United States. Congress. House. Committee on the J.

Impeachment inquiry : hearings before the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, Ninety-third Congress, second session, pursuant to H. Res. 803 ... (Volume bk. 2) online

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Online LibraryUnited States. Congress. House. Committee on the JImpeachment inquiry : hearings before the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, Ninety-third Congress, second session, pursuant to H. Res. 803 ... (Volume bk. 2) → online text (page 1 of 91)
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H. Res. 803








Book II

MAY 16-JUNE 19, 1974

41-018 WASHINGTON : 1975


For sale by the Superintendent of Document?, U.S. Government Printing Office
Wasliington, D.C. 20402 - Price $6


PETER W. RODIXO, Jr., New Jersoy. Chairman

HAROLD D. DOXOHUE, Massachusetts
DON EDWARDS, California
JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Micliigan
JOSHUA EILBERG, Pennsylvania
JEROME R. WALDIE, California
JAMES R. MANN, South Carolina
ROBERT F. DRINAN, Massachusetts

Jerome M. Zeifmax, General Counsel

Garxer J. Cline, Associate General Counsel

Alax a. Parker, Counsel

Daxiel L. Cohen, Counsel

William P. Dixon, Counsel

Ardex B. Schell, Assistant Counsel

Franklin G. Polk, Associate Counsel

Thomas E. !Mooxey, Associate Counsel

Michael W. Blommer, Associate Counsel

TRENT LOTT. Mis.slssippi



Impeachment Inquiry Staff

John Doar, Speci<il Counsel

Aldert E. Jexxer, Jr., Special Counsel to the Minority

Joseph A. Woods, Jr., Senior Associate Special Counsel

Richard Cates, Senior Associate SpC'Cial Counsel

Bernard W. Nussbaum, Senior Associate Special Counsel

Robert D. Sack, Settlor Associate Special Counsel

Robert A. Shelton, Associ^ite Special Counsel

Samuel Garrison III, Deputy Minority Counsel

Fred H. Altshuler, Counsel
Thomas Bell, Counsel
W. Paul Bishop, Counsel
Robert L. Brown, Counsel
Michael M. Conwav, Counsel
RuFUs Cormier, Special Assistant
E. Lee Dale, Counsel
John B. Davidson, Counsel
Evan A. Davis, Counsel
Constaxtine J. Gekas, Counsel
Richard H. Gill, Counsel
Dag.mar Hamilton, Counsel
David Hanes, Special Assistant
John E. Kennahan, Counsel
Terry R. Kirkpatrick, Counsel
John R. Labovitz, Counsel
liAWREXCE liUCCHiNo, Counsel
R. L. Smith McKeithen, Counsel
Alan Map>^r. Counsel

Robert P. Murphy, Counsel
James B. F. Oliphant, Counsel
Richard H. Porter. Counsel
George Rayeorn, Counsel
James Reum, Counsel
Hillary D. Rodham, Counsel
Stephen A. Sharp, Counsel
Eileen Silverstein, Counsel
Jared Stamell, Counsel
Roscoe B. Starek III, Counsel
Gary W. Sutton, Counsel
Edward S. Szukelewicz. Counsel
Robert J. Trainor, Counsel
J. Stephen Walker, Counsel
Ben a. Wallis, Jr., Counsel
William Weld, Counsel
William A. White, Counsel
John S. Whitman, Counsel





Thursday, INIav 16, 1974 703

Tuesday, May 21, 1974 771

Wednesday, May 22, 1974 803

Thursday,' May 23, 1974 S33

Wednesday, May 29, 1974 863

Thursday, May 30, 1974 901

Friday, May 31, 1974 971

Tuesday, June 4, 1974 993

Wednesday, June 5, 1974 1045

Thursday," June 6, 1974 1087

Tuesday, June 11, 1974 1153

Wednesday, June 12, 1974 1213

Thursday," June 13, 1974 1267

Tuesday, June 18, 1974 1323

Wednesday, June 19, 1974 1389




Executive Session

THURSDAY, MAY 16, 1974

House of Eepresentatives,
Committee on the Jitdiciary,

Washington, D.G.

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:09 a.m., in room 2141,
Eayburn House Office Building, Hon. Peter W. Rodino, Jr. (chair-
man) presiding.

Present: Representatives Rodino (presiding), Donoliue, brooks,
Kastenmeier, Edwards, Hungate, Conyers, Eilberg, Waldie, Flowers,
Mann, Sarbanes, Seibei-ling, Danielson, Drinan, Rangel, Jordan,
Thornton, Holtzman, Owens, Mezvinsky, Hutchinson, McClory,
Smith, Sandman, Railsback, Wiggins, Dennis, Fish, :Mayiie, Hogan,
Butler, Cohen, Lott, Froehlich, Moorhead, Maraziti, and Latta.

Impeachment inquiry stall' present: John Doar, special counsel;
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., special counsel to the minority ; Samuel Garri-
son III, deputy minority counsel : Robert A. Shelton, associate special
counsel ; Thomas Bell, counsel ; Michael M. Conway, counsel ; Evan
A. Davis, counsel ; Ben A. Wallis, Jr., counsel.

Committee staff present: Jerome M. Zeifman, general counsel;
Garner J. Cline, associate general counsel; and Franklin G. Polk,
associate counsel.

Also present: James D. St. Clair, special counsel to the President;
John A. McCahill. assistant special counsel.

jNIr. Railsback. Mr. Chairman?

The CiiAiRMAx. Mr. Railsback.

Mr. Railsback. Mr. Chairman, inasmuch as somebody is apparently
leaking to the press almost every single item we discussed yesterday,
I wonder if we should not consider going public?

The Chairman. Well, I would like to respond by stating that the
Chair lias alread}^ indicated that we Avould be considering going
public, but in this phase we will have to do as much as we possibly
can to keep the materials confidential and I think that under the rules
and under the representations that we have made to various sources, I
think that we can do no less now than to try to adhere to those rules.

Mr. Dennis. Would the gentleman yield ?

Mr. Railsback. I will l3e glad to yield in just a moment. Let me
iust say that I think it is extremely unfair to use the news media and
T have had complaints and w^hen I have been asked to make a state-
ment I think most of us, probably 99 percent of us have said w^e arc



not going to discuss the evidence. And I think it is extremely unfair
to tlie rest of the press that when the Washington Post comes out
with — somebody must have had earphones on that were attached di-
rectly to the Washington Post, I just think it is very unfair, jNIr.
Chairman. I have talked to other members, both Democrats and Re-
publicans, that agree, and I yield to my friend from Indiana.

Mr. Dennis. I thank the gentleman from Illinois for yielding. That
is a very important point I would like to make here, Mr. Chairman.
The matter that was leaked yesterday may not be very important.
But, if everybody is going to leak everything that his particular
personal conscience acquits him of, and he thinks it is all right in this
case, we are going to get in a lot of trouble and we had better just go
public because these tapes have got lots of things on them that are not
relevant to this inquiry at all.

Now, somebody is going to find something, let us say, about the
Middle East that appeals to his conscience, and thinks it ought to be in
the paper, or maybe China or Russia or something else. Are we going
to expect that whatever we get here is on the front page ? I hear talk
here inferring things about the President because he does not want to
give up these tapes. Every once in a while I get halfway convinced,
but this kind of thing proves to me that he may have doggone good
reasons, with things that have nothing to do with our inquiry, for not
giving up these tapes, because he knows any time he does somebody
is going to leak anything out that he happens to think ought to go
in the press.

Now, I think it is a very serious problem. i^

Mr. Brooks. Would the gentleman yield ?

The Chairman. Mr. Brooks.

Mr. Brooks. I think it is an unfortunate thing that any of this was
leaked. But, I would say that eventually, in candidness, all of the
relevant, necessary material that we feel is justified for any further
action would have to be released at a later date. We concede that. I
think that the release of any tapes to the committee would be under
the rules of confidentiality, which would not give all of us irrelevant
or damaging material on other subjects. I think that Mr. Hutchinson,
our chairman, their counsel, would not edit, but would certainly excise
from those tapes the matter which would be damaging or would be
irrelevant, purely and obviously irrelevant to this inquiry. And so I
think that the President would be protected to that extent and we
would not be turning those raw tapes over to the members of this
committee, who, with all due respect, might inadvcrtentlj^ release

Tlie Chairman. Mr. Waldie.

]\rr. Waldie. Mr. Chairman, I think that the matters that were
included on the tapes were, in fact, relevant, and I presume that
someone on this committee, either the chairman and the ranking
minority member, or the staff, made a preliminary assessment that
those matters were relevant. And I believe they absolutely were in
terms of the modus operandi and should liave been considered by the
committee. I would think that what we might consider, at least as a
middle ground, that we release our transcripts of every tape that the
President has released.



The President has already breached confidentiality when he released
all of the tapes, so there is no reason for us to keep our tapes
under the rule of confidentiality when they differ from the President's
tapes in material ways. I think the public is entitled to know that and
I would hope that if Ave do not go open, which I think we should, that
we, at least, Ave release those tapes and those transcripts in the areas
in Avhicli they differ from those that the President has released.

Mr. MgClory. Mr. Chairman ?

The Chairman. Mr. McClory.

JNIr. ]\I('Clory. I think that it Avas most unfortunate on the part of
the President, and on the part of the White House, to release to the
public the transcripts of the tapes Avhich Ave requested and Avhich Ave
lequested under our rules of confidentiality. And I only Avant to say
this, that if there is a disposition to deli\^er any future tapes or tran-
scripts of tapes, which I hope there will be, that these will be released
to the committee under our rules of confidentiality and not put in the
public domain.

I think the greatest damage has been done by the Avholesale release
of the 1,308 pages of transcripts, much more than the sort of incidental
things that were included yesterday which I do not think add or
subtract one iota from the transcripts that Ave have previously received.

;Mr. Seiberling. Mr. Chairman ?

The Chairman. Mr. Seiberling.

jNlr. Seiberling. As the chairman knows, I have been one of those
Avho have been pressing for an early release of the materials that we
liave been considering. But I hope, and I Avould like to point out, that
the release was made to the Post yesterday, while it was a limited
release, and one that only expanded a transcript that the President
had already released, but I would hope that my colleagues — and I am
sure it Avas a member of the committee and not the staff, because the
timing was such that it only occurred after the committee had the
tapes — I would hope that our colleagues would bear in mind that if
we have any significant breach of our rule of confidentiality that we
are just handing the President another argument as to why lie should
not release materials that Ave have subpenaed. And I AA-ould hope that
Ave Avould all exercise restraint, if only for the practical reasons.

But, I would hope also, Mr. Chairman, that Ave make an early
decision to release all of the materials except those Ave clearly decide
should remain confidential, that we haA^e considered thus far.

Mr. Matne. Mr. Chairman ?

The Chair:man. Mr. Mayne.

Mr. Mayne. Well, Mr. Chairman, I do not think that we can real-
istically absolve any possibility of this leak coming from staff when
one of the syndicated columnists is openly boasting that he has a
source on tlie inA'estigation staff' Avith AA'hom he has checked and re-
checked. For example, the stories that Avere being floated about anti-
Semitic references that appeared today in either the Post or Times,
that lie has checked Avith his source on the staff',

XoAv. this matter of confidentiality Avas a A'ory basic thing, AA'hich
it seemed to me every member or the committee and every member of
the staff' was solemnly pledged to in setting up these ground rules and
I do not think that Ave should admit that Ave are incapable of enforcing


those niles or trying to stop this outrageous, disgraceful breach, not
only of confidence but of, it seems to me, our very solemn undertaking
as to how these hearings were to proceed.

It is not a light matter, not something to try to foist off by saying
that well, the President has not been blameless in this. We have our
own responsibility to the House and to the American people, and
obviously we're not maintaining confidentiality at all, based on the
outrageous leaks of the last few days.
Mr. HuNGATE. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Mr. Hungate.

Mr. Hungate. I would join in the expression of concern over the
leaks that are occurring, although I do not suppose we want a special
unit to locate them. But, the breach of confidentiality on the part of
one person I do not think relieves the rest of us of our responsibility
to try to protect the individuals. I too, lament the fact that the Presi-
dent released this. I think there are some things in there that are dam-
aging to people that probably are not even concerned with this.

I think whoever is doing it, the newspaper men seem to know that
there are two sieves somewhere in the committee and I do not know.
Maybe I am unwittingly one. I hope not. But, I say it will be known
sometime and it is certainly lamentable, because I think the work
of this committee to this time in its bipartisan approach and its ob-
jectivity and an attempt to work as a unit, can be destroyed by this
sort of thing. And I think so far the action of this committee has
raised the standing of the committee and has raised the standing of
the Congress. And whoever is leaking, I hope they will consider it,
reconsider it seriously.

The Chairman. Mr. Hutchinson.
Mr. Hutchinson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I simply want to make this observation. Every one of us are lawyers.
And in the practice of law every one of us knows how to keep things
confidential, and I cannot understand why it is that we cannot
proceed here in a professional way and as lawyers. We know how to
keep things confidential and I think every member of the committee
should consider that he is acting professionally in this regard and to
respect the principles of his profession with regard to confidentiality.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to state that certainly we
will take under advisement all of the suggestions that have been made
and we will consider this and discuss with counsel as well some of
the problems that I think we are going to be involved in should we
go public since there are issues and questions that I think are going
to deeply affect due process of individuals and the rights of individ-
uals. And I think before we go off post haste and make any rash judg-
ment because of the unfortunate leaks, wliich are deplorable, that we
ought to seriously consider the steps which we will take from here
on in.

But, the Chair will discuss this with counsel and with the ranking
rJe]Miblican member and I think come back and see what the com-
mittee is disposed to do.

But, I would. I would hope, and I would urge very seriously that
notwithstanding tliis leak. I think that there are ways that we can
sort of plug the holes, and if each member feels so concerned and so


anxious to insure against leaks, we could relinquish the books at the
end of the evenino;, and the transcripts and leave them with the secu-
rity where they have been up until now, and no leaks had occurred,
and this is notwithstandino; the fact that Mr. Hutchinson and myself,
and Mr. Jenner and Mr. Doar, have been privy to all of these conver-
sations. And not reflecting on anyone, at no time prior to this has
anything ever leaked out. So, it seems to me that if we were to leave
these books, these transcripts under the security under which they
have been, the members are given a presentation, and I think they are
given ample opportunity, if they want to review the materials, that
have l)een presented, in a summary fashion, and I think it would help
a great deal. I think we would have to weigh the inconveniences we
are going to suffer against the wrongs we are going to do and the
injustices that we might unfortunately I think bring about.

But, that is a matter for the committee. I know that I am seriously
distressed over what has taken place.

Mr. Latta. ^Ir. Chairman ?

Mr. CoiiEX. Mr. Chairman?

The Chairmax. Mr. Cohen.

Mr. Cohen. On another issue, I am concerned about getting through
all of this material as well, and I would Avonder if the committee, the
Chair could possibly keep us in session and so we could make a state-
ment, during quorum calls, for example, when we have been breaking
and when the bells are ringing and I would just like to know if we
could act as a committee so that we do not feel compelled to go over
and answer these quorums and make these statements back to our
districts about the fact that it will affect our attendance record or Avhat-
ever. I would like if we could possibly have some unanimity among
the committee members.

The Chairman. I do not think there is an objection. All we need
to do to keep on with the hearing is have a quorum of 10. Some of us
may stay on, if there is no objection on the part of the members. Of
course some of the members will feel that they are going to be

Mr. Dennis. Mr. Chairman?

The Chairman. I am sorry, I did not understand. I must have mis-
understood your suggestion.

J\Ir. Cohen. All I was suggesting is we stay, we continue in session
even though there is a quorum call on. So, if we could either get some-
thing by way of the Speaker or some sort of an announcement that we
are present, we're conclucting business but we do not have to keep inter-
rupting by going over there.

Mr. Dennis. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. Danielson. Mr. Chairman ?

Tlie Chairman. Mr. Danielson.

Mr. Danielson. Mr. Chairman, I would like to join Mr. Cohen's
suggestion. I think it is just a charade for us to be running over to the
floor and indicating our presence and then running back here. If some-
how or other the congressional record could reflect the fact that we are
here so that there would be some official record that we are not out in
California or someplace.

Mr. Brooks. Would the gentleman yield ?


Mr. Danielsox. It miirlit save a lot of time.

Mr. Brooks. "Would the <2(Mitleman 3'ield ?

^h\ Daxielsox. Oh yes. I yield.

]Mr. Brooks. I am afraid that there is no ^\ ;iy. It makes sense, it is
practical, we can justify it in this instance. The public would under-
stand it. The Congress Mould understand it. But, the rules do not
permit in any way an absolution from being theie. "We cannot beat that
rap. And I realize the quorum calls probably should be amended, and
the rules that the House is considering may ultimately change that
requirement for quorums.

^Ir. ConEX. I am not suggesting we change the rules but simply that
we act as a body and stay here and not break up witli people going
in and out.

Mr, Brooks. I understand. But, they will never allow that.

Mr. Flowers. Mr. Chairman?

The CiiAiRMAx. Mr. Flowers.

Mr. Flowers. I am afraid we have been reading our own press clip-
pings. You know, there are other committees in the Congress too that
consider their work important. We are not the only committee in the
Congress and we are not the only one tliat has important lousiness.
This is of course tlie most important but I just cannot think we are
entitled to any special treatment on this and it would be downright
foolish for us to ask for it.

The Chairmax. I am sure that there could be no modification of
the rules, nor could the Speaker absolve us in any way. I think we
would have to proceed, and every individual member would have to
make a judgment as to whether he wants to attend the quorum call
or not.

Mr. Edvv'Ards. Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman ?

The Chairmax. Why don't we conclude at 10:30 since there is a
great, great deal of material that has to be presented. And I anticipate
that we are going to be working rather late this evening.

]Mr. Edwards. Mr. Chairman, may I make an observation?

The Chairmax. Mr. Edwards.

Mr. Edwards. Is it not true that at the end of every day such as
today, where we have executive sessions, that the Chairman. IMr. Doar,
Mr, Jenner and ]\fr. Hutchinson have a news conference in which an
attempt, in good faith, is made to release to the public as much infor-
mation as is appropriate ? Is that not correct ?

The Chair:max. That is correct.

]\Ir. Edwards. "Well, I think that is a very good excuse for all of the
members to remember that that is sort of an official release that is
given on behalf of all of us and so when members are besieged by tlie
media, it is a very excellent way out.

The Chairmax. The Chair, as a matter of fact, has been endeavor-
ing now to try to summarize as well as we can the presentation to the
media and the press after the daj^'s hearings have been concluded what
was presented, Avhat we can possibly present, and the Chair has been
endeavoring to get that material read}'' so that each individual member
would also Iiave an op])ortunity to know what tlie sunuiiary is all
about, even before it is made public.

]\rr. Latta. Mr. Chairman?

The Chairmax. Mr. Latta.

Mr. Latta, Mr, Chairman, I am glad to hear you say that you are


going to take this matter of going public under advisement. And wliile
you are thinking about it, I would wish that you would think about
separating the grand jury testimony from the testimony that was
given to the Senate tliat is already public. Certainly Ave could go public
liere on matters about oh, I would say about 75 or 80 percent of every-
thing that we have heard to date and I think that we would be doing
the public a service and ourselves a service so that they would not
think that we are coming into something new every day here, when
we are just having a rehash of what was or already has been before
the public in the Senate.

So, I think that you could make, when you are pondering this mat-
ter, you could make a good decision about saying we are going to go
public on the matters that have already been public, and that would
take care of about 80 percent of it.

Mr. Dexnis. Mr. Chairman?

The Chairman. JNIr. Dennis.

Mr. Dennis. ISIr. Chairman, 3'ou made one suggestion a moment ago
which I hope we will give a lot of thought to before we adopt it.
That is this idea of adopting a rule that we have to leave these books
here. Now, I will obey any rule we adopt, but there is a lot of material
to go over here. I like to study it and I am sure that other members do.
And personally, I think it would be an awful concession of failure here
to suggest that because somebody on this committee just cannot avoid
talking to newspapermen about everything he reads that nobody else
on the committee can be allowed to study his work. I hope that we
Avill not be reduced to that.

The Chairman. Well, the chair merely made a suggestion, made
two suggestions in that direction. One, that we leave the books and the
transcripts and the other that we leave the transcripts.

Now, there are going to be a number of tapes which will be listened
to and there will be transcripts that will accompany the listening of
those tapes. And I think that would certainly be a simple way too,
because that material is the material that I supposed is of greatest in-
terest. But nonetheless, as I stated before, there are matters that I
think are going to create some problems, and I think we have an obli-
gation to the court, we have an obligation to the committees of the Con-
gress that have developed a great deal of this information in executive
session, which they have not seen fit by committee vote to yet make
public, and these are matters I think that we would have to take up

Online LibraryUnited States. Congress. House. Committee on the JImpeachment inquiry : hearings before the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, Ninety-third Congress, second session, pursuant to H. Res. 803 ... (Volume bk. 2) → online text (page 1 of 91)