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Combating domestic terrorism : hearing before the Subcommittee on Crime of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, One Hundred Fourth Congress, first session, May 3, 1995 online

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COMBATING DOMESTIC TERRORISM



Y 4. J 89/1:104/52

Conbating Donestic Terrorisn; Seria...

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIAEY
HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION



MAY 3, 1995



Serial No. 52



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Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary



U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1996



For sale by the U.S. Government Printing Office

Superintendent of Documents, Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 20402

ISBN 0-16-052603-5



COMBATING DOMESTIC TERRORISM



Y 4. J 89/1:104/52

Conbating Donestic Terrorisn. Seria. ..

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIAKY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION



MAY 3, 1995



Serial No. 52




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Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary



U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1996



For sale by the U.S. Government Printing Office

Superintendent of Documents. Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 20402

ISBN 0-16-052603-5



COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY



HENRY J. HYDE, Illinois, Chairman



CARLOS J. MOORHEAD, California
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR.,

Wisconsin
BILL McCOLLUM, Florida
GEORGE W. GEKAS, Pennsylvania
HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
LAMAR SMITH, Texas
STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico
ELTON GALLEGLY, California
CHARLES T CANADY, Florida
BOB INGLIS, South Carolina
BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia
STEPHEN E. BUYER, Indiana
MARTIN R. HOKE, Ohio
SONNY BONO, California
FRED HEINEMAN, North Carolina
ED BRYANT, Tennessee
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
MICHAEL PATRICK FLANAGAN, Illinois
BOB BARR, Georgia



JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan
PATRICIA SCHROEDER, Colorado
BARNEY FRANK, Massachusetts
CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York
HOWARD L. BERMAN, California
RICK BOUCHER, Virginia
JOHN BRYANT, Texas
JACK REED, Rhode Island
JERROLD NADLER, New York
ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia
MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina
XAVIER BECERRA, California
JOSE E. SERRANO, New York
ZOE LOFGREN, California
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas



ALAN F. Coffey, Jr., General Counsel/ Staff Director
JUUAN Epstein, Minority Staff Director



Subcommittee on Crime



BILL McCOLLUM, Florida, Chairman

STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York

ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia



STEPHEN E. BUYER, Indiana
HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
FRED HEINEMAN, North Carolina
ED BRYANT, Tennessee
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
BOB BARR, Georgia



ZOE LOFGREN, California
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina



Paul J. McNulty, Chief Counsel

Glenn R. Schmitt, Counsel

Daniel J. Bryant, Assistant Counsel

Tom Diaz, Minority Counsel



(II)



CONTENTS



HEARING DATE



Page
May 3, 1995 1

OPENING STATEMENT

McCollum, Hon. Bill, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida,

and chairman. Subcommittee on Crime 1

WITNESSES

Baker, William M., former Assistant Director, Criminal Investigation Divi-
sion, Federal Bureau of Investigation 98

Barr, William P., former Attorney General, U.S. Department of Justice 53

Freeh, Louis J., Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation 12

Glasser, Ira, executive director, American Civil Liberties Union 93

Gorelick, Jamie S., Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice 7

Halpem, Thomas, associate director. Fact Finding Department, Anti-Defama-
tion League 88

Smith, Brent L., professor and chairman. Department of Criminal Justice,

University of Alabama 101

Terwilliger, George J., Ill, former Deputy Attorney General, Department

of Justice 63

Webster, William H., former Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and

former Director, Central Intelligence Agency 59

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

Baker, William M., former Assistant Director, Criminal Investigation Divi-
sion, Federal Bureau of Investigation: Prepared statement 100

Freeh, Louis J., Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation:

Information concerning thefl of military explosives 31

Prepared statement 15

Glasser, Ira, executive director, American Civil Liberties Union: Prepared

statement 98

Gorelick, Jamie S., Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice: Pre-
pared statement 10

Halpern, Thomas, associate director, Fact Finding Department, Anti-Defama-
tion League: Prepared statement 91

Jackson Lee, Hon. Sheila, a Representative in Congress from the State of
Texas: Prepared statement ^ 43

Smith, Brent L., professor and chairman, Department of Criminal Justice,

University of Alabama: Prepared statement 103

Terwilliger, George J., Ill, former Deputy Attorney General, Department

of Justice: Prepared statement 65

Webster, William H., former Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and

former Director, Central Intelligence Agency: Prepared statement 61

APPENDIX

Appendix 1. — Statement of Hon. Steve Chabot, a Representative in Congress

from the State of Ohio 131

Appendix 2. — Statement of Hon. Ed Bryant, a Representative in Congress

from the State of Tennessee 133



(III)



IV

Page

Appendix 3.— Statement of Hon. Sheila Jackson Lee, a Representative in
Congress from the State of Texas ;"V" ,v,

Appendix 4.— Statement of Ronald K. Noble, Under Secretary of the Treasury
for Enforcement • •••••••.• ,-; .•••• ^^^

Appendix 5.— Statement of Gerald H. Goldstein, president. National Assoaa-
tion of Criminal Defense Lawyers ; ■• 162

Appendix 6.— Letter dated May 1, 1995, to Daniel J. Bryant, assistant coun-
sel, Subcommittee on Crime, from Glenn Harlan Reynolds, associate profes-
sor of law. University of Tennessee, Knoxville 181



COMBATING DOMESTIC TERRORISM



WEDNESDAY, MAY 3, 1995

House of Representatives,

Subcommittee on Crime,
Committee on the Judiciary,

Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:06 a.m., in room
2141, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Bill McCollum (chair-
man of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Bill McCollum, Steven Schiff, Stephen
E. Buyer, Howard Coble, Fred Heineman, Ed Bryant of Tennessee,
Steve Chabot, Bob Barr, Charles E. Schumer, Robert C. Scott, Zoe
Lofgren, Sheila Jackson Lee, and Melvin L. Watt.
Also present: Representative Henry J. Hyde.
Staff present: Paul J. McNully, chief counsel; Glenn R. Schmitt,
counsel; Daniel J. Bryant, assistant counsel; Aerin D. Dunkle, re-
search assistant, and Tom Diaz, minority counsel.

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN McCOLLUM

Mr. McCollum. This meeting of the Subcommittee on Crime will
come to order.

Today's hearing is going to have to conclude by 12:30 for reasons
of the retreats of both the Republicans and the Democrats this
weekend, and, consequently, we have three panels that we have to
move through rather expeaitiously. I'm going to keep a very short
statement. I'm going to yield to my ranking Democrat, Mr. Schu-
mer, and we hope that we don't have any other opening state-
ments. I'm going to ask all witnesses to summarize their testimony,
and let us move to what is an extremely important hearing at this
point.

Let me begin by saying that less than one month ago in this very
room the members of this subcommittee participated in a full Judi-
ciary Committee hearing on the issue of terrorism. We discussed
the real potential of terrorism in the United States and the dev-
astating consequences of such crime. We didn't know then that in
a matter of days a peaceful and pleasant city in the heart of Amer-
ica would be forever scarred by ruthless acts of violence that we
call terrorism.

The number of lives claimed by the car bomb in Oklahoma City
is so large it overwhelms us: over 140 deaths, with still many miss-
ing, many never to be truly accounted for because of the force of
the blast. The extent of the suffering and the loss is incomprehen-
sible.

(1)



In the wake of this tragedy, there are those who would express
skepticism about congressional hearings and legislation involving
terrorism. They would dismiss such efforts as just politicians play-
ing to the public sense of fear and vulnerability. Let me be very
clear to those who hold such a view: government has an absolute
duty to protect its citizens from terrorism and all other forms of
violent crime. This chairman will not rest until he's assured that
everything within our power is done to avoid the destruction we
have witnessed in the past few weeks from ever happening again.
We will not be able to stop all senseless acts of violence, no matter
what we do, but I know for a fact that the dedicated men and
women of law enforcement have, indeed, thwarted acts of terrorism
in the past, and through the encouragement and assistance of this
Congress, they will be able to prevent even more devastation in the
future.

That brings me to another point that I've been looking forward
to making. In my view, and that of many of my colleagues, the FBI
and Federal law enforcement in general, where appropriate, must
pursue vigorously every opportunity to prevent terrorist activities
in this country. Senior officials must press hard to get the author-
ity they need to accomplish this goal. To be specific, again, this
chairman without hesitation supports the use of lawful tools, in-
cluding infiltration, to combat potential acts of terror by militia or-
ganizations or any other group that appears capable of violence like
that committed in Oklahoma.

Current investigative guidelines must be interpreted in this
light. Moreover, it must be communicated down the line to agents
in the field that the people's elected representatives stand behind
their efforts. These men and women cannot be in the position of
worrying about second-guessing and Monday morning quarterback-
ing by this Congress or by their superiors. They must aggressively
use all legal means to accomplish their mission, and that's the key:
all legal means. The steadfast support of this subcommittee is de-
fined by the rule of law, the strict adherence to law enforcement
by the Constitution and all relevant statutes. All of us in govern-
ment have a moral duty to follow the laws of the land as we seek
to insure that the public also obeys the law.

To that end, this subcommittee must take seriously its oversight
responsibility. We must not allow the backing of our Federal law
enforcement officers to become an inducement for unlawful activity.
Is this a delicate balance? Of course it is, but it is the substance
of our responsibilities.

In this vein, let me say that I intend to go forward with hearings
on alleged abuses of Federal law enforcement powers as soon as
practicable. Included will be one or more hearings on the events in
Waco, TX, in 1993. In this regard, I'll soon be sending to the De-
partment of Justice and Treasury requests for information on mat-
ters pertaining to the Waco incident. I submitted some of these re-
quests in the last Congress, but did not receive adequate response,
perhaps because of ongoing criminal prosecutions and other litiga-
tion. I hope at this point in time that those matters are cleared up
so that we can have the data we need to proceed with these hear-
ings. As soon as the subcommittee obtains from the administration
the information it needs and completes its review of such informa-



tion, we will schedule hearings for this summer or sooner to take
place at the earliest possible date on the Waco matter.

But today our focus is not on oversight, but on determining
whether law enforcement has the authority at the Federal level it
needs to protect the public from the senseless and despicable crime
that occurred last month. We will hear from our Nation's leading
law enforcement officials, past and present.

Again, we have a difficult job involving the balancing of vital in-
terests. On the one hand, we must be careful to guard the heritage
of treasured liberties with which Americans have been blessed. On
the other hand, law enforcement must have adequate investigative
and prosecutorial tools at its disposal or we will witness a repeat
of Oklahoma City.

For example, I'm very concerned that the FBI by unable to gain
evidence through electronic surveillance because of sophisticated
encryption technology used by terrorist organizations. This is one
of many problems that must be addressed. I understand that. We
have heard from you. Director Freeh, and we understand what
you've said technically on things in the past, and we're looking for-
ward to hearing again today from you.

I look forward to all of the testimony before this committee today
of you, Ms. Gorelick, and the other witnesses as well, and we will
attempt, when that is accomplished, in this Judiciary Committee
which Chairman Hyde, who has joined us this morning, chairs —
Mr. Conyers is our ranking minority member. Mr. Schumer is my
ranking minority member, and all the other members are going to
be participating in the very near future to draft a proper and ap-
propriate balanced counterterrorism bill.

I now yield to my ranking minority member, Mr. Schumer of
New York.

Mr. Schumer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, I want to commend your leadership in promptly convening
this hearing. America has no business more urgent than ridding it-
self of the ugly scourge of terrorism,. You and I have worked to-
gether for years on fighting terrorism, and I respect your leader-
ship in that fight. I look forward to working with you as we thor-
oughly examine the roots of terrorism.

I want to emphasize the words "thoroughly examine" because do-
mestic terrorism is not just a single horrible event like the bombing
at Oklahoma City. It is not just the cowardly, evil people, whoever
thev may be, who planned and carried out that heartless atrocity,
and it is not just the vicious criminal acts they committed. Terror-
ism is a frightening political illness. It is an angry eruption of ha-
tred, intolerance, and extremism.

The bombing in Oklahoma City made clear that this illness is,
unfortunately, in America a fact of life, and it will infect our society
and could destroy our culture if we do not act. We must first under-
stand domestic terrorism, and then we must ruthlessly cut it out
of our body politic. This hearing is a good start. It will help us un-
derstand the sickness of domestic terrorism, but it is only a start.
We must do more.

We must understand much better the culture in which the illness
of terrorism has thrived, the culture of militant paranoia that we
have come to know as the militia movement. Some of these militias



may be operating perfectly within the law; some very well may not
be. We don't know, but we ought to find out because it's not just
that some militias may be good and some militias may be bad.
What I find troubling is the very concept of a band of private citi-
zens organizing themselves, arming themselves with weapons of
war, and then laying plans to go to war against the Government
of all the people.

Just who do these people think they are? They're certainly not
the well-organized militia of the Constitution. Those were open,
above-board State militias more like today's National Guard than
the bands of secretive sandlot soldiers who today claim the name
of militia.

And just why should not the rest of us, the vast majority of the
American people. Democrat and Republican, conservative and lib-
eral, those of us who don't plan to take up arms against our own
homeland, why should we not speak out against the paranoid
virulence that these militias spew?

So I ask you today, Mr. Chairman, particularly in light of the
fact that you announced you're having hearings on Waco, to con-
vene additional hearings to comprehensively and thoroughly ex-
plore the so-called militias. It seems to me most Americans would
think the militias and their fellow travelers represent a greater
threat, or potential greater threat, to them than the ATF, the FBI,
and others, even if mistakes were made in those agencies.

So let's invite these self-righteous people and their self-appointed
generals up here. Let them lay out their views, their plans, and
their organizations to the American people in the full light of day.
I hope you will do that.

In the meantime, I have a message to the extremists who popu-
late the militia movement and their cheerleaders on the radical
fringe of the pro-gun crowd: America and this Congress will not be
bullied. America and this Congress will not be intimidated. We will
not be frightened into rash action by the violent terrorism that
your vituperative words have helped breed. We will instead, hope-
fully in a bipartisan way, be careful, rational, and balanced in what
we do. We will do all that's necessary and no more than is nec-
essary to stop terrorist violence, and at the end of the day we will
have preserved the rights of all Americans, all the rights of all
Americans, not just the imaginary rights proclaimed by a few para-
military paranoids.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McCoLLUM. You're quite welcome.

The gentleman from Illinois, my good committee chairman, Mr.
Hyde.

Mr. Hyde. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much,
Mr. Chairman.

On April 6 the full Judiciary Committee held a hearing on terror-
ism. At that time our focus was on the international aspects of the
terrorist threat. Among the items discussed was the administra-
tion's omnibus counterterrorism bill. Many have criticized portions
of that bill as being violative of cherished constitutional protec-
tions. Some even question the need for additional legislation to
combat the statistically-declining terrorist threat. There were ques-



tions raised about our own vulnerability in this hearing room to
terrorist attack.

The pain of Oklahoma City should quite those voices of doubt.
That bombing has reached the heart and the soul of America. Al-
most immediately hundreds of rescue workers from across the
country voluntarily flocked to that city to provide many unselfish
hands in rescue efforts. Hundreds of Americans gathered quietly
near the Murrah Building trying to do their part, however they
might, through prayers, deeds, or both. Americans throughout this
land are expressing their sorrow and solidarity with the people of
Oklahoma City in ways that are at once profound and meaningful.

Many have sought to find an explanation for the cause of that
awful act of cowardice, but there's really only one explanation for
it: diabolical individuals intent on damaging society by hurting
hundreds of innocent lives.

The administration has now proposed additional measures to
combat terrorism. We hear that law enforcement needs sweeping
new investigative authority and needs $1.5 billion of additionEii
funding for this purpose. We hear of some of our citizens who
would be willing to forfeit their constitutionally-protected freedoms
if it would help avoid any further evil such as that perpetrated in
the Murrah Building. Sacrificing freedoms is not the answer. Bat-
tles are fought to secure freedoms, not to relinquish them.

The Judiciary Committee will consider comprehensive legislation
which I will introduce that is directed at combating terrorism from
whatever source. Lest our people be concerned, strengthening our
law enforcement capabilities in this regard does not require a re-
striction of our civil liberties and constitutional protections. We're
quite capable of striking the delicate and necessary balance be-
tween our constitutional guarantees and the Grovernment's need to
secure the safety of its citizenry. The legislation will not work a
forfeiture of our citizens' cherished liberties. It will honor the vic-
tims of Oklahoma City and will attempt to diminish the possibility
of repeated terrorist attacks in the future.

That legislation will include concepts from the administration's
omnibus counterterrorism bill and from its recent additional pro-
posals, but it will also take further steps in areas where terrorism
can be more effectively confronted. My proposal may include some
of the following additional provisions, depending upon the knowl-
edge we gain from today's hearing and based on what we've
learned from the committee's April 6 hearing and the bombing in
Oklahoma:

Prohibiting the murder and assault of all current and former
Federal employees and providing the death penalty as punishment
for such crimes.

Requiring the placement of inert substances into various chemi-
cal compounds that can be converted to explosive uses.

Requiring the placement of taggants in explosive devices and
compounds to provide easier detection and tracing.

Creating a terrorism reward fund for information leading to the
arrest and conviction of individuals or groups engaged in crimes in-
volving both domestic and international terrorism.

Restricting the use, purchase, sale, and transfer of toxic sub-
stances and gases.



Denying political asylum or refugee status to alien terrorists.

Providing expedited exclusion in asylum proceedings for alien
terrorists, and returning common sense to the immigration law by
precluding the issuance of a travel visa to a member of a known
terrorist organization.

Finally, despite the awful tragedy in Oklahoma City, that catas-
trophe provides us with an opportunity to recognize the real spirit
of America and the underlying greatness of this Nation. Exhibited
in the aftermath was the frienafship and fraternity of our citizens
which, sad to say, is only typically publicized in situations of na-
tional crisis. We need to remind ourselves that such acts of per-
sonal and national virtue and heroism occur daily in this country
as Americans fulfill their obligations of citizenship through vol-
unteerism, sacrifice, and charity. We should be refreshed by the be-
nevolence of our fellow citizens whose acts of mercy are undertaken
with spontaneous dedication and profound grace whenever misfor-
tune strikes. When calamity hits, we see that this Nation is com-
prised of truly caring people whose generosity is boundless. We
should be heartened by that response and trust in what Lincoln
called "the better angels of our nature." In doing so, we can defeat
the efforts being made to define ourselves by the ravings and ac-
tions of the few evildoers in our midst.

And since the Waco event has been mentioned by some of the
members thus far, I would point out that we did, as we all know,
have a hearing, 1 day's hearing, in the previous Congress. That
was April 28, 1993, and we just found the transcript. It was never
printed. We are having it printed. So we may have that as a ref-
erence point and a background for any further hearings on this
subject.

I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McCoLLUM. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Conyers was going to make a statement, and I don't see him
present here. His statement will certainly be put into the record,
as will the statements of any of the other members of this commit-
tee, but I would very much like to proceed at this point with our
witnesses because of the time constraints involved.

And I'd like to welcome our first panel this morning today. Our
first witness is Ms. Jamie Gorelick, Deputy Attorney General of the
United States. The Deputy Attorney General, as most of us on this
subcommittee know, is the second ranking official at the Depart-
ment of Justice and the chief operating officer.

Prior to her appointment in March 1994, Ms. Gorelick served as
the Greneral Counsel of the Department of Defense. There she was
the chief legal officer responsible for advising the Secretary and
Deputy Secretary on a wide range of matters, including inter-
national and intelligence issues and investigations.

Ms. Gorelick has also spent 2 years as Assistant to the Secretary
and counselor to the Deputy Secretary of Energy. In addition to her
distinguished career in public service, Ms. (jorelick also is an expe-
rienced litigator, having spent 18 years in private practice with the
Washington, DC, law firm of Miller, Cassidy, LaRocho & Lumin.

Our second witness who has joined Ms. Gorelick at the table is
Louis Freeh, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Prior
to his nomination in 1993 by President Clinton, the Director was



a U.S. district court judge in the Southern District of New York,
where he had been appointed by former President George Bush in
1991.

Director Freeh spent the first 6 years of his career serving as an
FBI agent. In 1981, he became a Federal prosecutor in New York
City and eventually became an associate U.S. attorney. He's been
recognized on several occasions for his exemplary accomplishments,


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Online LibraryUnited States. Congress. House. Committee on the JCombating domestic terrorism : hearing before the Subcommittee on Crime of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, One Hundred Fourth Congress, first session, May 3, 1995 → online text (page 1 of 21)