Mr. LiGHTNER. Yes ; that is mountainous there.

Mr. Magee. I wanted to see whether I was right. That was the
way it impressed me.

Now, take from Lake Crescent down to the junction, there —
what junction is that — ^Whiskey Creek Junction, is it?

Mr. LiGHTNER. Yes.

Mr. Magee. Now called Disque Junction?

Mr. LiGHTNER. Yes.

Mr. Magee. Now, there is a long cut through solid rock, isn't
there?

Mr. LiGHTNER. I have never been over that.

Mr. Magee. You have not been over that?

Mr. LiGHTNER. No, sir. I imderstand there is a canyon there, but
I have never been near there.

Mr. Magee. You understand what?

Mr. LiGHTNER. I understand there is a sort of canyon there,
called the Lyre Canyon.

Mr. Magee. That is what is called the Lyre Canyon?

Mr. LiGHTNER. Yes, sir. That is pretty deep. I have never been
in there, so I can not tell you.

Mr. Magee. You do not know just how many feet of rock they cut
through there?

Mr. LiGHTNER. No.

Mr. Mageb. I think that is all.

Mr. Frear. I will offer this document in evidence.

(Document received in evidence and marked Exhibit N, Lightner,
August 22, 1919.)

(Thereupon, at 12.45 o'clock p. m., a recess was taken until 2
o'clock p. m.)

AFTER recess.

The committee met, pursuant to the taking of recess, at 2.15
o'clock p. m.

TESTIMONY OF HB. A. A. SCOTT.



The witness was sworn by Mr. Frear.

Mr. Frear. State your full name, Mr. Scott.

Mr. Scott. A. A. Scott.



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902 WAR EXPENDITURES.

Mr, Freab. Where do you live?

Mr. Scorr. Mukilteo, Wash.

Mr. Frear. Where is that place in reference to (Seattle!

Mr. Scott. That is near Everett, just this side of Everett

Mr. Frear. What is your business?

Mr. Scott. I am in the lumber manufacturing business.

Mr. Frear. And have been for how many years!

Mr. Scott. Thirteen years on the coast.

Mr. Frear. And where prior to that time!

Mr. Scott, State of Michigan.

Mr. Frear. What has been the character of your duties in connec-
tion with the lumber business?

Mr. Scott. On the coast operating sawmills and logging camps.

Mr. Frear. What is the company you are connected with!

Mr. Scott. The Puget Sound Mills & Timber Co., of Port Angeks,
and the Crown Lumber Co., of Mukilteo, Wash.

Mr. Frear. This mill at Port Angeles is the large mill that is do-
ing business there at the present time?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. You are acquainted, are you, with the other mill that
is there at Port Angeles, that was contemplated to be built by the
Seims-Carey, Kerbaugh Co.?

Mr. Scott. I have seen the structure as it is. I have been through
it once. I have never seen the plans or the mill.

Mr. Frear. Do you know anything about how it was to be
equipped or anything of that kind?

Mi\ ScoiT. I understood it was to be equipped to be what they call
a double-band mill, approximately 250,000 m one shift.

Mr. Frear. That is, an 8-hour shift?

Mr. ScoTT. An 8-hour shift, as I understood. They intended to
run three 8-hour shifts.

Mr. Frear. That is, day and night?

Mr. Scott. That is day and night.

Mr. Frear. Was there anything about the mill or the equipment.
so far as you understand, that was different from any other up-to-
date mill ?

Mr. Scott. No; I understand it was the same equipment. They
intended to install a cutting-up plant right in connection with the
mill.

Mr. Frear. Your mill is at the same place, Fort Angeles?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir,

Mr. Frear. What kind of a mill have you people?

Mr. Scott. We have a double-band mill.

Mr. Frear. What is the capacity?

Mr. Scott. Approximately 280,000 in eight hours.

Mr. Frear. In what respect does it differ from this Port Angeles
mill of the Seims-Carey, Kerbaugh Co.?

Mr. Scott. The only difference is that it is a steam-driven milL
and I understand that the Seims-Carey, Kerbaugh Co. mill was
to be an electrically-driven mill.

Mr. Frear. Where would they get the power?

Mr. Scott. They were to make their own power through a turbine
engine.



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AVIATION. 903

Mr. Fbeab. Not water power ?

Mr. ScjOTT. No, sir.

Mr. Fr£ar. How long has your mill been built at that point?

Mr. Scott. Five years ; 1914.

Mr. Frear. It is a comparatively new mill!

Mr. Scott. Practically a new mill.

Mr. Frear. So, if the Secretary of War, in his letter, wrote that
they tried to buy an old mill up at Port Angeles it must have been
your mill that he had in mind?,

Mr. Scott. That is the onlv mill there.

Mr. Frear. And your mill had only been built four years ?

Mr. Scoti. Five years.

Mr. Frear. Four years at that tim^?

Mr. Scott. Four years in 1918.

Mr. Frear. Your mill has a larger capacity, as I understand, than
this other mill?

Mr. Scott. It is a larger mill ; yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. Did you people do any work, sawing or otherwise, for
the Government?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. What work was done?

Mr. Scott. At first we cut what they call the regular spruce speci-
fications, and later we cut spruce cants and fir cants, shipping them
to Vancouver, Wash.

Mr. Frear. By the way, before I forget it, you people had another
mill, had you?

Mr. Scott. Yes ; we have another mill at Mukilteo.

Mr. Frear. What is the capacity of that mill?

Mr. Scott. Two hundred and TOrty thousand in eight hours.

Mr. Frear. That is practically the same size; your two mills are

Sractically twice the capacity of this mill that was to be built at
^ort Angeles?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. How long has that other mill been built?

Mr. Scott. That mill is 14 years old.

Mr. Frear. What is the character of its equipment, as to being
modem or otherwise ?

Mr. Scott. It is a modern mill. We have what we call two-head
band rigs, and one resaw, and one gang.

Mr. Frear. So that your two mills had a capacity of an eight-
hour shift of 600,000 feet per day?

Mr. ScorPT. Approximately 520,000.

Mr. Frear. A million and a half in three shifts?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. I will now ask you again about the contract which you
had with the Government?

Mr. Scott. Well, we simply had a contract with the Government
to furnish, as I said, the specifications for the finished airplane stock,
rough finished, which was later changed to the cants. We furnished
spruce cants and fir cants.

Mr. Frear. Who were they furnished to and where wei*e they sent?

Mr. Scott. They were sent to Vancouver, Wash., the Spruce Pro-
duction Corporation.



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904 WAR EXPENDITUBES.

Mr. Freak. What was done with them tliere?

Mr. Scott. Well, they were finished there into different parts, 1
suppose, of airplanes.

Mr. Freak. Special machinery was furnished for that purpoeef

Mr. Scott. At our plant?

Mr. Frear. No ; at their plant.

Mr. Scott. Yes.

Mr. Frear. Could any mill have been equipped with it if the Gov-
ernment had chosen to supply it?

Mr. Scott. It could have iJeen, yes; but it would have been pretty
expensive.

Mr. Frear. But if the Government chose to supply it?

Mr. Scott. The Govemment^could have installed it.

Mr. Frear. At any plant?

Mr. Scott. The Government could have; installed it at any plant;
yes. They contemplated building one at our plant.

Mr. Frear. As part of the Government plant, supplementing
the work of that plant?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. But there was none built because under this contract
that was let with Seims-Carey-Kerbaugh Co.

Mr. Scott. There wasn't any cut-up plant built for the Seim^
Carey-Kerbaugh Co. that I know of. There was one contemplated
being built at Port Angeles, but the only one that was built tbit
I knew of was at Vancouver.

Mr. Frear. The machinery was never installed at Port Angeles f

Mr. Scott. No, sir.

Mr. Frear. Did you ever have any dealings with the Seims-
Carey-Kerbauffh Co.?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. Of what character?

Mr. Scott. We furnished them lumber to construct the mill at
Port Angeles. We also furnished them lumber to build their rail-
road from Disque to Lake Pleasant. We furnished them brid^
timbers and other timbers. We also furnished them lumber for
building all of their bunk houses, of which there were approxi-
mately 240 bunk house cars built at Port Angeles. I do not know
whetlier there was that many built, but that was the contract.

Mr. Freak. That was all nirnished from your mill?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir ; practically all of it.

Mr. Frear. What negotiations did vou have, if any, with th«n in
regard to your own miU? Not as to tne amount, or anything of thai
kind.

Mr. Scott. You mean as to the sale of the mill to the Seims-Carey-
Kerbaugh Co.?

Mr. Frear. Yes.

Mr. Scott. We were asked if we would sell our miU, and we told
them that we would, and I think the offer was turned down*

Mr. Frear. Where is your timber located? Have you any timber
in that section?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir ; we have timber in Clallam County.

Mr. Frear. Where is it?

Mr. Scott. We have timber at what we call the Twin Tract.



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AYIATION. 905

Mr. Frear. That is how far from your mill — ^that is, approxi-
mately 9

Mr. Scott. It is approximately 30 miles from Twin Rivers to
Deep Creek. We have approximately 300,000,000 feet there — did
have in 1918. We have another tract at Lake Crescent, following
the Lyre River Canyon.

Mr. Frear. The Milwaukee Land Co. timber, is that the same
timber?

Mr. Scott. That is known as the Twin tract. The Milwaukee
Land Co. tract is known as the Twin tract.

Mr. Frear. You had that for your mill, so of course that would be
an element in determining the sale of your mill?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. Because it left you in a position where you would
have to handle that in some way, providing you disposed of your
mill?

Mr. Scott. We would have to handle that timber separately if
we disposed of our mill, because the Seims-Carey-Kerbaugh Co. did
not want thaottimber. We would have to dispose of that up-sound
some place. We probably would have towed it to the Mukilteo mill.

Mr. Frear. How far is that?

Mr. Scott. That is about 80 miles, 85 miles.

Mr. Frear. You had something to do with a right of way up the
Lyre River?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; we owned practically 3^ or 4 miles of the
right of way that this railroad is on from Disque to Lake Crescent,
up the Lyre River Canyon.

Mr. Frear. Did you have rails there, track?

Mr. Scott. No, sir. We had a roadbed graded part of the way.
That is the only available route to take that timber out.

Mr. Frear. What has been done with your road?

Mr. Scott. Part of it was destroyed by the Spruce Production
Division in building their road. I haven't fiffured out just how much,
but approximately 1,800 or 2,000 feet was destroyed entirely by the
Spruce Production road.

Mr. Frear. That is up that Lyre Canyon?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. Did you convey any rights to them, or was anything
done, any condemnation proceedings, or what?

Mr. Scott. We haven't conveyed any rights at all.

Mr. Frear. Was this your land ?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. What is the situation ?

Mr. Scott. Well, we have refused to convey a right of way to the
railway company.

Mr. Frear. Why?

Mr. Scott. Until some provision is made to take our timber out.
Approximately 200,000,000 feet has got to come out that way, and we
absolutely refused to convey the land to the railroad company until
provision was made to take our timber out. If that railroad was
sold to private individuals and was not a common carrier, we would
be at the mercy of those private individuals. ^

Mr. Fhear. That is what was done, wasn't it?



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906 WAR EXPENDITURES.

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. It was built for Seims-Carey, Kerbaugh, a private com-
panv?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. That was a private company that was going to bring
out the logs?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. On their own contract?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Magee. He is referring now to if it should be sold to some
private individuals.

Mr. Scott. Yes ; I am referring to that.

Mr. Frear. I am speaking about the condition that confronted
you. That was it?

Mr. Scott. Yes.

Mr. Frear. That was a private company?

Mr. Scott. Yes.

Mr. Frear. And they would be given an exclusive contract for this
railroad?

Mr. Scott. Yes ; I believe the deed read in the name of the Seims-
Carey, Kerbaugh Co.

Mr. Frear. But the Government agreed to get that right of way
for them under their contract?

Mr. Scott. I do not faiow as to that. I know that the application
was made by the Seims-Carey, Kerbaugh Co. to us for the right of
way.

Mr. Frear. And they were building the railroad on a cost-plus
contract, as it appears here?

Mr. Scott. I understand so.

Mr. Frear. Financed by the Government!

Mr. Scott. I understand so.

Mr. Frear. Are you familiar with the building of railroads or mat-
ters of that kind ?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. What is your experience in building logging roads!

Mr. ScoTT. We construct from 5 to 8 miles a year.

Mr. Frear. During the past six months!

Mr. Scott. During the past six months we have graded 8 miles.

Mr. Frear. Where was that?

Mr. Scott. Between Deep Creek and Twin River. That is a moun-
tainous country. Of course, it is not a transcontinental road that we
are building.

Mr. Frear. You are building simply for lodging purposes?

Mr. Scott. Simply for logging purposes, that is all.

Mr. Frear. Have you any estimate as to what it is costing yoo ?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. Tell the committee, please?

Mr. Scott. Well, from fourteen to sixteen thousand dollars a mile,
steeled out.

Mr. Frear. What kind of steel?

Mr. SooTT. We are using from 45 to 60 pound.

Mr. Frear. What kind of locomotives can be used on that!

Mr. ScoTT. The Shay locomotive up to 70 tons. We have five.
We haul the Milwaukee cars right up on our land, right into the

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AVIATION. 907

woods on our branch lines, and load them and deliver them back to
the Milwaukee line at Twine River.

Mr. Frear. How many cars to one engine?

Mr. Scott. We can take up 10 to 12 empties and bring down on a 7
per cent grade from 6 to 6 cars.

Mr. Frbab. You build then even up to 7 per cent grade?

Mr. Scott. Yes; we have some 7 per cent grade.

Mr. Frear. That is right in the rough country, up the sides of
the hills?

Mr. Scott. Up the side of the mountain ; yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. Did you have any dealings with Mr. Disque, or any of
the other people there in Portland?

Mr. Scott. We have had dealings with the Spruce Production
Division; yes, sir; in regard to our contract for furnishing the
spruce cants and fir cants. I would not say that we had any direct
dealings with Col. Disque.

Mr. Frear. Did you ever meet him?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; I called on him several times in Portland.

Mr. Frear. Did you ever discuss anything regarding any con-
tracts?

Mr. Scott. No, sir.

Mr. Frear. Is there anything else that you think of that I have
omitted that might be of interest or service to the committee ?

Mr. Scott. There is only one other thing that I have in mind, and
that is in regard to the mill that was purchased by the Seims-Carey,
Kerbaugh Co. in Canada and shipped to Port Angeles.

Mr. Frear. That was the machinery in the mill?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. What about that?

Mr. Scott. Well, that was purchased up there in British Colum-
bia and shipped to Port Angeles, which I think was entirely un-
necessary. There were 30 mills on Puget Sound, idle for 16 hours,
with a capacity of 6,000,000 feet in 8 hours' run, or 12,000,000 feet
in 16 hours' run, able to cut all the spruce that could be produced.

Mr. Frear. And 18,000,000 feet on a 24-hour run?

Mr. Scott. If necessary; yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. Those mills were right on the sound ?

Mr. Scott. Right on Puget Sound, on tidewater, that logs could
be delivered to.

Mr. Frear. What was done with the mill that was brought down
from Canada?

Mr. Scott. Why, part of it was shipped to Port Angeles, and after
the armistice was signed it was reloaded — what portion was unloaded
was reloaded on cars and shipped to Vancouver, Wash.

Mr. Frear. That was the machinery?

Mr. Scott. The machinery and frame of the mill. I understand
that the boilers, burner, ana smoke stack was still intact, and the
diy kiln.

Mr. Frear. This mill that is there, the frame work appears to be
up?

Mr. Scott. That has nothing to do with the Canadian mill at all.
It was an entirely different sawmill that was purchased from a Cana-
dian corporation in New Westminster, British Colombia.



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908 WAR BXPBISJDITURBS,

Mr. Freak. For use at what place?

Mr. Scott. Lake Pleasant.

Mr. Frear. That was the Lake Pleasant mill that they proposed
to put in?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. What was the necessity for the mill there, as you un-
derstood ?

Mr. Scott. Well, to cut spruce cants, that is all I know. That is
what they told me. They couldn't get the capacity in the Port
Angeles mill and it was necessary to build another mill at Lake
Pleasant to cut these cants.

Mr. Frear. What was to be the capacity of the Lake Pleasant
mill?

Mr. Scott. Approximately 250,000 feet in 8 hours.

Mr. Frear. That is, their two mills would cut the same capacity
as the two mills your company had?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; or our mill at Port Angeles would have cut
all their spruce cants in 24 hours, that those 2 mills would cnt at
one eight hours.

Mr. Frear. They were anticipating running day and night, were
they not?

Mr. Scorr. I understood they were expecting to run 24 hours.

Mr. Frear. Your mills could cut the same quantity as their mills.

Mr. Scott. Yes.

Mr. Frear. How many other mills are there on the sound f

Mr. Scott. Approximately 80 to 35 mills on tidewater that spruce
loffs could be towed to that were idle 16 hours.

Mr. Frear. Do you know whether there was any proposition made
to these mills for cutting bv the Spruce Production Corporation at
Portland?

Mr. Scott. I do not know if the Spruce Production Corporation
made any overtures to the mills, but 1 knew Seims-Carey-Kerbaufi^i
did. They conferred with the mills, or with a committee of all the
mills on Puget Sound.

Mr. Frear. Were there any negotiations of any kind directly at-
tempted prior to the coming of Seims-Carey-Kerbaugh in the
country ?

Mr. Scott. Not that I know of. We had no negotiations with
the Spruce Production Division. There were simply contracts sent
to us to furnish all the cants that we could, which we did.

Mr. Frear. You furnished those?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir ; we furnished all we possibly could cut,

Mr. Frear. What portion of the time of your mill was taken in
furnishing those cants?

Mr. Scott. We only operated one shift, and we cut all the clear off
of the fir logs and all the clear off of the spruce logs, into cants, in
preference to our commercial orders. Oi course, the balance of
the log the Spruce Production Division didn't want and we worked
that up into our commercial business.

Mr. Frear. Did it take all the time of the eight-hour shift to sup-
ply the needs of the Spruce Production?

!Mr. Scott. Well, of course you don't cut full — you don't cut full
aircraft lumber on an entire s&ift, you simply get what is in the log^



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AVIATION. 909

that will apply on that order, and then you have ffot to go to work
and continue cutting up the log into commercial orders.

Mr. Frear. What proportion of the capacity of the mill was taken
for the Government end of it and what- proportion for the commer-
cial ?

Mr. Scott. Well, that depends entirely on the class of logs you
are working on. If you were putting in a certain amount of clear,
or No. 2 logs, and produced — and it would produce aircraft lumber,
why, we figured that we got about 28 to 30 per cent of cants out of
a clear log, so that would be about 30 per cent, you might say, going
to the Government, out of a clear log, and aoout 70 per cent went
into commercial business.

Mr. Frear. Would that be the same amount of time that would
occur in other mills ?

Mr. Scott. Yes; if the logs were selected and delivered to those
mills.

Mr. Frear. In the Los Angeles mill.

Mr. Scott. In the Port Angeles mill they intended only to cut
spruce logs. We cut fir and spruce.

Mr. Frear. And they would have to take up the commercial end
of it?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. So that the proportion

Mr. Lea. You said Los Angeles. You meant Port Angeles.

Mr. Frear. I meant Port Angeles.

Mr. Scott. They would have to take up the time to cut their com-
mon lumber into commercial sizes.

Mr. Frear. In the same way you were doing it ? In other words,
the capacity of the mills would have been the same, as I understand
you?

Mr. Scott. Yes.

Mr. Frear. Then, what was the necessity for the building of this
Port Angeles mill and the Lake Pleasant mill?

Mr. Scott. In my opinion, there was absolutely no necessity for
building the mills — either one.

Mr. Frear. What was the necessity as represented, so far as you
understood ?

Mr. Scott. They simply wanted to build sawmills, I guess. That
is all I know. We certainly had enough sawmills built on Puget
Sound to cut all the spruce lumber that could be produced in logs or
that the Government wanted. All the Government had to do was to
cammandeer the mill. If a man didn't want to sell his mill to the
Government, all they had to do was commandeer; they had the
power to do it.

Mr. Frear. Was this the situation : The Siems-Carey-Kerbaugh Co.
had the railroad; it is necessary to have a railroad, isn't it, in order
to get your logs?

Mr. ScoTT. Yes ; you have in that special case.

Mr. Frear. And they had the power of the Government behind
them?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. And they were bringing the logs in there, sawing part
of them for public use — Government use — ^under the contract, and
sawing the rest of them for commercial use; that is right, is it?



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910 WAR EXPENDITURES.

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frear. They were given the preference there. Were they ex-
perienced loggers, or what do vou know about them?

Mr. Scott. I never heard of them until they came to this country^
only as railroad builders.

Mr. Frear. Did they claim to have had any knowledge at all?

Mr. Scott. I never talked to them in regard to that. I could not
say.

Mr. Frear. They never sawed any ?

Mr. Scott. Not that I know. The will was never operated, so they
had no experience in that line.

Mr. Frear. The Pleasant Lake mill was never constructed!

Mr. Scott. No, sir.

Mr. Frear. Just laid the foundations?

Mr. Scott. I think part of the foundation was driven there, the
same as the Port Angeles mill ; part of it was constructed ; the ma-
chinery was all there on cars, or a portion of it, at the time the armis-
tice was signed. That was afterwards shipped to Vancouver.

Mr. Frear. Is there anything else you think of

Mr. Scott. No ; I don't think of anything else.

Mr. Frear. The railway that you have been discussing has been
that that you built right there, near Twin?

Mr. Scott. Yes.

Mr. Frear. How does that compare — is that sufficient to carry
the ordinary locomotives?

Mr. Scott. Well, the Milwaukee tracks, or the Milwaukee engines,
sometimes run on our tracks without any trouble. Of course, they
are not suposed to go up in the woods. Our own locomotives haul
our and the Milwaukee empties up, and our engines haul the loads
down.

Mr. Frear. Have vou any Shay engines?

Mr. Scott. We have Shay engines — ^70-ton engines — that is,
three of them are 70-ton engies. We probably built up there 18 or 2Q
miles of railroad in the Twin district; mountainous country.

Mr. Frear. And at the average cost that you have said?

Mr. Scott, From fourteen to sixteen thousand dollars per mile

Mr. Frear. Was that true last year, 1918?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. I think it cost more this year than it did
last year, on account of labor.

Mr. Frear. How many employees do you generally carry in your
business?

Mr. Scott. We have 350 in the woods operation, and about 500
in the sawmill, shingle mill, box factory, and planing mill, operating
two shifts.

Mr. Frear. Did you have any occasion to use soldiers?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; we had soldiers in 1917 and 1918.

Mr. Frear. Got them from the Spruce Production Co. ?

Mr. Scott. Yes.

Mr. Frear. Wliat was the method of contracting tliere— jus*
briefly state; and how many did you have?

Mr. Scott. We had 150 soldiers in the woods.

Mr. Frear. Logging?

Mr. Scott. In the logging end; yes, sir. We applied to the