over it, the number of passengers, etc. There was no particular limit.

Mr. Itf:A. That is a question of operation?

Mr. Frost. It is a question of operation. You can haul all the logs
you can get on the cars, and as many cars as the road will hold. It
depends on your facilities for loading and unloading more than it
does

Mr. Lea. On how well the road was constructed, I presume?

Mr. Frost. It goes without saying that a logger constructs a road
pretty well, and pretty carefully. He has got to do that, because
lo^ aire a commomty that can not be slammed around like some other
thmgs that you would put in box cars, for instance. A logging road,
as a rule, is very carefully built, and pretty well surfaced, and
graded. I think that the road from LaKe Pleasant to Pjrsht and
Clallam Bay, the amount of material that can be handled over the
road, depends somewhat on the length of it. I think you can handle
as much or more that way than you can by a longer road. It would
not take so much rolling stock, and equipment, and as much motive
power.

Mr. Lea. Now, your idea wag based upon the proposition of ex-
tending this road from Port Angeles and then going over into the
Pleasant Lake Country?

Mr. Frost. No, our idea, what we were figuring on, was to brine
the logs either to the mouth of the Pysht, Clallam Bay, and dump
them and raft them, tow them to the market in Puget Sound. That
is cheaper and a more logical way of handling the timber in there.

Mr. Lea. That requires more time, of course, to reach your def^tina-
tion, than it would to deliver them all the way by rail, don't it ?

Mr. Frost. No ; I think not. I think it could be done more quickly.

Mr. Lea. For instance, if you wanted to deliver at Port Angeles,
and you had a rail track there, by delivering the shorter distance?

Mr. Frost. You might deliver a few logs more quickly, but you
could not deliver them in vast quantities, because a tow contain;^ a
great many logs.

Mr. Lea. You could take a larger amount by tow than you could
on a train?

Mr. Frost. Yes, and much cheaper; they could be handled much
cheaper on the water. They do not move so fast — I mean they do not
cover so many miles in the same length of time.

Mr. Lea. The estimates that you made on building this road, I
presume, were based upon commercial construction with a reasonable
time for completion?

Mr. Frost. These estimates were made not by loggers but by very
competent railroad engineers, and I think, my own opinion would be,
that a logging engineer would perhaps build a road a little more ex-



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AVIATION. 847

peditiously, a little more economically, and at a less cost then these
common-carrier railroad engineers would figure on. We have many
short cuts and many methods of cheapening the cost of construction
that are not commonly emplojred, have not been brought into eflfect
and force by the common-carrier railroads.

Mr. Lea. That depends upon the ability of the constructor, does
it not, the practical ability.

Mr. Frost. I think the logger is more practical in his construc-
tion than the average civil engineer in the employ of the transcon-
tinental railroads.

Mr. Lka. Did you have a little feeling of resentment against this
outside company engaging in the logging industry here?

Mr. Frost. None whatever against the company ; no, sir.

Mr. Lea. What was your objection in that respect?

Mr. Frost. I felt, as a matter of fact, that the industry of the
Pacific Northwest had perhaps not been treated with due considera-
tion, and these men being absolutely and completely without ex-
perience in lodging operations were going to make a very expensive,
and, perhaps, inefficient operation.

Mr. Lea. You don't know whether they did-;

Mr. Frost. And not only tliat, but that the industry in the Pacific
Northwest would perhaps oe held responsible for the conditions that
were created by the Seims-Carey, Kerbaugh Co., and by the Warme
Paving Co., through no fault of theirs. As a matter of fact, con-
ditions were forced upon the logger that they could not help, could
not prevent, and yet the logger and the lumberman of the Pacific
Northwest would ultimately nave the ignominy ultimately placed
upon his shoulder, and we wanted to save our faces and preserve our
good reputation.

Mr. Lea. So far as Seims-Carey was concerned, though, of your
own knowledge you have no knowledge as to their logging ability,
as to who they had to do the logging, or whether they were practical,
or with what degree of success they enter^ the industry, do you?

Mr. Frost. Only hearsay.

Mr. Lea. That is all, I think.

Mr. Magee. Now, I was on this speeder that jumped the tracks. I
would like to know just what is meant when you speak of a curve of
twelve to sixteen degrees?

Mr. Frost. Well, I will have to give you a lesson in mathematics,
I guess.

Mr. Magee. What I mean is, if you can tell me

Mr. Frost. Yes; I can.

Mr. Magee. How many feet, say, in a certain distance, or a hun-
dred-foot curve, would that be; how many feet of curve, say, in a
hundred feet?

Mr. Frost. That would mean on a 12^ curve — I can illustrate it
right here. We will say that this distance around the curve here is
100 feet, from this point to that. [Indicating.] That means a de-
parture here from this angle of 24°, measured from the center of the
circle the curve would ultimately describe.

Mr. Magee. Is there any way that you could estimate or approxi-
mate it as so many feet of curve, say, per hundred feet, as you do on
jading? When you speak of a grade of 2 per cent you mean a
rise of 2 feet in a hundred feet, don't you ?



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848 WAR EXPENDITURES.

Mr. Frost. Yes ; we mean a rise of 2 feet in a hundred f eeL

Mr. Magee. What I want to know is whether you can approxi-
mate

Mr. Frost. I think perhaps Col. Stearns can give you that dis-
tance ; I can not give it to you offhand.

Mr. Magee. Are you an engineer?

Mr. Frost. I used to be, yes; but ordinarily now when I have
any occasion to have work of that kind done I refer it to an engineer.

Mr. Magee. You could not give us any api)roximate idea of it
whether it would be 3, 4, or 5 feet of curve in a distance of 100 feet ?

Mr. Frost. I can not get your question, whether you mean — this
line, we will say, extended on a tangent — —

Mr. Magee. Suppose you have a curve that extends over 100 feet
Now, you speak of a twelve to sixteen degree curve?

Mr. Frost. Yes, sir.

Mr. Magee. What is a safe degree of curve, if I may ask?

Mr. Frost. A safe degree?

Mr. Magee. Yes,

Mr. Frost. It depends upon the rate of speed.

Mr. Magee. I mean in ordinary railroad construction?

Mr. Frost. I limit my limit railroad construction to 24®. We
operate over 24°.

Mr. Magee. The maximum?

Mr. Frost. Well, many of them go to 30, but I have mine down
to 24. I think that is aoout what I consider a very safe and prac-
tical limit. If vou go to 30 you have to slow up.

Mr. Magee. Are you familiar with the tracks of the Chica^ MU-
waukee & St. Paul Kailroad between Disque and the Twin River?

Mr. Frost. No. I have been over them but I am not particularly
familiar with them.

Mr. Magee. There are a good many fairly sharp curves there!

Mr. Frost. The old practice on the Pennsylvama Railroad, when I
was employed by the Pennsylvania, perhaps 35 years ago, was to
limit tlie degree of curvature to 16°.

Mr. Magee. You haven't any idea what would be the denee of
curvature of those sharp curves on that line between Disque and Twin
Biver?

Mr. Frost. I presume that perhaps 16° would be the maximum. I
do not know.

Mr. Magee. Now, this road from Lake Crescent to Lake Pleasant,
or, rather, from Disque Junction to Lake Pleasant, is a distance of
nearly 40 miles, as I understand ?

Mr. Frost. From Joyce ?

Mr. Magee. Yes, or Disque Junction, which is near Joyce, I think,
at the junction of the railroad built by the Seims-Carey-Kerbaugh
Co. with the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul ?

Mr. Frost. My understanding of the fact is that it is between 8^
and 37 miles.

Mr. Magee. Yes. Now, is there any spruce al(»ig that distaaoet

Mr. Frost. No ; none to speak of.

Mr. Magee. None to market?

Mr. Frost. None to market; nothing in commercial quantities.

Mr. Magee. So that they would have to get beyond the terminal ai
Lake Pleasant?



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AVIATION. 849

Mr. Frost. Yes.

Mr. Maqee. Before being able to obtain any spruce for market?

Mr. Frost. Yes.

Mr. Mageb. How near the terminal of this road at Lake Pleasant is
this large timber tract that you have described here?

Mr. Frost. Well, Lake Pleasant is perhaps somewhat on the north
side, near the center of the tract, near the center of the tract east and
west. Toward the west end are the Clallam Lumber Co. holdings,
and it is east of the holdings of the

Mr. Ma6££. How large a tract is that, generally, Mr. Frost?

Mr. Frost. A little more than 49,000 acres, with a cruise of approxi-
mately 4,000,000,000 feet.

Mr. Magee. Of different kinds of timber?

Mr. Frost. Yes.

Mr. Magee. There is fir, and hemlock, and spruce, and some cedar I

Mr. Frost. Some cedar ; not much cedar.

Mr. Mageb. All softwoods?

Mr. Frost. Yes; there are no hardwoods.

Mr. Magee. The tract, as I understand it, is heavily timbered?

Mr. Frost. Yes.

Mr. Magee. Eich in timber?

Mr. Frost. Yes, sir; very heavily timbered.

Mr. Magee. Of these various kinds?

Mr. Frost. Yes, sir.

Mr. Magee. Now, do you know anything about the ownership of
that tract, who are the large owners in that tract?

Mr. Frost. The Ruddock and McCarthy tract, I think it is owned
by Mr. Ruddock largely and Mr. McCarthy. They are men engaged
in the lumber business in the southern part of the United States.

Mr. Magee. The southern part, where?

Mr. Frost. The southern part of the United States, southern lum-
bermen.

Mr. Magee. In the South?

Mr. Frost. Yes.

Mr. Magee. You do not know from what State?

Mr. Frost. No, I do not; but I think perhaps

Mr. Magee. Louisiana?

Mr. Frost. Louisiana, I think, and J. D. Lacey has, of course, an
interest in that.

Mr. Magee. Where does he reside?

Mr. Frost. He resides in Chicago.

Mr. Magee. Do the Laceys own large tracts?

Mr. Frost. These are known as the Lacey holdings. The Ruddock
and McCarthy and the Clallam Lumber Co.'s holdings are generally
known throughout the Northwest and the lumber world generally as
the Lacey holdings.

Mr. Magee. That is what I wanted to get at.

Mr. Frost. The Clallam Lumber Co., I think, is owned by Mr.
Lacey, and he has a substantial interest — I could tell you in a mo-
ment, I think.

Mr. Magee. This other company that you mention as being owned
by a gentleman in the South, are those lands also designated as the
Lacey holdings?



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850 WAR EXPENDITURES.

Mr. Frost. The Lacey holdings, the whole tract, or the two tracts.
49,000 acres each, are commonly known as the Lacey holdings. As
a matter of fact, there would not be one Imnberman in 40 who would
know what you were talking about when you talked about Buddock
and McCarthy, or the Clallam Lumber Co.

Mr. Magee. The Milwaukee Land Co. has large holdings of timber
lands in this locality, has it not?

Mr. Frost. They did have a large holding, a compact body of
timber that lies on the south side of what is Imown as Burnt Moun-
tain, and east of the holdings of Merrill & Ring. That, I understand
has been sold to the Puget Mills & Timber Co., who own a larce saw-
mill at Port Angeles. It is west and northwest of the so-called Lacey
holdings, and west and northwest of Lake Pleasant

Mr. Magee. In this tract?
- Mr. Frost. Not in this tract.

Mr. Magee. Adjacent to it?

Mr. Frost. Adjacent to it, west and northwest of it. The Mil-
waukee Railroad owns a great amount of land in there.

Mr. Magee. Owns what?

Mr. Frost. Owns a large amount of timber land,

Mr. Magee. Have you any idea how much?

Mr. Frost. No ; I could not tell you offhand.

Mr. Magee. Approximately?

Mr. Frost. Oh, no ; a great many thousand acres.

Mr. Magee. Twenty thousand acres?

Mr. Frost. I should say that much, at least. Perhaps more.

Mr. Magee. Are there any other large owners of lands in that lo-
cality that you know about?

Mr. Frost. Well, the Milwaukee Land Co., outside of the Lacey 's
is perhaps the heaviest holder in the extreme west end of Clallam
County, and the Goodyear Lumber Co. owns a considerable amount
of timber north of Lake Pleasant. Merrill & Ring, the Goodyear
Lumber Co., the Milwaukee Land Co., and J. D. Lacey are the prin-
cipal owners in there — are the heaviest owners.

Mr. Magee. Then some intimations have been made here of some
offer on the part of the Siems-Carey-Kerbaugh Corporation to turn
their contract over to certain loggers or lumbermen. Do you know
anything about that?

Mr. Frost. Yes; there was some discussion of that. It was sii^
gested that the Siems-Carey-Kerbaugh Co. might be induced to
turn their contract for logging over to the loggers of the Pacific
Northwest.

Mr. Magee. I mean their spruce contract.

Mr. Frost. Well, that spruce contract — as I understand, it wa^
not to turn the contract over, only the logging; not the raiIroa<)
construction

Mr. Magee. What I want to get at is their contract, tliat is. a-
to whether or not there is any foundation for the statement that thej
were willing to turn their contract over to men here who were lojr-
gers or lumbermen familiar with the propsition, and get out,

Mr. Frost. No ; I didn't so understand it. I understood they were
willing to turn the logging- — ^that is, in other words, to have that
proportion or portion of their contract which referred to the loggin«r



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AVIATION. 851

of the timber over there eleminated, and turn the logging opera-
tions over to the loggers of the Pacific Northwest. That, however,
met with the disapproval of the spruce board in Portland. After
discussing it for some time

Mr. Mageb. Of the what?

Mr. Frost. Of the Spruce Production Board in Portland. After
discussing that for sometime, they turned it down. As a matter of
fact, Maj. Hitchcock told me he didn't want to do that

Mr. Maoee. Who, if you know, in this locality, would know exactly
what there is about the proposition ?

Mr. Frost. I think perhaps Mr. W. C. Butler, of Everett, would
know more about that than anyone else. He was on the ground all
the time. I was in Oregon a good portion of the time.

Mr. Magee. You mentioned that you didn't want to mix up with
the Siems-Carey-Kerbaugh Corporation. What did you mean by
that?

Mr. Frost. I meant that I didn't feel at all — it was suggested to
me, in Col. Disque's office, in a conference that took place between
Coi. Disque, Mr. Siems, Mr. Carey, Mr. Kerbaiigh, and myself — it
was suggested that instead of taking an independent contract to log
that we had better take a subcontract, or contract with Siems-Carey,
and that I declined emphatically, then and there, to take any contract
under them at all. That was the end of it.

Mr. Magee. What I meant, was that declination based on any
facts which had come under your observation which would be of
interest to the conmiittee?

Mr. Frost. Just

Mr. Magee. Or just a feeling that you had?

Mr. Frost. Oh, just a general knowledge of the conditions and
the manner in which the Siems-Carey-Kerbaugh contract was let.

Mr. Magee. What did you know about it ; what had come to your
knowledge — not from hearsay, but if you have any personal knowl-
edge of the facts?

Mr. Frost. Well, I have none, only that I was told

Mr. Magee. I don't care to go into that.

Mr. Frost. Repeatedly, that

Mr. Magee. Unless it is something from your own observation or
knowledge.

Mr. Frost. I didn't like the looks of the outfit; I didn't want to
be mixed up with them.

Mr. Magee. Now, did the loggers here, so far as you know, have
anything to do with determining the policy of the United States
Spruce Production Corporation?

Mr. Frost. Not so far as I know, at the outset. After these con-
tracts were all let, the Spruce Corporation was formed, in which some
of the loggers and manufacturers of the Northwest were invited to
participate, but I think the loggers were not consulted about letting
the contracts ; at least, if they were I never heard anything about it,
and I have been very active in logging circles.

Mr. Magee. Do I understand they were not called in and consulted
iintil the creation of the Spruce Corporation?

Mr. Frost. That is to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Mageobs. That was some time, as I understand, September, 1918?
147155— 19— VOL 1 56

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852 WAR EXPBK^DITUKES.

Mr. Frost. I think September or October.

Mr. Magee. 1918.

Mr. Fhost. Yes; it was after the contraci-



Mr. Magee. a few weeks before the armistice was signed f

Mr. Frost. Yes, it was before the arraistioe was si^ed.

Mr. Magee. Now, there is one other question I desire to ask you,
Mr. Frost. You spoke about towing logs to market in Puget Sound

Mr. Frost. Yes.

Mr. Magee. Where is the market or markets k)cated that you had
in mind, what do you call the places when you speak of market in
Puget Sound 1

Mr. FnosT. Well, there are mills locaited here and there all over
Puget Sound — ^Bellingham, Anaoortes, Everett, Seattle and vicinity,
Tacoma.

Mr. Macfee. Those places

Mr. Frost. Yes.

Mr. Magee (continuing). Are the ones you had in mindt

Mr. Frost. Yes.

Mr. Maoeb. Spoken of generally, I suppose, as the marfce te hat
for logs as commodi^f

Mr. Frost. Yes. Those are the principal pluces.

Mr. Magee. I think that is all.

Mr. Frear. Just a question or sa It has been brought mit in
regard to the Siems-Carey-Kerbaugh Co. wishing yon folks to, or
offering to let ^ou people, the loggers, take oyer their contraet. That
came about, did it, in a letter from Gen. Disque, or Mr. Disque« or
Col. Disque — I don't know whajt he was then — irom Disque

Mr. Frost. I have forgotten.

Mr. FfiaiAR. You don't mow the parttcnlars of tliat ?

Mr. Frobt. Yes; I ought to be very familiar with them, but I have
forgotten whether it was a letter from Col. Disque or whether it wis
a statement made by Mai. Hitchcock, at a meeting in the Hoge
Building, of the Loggers' Information Association, but my recollec-
tion is that at a meetmg of the Loggers' Association, in which Maj.
Hitchcock was present, ne made the statement that the Siems-Carey-
Kerbaugh Co. nad made an offer to turn over the logging end of
their operations to the loggers of Puget Sound.

Mr. f'REAR. By such means, they could, of course, preserve their
contracts and receive their cost-plus profit.

Mr. Frost. Well, not on the logging, but on the

Mr. Frbar. But from the Government t

Mr. Frost. No ; their contract, in so far as the logging was con-
cerned, was to be abrogated, but they would retain the manufactnrinf
and the railroad construction.

Mr. Frear. Oh, theirs was for flitches that they were to manufac-
ture into airplane stock at so much, and you were to fumidi the logs;
that was the proposition?

Mr. Fhost. We were to furnish the logs; yes,

Mr. Frear. In that proposition, you were required to fumisli how
many logs?

Mr. P^osT. I dont remember. It was whatever the Siems-Ouer
contract called for.

Mr. F^mAR. I think I will get it from some one else who is familiar
with the terms of it.



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AvunoTSf. 853

Mr. Lea. The contract is in evidence; 250,000,000 feet

Mr. Fbbar. No; it is 500,000,000 feet of logs that they required in
that, and 250,000,000 of flitches, is the contract that the Siems-Carey-
Kerbaugh Co. had, but the proposition made to the loggers was for
500,000,000 feet of logs.

Mr* Frost. I would not say as to that.

Mr. Frear. Do you know how much mileage or how much rail-
way is necessary, j)er section, in logging, are you familiar with
that part of it sufficient to say ?

Mr, Frost. That is a very difficult question to answer. It de-
pends upon the physical characteristics of the ground, and upon
the loggers. I would figure — ^myself, I run a spur through alx)ut
each thirty acres, and that means a considerable amount of jading.
Would be sixteen forties in a section; it would take perhaps at
least five miles of spurs.

Mr. Frear. To what?

Mr. Frost. To log that section.

Mr. Frear. To log the whole section?

Mr. Frost. Yes, but that

Mr. Frbar. To log thirty acres?

Mr. Frost. No, to log 640 acres. But that rail jand ties could be
taken up ond used over and over again on the same section. It would
necessarily mean that you would have to have 5 miles, to start it,
and you would do from 5 to 6 miles of grading, if it is level ground.
If, however, you were on a mountain side, where you have to em-
ploy switchbacks to get up — if you have unusually rough country —
it might take a good deal more than that.

(Thereupon, at 4:50 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned
to meet to-morrow, Friday, August 22, at 10 o'clock a. m.)



Friday, August 22, 1919.

The subcommittee met at 10 o'clock a, m. in the court room of
the United States District Court, Seattle, Wash., Hon. James A.
Frear (chairman) presiding.

Mr. Frear. The committee will come to order. We will hear you
now, Mr. Chisholm.

TESTIMONT OF MB. WILLIAM JAMES CHISHOLM.

(The witness was sworn by Mr. Frear.)
Mr. Frear. Where do you live?
Mr. CniSHOiiM. Seattle.
Mr. Frear. How long have you lived here?
Mr. Chisholm. Eleven years.
Mr. Frear. Where was your home before that?
Mr. Chisholm. Minnesota.

Mr. Frear. You have been engaged in the lumbering business how
many years?
Mr, Chisholm. Forty-five vears.

Mr. Frear. In the logging business during a portion of that time?
Mr. Chisholm. Always in the logging business.
Mr. Frear. You have always been engaged in the logging business?



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854 WAB • EXPENDITUBES.

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. Who are you employed by at the present time?

Mr. Chisholm. The Merrill & King Lumber Co.

Mr. Frear. Doing business at what point?

Mr. Chisholm. Pysht, Wash., at present.

Mr. Frear. That is on the Olympian Peninsula, on the Straits?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. And about how many miles west of Deep Creek?

Mr. Chisholm. About seven and a half miles.

Mr. Frear. How large operations are they conducting at thit
point?

Mr. Chisholm. We put in about 65,000,000 last year.

Mr. Frear. Sixty-five million feet of logs?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. How large a company is it; have they other operations,
elsewhere ?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir ; in British Columbia and at Grays Harbor.

Mr. Frear. What have you to say about the comparative siie of
this company with other companies ?

Mr. Chisholm. The Merrill & Ring Co. are one of the largest lojj-
gers in the State, I think. That is, they are mixed up with other
people.

Mr. Frear. They have different connections?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. Wliat is your business?

Mr. Chisholm. I am general manager.

Mr. Frear. Of their company ?

Mr. Chisholm. Of this part of it.

Mr. Frear. Of the Merrill-Ring Co., at Pysht?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes.

Mr. Frear. And you have been there how many years?

Mr. Chisholm. At Pysht?

Mr. Frear. Yes.

Mr. Chisholm. About five years.

Mr. Frear. Where were you before that?

Mr. Chisholm. Near Everett.

Mr. Frear. Working for the same people?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. And in the same business?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. You have had general supervision of their work U
that point ?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. Where you are now employed, which includes lof-
ging, railroading, building of railroads, etc., I assume. Are T<»a
familiar with the cost of railroad construction?

Mr. Chishol3i. Well, with logging-railroad construction; noi
main lines.

Mr. Frear. I mean logging-railroad construction. Have you buil'
any railroads in that section?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir; we have built about 25 miles.

Mr. Frear. Around Pysht?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. When were they built?



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AVIATION. 855

Mr. Chisholm. Oh, within the last four years. We are building
all the while.

Mr. Frear. Every year'^

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. You were building last year — 1918 ?

Mr. Chisholm. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. What can you say as to the cost of railroad building
such as you have been j)utting in?

Mr. (jHiSHOLM. I think our roads averaged, except last year,
around about $15,000 a mile.

Mr. Frear. What did they average last year, would you say ?