U /VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT PROGRAMS ADMINIS-
\^ TERED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR, THE
EFFECT OF H.R. 4050, THE REEMPLOYMENT
ACT OF 1994 AND THE VETS PROGRAM
Y 4. V 64/3; 103-52 _^^_^^
Veterans' Enploynent Prograns fldnin... _^ ^^
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BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
EDUCATION, TRAINING AND EMPLOYMENT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
JUNE 15, 1994
Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
Serial No. 103-52
84-812 CC WASHINGTON : 1995 ^^tyin,
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE ^o
For sale by the U.S. Government Printing Office
Superintendent of Document.s. Congressional Sales Office. Washington, DC 20402
ISBN 0-16-047018-8
\ /VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT PROGRAMS ADMINIS-
TERED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR, THE
EFTECT OF H.R. 4050, THE REEMPLOYMENT
ACT OF 1994 AND THE VETS PROGRAM
Y 4. V 64/3: 103-52 =^—^^=^
Veterans' Enploynent Prograns fidnin... j^-rf.j^^
iKlNG
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
EDUCATION, TRAINING AND EMPLOYMENT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
JUNE 15, 1994
Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
Serial No. 103-52
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
84-«12 CC WASHINGTON : 1995 ^'♦C^*
For sale by the U.S. Govemment Printing Office
Superintendent of Documents. Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 20402
ISBN 0-16-047018-8
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS
G.V. (SONNY) MONTGOMERY, Mississippi, Chairman
DON EDWARDS, California
DOUGLAS APPLEGATE, Ohio
LANE EVANS, lUinois
TIMOTHY J. PENNY, Minnesota
J. ROY ROWLAND, Georgia
JIM SLATTERY, Kansas
JOSEPH P. KENNEDY, II, Massachusetts
GEORGE E. SANGMEISTER, Illinois
JILL L. LONG, Indiana
CHET EDWARDS, Texas
MAXINE WATERS, California
BOB CLEMENT, Tennessee
BOB FILNER, California
FRANK TEJEDA, Texas
LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, lUinois
SCOTTY BAESLER, Kentucky
SANFORD BISHOP, Georgia
JAMES E. CLYBURN, South Carolina
MIKE KREIDLER, Washington
CORRINE BROWN, Florida
BOB STUMP, Arizona
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
DAN BURTON, Indiana
MICHAEL BILIRAKIS, Florida
THOMAS J. RIDGE, Pennsylvania
FLOYD SPENCE, South Carolina
TIM HUTCHINSON, Arkansas
TERRY EVERETT, Alabama
STEVE BUYER, Indiana
JACK QUINN, New York
SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama
JOHN LINDER, Georgia
CLIFF STEARNS, Florida
PETER T. KING, New York
Mack G. Fleming, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION, TRAINING AND EMPLOYMENT
G.V. (SONNY) MONTGOMERY, Mississippi, Chairman
TIMOTHY J. PENNY, Minnesota TIM HUTCHINSON, Arkansas
JAMES E. CLYBURN, South Carolina BOB STUMP, Arizona
J. ROY ROWLAND, Georgia THOMAS J. RIDGE, Pennsylvania
JIM SLATTERY, Kansas JACK QUINN, New York
BOB CLEMENT, Tennessee
i?^
(II)
CONTENTS
Page
OPENING STATEMENTS
Chairman Montgomery 1
Hon. Tim Hutchinson 3
WITNESSES
Drach, Ronald W., National Employment Director, Disabled American
Veterans 11
Prepared statement of Mr. Drach, with attached letter, 26
Glenn, Brenda, Chair, Economic Affairs Committee, Vietnam Veterans of
America 13
Prepared statement of Ms. Glenn 36
Taylor, Jr., Hon. Preston M., Assistant Secretary of Labor for Veterans'
Emplojonent and Training, accompanied by Charles Martinez, California
State Director, Veterans' Employment and Training Service; William Bolls,
Regional Administrator, Atlanta, Veterans' Employment and Training Serv-
ice; Ronald Bachman, Regional Administrator, Denver, Veterans' Employ-
ment and Training Service; Robert Meyer, Regional Administrator, Kaiisas
City, Veterans' Emplo5Tnent and Training Service; Lester Williams, Re-
gional Administrator, Dallas, Veterans' Employment and Training Service .. 2
Prepared statement of Mr. Taylor 19
MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Statements:
The American Legion 44
Non Commissioned Officers Association of the U.S 48
Interstate Conference of Employment Security Agencies 55
Center for the Study of Veterans in Society 67
South Carolina Employment Security Commission 7*7
Written committee questions and their responses:
Chairman Montgomery to Department of Labor 83
Chairman Montgomery to Disabled American Veterans 100
Chairman Montgomery to Vietnam Veterans of America 103
(III)
VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT PROGRAMS ADMIN-
ISTERED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR,
THE EFFECT OF H.R. 4050, THE REEMPLOY-
MENT ACT OF 1994 AND THE VETS
PROGRAM
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 15, 1994
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Education,
Training and Employment,
Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 9 a.m., in room 340,
Cannon House Office Building, Hon. G.V. (Sonny) Montgomery
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Montgomery, Penny, and Hutchinson.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MONTGOMERY
Mr. Montgomery. The subcommittee will come to order.
The Subcommittee on Education, Training and Employment is
meeting this morning to review the implementation and effective-
ness of the programs administered by the Department of Labor
which provide employment and training opportunities for our veter-
ans. Included in this review will be chapter 41 and sections 4211,
4212, and 4213 of title 38. Additionally, the subcommittee wants to
discuss the effect of H.R. 4050, the Reemployment Act of 1994 on
veterans' employment and training programs. Finally, we want to
know what policy, procedural, and structural changes the Veterans'
Employment and Training Service is considering.
Tim Hutchinson will be here in a few minutes, and when he is,
I will recognize him. But I believe I will go ahead and introduce
our first witness. We will be having some votes around 10 o'clock.
Our first witness this morning is the Honorable Preston Taylor,
Jr., the Assistant Secretary of Labor for Veterans' Employment and
Training. It is good to see you again so soon. General Taylor. You
have several people with you, and I will leave it to you to introduce
them. Please feel fi*ee to begin, and we welcome you to the hearing.
(1)
STATEMENT OF HON. PRESTON M. TAYLOR, JR., ASSISTANT
SECRETARY OF LABOR FOR VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND
TRAINING, ACCOMPAMED BY CHARLES MARTINEZ, CALI-
FORNIA STATE DIRECTOR, VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND
TRAINING SERVICE; WILLIAM BOLLS, REGIONAL ADMINIS-
TRATOR, ATLANTA, VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAIN-
ING SERVICE; RONALD BACHMAN, REGIONAL ADMINIS-
TRATOR, DENVER, VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING
SERVICE; ROBERT MEYER, REGIONAL ADMINISTRATOR,
KANSAS CITY, VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING
SERVICE; LESTER WILLIAMS, REGIONAL ADMINISTRATOR,
DALLAS, VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING SERVICE
Mr. Taylor. Good morning, General.
Mr. Chairman, and Members of the subcommittee, thank you for
the opportunity to discuss the genesis of what may be the most sig-
nificant change to occur in the Veterans' Emplo3anent and Training
Service since its inception in 1983; namely, VETS' reinvention.
VETS has just completed the first phase of its multiphase
reinvention process: The comprehensive reevaluation of each major
VETS program and of the VETS organization itself.
I am pleased to be able to introduce to you this morning the
Chairmen of the five ad hoc teams involved in this process who are
largely responsible for directing these very intense, thorough re-
view efforts over the past nine months. The teams they have led
have produced the various products discussed in my testimony and
the related reinvention documentation, which I ask to submit for
the record.
Mr. Montgomery. Without objection.
Mr. Taylor. They are Charlie Martinez, chairman of the transi-
tion assistance program team and VETS State director in Califor-
nia; Bill Bolls, chairman of the team which examined the disabled
veterans' outreach program and local veterans' representative pro-
gram. Bill is regional administrator in Atlanta; Ron Bachman, re-
gional administrator in Denver; Lester Williams, chairman of the
Job Training Partnership Act, Title IV C team; and our regional
administrator in Dallas; Bob Meyer, chairman of the customer sur-
vey and employer participation team and VETS regional adminis-
trator in Kansas City.
From the outset of this process, we knew that such a profound
occasion would require a constant focus on the needs of our cus-
tomers, veterans, employers and VETS's own staff, and the full
participation of all VETS employees. Bringing the collective efforts
and the imagination of all VETS' staff to the reinvention effort re-
quired that the system of change be highly visible, open, and invit-
ing, providing VETS' staff" with fi-equent opportunities to have a
voice in the evolution of the changes being considered.
The composition of all the ad hoc teams reflect a wide cross-sec-
tion of agency personnel. Each team is largely comprised of field
staff. Collectively, the number of participants is estimated to be 15
percent of VETS's entire work force.
In addition, each of the ad hoc teams has had a job service rep-
resentative assigned for liaison by ICESA. Representatives fi*om
the Departments of Veterans' Affairs, Defense, and fi*om our sister
agency, ETA, have also participated on appropriate teams.
Throughout the Hfe of these ad hoc teams, the agency has mam-
tained regular and frequent consultation with relevant parties out-
side of VETS. A series of extensive briefings and discussions have
been conducted by VETS' staff over the past several months with
Majority and Minority Veterans Affairs' committee staff in both the
House and the Senate, the veterans' service organizations and
Interstate Conference of Employment Security Agencies. The prod-
ucts of these efforts are currently under review by the VETS'
reinvention team, a management-labor partnership that serves in
an advice and consent capacity. In addition, implementation of
many of the committee's recommendations would be contingent
upon legislative action to change current statutory mandates.
In closing, I want you to know that I am pleased with the high
quality, thoroughness, and vision demonstrated by each of these
teams. I would be happy to answer any questions that you might
have and discuss any details of interest to you regarding VETS'
reinvention process.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Taylor appears on p. 19.]
Mr. Montgomery. Thank you very much. General. The chair
would like to recognize the Ranking Minority Member, Mr. Hutch-
inson from Arkansas.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. TIM HUTCHINSON
Mr. Hutchinson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I apologize to
the panel for my tardiness and thank you for your indulgence.
I would like to thank you, the chairman, for calling this sub-
committee meeting to receive testimony on both the Reemployment
Act of 1994 and the internal restructuring of the Veterans' Employ-
ment and Training Service.
After reviewing the statements of both the veterans' service orga-
nizations that are testifying today, I have a number of concerns
that this legislation may not adequately address the employment
needs of veterans. The policies and programs to increase opportuni-
ties to obtain employment, job training, counseling, and job place-
ment services must be implemented that specifically meet the spe-
cial employment needs of our countr^s veterans.
Let me first say that I appreciate Secretary Taylor's report and
have been following the department's efforts closely. As Mr. Taylor
indicated in his testimony, the staff has been kept informed of this
process of reinventing the way the program is structured and
administered.
There are still concerns about the department's history in han-
dling the program, specifically with respect to the advisory commit-
tee on veterans' employment and training, which I understand has
been in existence for 3 years, even before I was elected to Congress,
and yet this committee has failed to hold a single meeting.
Many of the issues are issues that should rightfully be discussed
by this advisory committee. I hope that we will be assured that the
department's plans to reinvent comprehensive services will include
improvements in the benefits to our countr5^s veterans. I hope that
we will have some of those concerns addressed.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Montgomery. Thank you.
General Taylor, the bottom line is to try to find jobs for vetersins.
Am I correct in that?
Mr, Taylor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Montgomery. Tell me very briefly how you help veterans
get jobs.
Mr. Taylor. Well, Chairman Montgomery, I was confirmed in
November and started to work in December, and one of the first
things I wanted to learn was the history of the organization. And
I asked that I be given success stories for fiscal 1993. And I was
given a whole litany of success stories, many of which surprised
me.
But just to highlight a few of those stories, in fiscal 1993, the
agency through its grant programs found 562,000 jobs for veterans.
I have asked my senior people to do better in fiscal 1994 and they
have assured me that we will probably exceed the 562,000 jobs that
were found in fiscal 1993.
Through our transitional assistance program, TAP, we went on
to approximately 200 military bases in the United States and we
trained in three-day seminars 145,000 young men and women and
their spouses who were about to leave the military in how to write
a resume, how to do planning, how to take interviews, and VA ben-
efits. And we expect that we will do at least 145,000 or more in
fiscal 1994.
We were able to help 4,000 homeless veterans into jobs. We re-
solved approximately 1,500 veterans' reemployment rights cases all
in fiscal 1993.
Having reviewed those success stories, I am convinced that the
veterans' employment and training agency within the Department
of Labor is a viable and very valuable agency which provides a sig-
nificant contribution to helping our veterans in this country. Our
reinvention efforts are aimed at our customers. Our customers are
our veterans and prospective employers. We are becoming a very
customer-focused agency. Those were the marching orders that I
gave the persons who headed up the reinvention teams; keep the
customer in mind at all times.
Mr. MoNTGrOMERY. Do you contract with a private firm to do TAP
training on some of these bases?
Mr. Taylor. The workload in TAP is extremely large, and we
currently don't have enough Federal or State grantee staff to hold
all of the seminars. We held 3,400 seminars in fiscal year 1993, but
because our resources were limited, we had to contract for
facilitators to help us reach that 145,000 people that I just men-
tioned.
Mr. Montgomery. I don't have any problem with contracting
out. Tell other ways your department helps a veteran get a job.
Mr. Taylor. We provide grants to every State in the job service
areas to fund State employees that are known as DVOPs, disabled
veterans' outreach program specialists, and LVERs, local veterans'
employment representatives, these people are dedicated to helping
veterans that walk in or come to us through outreach programs.
Mr. Montgomery. He is in heaven now, but Bill Natcher really
helped us with DVOP funding. I went to see him and he put addi-
tional money in for them. What is the situation now for DVOP
funding?
Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir. In fiscal 1993, we were not fiiUy funded for
all of the DVOPs that were authorized by the statutory formula.
The number of LVERs is a constant number at 1,600. This Friday
we will be submitting our budget for fiscal 1996, and we will be
asking for full funding for DVOPs and LVERs. If this occurs, it will
be the first time it has happened in 4 years. We are very hopeful
because of the kind of emphasis that is being placed on veterans'
services in the Department of Labor.
By the way, Secretary Reich has been extremely supportive of
the VETS. When he was told about the success stories for fiscal
1996, he immediately sent a memorandum down to me highlighting
some of those successes and congratulating everybody that worked
in VETS on the accomplishments of fiscal 1993. So I feel very hope-
ful and confident that we will get full funding for DVOPs in fiscal
1996.
Mr. Montgomery. Before yielding to Mr. Hutchinson, if you see
any changes that you can make in your department to make it
work better, and save the taxpayers money and get veterans jobs,
don't hesitate to ask us if you need legislation to do this. Maybe
we can't do it this year, but that is one the problems we have in
government. Nobody wants to change the system, so we just drift
along. That is where we have gotten in trouble here.
Mr. Taylor. Well, it is my position, sir, that in order to be a via-
ble organization we have to anticipate the needs of our customers.
We have looked at our own processes with the intent of improving
those processes. Perhaps even being innovative. We have to provide
quality services; excellent services to our customers.
It is our aim now in the agency to delight our customers, both
the external customers, the veterans and the employers, and our
own internal customers, our employees. We are going to be break-
ing new ground. The sun is shining in the organization. During
this entire reinvention process, we opened the doors, we came up
to the Hill, we talked to the Minority and Majority staffers. We in-
vited the veterans' service organizations in and we invited ICESA
in and we went to 0MB and briefed them on ever3^hing that we
were considering.
I would like to emphasize the word "considering." All of the prod-
ucts of the reinvention teams are nothing more than recommenda-
tions that have to go through our reinvention team before any of
them will be implemented. So everything that has been done so far
is strictly a recommendation. We have not done any implementa-
tion at this point and we will not without consulting with the Con-
gress and with the VSOs.
Mr. Montgomery. I don't have any problem if you can improve
the service. Mr. Hutchinson.
Mr. Hutchinson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Regarding the DVOP and LVER issue, the DAV and the WA,
both expressed concerns that the waiver authority in the proposed
Reemployment Act would allow the elimination of VETS' DVOP
and LVER positions. How would DVOP LVER positions fit into the
Reemployment Act? What kind of assurances can you give to us
that they will not face
Mr. Taylor. Mr. Hutchinson, I have talked extensively with rep-
resentatives fi-om ETA and those out of the congressional office
over in the Department of Labor about the impacts that the REA
1994 might have on veterans. I have had my own staff look at this
legislation and I am convinced that once one-stop career centers —
that is the key of the REA as far as we are concerned — are estab-
lished in various States — and it will be on a voluntary basis — the
States can opt to implement or not implement the one-stop-shop
concept. However, in the case of the DVOP and the one-stop-shop,
that individual will be free to do the kinds of things that DVOPs
were designed to do regarding outreach to our disabled veterans'
community and help them.
The LVERs will be right there in the one-stop-shop on a continu-
ous basis, and so there will be no elimination of DVOPs or LVERs.
I think one of the biggest concerns is, will the local employment
supervisor ask for a waiver to allow DVOPs or LVERs to work with
nonveterans. And I have been assured that the Secretary of Labor
will make no waiver approval without consultation with the Assist-
ant Secretary of Labor for veterans' employment and training, and
my advice, as his principal advisor on veterans' programming, will
be not to issue such a waiver.
Mr, Hutchinson. But you are saying that the purpose of that
waiver is to allow that kuid of flexibility so that DVOP or LVER
personnel could be diverted from exclusively working with veter-
ans' issues to something else?
Mr. Taylor. It is a hypothetical kind of question.
Mr. Hutchinson. Well, a waiver has to be for something.
Mr. Taylor. We don't know if waivers will even be requested. If
a waiver is requested, the Secretary will not issue that waiver
without consulting with me and I will advise him not to issue the
waiver so that DVOPs and LVERs will continue to be dedicated to
working with veterans.
Mr. Hutchinson. I guess with that explanation I don't see the
need for the waiver. I don't know why that is being proposed, if you
£ire telling us that you are not going to use it.
Mr. Taylor. Well, Mr. Hutchinson, the REA and the so-called
'Svaiver authority" does not simply apply just to my agency, it ap-
plies to all agencies within the Department of Labor so all other
Assistant Secretaries would be in the same position that I am. If
some waiver is asked in one of their areas, I would assume that
the Secretary of Labor would go also to those principal advisors
and ask them for their advice.
Mr. Hutchinson. I imderstand. It would seem, though, that in
the drafting of the proposed legislation that there could be some
kind of assurance put in that it is not the intention to use the
waivers to begin to diminish and to dilute the services provided to
our veterans.
Mr. Taylor. Well, I have just had a note put in front of me from
one of the representatives of ETA which states that we can't waive
the basic purpose of the statute that authorizes the DVOP and
LVER programs. Instead, the REA is designed to allow administra-
tive flexibility.
My advice to Secretary Reich will always be not to grant a waiv-
er to allow a DVOP or LVER to work with a nonveteran.
Mr. Hutchinson. Mr. Taylor, does the proposed Reemployment
Act define as dislocated workers the veterans who are voluntarily
or involuntarily separated in the drawdown? Because there has
been concern that the veterans have not been so defined who are
facing the drawdown and as a result have really not clearly been
given the benefit of being defined as dislocated workers.
Mr. Taylor. It is my understanding that those who are leaving
the service will be considered displaced workers.
Mr. Montgomery. The chair would like to yield to the former
Chair of this subcommittee, Tim Penny of Minnesota.
Mr. Penny. Thank you. I hope you are enjo3ring your job.
Mr. Taylor. It is a great job. I am working for veterans.
Mr. Penny. I noticed in your discussion of the reinvention of your
program and services that you have indicated the possible need to
reduce the number of regional offices and you indicated you needed
legislative authority to accomplish that. Would you elaborate a bit
more as to what your plan would be and what the number of re-
gional offices ought to be under your reorganization plan?
Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir, Mr. Penny. I would like to preface my re-
marks in that regard by stating again that all of the work that has
been done — and the work has been excellent — by the ad hoc com-
mittees, are recommendations. And these recommendations must
go through the reinvention team, which is a union/management
partnership. And then they have the opportunity then to comment
on the ad hoc team's recommendations prior to those recommenda-
tions coming to me. So at this point in time, I cannot tell you
whether we are recommending 4 regions or 6 regions or whether
we will remain with 10 regions. But we will go through an in-depth
and thorough analysis of the recommendations.
If, for example, we need to change the number of regions to
streamline and ensure better services to our veterans then, yes, we
will come to Congress and ask Congress for legislation to help us
with that.
Mr. I*enny, You are not at the point yet — how long will it be be-
fore you go through this process and reach a final determination?
Mr. Taylor. The products are in the hands of the reinvention
team now.
Mr. Penny. Okay.
Mr. Taylor. And I expect within the next few weeks that they
will be giving me their comments and possibly within the next cou-
ple of months
Mr. Penny. So you could be looking at a request before the end
of this session with the intent of moving a bill before we adjourn?
Mr. Taylor. Yes, hopefully, sir.
Mr. Penny. That gives you the ability to be in this process in the
next fiscal year, which I think would be helpfiil.
Mr. Taylor. I have advised the senior staff" and those that are
on the teams that this is a very important matter. But we will give
it the kind of consideration and analysis that it deserves.
Mr. Penny. You talk about a 10 to 12 percent work force
drawdown.
Mr. Taylor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Penny. How much of that is going to impact on frontline