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Baltic States investigation. [First interim report] (Volume pt. 1) online

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me to the cell.

Mr. McTiGUE. Were you permitted to go to sleep ?

Mr. LuDiG. According to the rules of the prison you were not sup-
posed to sleep during the day even if you had been interrogated the
whole night through.

Mr. McTiGtiE. Did the guards see that you didn't sleep ?

Mr. Ltjdig. There were apparently special instructions for the
guards to see that no people would sleep, especially the people who
were under interrogation for the preceding night.

Mr. McTiGUE. If the guard saw you asleep, he would come in

Mr. LuDiG. Threatening all kinds of disciplinary measures. Of
course, that was accompanied by cursing.

Mr. McTiGUE. You were questioned all night long and you weren't
permitted to sleep during the day ?

Mr. LuDiG. No, sir.

Mr. McTiGUE. How long did this go on?

Mr. LuDiG. Well, I didn't keep count of any days, but the question-
ing went on for approximately 6 weeks, I would say.

Mr. McTiGUE. Night in and night out you were given the same
treatment, first the softening up room, the closet, then to the interro-
gation room?

Mr. LuDiG. That is right.

Mr. McTiGUE. During this period of 6 weeks did the interrogation
take a general course or were you asked about certain specifics ?

Mr. LuDiG. After 5 or 6 nights when we had finished with my life
story, the interrogating judge told me he was in a position to tell me
what I was accused of. He told me I was accused of being a British


Mr. McTiGUE. Did he tell you

Mr. LuDiG. I realize I am under oath so I may as well say I have
been an ordinary, average citizen. I have never been engaged in any
spy activities and I never thought of getting involved in spy activities.

Mr. McTiGUE. The fact that you had served in the consular service
and were on duty at one time in Leningrad or St. Petersburg, I sup-
pose made you more suspect ?

Mr. LuDiG. That made my record bad, of course.

Mr. McTiGUE. During the course of the interrogation, after you
had been told of the charge that you were a British spy, did they ques-
tion you along any lines concerning any incidents which they thought
might verify the charge ?

Mr. Ltjdig. My first reaction to the charge was — I said I was no spy
and that I would appreciate if they gave me some proofs or some
kind of evidence of what made them think I was a spy.

The answer to that was, "It is up to you to prove you are not a
spy." It was not the task of the accusing authorities to prove I was
guilty. , , . .

Mr. McTiGUE. During the course of this interrogation, was any
incident related to you which they felt pointed to the fact that you
were a British spy ?

Mr. Lttdicx. The main fact that supported this accusation seemed to
be the general fact that I had been abroad many times. That fact
seemed to be more or less sufficient to accuse a person of being a spy.


There were also simply stupid incidents. When I was arrested all
my desks were searched. All my papers, all correspondence was taken

There were some humorous incidents. One night the investigating
judge hurled a question at me, asking me while I was living in Eng-
land who of my conspiring fellows was called to my home. He men-
tioned something about ''Whitehorse." Of course, I didn't know;
I told him truthfully I didn't know. I said I had never called any-
body Wliitehorse.

The interrogation on that subject went on for perhaps hours and
hours. I asked him to show me the proof. He said, "I will show it
to you."

While I was living in Newcastle I had a student friend — I was
young at that time, too. I had a student friend from Estonia at the
University in Edinburgh. Sometimes I went to see him and he came
to see me and we had sometimes some drinks. He wrote me a letter
one day saying he was preparing himself for the examination and
keeping away from Whitehorse, which was a bottle of whisky.

Mr. Kersten. And that was Mr. Whitehorse ?

Mr. LuDiG. Yes.

Mr, McTiGTJE. What pattern did the interrogation take? Was it
specific, was it general? Were you continually accused with specific
charges ?

Mr. LuDiG. I was never accused of any specific charge. I was gen-
erally accused of being a spy and I was asked questions which were
sometimes absolutely incomprehensible to me. They were stupid to
me and ridiculous to me.

Mr. McTiGUE. And some nights — probably a great many nights —
they just talked and talked and talked?

Mr. LuDiG. They talked; yes. I mean, the talking was probably
one of the methods of softening up, of course.

Mr. McTiGTJE. Were you sujected to any physical beatings?

Mr. LuDiG. I have never been subjected to any physical beatings.
One of the methods was certainly an intimidating method ; you were
insulted almost every night.

Mr. McTiGUE. Yours was brainwashing, then ?

Mr. LuDiG. You can call it brainwashing. Other people who were
in the same cell with me underwent beating almost every night.

Mr. McTiGUE. They were taken from the main cell in which you

Mr. LuDiG. To the boxes and afterward to the interrogating judge
and they were beaten up. Quite a number of my friends that time in
the cell were people from Ingermanland which is a border country
between Estonia and Russia. Ingermanland people are more Finnish
and their Estonian language resembles more the Finnish language.

Don't forget, in this connection, that was about the time when the
first Finnish-Soviet war went on, so the whole population was accused
of being Finnish spies, according to what I heard from the persons in
the cell. All villagers were taken away. Some were arrested, some
simply deported, some to Siberia, so the whole Ingermanland country
was made empty.

Mr. McTiGTJE. May I refresh your recollection in one regard?
When you were in the closet, did you happen to see any other names
which were scribbled on the wall or on the ceiling ?


Mr. LuDiG. At the end, when I was transferred to the central prison
in Tallinn, they put me into a closet, and when I left it the loose board
which was supposed to be the seat, where you couldn't actually sit
down because it was too narrow, I lifted the board so there might be
a little bit more room, and when I lifted the board I found an inscrip-
tion underneath the board. It said "Friedrich Akel"— who was the
Minister of Foreign Affairs, actually my former boss — "was locked
locked up here," I think, and the date.

Mr. McTiGUE. So the Foreign Minister of Estonia probably under-
^vent the same kind of treatment you did ?

Mr. LuDiG. He most certainly did.

Mr. McTiGUE. Were you finally sentenced after these weeks of
imprisonment ?

Mr. LuDiG. I was finally served with the accusation document, which
contained, I think, 2 or 3 lines, saying the same thing, that I wasa
British spy, and that was that. One night I was taken upstairs in
the presence of three people. They asked me whether I had read the
accusation, and I said I had, but that I had to say something. I said,
"I have never been a spy and I expect you to investigate it." They
said that my guilt was proved, and I was sentenced for 15 years.

Mr. McTiGUE. You were then brought back to your cell, and what
happened thereafter ?

Mr. LuDiG. I may mention, perhaps, in this connection — you men-
tioned brainwashing. Actually, I seemed to belong to the category
of people who were unfit to live and to work in the Soviet community,
so actually the whole procedure was, in my opinion, an unnecessary

Let me put it this way : Sometimes when you read in the papers
that a well-known person has been arrested by the Communists, has
been charged — well, let's say that the Hungarian Cardinal Mind-
szenty was accused of treason, spying. He was accused, I think, of a
number of other actions. You sometimes wonder why a cardinal
readily admitted he had committed those actions which a cardinal is
most unlikely to commit, and which I personally feel he hasn't com-

In connection with my little experience, let me put it this way : I
was interrogated in Russia and I happen to speak fluently Russian.
Speaking the same language as the interrogating judge, I had all the
time the feeling that we were speaking two diiferent languages. It
wasn't a question of not understanding words ; I mean that he didn't
understand my Russian words or I didn't understand his words; it
was the difference in the notions and ideas.

To explain it, let me say so much : For instance, being under crim-
inal accusation — and I was under a political criminal accusation — if
you belong to a party, say, in America, if you sometimes disagree
with Mr. Eisenhower or Mr. Truman, you quit the party. You can't
disagree with anything that is an established general line there; there
isn't even a possibility to disagree even if you are under suspicion
that, according to your background, you may not agree with the gen-
eral line. Well, you have to be destroyed. That is a notion which
doesn't occur to a person who is struggling to establish justice. To
begin with, such differences of notions don't occur to him. Say an
ordinary person is brought up in a normal way and he has, I would
say, a certain code of rules or set of rules which one usually doesn't


violate without losing self-respect. I mean, I wouldn't go around
and throw suspicions or denounce my best friends or my brothers and

In a Soviet community, if you want to be loyal to the party you are
required to do it. You are required to do it if you want to prove your
loyalty and if you want to make a living in the Soviet Union. You
encounter those differences of notion at every step during the interro-

For instance, a practical question in connection with my shipping
company. We employed quite a lot of sailors. I was asked about
the company's relationship to the trade union.

The trade union as we understand it — the way it used to be in Es-
tonia — was a free association of labor to protect the common indus-
tries. In Soviet Russia it is a Government agency. If you start dis-
cussing those things you don't understand each other.

"Wlien I said I had a feeling of talking a different language than my
judge was talking, it was because he didn't understand me; I didn't
understand him. In the long run it causes such a feeling of helpless-
ness and hopelessness. You start to give up the struggle. What is
the use of struggling, anyway? You wind up that when the judge
says you are a spy, well, that is O. K. with me. If he says I am a spy,
I am a spy. Wliat is tlie use of arguing anyway ? It has no sense.

Mr. Kerstex. I think you inferred a while ago that under this sys-
tem if one's close relative, a father or a son or a member of the family
is a member of the Communist Party, a real Communist, that com-
munism is even stronger than the family tie, or something to that

Mr. LuDiG. That is certainly so.

Mr. Kersten. That is what they try to establish under their system
of society, isn't it?

Mr. LuDiG. That is right, sir.

Mr. Kersten. I would like to show you something. You said you
read Russian ?

Mr, LuDiG. Yes.

Mr. Kersten. Tliis is a Russian textbook for non-Russian schools,
is it not ?

Mr. LuDiG. That is right.

Mr. Kersten. For the year 1952 ?

Mr. LuDiG. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kersten. A modern textbook in Russian for non-Russian
schools ?

Mr. LuDiG. That is right.

Mr. Kersten. Do you know the story of Pavlik Morozov ?

Mr. LuDiG. I don't.

Mr. Kersten. Here is a picture in connection with that story of a
young boy testifying in court. I can tell you from having this "trans-
lated that this is a story of a boy who testified against his father in
court, his father being condemned to death because he hid grain in tlie
home. For this act the boy is glorified and a statue erected to him in

Is that consistent with your ideas of the Communist society?

Mr. LuDiG. I think that is exactly what it is.


Mr. Kersten. In other words, praising a boy who would turn his
father over the executioner because the father hid grain in the home in
order to keep the family from starving?

Mr. LuDiG. That is right.

Mr. Kersten. That is consistent with what you are telling us and
that is what is presently being taught in the non-Russian countri*»>=
with Russian language, and in the captive states ?

Mr. LuDiG. Exactly. If I may add something, as the interrogation
went on, my personal case came more or less to an end; so I was
asked by the interrogating judge a question which, at the beginning,
seemed harmless to me. I was asked whether I knew many people
in the capital of Estonia, Tallinn. It is maybe 200,000 people and
if you have been in this place in school, if you were a member of a
couple of clubs and societies, you could very well almost say you prac-
tically knew everyone in town. It seemed quite a harmless thing to
stick to the truth and tell him so.

I soon realized what a terrible mistake I had made. They started
asking me questions about where are the people, and that is how my
last two weeks went on. I would say they were the most terrible
weeks I had. The questionings about my personal affairs weren't
so bad as the questioning about other people.

Here comes again the same story. You may give a perfectly harm-
less answer to a question and you never know what meaning will be
attached to this harmless answer.

You would perhaps say, why not say, if you are asked about a per-
son that you have never seen that person, you don't know anything
about him. For all I knew, the same person about whom I was inter-
rogated may have been under interrogation in the next room. You
didn't make any conflicting statements, not for your own sake, not
for the sake of the other persons. So, the last weeks during the inter-
rogations I was trying to say something and at the same time to say
nothing, but that put me under a mental strain.

Mr. McTiGUE. After you were sentenced, how was your release
eventually effected?

Mr. LoDiG. At that time there was no war between Soviet Russia
and Germany. There was an agreement between the Soviet Gov-
ernment and Germany about letting go certain categories of Estonian
and Latvian and Lithuanian people.

While I was in prison my wife did everything possible to get me
released. She w^ent to all possible Soviet authorities, which proved
to be, of course, fruitless. Good friends of my family made the
suggestion to my wife that she should apply at the German Legation
for me being claimed by the Germans.

One night — I didn't suspect anything — one night I was transferred
to the central prison in Tallinn. I was kept in a box, as usual, and
afterward pushed into a cell, and to my great consternation the whole
cell was German.

Afterward I was informed that those were the people who would
be handed over to the German authorities, so I found myself quite
unexpectedly out of this prison and I found myself in the woods o^
Bavaria in Germany.

Mr. McTiGUE. That is all.

Sergeant, is thei^e something familiar in the story that 5^ou just
heard as far as you are concerned ?


Sergeant Morar. The whole thing is rather familiar as far as
methods employed and timing; just the very similarity all the way

Mr. McTiGUE. When were j'ou shot down in Korea ?

Sergeant Morar. I was shot down on the morning of the 14th of
September 1951.

Mr, McTiGUE. You were aboard what kind of plane ?

Sergeant Morak. A B-26 bomber.

Mr. McTiGUE. Did you parachute out of the plane ?

Sergeant Mor.vr. Partially; I was parachuted and blown, a combi-
nation of both.

Mr. McTiGUE. Wliere did you land ?

Sergeant Morar. I landed in the mountainous area of North Korea.

Mr. McTigtje. Were you captured ?

Sergeant Morar. Xot immediately. I got out of the immediate area
as fast as possible. That is conducive to longevity there. The second
day out I was being trailed by a patrol, more or less, and I was
wounded in the right leg, but I got away from them and then a couple
of days later I had to give mj'self up because I lost so much blood and
my face wounds had caused my eyes to close, to swell closed.

Mr. McTigue. Were you burned'^

Sergeant Morar. Yes, I was burned on the hands and face, on the
parts of my body tliat were exposed during the burning of ths air-

Mr. McTiGUE. Were you shot in the arm and in the leg?

Sergeant Morar. I was wounded by shrapnel in the back and I was
shot in the right calf.

Mr. McTiGUE. Were you finally picked up by a Communist patrol?

Sergeant Morar. Yes, sir, indirectly. I went to a Korean civilian's
house and they turned me over to the Korea security police.

Mr. McTiGUE. What happened then?

Sergeant Morar. They walked me from the point of my capture
to Yongcloc.

Mr. McTiGUE. They walked you from Yongdoc to wdiat point?

Sergeant Mor^r. They walked me from the point where I was cap-
tured, unknown to me : I don't know where it was. They walked me
back to Yongdoc.

Mr. McTiGUE. How far was that, about ?

Sergeant Morar. About 10 miles.

Mr. McTiGUE. Were you given any kind of medical treatment ?

Sergeant Mor^vr. No, sir. As soon as I got there they started inter-
rogating me.

Mr. McTigtje. What kind of interrogation was it?

Sergeant M(^)Rar. They wanted to know everything, the group I
was from, where I took off from, what kind of airplane I was flying,
the members of my crew, the type of mission I was on, all the units
in Korea and the theater of operations, regardless of what country
they belonged to, any members of the United Nations organization
that had personnel in the Korean conflict. They wanted to know

Mr. ]\IoTigue. This interrogation went on incessantly?

Sergeant Morar. It went on all that night.

Mr. McTigue. Where were vou taken from Yougdoc ?


Sergeant Morar. I was taken from there to the east coast, to

Mr. McTiGUE. Still with no treatment for your wounds?

Sergeant Morar. No, sir. I asked for treatment but they told mft
1 was an air pirate, a war criminal and I didn't deserve treatment.

Mr. McTiGUE. How far was that ?

Sergeant Morar. That is about 35 miles from Yongdoc to Wonson.
Wliy they took me there I didn't know, because they didn't apparently
do anything at all to me except turn around and come back.

Mr. McTiGUE. How many miles all told were you walked in this
wounded condition?

Sergeant Morar. A little over 150, between 150 and 175. I subse-
quently ended up at Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea, and I was
in quite a state of shock. I don't remember too much of the trip. It
was rather exhausting and I was pretty weak at the time. I don't re-
call too much of the trip except walk, walk, walk all the time.

Mr. McTiGUE. You were walked approximatley 150 miles and con-
tinually questioned night and day?

Sergeant Morar. Walked by day and questioned by night. There
was a joint interrogation center, it was run by both Koreans and Chi-
nese. I was placed in a room ; the room was in a bombed out building.
They had rice sacks over the front of it. They started to interrogate
me and at this point I could hardly talk any more. I finally got to
where I couldn't get off of the floor.

It obviously became apparent to my captors that I couldn't talk
if I w^ere dead so they had better keep me alive. So they sent me to
what we would call an aid station and they administered medical
supplies to me, enough to get my wounds wliich were infected pretty
bad at this time, back to where they started to heal. But all this time
the interrogation continued.

Mr. McTigue. During your period of so-called hospitalization, the
interrogation kept up night and day ?

Sergeant Morar. Mostly in the evenings and, well, just any time
they felt like it, actually. There was no set pattern to follow. You
couldn't get used to when you were going to be interrogated because
it was at their desire.

Mr. McTiGUE. When they were reasonably sure you weren't going
to die

Sergeant Morar. Oh, at that time I was transferred to an interro-
gation center a little bit away from Pyongyang. It was the interroga-
tion center for the North Korean Army, the best we were able to de-
termine. We called it Pox Palace. Most prisoners know it by that

Mr. McTiGiTE. How long were you confined there ?

Sergeant Morar. I arrived there the 1st of October 1951 and I
stayed tliere until the 8th of December 1951.

Mr. McTigue. What happened there?

Sergeant Morar. Initially, on arrival, I was put in what we called
a hole. It was a very small room about 5 or 5 feet by 6 feet, maybe,
with a dirt floor, just built right on the ground. The walls were mud
and the roof was thatched. It had a big, heavy door in front of it
and I was placed in there, kept under lock all the time. There were
no windows in the place. It was dark all the time in there. From


there, for the ensuing period of 3 days, I was taken only for interro-

Mr. McTiGUE. Taken out of the mudhole every night for interro-
gation ?

Sergeant Morar. Yes, sir.

Mr. McTiGUE. What kind of interrogation was it ?

Sergeant Morar. I woukl be taken into a room and there were five
Korean majors sitting about a table. They would have a weapon
lying on the table, a sidearm, a pistol. Each one would take turns
asking me questions. They were very diversified questions. What-
ever came to them they would ask me. They would ask me any-
thing ranging from when and where I went to school to who was my
commanding officer and where was such and such unit, how many
Navy units, and then back to where did I go to school. They would
keep that up ; each one would take a turn.

Mr. McTigue. Much like the questioning Mr. Ludig was exposed to^
the same general line ?

Sergeant Morar. You didn't know wdiat they were after, actually.
They were questioning you on everything.

Mr. McTigue. Were thej' continually accusing you of being a war
criminal ?

Sergeant Morar. Yes. They accused me of being a spy because
when I was shot down I had a civilian pilot's license in my possession.

1 wasn't able to destroy it ; I thought I could hide it from them, hide
my wallet, which I couldn't do. They got hold of that and of course
it said I was a pilot of a single-engined plane. To them that meant
officer, by reasoning it out that pilots are officers and therefore it stood
to reason that if I was a pilot, I must be an officer.

When I denied this, right away they started working on that point
right there. They wanted me to confess that I was a spy because
why would I be posing as a sergeant if I wasn't, and I obviously wasn't
a sergeant because I was a pilot. I tried to explain it, that it was only
a CAA license, but that didn't go. They just kept asking about that.

Mr. McTigue. It is cold in Korea in October, isn't it?

Sergeant Morar. Yes, it is a lot colder when they take your clothes,
too. They left me a pair of summer flying coveralls and a pair of
shoes ; everything else they took.

Mr. McTigue. And they shuttled you back, between the mudhole
and the interrogation room, with the ever-present persuader on the
desk for how long ?

Sergeant Morar. The initial confinement was 3 days and 3 nights.
The guards had a fine deal too, because to take care of the basic neces-
sities, nature's calls, and so forth, you had to ask permission and, of
course, they just laughed at you. They played a game; even a drink
of water they wouldn't give to you, nothing. They wouldn't get you
anything. For 3 days that kept up and then I was put in the regular
compound with the other prisoners. That was a normal Korean
house, a courtyard of about 20 feet by 30 feet. It had a t-room build-
ing and confined in that area were between 70 and 80 men, all in just
that little area. There were 2 rooms and all the men had to sleep in

2 rooms. It was necessary to sleep overlapping, actually. We ac-
tually had to overlap each other. That is just the way it was. Then
we had to work.

Mr. McTigue. What kind of work ?

52975 — 54 — pt. 1 10


Sergeant Morar. We dug bomb shelters, and this is digging bomb
shelters in rock. It was in the mountains, with a very minimum of
tools, and very primitive, what were available. That was alternated
with going up into the mountains and chopping down trees and brush
and bringing it down the mountain, chopping it up and stacking it
over by the Korean house.

I must point out that we didn't build any bomb shelters for our-
selves. They were only built for the Koreans. We didn't have them.

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