
over hope may apprehend too much from these in-

1 In this letter, Jefferson employs a cipher of the same kind (numerals) as
that already used in his previous letters to Madison, but changed entirely in its
detail. A third change was later made, to which attention will be called in the
proper place.



362 THE WRITINGS OF [1787

stances of irregularity. They may conclude too
hastily that nature has formed man insusceptible of
any other government but that of force, a conclusion
not founded in truth, nor experience. Societies exist
j under three forms sufficiently distinguishable. i.
) Without government, as among our Indians. 2.
s Under governments wherein the will of every one
) has a just influence, as is the case in England in a
\ slight degree, and in our states, in a great one. 3.
Under governments of force : as is the case in all
other monarchies and in most of the other republics.
To have an idea of the curse of existence under these
last, they must be seen. It is a government of wolves
over sheep. It is a problem, not clear in my mind,
that the ist condition is not the best. But I believe
it to be inconsistent with any great degree of popula-
tion. The second state has a great deal of good in
it. The mass of mankind under that enjoys a precious
degree of liberty & happiness. It has it's evils too :
the principal of which is the turbulence to which it is
subject. But weigh this against the oppressions of
monarchy, and it becomes nothing. Malo periculosam
libertatem quant quietam servitutem. Even this evil
is productive of good. It prevents the degeneracy of
government, and nourishes a general attention to the
public affairs. I hold it that a little rebellion now
} and then is a good thing, & as necessary in the poli-
(tical world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful
< rebellions indeed generally establish the encroach-
ments on the rights of the people which have pro-
duced them. An observation of this truth should



1787! THOMAS JEFFERSON. 363

render honest republican governors so mild in their
punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them
too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound
health of government. If these transactions give me
no uneasiness, I feel very differently at another piece
of intelligence, to wit, the possibility that the naviga-
tion of the Mississippi may be abandoned to Spain.
I never had any interest Westward of the Alleghaney ;
& I never will have any. But I have had great op-
portunities of knowing the character of the people
who inhabit that country. And I will venture to say
that the act which abandons the navigation of the
Mississippi is an act of separation between the East-
ern & Western country. It is a relinquishment of
five parts out of eight of the territory of the United
States, an abandonment of the fairest subject for the
paiment of our public debts, & the chaining those debts
on our own necks in perpetuum. I have the utmost
confidence in the honest intentions of those who con-
cur in this measure ; but I lament their want of
acquaintance with the character & physical advan-
tages of the people who, right or wrong, will suppose
their interests sacrificed on this occasion to the con-
trary interests of that part of the confederacy in pos-
session of present power. If they declare themselves
a separate people, we are incapable of a single effort
to retain them. Our citizens can never be induced,
either as militia or as souldiers, to go there to cut the
throats of their own brothers & sons, or rather to be
themselves the subjects instead of the perpetrators
of the parricide. Nor would that country requite the



364 THE WRITINGS OF [1787

cost of being retained against the will of it's inhabi-
tants, could it be done. But it cannot be done. They
are able already to rescue the navigation of the Mis-
sissippi out of the hands of Spain, & to add New
Orleans to their own territory. They will be joined
by the inhabitants of Louisiana. This will bring on
a war between them & Spain ; and that will produce
the question with us whether it will not be worth our
while to become parties with them in the war, in
order to reunite them with us, & thus correct our
error ? & were I to permit my forebodings to go one
step further, I should predict that the inhabitants of
the U S would force their rulers to take the affirma-
tive of that question. I wish I may be mistaken in
all these opinions.

We have for some time expected that the Chevalier
de la Luzerne would obtain a promotion in the diplo-
matic line, by being appointed to some of the courts
where this country keeps an ambassador. But none
of the vacancies taking place which had been counted
on, I think the present disposition is to require his
return to his station in America. He told me himself
lately, that he should return in the spring. I have
never pressed this matter on the court, tho' I knew it
to be desirable and desired on our part ; because if
the compulsion on him to return had been the work
of Congress, he would have returned in such ill tem-
per with them, as to disappoint them in the good they
expected from it. He would forever have laid at
their door his failure of promotion. I did not press
it for another reason, which is that I have great



1 7 87] THOMAS JEFFERSON. 365

reason to believe that the character of the Count de
Moustier, who would go were the Chevalier to be
otherwise provided for, would give the most perfect
satisfaction in America.

As you are now returned into Congress it will
become of importance that you should form a just
estimate of certain public characters : on which
therefore I will give you such notes as my knolege
of them has furnished me with. You will com-
pare them with the materials you are otherwise
possessed of, and decide on a view of the whole.
Mr. Carmichael, is, I think, very little known in
America. I never saw kirn, & while I was in Con-
gress I formed rather a disadvantageous idea of him.
His letters, received then, showed him vain, & more
attentive to ceremony & etiquette than we suppose
men of sense should be. / have now a constant corre-
spondence with him, and find him a little hypochondriac
and discontented. He possesses very good understand-
ing, tho' not of the first order. I have had great
opportunities of searching into his character, and have
availed myself of them. Many persons of different
nations, coming from Madrid to Paris, all speak of
him as in high esteem, & / think it certain that he has
more of the Count de Florida Blancas friendship,
than any diplomatic character at that court. As long
as this minister is in office, Carmichael can do more
than any other person who could be sent there. You
will see Franks, and doubtless he will be asking some
appointment. I wish there may be any one for which
he is fit. He is light, indiscreet, active, honest, affec-



366 THE WRITINGS OF [1787

tionate. Tho' Bingham is not in diplomatic office,
yet as he wishes to be so, I will mention such circum-
stances of kirn, as you might otherwise be deceived in.
He will make you believe he was on the most intimate
footing with the first characters in Eiirope, & versed
in the secrets of every cabinet. Not a word of this is
true. He had a rage for being presented to great
men, & had no modesty in the methods by which he
could if he attained acquaintance. Afterwards it was
with such 90 who were susceptible of impression from
the beauty of his wife. I must except the Marquis
de Bonclearren who had been an old acquaintance.
The Marquis de La Fayette is a most valuable
auxiliary to me. His zeal is unbounded, & his weight
with those in power, great. His education having
been merely military, commerce was an unknown field
to him. But his good sense enabling him to compre-
hend perfectly whatever is explained to him, his agency
has been very efficacious. He has a great deal of
sound genius, is well remarked by the King, & rising
in popularity. He has nothing against him, but the
suspicion of republican principles. I think he will
one day be of the ministry. His foible is, a canine
appetite for popularity and fame ; but he will get
above this. The Count de Vergennes is ill. The pos-
sibility of his recovery, renders it dangerous for its to
express a doubt of it : but he is in danger. He is a
great minister in European affairs, but has very im-
perfect ideas of our institutions, and no confidence in
them. His devotion to the principles of pure despot-
ism, renders him unaffectionate to our governments.



1787] THOMAS JEFFERSON. 367

But his fear of England makes him value us as a make
weigJit. He is cool, reserved in political conversations,
but free and familiar on other subjects, and a very
attentive, agreeable person to do business with. It is
impossible to have a clearer, better organized head ;
but age has chilled his heart. Nothing should be
spared, on our part, to attach this country to us. It
is the only one on which we can rely for support,
under every event. Its inhabitants love us more, I
think, than they do any other nation on earth. This
is very much the effect of the good dispositions
with which the French officers returned. In a former
letter, I mentioned to you the dislocation of my wrist.
I can make not the least use of it, except for the
single article of writing, though it is going on five
months since the accident happened. I have great
anxieties, lest I should never recover any consider-
able use of it. I shall, by the advice of my surgeons,
set out in a fortnight for the waters of Aix, in Pro-
vence. I chose these out of several they proposed to
me, because if they fail to be effectual, my journey
will not be useless altogether. It will give me an
opportunity of examining the canal of Languedoc,
and of acquiring knowledge of that species of naviga-
tion, which may be useful hereafter ; but more imme-
diately, it will enable me to make the tour of the
ports concerned in commerce with us, to examine, on
the spot, the defects of the late regulations respecting
our commerce, to learn the further improvements
which may be made in it, and on my return, to get
this business finished. I shall be absent between



368 THE WRITINGS OF [1787

two and three months, unless anything happens to
recall me here sooner, which may always be effected
in ten days, in whatever part of my route I may be.
In speaking of characters, I omitted those of Reyneval
and Hennin, the two eyes of Count de Vergennes.
The former is the most important character, because
possessing the most of the confidence of the Count.
He is rather cunning than wise, his views of things
being neither great nor liberal. He governs himself
\sy principles which he has learnedly rote, and isyf/
only for the details of execiition. His heart is sus-
ceptible of little passions but not of good ones. He is
brother-in-law to M. Gerard, from whom he received
disadvantageous impressions of us, which cannot be
effaced. He has much duplicity. Hennin is a phi-
losopher, sincere, friendly, liberal, learned, beloved by
everybody ; the other by nobody. I think it a great
misfortune that the United States are in the depart-
ment of Reformer. As particulars of this kind may
be useful to you, in your present situation, I may
hereafter continue the chapter. I know it will be
safely lodged in your discretion.

Feb. 5. Since writing thus far, Franks is returned
from England. I learn that Mr. Adams desires to
be recalled, & that Smith should be appointed charge
des affaires there. It is not for me to decide whether
any diplomatic character should be kept at a court,
which keeps none with us. You can judge of Smiths
abilities by his letters. They are not of the first
order, but they wrz. good. For his honesty, he is like
our friend Monroe ; turn his soul wrong side out-



1787] THOMAS JEFFERSON. 369

wards, and there is not a speck on it. He has one
foible, an excessive inflammability of temper, but he
feels it when it comes on, and has resolution enough
to suppress it, and to remain silent till it passes over.
I send you by Colo. Franks, your pocket telescope,
walking stick & chemical box. The two former could
not be combined together. The latter could not be
had in the form you referred to. Having a great
desire to have a portable copying machine, & being
satisfied from some experiments that the principle of
the large machine might be applied in a small one, I
planned one when in England & had it made. It
answers perfectly. I have since set a workman to
making them here, & they are in such demand that
he has his hands full. Being assured that you will
be pleased to have one, when you shall have tried it's
convenience, I send you one by Colo. Franks. The
machine costs 96 livres, the appendages 24 livres, and
I send you paper & ink for 12 livres ; in all 132 livres.
There is a printed paper of directions ; but you must