United States. Congress. House. Select committee o.

Baltic States investigation. [First interim report] (Volume pt. 1) online

. (page 18 of 75)
Online LibraryUnited States. Congress. House. Select committee oBaltic States investigation. [First interim report] (Volume pt. 1) → online text (page 18 of 75)
Font size
QR-code for this ebook

Mr. McTiGUE. And the interrogation kept up in the meantime?

Sergeant Mor.\r. If you weren't working you were interrogated.

Mr. McTiGUE. Were you required to assume any position during
the interrogation ? Were you required to stand at attention, or were
you seated ?

Sergeant Morar. It depended on the whim of the interrogator.
Sometimes you had to stand at attention to be interrogated and other
times he would let you sit down. He would talk to you and if he
was dissatisfied with an answer he would put you at attention again
and possibly make you raise your arms over your head and hold them
in that position, or he would make you assume what you would call
a front support position, like you were about ready to do a push-up.
You would have to stay in that position.

Mr. McTiGUE. A man can hold that position for so long. Wliat
happens to him when he can't hold it any longer ?

Sergeant Morar. He falls on his face first and then the guard makes
him get up and do it again.

Mr. McTiGmE. And if he falls again he makes him get up again?

Sergeant Morar. Yes.

Mr. McTiGUE. Were you struck or beaten during any of these in-

Sergeant Morar. I had them pull their weapons on me. They al-
ways wore sidearms and they always threatened to kill me. One
time I was beaten rather severely. They tied me up first and a Ko-
rean captain and a Korean sergeant administered the beating, first
with their fists and I guess their fists got sore so one of them picked
up a shoe and started with that. I was tied after that in a regular
Oriental manner with the arms pinioned by the elbows, behind the
back, your hands tied across the front of your stomach and then a
rope drawn around your neck so that if you tried to lean forward
you would strangle yourself. Then they make you kneel on some
stones and place a stick in between the back of your thigh and the
back of your calf so that when you sit down on it, you are down and
you can't get up. They also put bricks under your ankles. This is
to stop the flow of blood.

As soon as they got me there one of them picked up a stick he had
found and he beat me on the back a while. Then he left and then
they would come back and on the way in they would stop at the
woodpile — this Korean major I was telling you about. They told
the other men in the compound that I was to be shot and if they
caught anybody in the compound trying to help me, they would go
in there with me; that they should disregard me and forget about
me because I was going to be shot. They told me this, too.

I stayed there that day, night, and part of the following day,
then they came and let me out. Of course, I couldn't walk so I


crawled into the building and the men in the building helped restore
circulation to my legs.

Mr. McTiGUE. And you were still suffering from your original
wounds ?

Sergeant Morar. Yes.

Mr. McTiGUE. Did there come a time when you were moved from
this camp that you have just described to a camp on the Yalu River?

Sergeant Morar. Yes, sir; on December 8, 1951. I imagine that
things were in such a state that they figured an armistice was forth-
coming in the immediate future. We didn't know anything about
the news. They took us up to the Yalu River and we were placed,
then, in the custody of the Chinese.

Mr. McTiGUE. "\Vliat was the Chinese method as distinguished from
the North Korean? Was there any difference?

Sergeant Morar. They were a little more subtle and they were inter-
ested in indoctrination. They were trying to indoctrinate us, working
on the assumption, I guess, that you can catch more flies with sugar
than vinegar ; they worked that w' ay.

I was interrogated there and of the men I know who were inter-
rogated there, if they didn't get the answers, it was outside, stand at
attention in the cold. That seemed to be a standard thing up there,
put them outside and stand them at attention. This was in the dead
of winter and it got quite cool outside.

Mr. McTiGUE. I think probably that is the understatement of the
year, isn't it?

Sergeant Morar. I was initially interrogated on arriving at camp
No. 2 on the Yalu and I guess I wasn't very good fertile soil for them
because they didn't bother me too much. They usually try to feel
you out. The first thing there, they would give you a questionnaire.
They wanted to know your entire family history, every single thing.
They wanted to know about all your relations, whom you worked for,
all the officers you knew, all the people you knew. They even wanted
to know where they worked, how much property they owned and were
they Republican or Democrats, what their religious and social affilia-
tions were.

Mr. McTiGUE. It was at this camp, wasn't it, that some of the con-
fessions about germ warfare were obtained ?

Sergeant Morar. To the best of my knowledge that was the camp
that the bacteriological confessions were obtained.

Mr. McTiGUE. Do you recall any incidents at that camp ?

Sergeant Morar. One incident : All of the prisoners in camp were
aware of the fact that since they had accused the United Nations
command of using bacteriological warfare, it was going to go hard
on any pilot subsequently captured, because it was our opinion that
they were going to get somebody to confess to it; it was the hand-
writing on the wall. We saw this one man ; I learned about him later.
T shan't mention his name, however, for obvious reasons. He was being
interrogated for bacteriological warfare. The reason I know he was,
was because the rest of the members on his crew were interrogated
along the same lines.

This man was a young, intelligent airman. He wasn't an old man
and from what I have been able to find out about him, he wasn't any-
thing but a levelheaded person. He was a good, healthy young Ameri-


can, but he was interrogated. The first time I saw him he was trying-
to get into our compound ; he was not trying to escape ; he was trying
to get into the compound with the rest of the prisoners, among people
lie thought would be friends. He was in a pretty bad way ; he looked

The guard was shooting at him and we hollered and told him not
to come any further, that he would get shot. A whole mess of Chinks
descended on him and they beat the heck out of him.

Another time he tried to do the same thing. He was shot in the
leg the second time and beaten up.

I never heard of him again until the da^^ after I was repatriated.
The Chinese Communists handed a list to the U. N. side. I figured
the exact amount of names on that list; it seems to me there were
about nine. His name appeared on this list. It said he was shot
Avhile trying to escape and it is my opinion that the man w^as insane;
there is no doubt about it. He was driven that way by the interroga-
tion and the interrogators. They couldn't let him be repatriated and
everybody knew he was a prisoner. We all knew he was. They had
to cover up some way. They probably shot him. Either they drove
him to the point where he did something drastic himself or they just
shot him.

Mr. McTtgue. Then in this camp, your indoctrination courses werft
maintained and kept on every day ?

Sergeant Morar. Yes, We were awakened in the morning. We
did some preliminary study in the room — we were supposed to. Then
we were taken down to a fairly large room at the end of the building"
where they had pictures of Stalin, Molotov, Harry Pollard, William Z.
Foster, all the great leaders. Foster's picture was the first one in line
after Marx. They had Marx, Engels, Lenin, and then came William
Z. Foster.

Mr. Kersten. Was Vishinsky up there, too?

Sergeant Morar. No. Rudolf Slansky was, though. I guess that
was a mistake. There were several whose names I don't even know.
They were all around the room. We had to sit and listen to somebody
expounding on the glories of communism and we were requested to
comment on it. They would pass around questions that we were
supposed to answer and they finally decided it wasn't going over at
all and they quit it. They tried surreptitious methods of handing
out things. The literature that was available was the New York Daily
Worker, the San Francisco People's World, Masses, and Main Stream.
I think the publishing house is International Publishers that handles
a lot of these things. There was a lot of stuff by International Pub-
lishers, Soviet literature. New China, all the literature from so-called
people's democracies. That was all available to us.

I might point out that after they did start exchanging mail, the
New York Daily Worker was a lot fresher than the mail we got. It
got there quicker.

Mr. Kersten. That was one of their early deliveries over there to
North Korea for indoctrination purposes?

Sergeant Morar. Yes, sir. They used that in their training pro-

Mr. Kersten. The Daily Worker?

Sergeant Morar. Yes, sir; articles in the Daily Worker by Pettis
Perry or Elizabeth Gurley Flynn or something. They would use that.


as the basis for a study program. A lot of these names I didn't know
before I was captured. I got an education. It was the wrong kind,
but I got one. The indoctrination didn't work, apparently, so they
stopped it. There is one thing I would like to point out. It was men-
tioned that leaders were chosen from a criminal element, possibly for a
control factor there. That was also done up there. If a man incurred
the wrath of the Commies, then oddly enough he was placed in the
position of squad leader. You couldn't see the reasoning behind it,
but they figured they had control on him. He was already in trouble
and he would have to walk the straight and narrow because under their
system, there are no unsolved crimes. Nothing goes unexplained ; it
is all explained; everything is explained eventually even if it is the
wrong person. If they want a confession, somebody is going to confess
so they can clear the docket.

But they gave up that indoctrination in our camp. Our camp was
composed of officers and Air Force enlisted men; all officers, ground
and air force, and enlisted men. They placed us all in the same
category for some reason. Their indoctrination didn't work.

Mr. McTiGUE. Did you have a feeling before the armistice that it
was going to be signed ?

Sergeant Morar. Yes; that was apparent because they started to
fix up the camp. They were repairing it, bringing it up to a state — of
a pigpen. They continued this work, fixing up the place. They let us
fix it up, which was something they didn't do before. We were always
willing to do it if they would give us something to do it with. We
always wanted to run the camp ourselves, which is according to all
concepts of prison comps; they are usually run by the inmates, and
they are responsible to their captors, but they are run by the inmates.
But they wouldn't let us do that.

Anyway, tliey started fixing up the camp. That continued until
they announced that the armistice had been signed, and continued after
that. We were there for the remainder of July and August, and we left
there in late August. But even when we left, in fact the day we left,
there w^ere people in there fixing up that camp even though we were
already gone.

We figured it was for the benefit of the joint Ked Cross teams that
were coming up there, because they bounced the prisoners out of those
<3amps just one step ahead of the Red Cross. The Red Cross didn't
visit any camp that had prisoners.

Mr. McTiGTJE. How long, Sergeant, were you a prisoner of the
Communists ?

Sergeant Morar. Almost 2 years, sir.

Mr. McTiGTJE. And you were repatriated on what date?

Sergeant Morar. The 2d of September.

Mr. McTiGUE. Thank you. Sergeant. That is all the questions I

Mr. Kersten. Mr. Bentley.

Mr. Bentlet. I would like to ask 1 or 2 questions addressed to
both gentlemen, Mr. Chairman. In the first place, I would like to
ask both of you, during your interrogation, Avhat was your average
daily ration; what were you given to eat? Mr. Ludig, will you
answer that question first ?


Mr. LuDiG. We hud a big cup of tea in the morning, and a piece of
bread. We had soup for hmch, sometimes with spaghetti or m,aca-
roni, and we had sweetpotatoes and three small fishes for supper.

Mr. Bentley. What did they give you to eat while they questioned

Sergeant Morar. The first year the ration consisted of 400 grams
of some kind of grain food — millet cracked, or rice — 400 grams per
man per day. Now the basic issue to the soldier is 700 or 800 grams
of grain food. That was supplemented by what they called a side
dish. But we got 400 grams per man per day. As soon as one died,
they would come and get his portion and take it out of our supply so
that his portion would not be eaten.

Mr. Bentley. This is another question I would like to address to
both of you. "Wliile you were being interrogated, did you feel that
your diet was deliberately being kept low in order to weaken your
strength and your resistance to the interrogation?

Mr. LuDiG. No, the diet was the same all the time. There was no
special diet for the time of interrogation.

Mr. Bentley. What do you say ?

Sergeant Morar. It was not apparent, but in retrospect, while I
was undergoing the most intense interrogation was when the ration
was the lowest.

Mr. Bentley. IMr. Ludig, was the same person talking to you all
the time or was it different individuals?

Mr. Ludig. It was the same person talking to me all the time, very

Mr. Bentley. You said they finally brought you before the then
NKVD court and said they had proven your guilt. Did they get
any admissions out of you which seemed to satisfy them as far as
trying to prove a case was concerned ?

Sergeant Morar. They didn't get from me no admissions but m^ybe,
as I say, in the long run, after weeks and weeks of questioning under
physical and mental strain, I simply didn't care to argue any longer.

Mr. Bentley. I see. Did they tell you if you would confess what
they would do with you ?

Mr. Ludig, I was told that would be an extenuating circumstance
in determining the penalty.

Mr. Bentley. Sergeant, in that connection, I would like to ask you
that same question. Were you given promises of better treatment
if you answered their questions ?

Sergeant Morar. When you tried to find out what they wanted
from you, they would tell you, "You just confess and we will be

Mr. Bentley. One thing more, Mr. Ludig. Was your family
threatened while you were being interrogated ?

Mr. Ludig. I was living in a house

Mr. Bentley. Excuse me. Did they tell you what they might do
to your family if you wouldn't confess?

Mr. Ludig. My family would be deported anyway.

Mr. Bentley. Now, Sergeant, I would like to get on to your ques-
tion just a minute, and that is this: I have read various reports in
the press concerning two newspapermen who during the war covered
the fighting from the Communist side of the battleline. One man's
name is Alan Winnington — I believe he is an Englishman — and Wil-


fred Burchett who, I believe, is an Australian. I remember him very
well. He covered the Cardinal Mindzenty trial while I was in Hun-

There has been some talk that a great deal of the examination of
you fellows was prepared, at least in part, by either one or both of
those men. Do you have information or any impressions as to that ?

Sergeant Morar. Well, I can't say that because I don't know who
prepared them, but I will say that at the North Korean interrogation
center there were questions submitted in writing that were above the
comprehension of the interrogators; they didn't know that much,
they weren't that intelligent about, say, aircraft and engines.

Mr. Bentley. The questions were submitted in English?

Sergeant Morar. In good English, good grammar, good punctua-
tion, and everything.

Mr. Bentley. Would you say it was an "English" English or an
American English ?

Sergeant Morar. No; it was in neither. It was just English.

Mr. Bentley. Did you have any English-speaking Chinese inter-
rogators ?

Sergeant Morar. Oh ; yes, sir.

Mr. Bentley. Did they speak colloquial English ?

Sergeant Morar. Of the Chinese that I know, two Chinamen spoke
colloquial English.

Mr. Bentley. Probably proving they had been in the United

Sergeant Morar. No; proving that they had been associated with
GI's because they had GI jargon. The other one — I don't know —
spoke English like an Italian.

Mr. Bentley. I wanted to bring those things out. Thank you both
very much.

Mr. Kersten. Just one question. In any of this interrogation
while you were there did you see some Russian personnel?

Sergeant Morar. Well, I saw, I used to see a courier go by just
about every day. He was dressed in a Russian uniform, lacking the
insignia of rank and the red star, but from the boots to the overseas
cap it was a Russian uniform.

Mr. Kersten. From his appearance.

Sergeant Morar. Yes. He was spoken to by one of the men who
spoke Russian, and he acknowledged it. Also t saw other Caucasians

Mr! Kersten. Other than the North Korean or Chinese ?

Sergeant Morar. Yes. They were in civilian clothing. They
wore those huge overcoats and rather gaudy clothes.

Mr. Kersten. Did you see this Russian courier frequently?

Sergeant Morar. Frequently, very frequently; almost every day.

Mr. Kersten. Coming where ?

Sergeant Morar. Just walking by in front of our place, going to
and from some place. He went right by our camp.

Mr. Kersten. He was right in touch with the Chinese Communist
or the North Korean Communist authorities.

Sergeant Morar. Yes, sir,

Mr. Kersten. Mr. Madden.


Mr. Madden. Mr. Ludig, could you state whether or not the Soviets
made any effort to take over jurisdiction of the younger generation
in Latvia ; that is, to indoctrinate them into communism ?

Mr. Ludig. I can speak only about Estonia. Certainly, yes. The
old school system was remodeled according to Soviet pattern. As I
say, I happen to be a lawyer, so we were all ordered to the indoctrin-
ation. While I was still working as an assistant legal adviser with
the shipping company we were all ordered to attend courses on Lenin-
ism, Marxism, and Stalinism. It had actually very little to do with
laws. It was more, I would say, a philosophical thing.

Mr. Madden. In other words, the Soviet leaders, the Communist
government of the Soviet Union, came in through the methods that
you just described in your testimony and took over the government
of Estonia against the will of the people?

Mr. Ludig. Most certainly, through monstrous force and monstrous

Mr. Madden. That is all.

Mr. Kersten. Mr. Bonin.

Mr. BoNiN. We assume that the same thing would happen here and
to other free nations of the world if they were able to occupy them.

Mr. Ludig. When the Second World War broke out, the Baltic
countries were probably the first countries taken over by the Soviets.
Now after the war other countries have been taken over by the Soviets,
and you can distinctly see that it is more or less the same.

Mr. BoNiN. In other words, the plan of approach is identical in
almost every case ?

Mr. Ludig. The plan of approach — putting people into responsible
positions who had never been anything. Just as was mentioned here,
criminals who under no regime had to respect anything were put into
responsible positions and were maybe willing to serve the new gov-

Mr. BoNiN. Therefore, if that has been true in the past it would
remain true in the future ?

Mr. Ludig. Most likely it has proved to be a good method of making
other countries Communist who otherwise would never become Com-
munist. I have been interested in those things, and so far no country
has become Communist without the Communist Soviet Army being in
the country.

Mr. BoNiN. Sergeant, what is your reaction to it ? Do you believe
that future generations of the free world can anticipate the same type
of treatment until they would completely conquer every free nation
in this world ?

Sergeant Morar. Well, from the way I got communism or learned
about it, it is their ultimate aim — world domination. They say, of
course, it is their aim to let countries destroy themselves, and they
will move in and take over. But I have been told several times by
either Chinese or Koreans that when the Soviet Union is ready to
march on the United States, they will have a lot of help in the United
States. In other words, the country would be paralyzed by strikes,
and they would be able to take over very easily.

Of course you must remember that these people I was talking to,
they were just little guys in the party; they weren't big guys. But
still that's the whole point, that the little guys believe it; it is that


Mr. BoNiN. That is a type of indoctrination that they continually
give to all their subjects ?

Sergeant Morar. That is right. Those people that I talked to, the
fanatics — and that is what they were up there — believed all that sort
of stuff. I imagine that if Stalin, who was the boy at that time,
had told them that black was white and white was black that it would
be gospel to them and they would believe it.

I would like to get in here — it has not been brought from me, I
think — that occasionally they had purges, they had to get rid of our
leaders, they had to take our ranking officers and get rid of them.
They had to have an excuse, so they would trump up some excuse —
that they were leading a resistance movement. So they would take
them out of camp and they would have a trial. They would bring
these men in and accuse them and sentence them.

When asked why the men were not defended, why was not a defense
counsel appointed, we were told at least that it was not necessary
because the men were guilty; if they weren't guilty they wouldn't
be there. Since they are there, they are guilty ; therefore they need
no defense counsel, and they were subsequently sentenced and we
didn't see them until we were repatriated. That was their "justice."

Mr. BoNiN. Were you indoctrinated with any theories of their
attitude toward religion ?

Sergeant Morar. Well, I read the Communist manifesto, and it
said that they were absolutely hostile toward all religions. I guess
that puts it as bluntly as anything. We had one chaplain left and
they discouraged him completely. They made it so hard for him
that at one time they even cut him out trying to talk to us, they put
him in jail and everything. They discouraged him. He was the only
chaplain that lived through the captivity. But then all their worJcs
say that religion more or less blinds the workingman, "the opiate of
the working class," I think is the term they used.

Mr. BoNiN. I wish to thank both of you men for the splendid testi-
mony that you have given here. It has been very helpful, I believe,
to the public at large to realize some of the factual situations of

Mr. Kersten. Mr. Machrowicz.

Mr. Machrowicz. Just one question. Sergeant. During the time
that you were undergoing this inhuman treatment, you and your col-
leagues, did you or any of your colleagues at any time refer to the
Geneva Convention on the treatment of prisoners and object to your
treatment as a violation of it ?

Sergeant Morar. From the minute I was captured almost, I was
asking for medical attention. They told me that I was a war criminal,
I deserved no medical treatment and they were not signatories to the
Geneva Convention ; therefore they were not required to supply any-
thing under that.

All through the entire captivity we brought that up and especially
with the Chinese, and the Chinese would come back with, "We are
not signatories, we don't need to abide by it."

Mr. Machrowicz. Their answer was twofold ; first, that they were
not bound by the Geneva Convention because they were not signatories,
and secondly you were not prisoners of war?

Sergeant Morar. That is right. When we asked why not let the
Red Cross bring in or send in some parcels, they told us that every-


body knew that the Red Cross was just a sp^^ organization, and they
wouldn't let anything come in.

Mr. Machkowicz. Mr. Lndig, I would like to ask you one question
also. You referred to this questioning that you were subjected to.
Was that questioning by Estonians or by Russians ?

Mr. LuDiG. I was questioned by Russians, NKVD officials.

Mr. Machrowicz. At all times ?

Online LibraryUnited States. Congress. House. Select committee oBaltic States investigation. [First interim report] (Volume pt. 1) → online text (page 18 of 75)