United States. Congress. House. Committee on the J.

Members' forum on immigration : hearing before the Subcommittee on Immigration and Claims of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, One Hundred Fourth Congress, first session, May 24, 1995 online

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MEMBERS' FORUM ON IMMIGRATION

Y 4. J 89/1:104/45

Benbers' Forun on Innigrationi Seri...

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON
IMMIGRATION AND CLAIMS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION



MAY 24, 1995



Serial No. 45 '""*^'>" ^..



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Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary



U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
22-095 WASHINGTON : 1996



For sale by the U.S. Government Printing Office

Superintendent of Documents, Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 20402

ISBN 0-16-052496-2



^\ MEMBERS' FORUM ON IMMIGRATION

r - ^— — ^^^^— — ^^
Y 4. J 89/1:104/45

nenbers' Forun on Innigrationi Seri...

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON
IMMIGRATION AND CLAIMS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIAEY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION



MAY 24, 1995


45




Serial No.


■"■CO,. ^,

^^y09,S96



Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary



U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
22-095 WASHINGTON : 1996

For sale by the U.S. Government Printing Office

Superintendent of Documents, Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 20402

ISBN 0-16-052496-2



COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

HENRY J. HYDE, Illinois, Chairman



CARLOS J. MOORHEAD, California
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.,

Wisconsin
BILL McCOLLUM, Florida
GEORGE W. GEKAS, Pennsylvania
HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
LAMAR SMITH, Texas
STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico
ELTON GALLEGLY, CaUfornia
CHARLES T. CANADY, Florida
BOB INGLIS, South CaroUna
BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia
STEPHEN E. BUYER, Indiana
MARTIN R. HOKE, Ohio
SONNY BONO, Cahfornia
FRED HEINEMAN, North CaroUna
ED BRYANT, Tennessee
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
MICHAEL PATRICK FLANAGAN, Illinois
BOB BARR, Georgia

Alan F. Coffey, Jr., General Counsel/ Staff Director
Julian Epstein, Minority Staff Director



JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan
PATRICL\ SCHROEDER, Colorado
BARNEY FRANK, Massachusetts
CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York
HOWARD L. BERMAN, Cahfornia
RICK BOUCHER, Virginia
JOHN BRYANT, Texas
JACK REED, Rhode Island
JERROLD NADLER, New York
ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia
MELVIN L. WATT, North Carohna
XAVIER BECERRA, Cahfornia
JOSE E. SERRANO, New York
ZOE LOFGREN, Cahfornia
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas



Subcommittee on Immigration and Claims

LAMAR SMITH, Texas, Chairman
ELTON GALLEGLY, Cahfornia JOHN BRYANT, Texas

CARLOS J. MOORHEAD, California BARNEY FRANK, Massachusetts

BILL McCOLLUM, Florida CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York

SONNY BONO, Cahfornia HOWARD L. BERMAN, Cahfornia

FRED HEINEMAN, North Carolina XAVIER BECERRA, California

ED BRYANT, Tennessee

CoRDiA A. Strom, Chief Counsel

Edward R. Grant, Counsel

George Fishman, Assistant Counsel

Paul Drolet, Minority Counsel



(II)



CONTENTS



HEARING DATE



Page

May 24, 1995 1

OPENING STATEMENT

Smith, Hon. Lamar, a Representative in Congress from the State of Texas,
and chairman, Subcommittee on Immigration and Claims 1

WITNESSES

Beilenson, Hon. Anthony C, a Representative in Congress from the State

of California 50

BUbray, Hon. Brian P., a Representative in Congress from the State of

California 12

Clark, Dan, San Diego, CA 36

Coleman, Hon. Ronald D., a Representative in Congress from tJie State of

Texas 66

Filner, Hon. Bob, a Representative in Congress from the State of California ... 61

Foley, Hon. Mark, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida 24

Gross, Hon. Porter J., a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida .. 27
Hutchinson, Hon. Y. Tim, a Representative in Congress from the State of

Arkansas 64

Kim, Hon. Jay, a Representative in Congress from the State of California 29

Lofgren, Hon. Zoe, a Representative in Congress from the State of California . 8

Martini, Hon. William J., a Representative in Congress from the State of

New Jersey 20

Mink, Hon. Patsy T., a Representative in Congress from the State of Hawaii .. 45
Molinari, Hon. Susan, a Representative in Congress from the State of New

York 37

Packard, Hon. Ronald, a Representative in Congress from the State of CaUfor-

nia 5

Pickett, Hon. Owen B., a Representative in Congress from the State of Vir-
ginia 42

Rohrabacher, Hon. Dana, a Representative in Congress from the State of

CaUfomia 17

Seastrand, Hon. Andrea H., a Representative in Congress from the State

of California 55

Torres, Hon. Esteban Edward, a Representative in Congress from the State

of California 58

Underwood, Hon. Robert A., a Delegate in Congress from the Territory of

Guam 32

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

Beilenson, Hon. Anthony C, a Representative in Congress from the State

of California: Prepared statement 52

Bilbray, Hon. Brian P., a Representative in Congress from the State of

California: Prepared statement 13

Coleman, Hon. Ronald D., a Representative in Congress from the State of

Texas: Prepared statement 68

Foley, Hon. Mark, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida:

Prepared statement 26

Goss, Hon. Porter J., a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida:

Prepared statement 29

(UI)



IV

Page

Hutchinson, Hon. Y. Tim, a Representative in Congress from the State of
Arkansas: Prepared statement '■ 65

Kim, Hon. Jay, a Representative in Congress from the State of Cahfomia:
Prepared statement 31

Lofgren, Hon. Zoe, a Representative in Congress from the State of California:
Prepared statement 9

Martini, Hon. WiUiam J., a Representative in Congress from the State of
New Jersey: Prepared statement 22

Mink, Hon. Patsy T., a Representative in Congress from the State of Hawaii:
Prepared statement 47

Molinari, Hon. Susan, a Representative in Congress from the State of New
York: Prepared statement 39

Packard, Hon. Ronald, a Representative in Congress from the State of Califor-
nia: Prepared statement 6

Pickett, Hon. Owen B., a Representative in Congress from the State of Vir-
ginia: Prepared statement 44

Rohrabacher, Hon. Dana, a Representative in Congress from the State of
California: Prepared statement 19

Seastrand, Hon. Andrea H., a Representative in Congress from the State
of California: Prepared statement 57

Torres, Hon. Esteban Edward, a Representative in Congress from the State
of California: Prepared statement 60

Underwood, Hon. Robert A., a Delegate in Congress from the Territory of
Guam: Prepared statement , 33

APPENDIXES

Appendix 1. — Statement of Hon. Henry Bonilla, a Representative in Congress
from the State of Texas 75

Appendix 2. — Statement of Hon. Solomon P. Ortiz, a Representative in Con-
gress from the State of Texas 76

Appendix 3. — Statement of Hon. Marge Roukema, a Representative in Con-
gress from the State of New Jersey 82

Appendix 4. — Statement of Hon. Bob Stump, a Representative in Congress
from the State of Arizona 83



MEMBERS' FORUM ON IMMIGRATION



WEDNESDAY, MAY 24, 1995

House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Immigration and Claims,

Committee on the Judiciary,

Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 1:37 p.m., in room
2226, Raybum House Office Building, Hon. Lamar Smith (chair-
man of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Lamar Smith, Sonny Bono, Fred
Heineman, Ed Bryant of Tennessee, and Xavier Becerra.

Also present: George Fishman, assistant counsel; Judy Knott,
secretary; and Paul Drolet, minority counsel.

OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN SMITH

Mr. Smith. The Subcommittee on Immigration and Claims will
come to order. I certainly appreciate the interest by Members, as
well as by everyone else in the room today. Let me give a special
welcome to Gail Neels and her students from the Potomac School,
who I think are in the back two rows of the room today. I have a
special interest in them having a good view of immigration policy,
since I have two children enrolled in the school.

Immigration is a subject that I think all of us have come to rec-
ognize as a subject that really is on the tip of the tongue of many
people in the United States. I know of few other issues that so di-
rectly impact as many people and perhaps every member of our so-
ciety as does immigration, and more specifically, the subject of im-
migration reform.

This meeting today sort of continues our ongoing conversation
about the subject, through of course today we are going to do more
listening than talking because we are eager to hear what our col-
leagues in Congress have to say.

As far as the subject of immigration itself goes — is that a vote
that has just been called? Unfortunately, we had a vote just called.
We will need to recess for it in just a minute and return. But on
the subject of immigration, I was just going to recount for you an
indication of why I think immigration is not only such an impor-
tant issue, but also why it is important to so many people.

This last weekend I held a couple of town meetings in my dis-
trict. I was in St. Angelo, TX, which is in part of west Texas. I
talked about all that was going on in Congress today. I talked
about balancing the budget. I talked about controversial subjects
like Medicare. When I finished, I opened up the town meeting for
questions from 150 constituents who were attending. For the next

(1)



hour and a half, I tried to answer those questions. It so happened
that the subject I was asked about most, and I would go so far as
to say the total questions on this subject equaled the questions on
every other subject, was immigration, and particularly, immigra-
tion reform.

I even learned about the subject beyond what occurred during
the official town meeting itself, because after the town meeting was
over, a young woman came forward who had not spoken and not
asked any questions before, and said, "I need to talk to you." It
turns out, this 23-year-old woman who had just graduated from col-
lege a year or two before had in fact lost a job that she wanted to
someone who she understood was not in this country legally. As a
result, she took a job that paid minimum wage, less than she
would have earned otherwise.

When you hear stories like that, and when you hear the great
number of questions from constituents as I have, you realize that
immigration is truly a very national issue, and an issue of great
import to a lot of people.

Today we have Members of Congress who are going to testify as
to their particular interests and their particular concerns. I really
consider this to be a star witness list, both because of the individ-
uals themselves and the interest and expertise that they bring to
bear on this subject and also because of the great variety of indi-
viduals. We have lawmakers from Guam to Florida, so we literally
do encompass a great part of the world, and we have lawmakers
who represent virtually every part of the country.

So I expect today's hearing to be very informative for all of us
who are members of the subcommittee. As I say, we're eager to do
more listening than talking today. I might also say this subcommit-
tee intends to consider a major immigration reform bill, I trust
next month, as soon as possible.

So with tiiat, I'll recognize other Members for their opening com-
ments. I understand that Mr. Becerra of California does have some
opening remarks to make.

Mr. Becerra. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I do. I want to thank
you for making this forum for Members of Congress available to ex-
press their thoughts and ideas on the issue of immigration. Obvi-
ously if we will have comprehensive immigration proposals before
us this year for the President's signature, it is important to make
sure that we hear as fully and as thoughtfully as we can from the
other Members of the Congress. So I appreciate the fact that you
can make this time available.

As a member of this subcommittee, I will try to keep my remarks
brief, although I could easily sit at the table and provide some tes-
timony as a member witness. But let me just add a few things that
I have said in the past in this subcommittee.

Let me begin with a story that is less than, well it's about 15
hours old now. I just returned from Los Angeles. In dropping off
my rental car at the agency, I happened to encounter a worker
there who was a Guatemalan immigrant. Because I was very
rushed, I was able to get a ride from the agency employee to the
airport. He mentioned to me that he had been in this country for
a little bit more than 4 years. The first words to come out of his
mouth after saying he had been here for a little more than 4 years.



that he was very anxious and just awaiting the day when he could
actually submit the papers to become a U.S. citizen.

I asked him if that meant that he was enjoying the fruits of
America as we hoped he would always be able to. He said, "Well,
I must tell you, life here is perhaps even harder for me than it was
in my native country of Guatemala, but I will not return. I know
that I will not return because I know that prospects for me in the
future and for my children are much better here than in Guate-
mala. For that reason, I intend to stay and become a full-fledged
member of this country."

I was very impressed by his remarks because I suspect he was
making perhaps that minimum wage that we so much talk about
on the floor of the Congress. I understand that this is something
that a lot of folks must live with, a lot of immigrants must live
with. So to see in him, in his eyes, the expectations, the dreams
of a future in this country, even though he admitted that the times
were very harsh for him right now, to me is a sign that this is still
the beacon for freedom and for people who wish to live in peace in
this world.

With that said, let me go on to say a couple of things. Last ses-
sion when the whole issue of immigration became very hot, we con-
stantly heard people say, well, we must be very aggressive and
very hard on undocumented immigration, though we can be sup-
portive and preserve legal immigration. To some degree, I agree
with that statement, to the degree that we are trying to be aggres-
sive, yet thoughtful in our approach to the undocumented immigra-
tion issue, I think that is fine. But once we go beyond that, and
we start attacking human beings, especially children, I think we go
beyond the realms of being not only a civilized society, but one that
is responsible, working with foresight.

I would hope that we continue an aggressive approach on the
border, as we have seen the President undertake, modernizing
equipment, providing for professional and trained personnel at our
border to enforce our immigration laws at the border.

I would also hope that we provide the adequate resources that
are needed for some of the other proposals that we see underway.
For example, the telephone verification system within the employ-
ment setting, which is a way to try to track down those who are
not eligible to work, and may also be ineligible to be in this coun-
try. I would hope that we understand that there are privacy con-
cerns and discrimination concerns that we must address. Without
adequate resources, there is no way we will ever do a decent job
of having a TVS system that works.

I look back to the days when my parents first came to this coun-
try. I recall the tough times they had, much like this Guatemalan
immigrant that I spoke to yesterday evening. My father worked
very hard all his life. He never, as I have said in the past, he never
earned more than perhaps $20,000 or $23,000, even though he
worked tremendous hours. He now pays a price with having hands
that he cannot open fully. He walks with a limp because of prob-
lems he has with both legs. All because he was a laborer for about
45 years of his life.

Now he would never give up a moment of that because he did
what he tried so hard to do along with my mother. That is, to pro-



vide a much better future for his children. He has four children
who went on to college and in some cases, went on to accomplish
some very good things.

But I take a look at the situation for legal immigrants and I
must say, I lament the situation for those who have come here le-
gally and are trying to do everything they can to not only be like
my father and my mother, but like the Guatemalan immigrant that
I met yesterday.

I would hope that as we try to reform our system of immigration,
we undertake a thoughtful analysis that will take into account the
fact that immigrants for so long have been the makers of this coun-
try. I would just point out that as we have heard from the Council
of Economic Advisers during the reign of former President Greorge
Bush, immigrants are considered to provide longrun benefits that
ultimately exceed by a great deal, their shortrun costs. Those are
precise words from the Council of Economic Advisers back in 1990.

We also understand from surveys and research that has been
done that the labor force participation rates, in other words, those
seeking to build jobs, those seelang to be employed, those rates of
participation in the labor force are highest for immigrants than
they are even for the native population.

Home ownership. Fannie Mae tells us that immigrants have
higher rates of home buying rates than the native population.

In education, a very insightful survey was done by a professor by
the name of David Hayes Baldista at UCLA's School of Public
Health. It found that immigrants by the third generation are grad-
uating from high school at three times the rate of their grand-
parents. Their graduation rates from high school are quadruple the
rates of their grandparents. So what we see is in essence, a tripling
or quadrupling of the rates of success for these children of immi-
grants.

I need not say much about the whole issue of international trade.
We know how that important it has become. I would only stress
that as well look to reform immigration when it addresses the legal
immigrant, we make sure that we do not abandon our policy of
family reunification.

Finally, let me close with one final thought on legal immigrants.
We have close to 9 to 10 million people who are in this country who
are legally here, who have every right to be here because they fol-
lowed every process. They have abided by every law. They pay
every single tax. They even have defended this country in time of
war. I would just say that as we go about reforming legal immigra-
tion, we remember that these are people who wish to become U.S.
citizens and have the right to once they fulfill their time here.

I would hope that we do not abandon them, especially now when
we find that they are having to wait 1 to 2 years after they have
submitted their application to become citizens, because the backlog
is so great. We must also address the issue of naturalization, as we
address the issue of legal immigration. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Smith. Mr. Becerra, that was a pretty comprehensive open-
ing statement. I appreciate what you said. As you know, we'll con-
tinue our conversation on all those subjects in the next few weeks.



We'll need to recess for about 15 minutes while we go vote. We'll
return. When we do return, I think Congressman Ron Packard of
California will be the first Member to testify.

[Recess.]

Mr. Smith. The Subcommittee on Immigration will reconvene.
Let me say we expect some other members back in just a minute.
I just finished talking to Mr. John Bryant, the ranking minority
member. Unfortunately he has a markup of a bill to which he is
offering amendments in the Commerce Committee, so he will be
joining us later this afternoon.

Our first witness today is Ron Packard of California. Ron, if
you'll come forward. We are looking forward to hearing from you,
and appreciate the fact that you came early. I'm sorry for that vote
that we both had to go to.

STATEMENT OF HON. RON PACKARD, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

Mr. Packard. I appreciate very much, Mr. Chairman, the chance
to testify before your committee, and certainly appreciate your gra-
ciousness in letting me kick off this hearing. It is extremely impor-
tant. I don't think there's an area of the country that is more im-
pacted by illegal immigration than San Diego County. That of
course is where my district is, primarily, and for as long as I have
served in Congress, illegal immigration has been perhaps the domi-
nant issue in my district.

I have presented three particular bills as part of a package this
year, in fact, the very first day of this session, in an effort to try
to solve some of the problems that exist in our area and in the
country relative to illegal immigration.

In reference to Mr. Becerra's comments, I do not address legal
immigration. I am only addressing the problems that exist in my
area, which is primarily illegal immigration.

In my package, I have addressed three particular prongs in an
effort to try to stem the problem that exists for us in southern Cali-
fornia. I don't need to give you figures. I think you have all the fig-
ures relative to the importance of this issue. Needless to say, it is
estimated that 1.7 million illegal immigrants reside in California,
which represents about 43 percent of the entire illegal population
of this country. So we are truly impacted. In fact, San Diego Coun-
ty represents the bulk of that 43 percent and all of southern Cali-
fornia, the bulk of the 1.7 million. I would estimate that that's a
very modest figure. It could be much more than that, because they
certainly can't reliably count them all. They are out there in the
hills, and simply are not able to be contacted by a census.

The three-pronged approach that I have taken is number one,
very simply asking that your committee increase and beef up the
Border Patrol up to 10,000 agents over a period of 5 years. Incre-
mentally increase the Border Patrol to a strength of 10,000 agents.
That is what has been called for by studies. Concentrating our re-
sources at the border, I think, is our most effective means of stem-
ming the tide of illegal crossings.

That of course leads me to my second point and piece of legisla-
tion. That is, to concentrate our resources at the border. I have a
bill that would close the checkpoints that are about 60 miles north



of the border, two of them in my district. I believe that they should
be closed and that the personnel, the equipment, and the assets
and the money be transferred to our effort at the border. We think
that it would be more effective if we can stop the trend and the
tide of crossing the border illegally. If that happens we think that
the checkpoints become redundant, and perhaps not necessary.

I am aware that the INS feels that that's a second line of de-
fense. But the way they are operated, it is simply not an effective
second line of defense. They are only operated part time, and with
walkie-talkies, people can coordinate their efforts in crossing or
passing the checkpoints at a time when they are not operating.
Frankly, the costs of operating the checkpoints, I think, and the
personnel, could be better used at the border itself.

The third part of my three-pronged approach is in keeping with
proposition 187 that passed overwhelmingly in California, and
transferring that concept to the Federal level. That simply is that
we would cut off all social programs and benefits to illegal immi-
grants except, of course, for emergency needs, emergency health
care and emergency housing, et cetera. But otherwise, that we do
not pay out of taxpayer dollars, for the social services and social
needs of those that have come into our country illegally. We are
short in those programs. We simply do not have enough funds to
service all of the American citizens in those programs. To take from
that short supply of moneys to service those that have broken our
laws to come into the country we think is not the use of the tax-
payers' dollars that our taxpayers feel good about. Certainly that
is reflected in the vote in California with proposition 187.

Those three items are extremely important to me. You will hear
from other members later on today, I believe, that will outline some
other problems. But those are the three that I have been con-
centrating on. I would deeply appreciate your help in this commit-
tee to see if we can develop a legislative strategy, a reform bill that
will address these particular points.

In closing, I want to thank you very much for the opportunity to
speak and testify before your committee. I certainly appreciate the
work you are doing on immigration reform.

[The prepared statement of Mr. Packard follows:]


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