out by the * 'skinners."
Mr. Frear. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Hyde. The skinners were overloaded ; it was very muddy thjpre
sometimes, and the mudholes were large and deep and the horses
would sink in and they would have to pull them out, and the skinners
would throw out some of the goods.
Mr. Frear. What became of the goods thrown out?
Mr. Hyde. They would stay along the road; sometimes they would
throw them in the bushes. TTiey would tell me they did that because
they wanted to come back.
Mr. Frear. Did you see that yoiu^elf ?
Mr. Hyde. No, su*; I heard that; but I know there were reports
right along that some of these provisions were missing from the
different camps.
Mr. Frear. Did you have anything to do with the checking?
Mr. Hyde. Yes; I would check them up, and our records would
show they had been placed on the trucks and sent out.
Mr. Frear. WTio made complaints ?
Mr. Hyde. Complaints came from the camp clerks.
Mr. Frear. That the goods were not received ?
Mr. Hyde. That they were not received.
Mr. Frear. Then what occurred ?
Mr. Hyde. Then we would look it up, and our records would show
they had been given to the skinners, and Mr. Smith told the clerks so,
and that would be the end of it.
Mr. Frear. What became of the cost-plus contract with regard to
those provisions ?
Mr. Hyde. They would be charged to the Government.
Mr. Frear. They would be charged in favor of Porter Bros, or any
one who had a cost-plus contract, notwithstanding they were not
received ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Fbeab. You said you heard from the skinners that they would
throw stuff off. Wliat became of any of these goods ? Were they
recovered ?
Mr. Hyde. No.
147155— 19— VOL 1 38
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566 WAB BXPENDITUBBS.
Mr. Fbear. Do you know about the quantity, as far as you could
hear?
Mr. Hyde. Sometimes a hundred to two hundred pounds would he
thrown off.
' Mr. Fbear. Of what?
Mr. Hyde. Usually they would throw off flour supplies; thev
would open a bag and let the flour run out, so that they would not
be discovered.
Mr. Fbeab. How did you gather that was the reason — what thej
told you ?
Mr. Hyde. That is what the skinners told me at nisht.
Mr. Fbeab. And they were the men who drove the teams* were
they?
Mr. Hyde. Yes; because they were afraid that if they came bark
with this stuff undelivered to the camps they could not get .home
without being mmished, and they did it to get back.
Mr, Fbeab. What kind of conditions were there ?
Mr. Hyde. The roads were very poor at that time. They had just
thrown brush on them. There was an old road that they used.
,Mr. Fbeab. What did thev use — trucks ?
Mr. Hyde. They used sleds.
Mr. Fbeab. For snow ?
Mr. Hyde. No; the sleds just went over the mud.
Mr. Fbeab. How far were those camps from your place, generally
Mr. Hyde. The first one was about 1^ miles.
Mr. Fbeab. And the farthest ?
Mr. Hyde. About 11 miles. Of course, when the farthest one wa>
constructed we had the railroad running.
Mr. F^EAB. And they did not use the sleds then ?
Mr. Hyde. Not after that.
Mr. Fbeab. How many of these camps were there I
Mr. Hyde. There were B, C, D, E, and F.
Mr. Fbeab. How large a force did you have at your place i
Mr. Hyde. Over a thousand men.
Mr. Fbeab. At that one place ?
Mr. Hyde. Over a thousand men at all the camps.
Mr. Fbeab. And what were they engaged in doing ?
Mr. Hyde. Constructing the railroad^ mostly, and felling apnKA
Mr. Fbeab. What was the railroad thev were constnictmgt
Mr. Hyde. First we laid corduroy roads. There were planb that
would come from Hammond Bros. Lumber Co.
Mr. Fbear. Where were they ?
Mr. Hyde. They had one lumber company and camp there.
Mr. Frear. Where were they with reference to Clatsop t
Mr. Hyde. Four miles northwest. Then there was another lumber
camp of the Hammond Lumber Co. also.
Mr. Frear. What railroad was built?
Mr. Hyde. The railroad was built from headquarters to two *i
those camps, from Camp 1-A at Clatsop.
Mr. Frear. Were supplies carried over it?
Mr. Hyde. Not until later. It took a long time to get the spruce
out.
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AVIATION. 567
Mr. Freab. I do not think I knew about that railroad before-..
How long a road was it ?
Mr. Hyde. There were 1 1 miles of the main line, and 22 miles of
branch lines.
Mr. Frear. Was that oompleted at the time of the armistice ?
Mr. Hyde. No.
Mr. Frear. Did they have any equipment ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes; about 11 locomotives there.
Mr. Frear. And cars also ?
Mr. Hyde. And a number of cars.
Mr. Frear. For the purpose of bringing out spruce ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes; and bringing in rails also.
Mr. Frear. Who had that contract ? Do you know ?
Mr. Hyde. I imderstand it was Porter Bros.
Mr. Frear. They were the people who were getting out the spruce ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. That was on a cost-plus basis, you understand ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes, sir.
Mr. Frear. What did you observe while you were there in addition
to what you have stated in regard to the handling of supplies, or in
regard to the performance of the contracts ?
Mr. Hyde. 1 remember that road was laid when we first came there,
about February 4, and about a day or two after that, February 5 or
6, 1918, they commenced building this corduroy road, and they got
the planks from the Hammond Lumber Co., and the planks came in
4 and 5-inch thicknesses, and 8, 10, 12, 14, and 16 feet lengths, and
we would lay off a distance of about a mile and a half.
Mr. Frear. For logging purposes ?
Mr. Hyde. The intention wag to move all the spruce out with
automobile trucks, and the Government sent down 12 trucks at first,
but later on they had twice that number.
Mr. Frear. They used that plank road ?
Mr. Hyde. These planks were all made by hand, and it took from
3 to 5 minutes to cut a plank to conform to the width required.
Mr. Frear. What was done with those planks afterwards, were
they used ?
Mr. Hyde. They were taken up after the railroad was laid.
Mr. Frear. Was any use made of them by the trucks ?
Mr. Hyde. At the verv beginning the trucks ran out part way to
camp, within about a mile and a half or a little bit less.
i&. Frear. That might have been necessary for the purpose they
originaUy expected to use them for ?
Mr. Htde. That was necessary to be done.
Mr. Frear. They expected originally to use the trucks ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes; because there was no intention of laying the rail-
road at first.
Mr. Frear. That was before the purpose of laying the railroad
had been formulated ?
Mr. Hyde. I think so.
Mr. Frear. What was the purpose of using hand labcr ?
Mr. Hyde. I do not know, unless it was that they had enough men;
they had more men than they needed.
mr. Frear. How many men did they have ?
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568 WAR EXPENDITURES.
Mr. Hyde. In the beginning thev had over 200 men; near about
200 men.
Mt, Frear. How did they get these planks, were they sawed
originallv ?
Mr. Htde. In those lengths of 8, 10, 12, 14, and 16 feet; and the
road required only 8 feet to be used, but sometimes we would cut it
12 and 14 feet for use in certain places.
Mr. Frear. You spoke of hewing them ?
Mr. Hyde. We sawed them with a buck saw.
Mr. Frear. I thought you spoke of hewing them, before.
Mr. Hyde. No ; I did not say anything about tewing. They wew
just cut across, making them to conform to the width of the rt>ad.
Mr. Frear. Have you any way of determining the value of the
goods that were 'thrown away, as you say; that is what would be the
diiference between the cost of the goods as shipped by you and a^
received by the various camps? There ought to have been some
account kept of that, ought there not ?
Mr. Hyde. There ought to have been, but there was no accotmt
kept, because Mr. Smith simply told the clerks of the subcamps th*t
they were delivered, and the matter was ended.
Mr. Frear. Did they not report to you what was not delivered ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. And the difference between what they would repon
and what you had shipped was the loss that would go to the Got-
emment ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes, sir.
Mr. Frear. Was there no way to check that up ?
Mr. Hyde. It was not checked up as far as I know.
Mr. Frear. Have you any means of determining what that
would be ?
Mr. Hyde. No.
Mr. Frear. Would it mount into hundreds or thousands of dollars '
Mr. Hyde. I do not think it would run into thousands; it miglt
run into hundreds.
Mr. Frear. I notice in your letter which you sent to me ther*
is some suggestion about macinaws that were used bv the men.
Mr. Hyde. As to the clothing that was sold to the men, Port#r
Bros, sold clothing to the men.
Mr. Frear. They had the contract, and they sold clothing **â–
the men ?
Mr. Hyde. To the men ; yes.
Mr. Frear. Who furnished them the clothing?
Mr. Hyde. They purchased the clothing from different people
I understand that was not connected with the contract, but the^
did it just as an accommodation.
Mr. Frear. What was it about the selling of the macinaws t^
the men ?
Mr. Hyde. They overcharged the men, and the men complain#«i
quite a little.
Mr. Frear. Describe what the overcharge was.
Mr. Hyde. A number of macinaws were sold to the men for f^
and $10, and later on the men found a $5 price mark inside of the
macinaws, and they would bring them down and complain, and thev
would tell their commanding officers, and the commanding officeis
would complain.
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AVIATIOK. ^ 569
Mr. Fr£ar. What was done ?
Mr. Hyi>e. Nothing. They would tell them the}^ could not get
them any cheaper.
Mr. Frear. That was true as to all the macinaws sold ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes; and Mr. Smith told us to tell the men that we
charged them a Uttle bit less than the retail stores charged for the
macinaws.
Mr. Frear. Did you have these macinaws for sale ?
Ifr. Hyde. I did.
Mr. Frear. What were you charging ?
Mr. Hyde. Mr. Smith fixed the price. He tried to ascertain what
the price at Seaside was.
Mr. Frear. What was the price as compared with the price fixed
by Porter Bros. ?
Mr. Hyde. It was about the same.
Mr. Frear. He fixed the price at $10 ?
Mr. Hyde. At $10 if they were selling for $10 at Seaside or other
places.
Mr. Frear. Irrespective of what they were purchased for by the
Government ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes. I understand they were supposed to sell to the
men at 10 per cent above cost, but instead of doing that they charged
a little less than the retail stores did at Seaside.
Mr. Frear. Have you any idea as to what the additional charge
was over the cost price: could you determine from the marks upon
the goods in any way.
Ifr. Hyde. I could just guess at it; it would just be two or three
dollars in each case.
Mr. Frear. On each mackinaw?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. That was charged to the soldiers ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes; and deducted from their pay at the end of the
month, and there was much complaint because many did not know
what they were going to be charged and bought more than they
needed, whereas if they had known what they would have been
charged they would have bought less.
Mr. Frear. You say they had 11 locomotives on this 11-mile
Hne?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. Were they all in use ?
Mr. Hyde. No; they were out of commission most of the time.
They were obsolete and old.
Mr. Frear. Do you know who they were purchased from ?
Mr. Hyde. From Porter Bros. They were used on another job.
Mr. Frear. They were purchased by the Government for Porter*
Bros, at this cost plus ?
Mr. HYde. I think so; I am not positive.
Mr. Frear. What kind of locomotives were they ?
Mr. Hyde. Shay and Heisler locomotives.
Mr. Frear. Were they used for hauling cars ?
Mr. Hyde. They were the standard locomotive gear drive. They
were driven on one side, and I have been told by engineers that
they should have had a gear drive on both sides.
Mr. Frear. Porter Bros, had a contract for taking out the timber^
and they used them to take the timber out under their contract?
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570 WAR EXPENDITURES.
Mr. Hyde. They were out of commission most of the time, W-
cause they were too old.
Mr., Frear. Because they were too old, or because the business
had not been developed suniciently ?
Mr. Hyde. They were too old. They were being repaired most
of the time.
Mr. Frear. Wliat do you know, if anything, regarding the ques-
tion of the crews on the line for surveying the roads; was there aiiy
difference between the men on the line and the surveying parties ?
Mr. Hyde. There was a lot of friction between" the surveying
parties and the foremen.
Mr. Frear. You state what you know about that, and we will
determine its relevancy.
Mr. Hyde. We would lay our grades accurately
Mr. Frear. Who was that ?
Mr. Hyde. The surveying party. After March 1 I was assigned
to the surveying party and from March 1, I think, we were sent back
to Vancouver aoout December 15, 1918.
Mr. Frear. What grades were you laying?
Mr. Hyde. We surveyed the grades oi this main line, and the
branches, about 11 miles of main line, and 22 miles from Gatsop
and these various subcamps.
Mr. Frear. What occurred in regard to the difference ?
Mr. Hyde. We would lay our lines, and the drivers would come
along and run over the marking stakes and tear them up, and we
wou»d re^ay them sometimes four or five times, and two or three
times we laid some as often as seven times.
Mr. Frear. Was that done purposely ?
Mr. Hyde. It was done because the foremen were inclined t^*
dispute our survey.
Mr. Frear. Was there any difference in judgment, so far as camf
to your knowledge, between the foremen and yourselves as to layinfT
the grade?
^, Hyde. Sometimes the foremen would not follow the center line.
Mr. Frear. Why not ?
Mr. Hyde. Because it was probably hard to curve the rails ac-
cording to the center line, and sometimes they would say the sur-
veyor was wrong, and they would use their own Judgment.
Mr. Frear. What was the effect of that difference of opinion,
did it interfere with the efficiency of the railroad ?
Mr. Hyde. In some cases it di^ not, and sometimes it did. Some-
times we had to straighten it out after it had been laid. Sometime^
the trains were derailed, and I have been told by other sun^eyo^
that the reason was because they had not used the original line.
Mr. Frear. These were employees of the company, I take it ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. And you were an employee of the Government f
Mr. Hyde. Yes; 1 was in the Army, although, the man at thf
head of the surveying department was a civilian. The last two '>r
three months they made him a captain.
Mr. Frear. I notice a suggestion about a difference between ihr
rails, that thev varied in size. That might come about becaa'»o of x^
supplies that "Porter Bros, had on hand ?
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AVIATION. 571
Mr. Hyde. And because they were furnished by different con-
tractors. They had contractors working under them who would
furnish their own raib.
Mr. Fbeak. That was under their contract ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes, sir.
Mr. Frear. Were there any spur tracks or side tracks that were
not necessary ?
Mr. Hyde. I think some of them were not necessary. Sometimes
we would see only two or three spruce trees where there was a spur.
They may have had some particular reason for building them there.
Mr, Frear. The theory of any such criticism would be that if they
were making such side tracks it would be to their advantage to build
them there, to build unnecessary spurs or side tracks ?
Mr. Hyde. That was a rumor among the camps there. We used
to have a little saying: "Another spruce, another spur,'' because
sometimes we could only see one or two spruce at the head of a spur.
Then in one case we ran a spur into Crown Willamette Camp. This
company also had a track for their own spruce. This is nearsay,
however.
Mr. Frear. Did you see this spur there ?
Air. Hyde. Yes; I ran the spur in. There was friction between
the Crown Willamette Co. ana Mr. Yeon, the head of the Spruce
Division. I understand there was some friction between them, and
he told them that unless they could get out a certain amount of
spruce he would run in a spur, and later he did.
Mr. Frear. Who paid for the spur that was run in ?
Mr. Hyde. The Government. That was run in through Porter
Bros.
Mr. Frear. As a part of their cost-plus contract ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes; and the object was to take the spruce out from
the Crown Willamette Co.'s property.
Mr. Frear. What about that rivmg ?
Mr. Hyde. At the beginning all this spruce was split up into two
or three different parts, and it was held for several months, because
the railroad was not completed, and when the. road was ready they
found notches in the spruce.
Mr. Frear. The criticism is that the timber was rived before it
was sent out.
Mr. Htde. They determined later on that it could not be used at all.
Mr. Frear. Dia they bring out this timber that was rived ?
Mr. Hyde. They took out some of it; I think very little. Most of
it stayed in the woods.
Mr. Frear. That was taken out and to a great extent rived in the
woods ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. Who did that work?
Mr. Hyde. A man by the name of Disk.
Mr. Frear. But who had the work done ?
Mr. Hyde. Porter Bros.
Mr. Frear. They had the contract for the riving, and also the
contract for the transportation ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. In other words, the critisism is because they did the
riving before there was any means of getting the logs out of the
woods?
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672 WAR EXPENDITURES.
Mr. Hyde. Yes, sir.
Mr. Frear. Y^fl'^i ©Is® have you in mind as connected with this
matter 1 What period were you out there ?
Mr. Hyde. From February 4, 1918, until about December 5, 191s.
Mr. Frear. Were you at Clatsop all the time?
Mr. Hyde. I went to the farther camp. I was at Camp F. when
we finished; the last camp.
Mr. Frear. But you were near one of these four camps you
mentioned ?
Mr. Hyde. I would always be at the farthest camp.
Mr. Frear. What was your position t
.Mr. Hyde. I was a private.
Mr. Frear. Were you a working lawyer before you went into the
service ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. And you took a position as private ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. And you remained throughout the war ?
Mr. Hyde. I worked through the entu-e period.
Mr. Frear. Were the soldiers out there paid the same as the
civilian emplovees ; the civilian labor ?
Mr. Hyde. No; the civilians were paid more.
Mr. Frear. What were the civilians paid for the same kind of labor
that you were performing?
Mr. Hyde. The civilians were all foremen and they were getting
$8 and $10 a day.
Mr. Frear. What were the soldiers getting ?
Mr. Hyde. From $3.60 up to $5 or $6.
Mr. Frear. What were you getting?
Mr. Hyde. I was getting $4.
Mr. Frear. Out of that what did you have to pay ?
Mr. Hyde. I had to pay $1.05 a day to Porter Bros, for my meals
Ml. Frear. That was an arbitrary price they charged J*^
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. What else did you have to pay i
Mr. Hyde. I had to pay for my clothes, my shoes, and slickers.
Mr. Frear. What did you sleep in ?
Mr. Hyde. In tents, on cots.
Mr. Frear. Thev furnish tents and cots?
Mr. Hyde. No; the Government furnished the cots. We took rot-
with us.
Mr. Frear. The Government furnished the tents I
Mr. Hyde. Porter Bros. did. I understand that Porter Bros, got
them from the Government. They weie the same tents that had
been used at Vancouver.
Mr. Frear. Was there any criticism about the treatment the
soldiers had there as to caring for the men by Porter Bn». or any
other contractors?
Mr. Hyde. They often complained they were overcharged for their
meals, and they did not get credit for meals that weie lost We
would not get credit unless we missed three meals, and whenever we
lost five meals we only got credit for three.
Mr. Frear. What else have you in mind about your expeiienre
out there? By the way, riving is splitting of logs instead of havin(r
them sawed, in order to get the ^ams straight?
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AVIATION. 573
Mr. Hyde. Yes. Most of the grain was warped.
Mr. Fbbar. Was there anything eke you wanted to speak of?
Mr. Hyde. I remember 1 acre tnat was cleared near the reservoir
out there, I guess, about 2^ miles from Camp A. They had 50 men
working two weeks clearing 1 acre, which must have cost several
thousand dollars.
Mr. Frear. What was that done for?
Mr. Hyde. Taking out the stumps.
Mr. Frear. For ^at purpose ?
Mr. Hyde. For the purpose of running the main line of the railroad
through later on.
Mr. Frear. You say that cost several thousand dollars to run the
railroad through?
Mr. Hyde* Yes, sir.
Mr. Frear. Was that done by Porter Bros?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. What was their purpose ?
Mr. Hyde. I understand it was because they did not have enough
teams to pull out those stumps by machinery.
Mr. Frear. They were paid on a cost plus basis for all this work ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes.
Mr. Frear. Where was this ?
Mr. Hyde. The reservoir was about 2i miles from Camp 1-A.
Mr. Frear. That is where you were, at Clatsop?
Mr. Hyde. At that time I was out at Camp C. I had come out
in surveying from there on.
^fr. Frear. Where was Camp 1 ? ^
Mr. Hyde. Camp 1 was at Clatsop.
Mr. Frear. How long were they engaged in tearing up that acre,
and how many men dia they employ ?
Mr. Hyde. They employed approximately 50 men for two weeks.
Mr. Frear. Were you there ?
Mr. Hyde. I was there almost every day. We talked about it,
and Mr. Ktmey, who was at the head of the surveying department,
tried to find out what that acre cost, and finally he said it was between
$2,000 and $3,000, and he said the maximum price ought to be $250.
Mr. Frear. That relates to the criticism as to the Porter Bros.'
method of performing a contract ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes. There was also criticism, because they did not
use steam shovels. They did all the excavating by hand.
Mr. Frear. Did they have steam shovels ?
Mr. Hyde. Toward the end they had a steam shovel.
Mr. Frear. In other words the criticism you make is that they
were not properly equipped to do the work tney had undertaken ?
Mr. Hyde. Yes. They also used dynamite very freely out there.
They would put four to seven sticks of dynamite under a stump of a
tree. I understand it is necessary to put only two or three at the
most.
Mr. Frear. How did that come about ?
Mr. Hyde. Through the carelessness of the foremen.
Mr. Frear. Or the ignorance of the man who was doing the work ?
Mr. Hype. It was oue to the foremen. They were not checked
In their use of dynamite.
Mr. Frear. Have you anything else in mind ?
Mr. Hyde. No, sir.
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574 WAB BXPEKmrUBBS.
Mr. Frear. I wish to state that it is agreed that the furtiier
examination by other members of the committee will be taken up
later, Mr. Hyde, in order to permit us to examine other witnesses
who are present at this time. If you will wait, Mr. Lea wants to ask
some questions of you later on.
TESTIMONY OF MB. CHABLES B. SLIGH.
(The witness was duly sworn by Mr. Frear.)
Mr. Frear. Where do you Uve, Mr. SUgh?
Mr. Sliqh. Grand Rapids, Mich.
Mr. Frear. How long have you lived there ?
Mr. Sliqh. I was bom there.
Mr. Frear. What is your business ?
Mr. Sliqh. I am a manufacturer of furniture.
Mr. Frear. How large a business have you there ?
Mr. Sliqh. We employ 800 men.
Mr. Frear. At the time of the beginning of the war, you were
engaged in the manufacture of furniture ?
Mr. Sliqh. Yes, sir.
Mr. Frear. Now, kindljr go on, in your own way and tell the
committee your own expenence, and we will interject such questions
as may occur to us.
Mr. Sliqh. I have a memorandiun here, and if you should like to
have me do so I can use it.
lifr. Frear. Just take your own time, and in your own way make
your statement.
Mr. Sliqh. Previous to the declaration of war I had taken training
at Plattsburg, and I was anxious to get into active service, and haa
gone to Washington in April, as soon as war was declared, in hopes
of being commissioned a Ueutenant colonel to raise a regiment in
Michigan, and the bishop of western Michigan went with me, as he
was anxious to become chaplam of the regiment. At that time I
met Dr. Stratton, of the Bureau of Standards, who was having great
difficulty in getting spruce for testing purposes. I told him I could
{;et it for him, and I telegraphed to my son-in-law, who was in the
umber business at Seattle, and I had the spruce expressed to our
mills, and then they expressed it to Washington. This was done so