Mr. MoRLEY. By that you mean the Spruce Co. 1
Mr. Frear. Spruce.
Mr. MoRLEY. Yes.
Mr. Frear. Those ran — to what extent would be the longest in
your judgment, as you recollect from your work and your experience'
Mr. MoRLEY. I would rather not go into that detail. You can get
it from a definite source, and it is just taking up your time for nie to
give you that sort of information.
Mr. Frear. Yes; I thought maybe we could get that in advance
because people have a very indefinite understanding. Now, is there
anything that occurs to you particularly that you would like to
speak to the committee about, that you can give us any information
aoout or desire to ?
Mr. MoRLEY. It seems to me that your conunittee ought to get
this acciu^ate information which would give you details of the cost
and expert opinion in regard to the method and means emploved. all
that sort of thing, from men who were actually familiar with those
operations. While you were in the East here, it seems to me yon
ought to have called Col. Breeze, who is a man of very extraordinan*
knowledge, in my opinion.
Mr. Frear. lie is where, Washington — Charleston, W. Va. t
Mr. Morley. Yes.
Mr. Frear. Yes.
Mr. Morley. I think you ought to hear Col. ilitchcock.
Mr. Frear. He is out there.
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Mr. MoELEY. No; Col. Hitchcock is in Cleveland, and from what
has been said here about Col. Hitchcock, he is a very patriotic man,
he made sacrifices in going out to the coast, he was simply a man
who had had military experience, an Army man, and the commission
had known of his old Army experience and got him to come out
there, and the colonel went out there — he was a captain to start
with, then major, then lieutenant colonel, but worked v;ary hard, and
he can tell you his side of many things that have been said about it.
Mr. Frear. Now, I will just ask you if you will be sure to remind
Col. Hitchcock that the committee will be glad to hear from him on
our return. I speak of this because it is very difficult for us to
remember all these parties, and we certainly want to have all the
light we can get from him and everyone else, and if you will do that
as a personal matter, so long as you are in the same town, we shall
appreciate it. I supposed he was out there, and expected to call him
out in Portland.
Mr. MoRLEY. There are some things, in view of what I have
heard here, and from Mai. Sligh, who has testified to what occurs to
me as running through tne committee's mind that I ought to speak
of before I leave.
Mr. Frear. Now, I think this is proper. Of course when you
started, you started with an estimate of Col. Slights testimony, which
I felt was the province of the committee, and no one else, but if you
have anything to state in regard to any particular facts, of course the
committee would be glad to get it, just the same as if you were
trying a law suit yourself. We want to get the information you can
give to us, and we will form the best judgment we can. At this time
we are desirous of getting it before we start to the coast, because
there is an infinite variety of matters to come up, and our time is
necessarily limited, and anything we can get at this time would be
enlightening.
}&, MoELEY. Of com^e, when I first went out there I knew nothing
at all about the enterprise, had heard nothing about it at all, went
out there absolutely ignorant of it, but just as speedily as I could I
informed myself as well as I could about all tne matters then in
progress, so I could give adequate advice. I was in pretty close
touch with things, and I think I formed a pretty fair opmion of the
enterprise. If you want to hear me say something about it, I will.
Mr. Maoee. Now, I am going to suggest, the committee is not
interested in personalities, we are only interested in facts, but if there
are any further facts, which you have in mind which you think will
be of benefit to the committee, we would like to have them, with
reference to the attempt of the Government to get spruce on the
coast.
Mr. MoRLEY. Of course, so far as you wanting only facts is con-
cerned, I gather the impression from listening to Maj. Slights testi-
mony that you <were listening to opinions as well, general statements
of opinion.
\lr. Maoee. I do not understand that that is the purpose of the
committee; as I understand, the committee is after tne facts.
Mr. LffiA. Of course, we have received a good many expressions of
opinion from men who did not know the facts, and suggesting what
might be found out. Of course, I think, to some extent, Maj. Sligh
testified that way.
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Mr. Maoee. The witnesses have been given considerable latitude
in relating to what they profess to know about the situation, but the
conunittee is not interested in personalities. Its work, so far as it
can perform it, is to endeavor to get the facts of the situation.
Mr. MoRLET. Well, I understand the facts with respect to the enter-
prise generaUy out there, but of course, so far as it pertains to a period
Srior to my connection with it, it is a matter of opinion wnidi I
erived from my observation while I was there and from my assom-
tion and intercourse with men on the coast who were identified with
it, and were — and knew about it.
Mr. Maoee. Well, do you know whether or not the Government
obtained any spruce from the Olympic Park ?
Mr. MoRLEY. No.
Mr. Maoee. As the result of building this railroad by Smith
Carried Kirbaugh Co. ?
Mr. MoRLEY. They did not. But if I can be permitted to proceed
with that preliminary statement that what I am testifying to in
regard to the conditions prior to my arrival there, is simply the result
of my observation in seemg the situation as it was when I got there,
and my talk with the men who were there — of course I was not there,
so I can not testify as a witness might in court, from actual obserra-
tion, of the particular fact in question, but I
Mr. Magee. The way I view it is, something you may have heard
some one else say. Of course you are a lawyer and I am a lawyer
and what you may have heard some one else sav is merely hearsay
and would not be testimony relative to a fact. Now, what we woulH
like to get are the facts. We assume that we can get them. You
spoke something about the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Bailroad
being extended some 12 or 14 imles; was that an extension inde-
pendent of the 38 miles of road to the Olympus area
Mr. MoRLEY. No.
Mr. Maoee. Or was it part of that 38 miles?
Mr. MoRLEY. It was part of these 38 miles, I would not say the
exact distance, but may I proceed along with a sort of a narrative
which I understand you really want, to get my views about the
situation out there.
Mr. Magee. Yes; but all I want to say, you started off with a severe
criticism, personalities against Maj. Shgh; the committee is not inter*
ested in these personalities at all; what we are interested in isgettiDf
the facts, and we want only the facts, because we have been authorised
to investigate and get the facts and report them to the House, and I
assume the committee is not interested in personalities at all. That
is true ?
Mr. MoRLEY. I didn't suppose it was.
Mr. Lea. Yes; that is true. Of course, I would think if you ha^^
anything — any facts within your knowledge that should lead us to
form a contrary opinion from what you have resulting from the
other gentleman's testimony, I would be glad to hear it.
Mr. MoRLEY. All that I was prefacing ibis by, would you like me
to go ahead with a narrative as to what I saw and observed out there,
and the conclusions I reached about the enterprise in a general wat,
without simply responding to any particular question t
Mr. Magee. Any fact based on your observation that you knov
about with reference to the situation there the committee would be
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AVIATION. 648
glad to hear. I think that covers it as nearly as I can say. In
other words, the members of this committee do not feel prejudiced
in this matter either one way or the other; their minds are open and
the only desire, so far as I know, of the entire committee is to get the
actual facts in the premises in order that they may report these facts
to the House and to the coimtry
Mr. MoRLET. When Gen. Disque was sent out to the Pacific coast,
he took charge of the Government program in connection with the
production of spruce.
Mr. Magee. That was about when, as nearly as ypu can tell?
Mr. MoRLET. I think he came out and made the preliminary sur-
vej of the situation in October, 1917. At that time neither the
United States nor the Allies were getting the spruce that was required
for the areoplane program. The spruce that they were getting, so
far as my knowledge of the thing is concerned, and this, I nave
gained from talking with the men who were engaged in the spruce
business out there, was what was called G list spruce, and that was
a very imsatisfactory article, and they were getting a lot of that,
and with the aeroplane program bein^ so vital as it was, of course it
became essential to venr materially increase that production both
in quantity and in quality, and the Army, originally through the
Signal Corps undertook to do that. Of course the labor situation
is serious a» you all know out there. It has been said that the Gov-
ernment might have undertaken to hold that labor situation, coimter-
act that by simply using troops as a guard, police to protect the labor,
which might have meant serious conflict possibly out there. Of
course those questions are political somewhat, but it was a question
of judgment as to whether that was the proper thing to do, and
apparentlv the War Department and administration thought not.
I am not here to pass in judgment upon that, but at any rate, if that
was not the program to use the military to overawe the labor out
there and keep it in control, some other program was necessary, and
that was the program that Gen. Disque imdertook so far as handling
labor was concerned, and as a result of that, the Loyal Legion (h
Loggers and Lumbermen was formed which controlled the situation
out there in a peaceful way, and enabled production on a large scale
to go forward, and from my observation I think that was a wonderful
Eiece of work, fine piece of work, for which Gen. Disque ought to
ave credit.
Something has been said here in testimony in regard to paying
soldiers the civilian wage. There are a great many ways to Iook
at that question. It appeared to be necessary in order to increase
the production to send a large number of soldiers out there and have
them work in the woods and in the sawmills and work alongside of
civilians in many instances. There again was a question of policy
as to what to do, whether to use soldiers and simply give them the
soldier pay, have them working alongside of men who were getting
civilian wage, as to whether that would seriously disorganize labor
conditions out there, which of course was important. The authorities
in Washington evidently considered that it was the better policy to
pay the soldiers when they were worldng in and alongside of civilian
operations the civilian wage, and I want to say just this for the
soldiers that were out there — of course there may oe exceptions to
this — but I think that as a whole the soldiers all want to see active
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service, all wanted to go to France and would have much prrfened
actual military service in the fighting line or any kind of military
service in France to the service tney were doing there, although they
were getting civilian wage. Of course in their work in the mill and
lumber camps they had to have additional money in order to eaoip
themselves and buy the kind of clothing that they needed, kino of
shoes, everything of that kind, and if they had not had that addi-
tional wage the Government would have had to furnish that addi-
tional equipment to them. Conmlications would have also areen
with respect to their being fed. They had to be fed along with the
other men and that would have meant an additional payment.
Mr. Maoee. Why were they put in there at this occupation t
Mr. MoRLEY. Beg your pardon ?
Mr. Maoee. Why were they placed in there at this occupation. d««
you know?
Mr. MoKLEY. Because they had to have that additional amount »(
labor to carry out the work.
Mr. Maoee. They could not get sufficient civilian labor i
Mr. MoRLEY. They could not get sufficient civilian labor out ttierv;
they needed the additional labor that the soldiers brought out, and of
course they are very much easier to handle, too; and now this shoul«l
be remembered, there were not any 30,000 soldiers out there to bepn
with. It is talked of here as though the spruce production division
had 30,000 men to handle right along. Oi course that is not true.
To start in with, there were very few, and they kept increasing, and
when some men were needed they were sent on out, but it was only
right at the end that the number of men ever got to the number of
30,000.
Mr. Maoee. You mean the number of soldiers ?
Mr. MoRLEY. The number of soldiers. When I first went out there
the number was very much less. I don't think there were many
more than half that when I first got out there.
Mr. Maoee. How man}"^ civilians were there employed there t^
compared with the number of soldiers ?
Mr. MoRLEY. You mean in the whole enterprise ?
Mr. Maoee. Yes; in the whole enterprise. You say the maximum
you think was 30,000 soldiers ?
Mr. MoRLEY. Well, I should suppose in the lumber industry all
through the Pacific coast there were over 100,000 workmen.
Mr. Maoee. In the spruce situation ?
Mr. MoRLEY. No ; just in the lumber industry generally. Of eooiv
there was an enormous amount of fir.
Mr. Maoee. I mean employed by the War Department in getun;
out spruce. You say that you think finally the number of soldier^
increased to 30,000 ?
Mr. Morley. Yes.
Mr. Maoee. That is in the spruce situation ?
Mr. Morley. Yes; that is offhand, yes.
Mr. Magee. Now, how many civilians would you say were rtu-
ployed by the Government in getting out spruce J
Mr. Morley. Of course, the Government did not employ ihe»
directly. You asked me how many men were employed In p^*-
ducing the material of Government purchase.
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AVIATION. 645
Mr, Maobe. Through the spruce production division, and I
assume later by the spruce proauction corporation.
Mr. MoRLEY. The Government did not employ civilians except
perhaps in a few instances here and there. The civilians working m
the industry were working for private parties who were selling their
material to the Government.
Mr. Maoee. Were there any civilians there working for the Gov-
ernment or governmental agencies ?
Mr. MoRLEY. Very few.
Mr. Maoee. So that those working under the Government then
were practically all soldiers; is that right?
Mr. MoRLEY. Yes; but you must remember that these soldiers
were working for contractors and for private concerns, except in so
far as they were in barracks at Vancouver. When the men first
came out there they would get military training and were assembled
in the cantonment at Vancouver and as they needed men they were
sent out into the woods.
Mr. Maoee. Working for private corporations ?
Mr. Morley. Working for private corporations that had cost plus
contracts and were practically Government agencies.
Mr. Magee. That is the 30,000 you referred to ?
Mr. Morley. Yes.
Mr. Maoee. Then were they exempted from military service by
the Government and permitted to accept this private employment?
Mr. Morley. No, no; they were soldiers under military discipline,
and soldiers of the United States, and got their soldier pay, ana they
were simply paid, in addition to that, an amount by the private
contractor to make up the regular civilian wage.
Mr. Magee. That is, the private contractor paid for the diflference
between the civilian wage and the wage of the soldier that each
received from the Government ?
Mr. Morley. Yes; and then the private contractor paid to the
United States the amount of the solaier pay, so that the contractor
had to pay the regular going wage for the labor, and reimbursed the
United States for the amoimt ot soldier pay which they paid to the
soldiers.
Mr. Magee. So the Government did not incur any expense ?
Mr. Morley. No.
Mr. Magee. Did not incur any expense by reason of the soldiers
working in getting out spruce there ?
Mr. Morley. No, no ; not except in so far as the soldiers were oper-
ating directly as soldiers. Theie was a distinction made, and a very
difficult distmction to make, with respect to the soldiers who were
working in production and therefore got the civilian w^e and those
who were strictly military and got the soldier pay. For example,
all the men working at headquarters were all simply enlisted and
got their i egular soldier pay, and the men who were out in the field
who were directly acting in the military capacity in connection with
production, in connection with the various duties of the military
units, simply drew their soldier pay. It was only where the men
were engaged directly in production and were paid through a con-
tractor or private individual, so that otherwise they would have come
into competition with civilian labor that they were paid the regulai-
civilian wage. Of course, they were working under circumstances
147155— 19— VOL 1 43
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646 WAB EXFEHDITUBES.
where their expenses were very much greater, and they needed that
additional wage in order to support themselves.
Mr. Magee. Do you know whether the soldiers who worked in
that way had any particular training or experience in getting out
spruce ?
Mr. MoRLEY. Some of them had, some of them had not, but they
very readUy learned, and it was quite remarkable how proficient
they got; but so far as the men were concerned they did not
want to be there. They were obliged to be there, thej were sent
there simply as soldiers; it was part of their military routme and part
of their duty that they had to be there, but they all wanted to be
somewhere else, and I will never forget the scene on the floor at
Vancouver Barracks when some 10,000 men were centered there and
Mr. Ryan, who was then director of aircraft production, made the
annoimcement that Secretary Baker assured him and his men that
a regiment would be completely organized, speedily organized, frt^m
the division to go to France overseas, and just as soon as the men
could be spared regiment after regiment would be, and there would be
absolute assurance one regiment would be organized and sent over
speedily, and such a cheer went up from these men; they were simjJy
beside themselves with deUght. One of the most difficult things we
had was to keep up the morale both of officers and men who were
out there doing that hard work, that drudgery, in the rain and mud
working with ml their might to keep them up to that work when the}
all wanted to be over in France as soldiers, so that from the soldier^
standpoint thepajrment of civihan's wage was not any easy mone\.
ahvtmng of that Kind.
Mr. ALvGEE. Your observation
Mr. MoRLEY. They preferred the other.
Mr. Magee. Was tnat they were those employed to meet the
demands for labor, doing work ?
Mr. Morley. Yes; they were needed out there, and it seemed to >h»
desirable that when thej^ came into conditions where their lab«»r
would be in direct competition with civilian labor that they ought to
be paid the civilian wage.
Mr. Magee. Now, in getting out this spruce, what was done »»u:
there under yoiu* observation ?
Mr. Morley. Now, I started in to say how the production wa#
very meager originally.
Mr. Magee. Y ou went out there when, Major i
Mr. Morley. I went out there the 1st of July.
Mr. Magee. Were they shipping any spruce or not at that time '
Mr. Morley. They were shipping at that time large quantities
because we had not gotten under way, but originally before the ArmT
went out there and took charge, ana by the Army I mean the Arniv
as it was ultimatelv organized, they were getting this G list stul?.
that was simply sold and picked up by brokers, and the Allies arjo
the United States were of course competing with each other for the
spruce, and it was only the spruce tnat came out as a by-prcKlui ;
from the general lumber production out there that was availaMr.
Of course it was a serious proposition as to what should be d*»ne
to increase that production, and that was what Gen. Disqu^ founo
when he went out there.
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AVIATION. 647
Mr. Magee. Was that G list lixmber suitable for aircraft con-
struction ?
Mr. itoRLEY. A very small percentage.
Mr. Magee. What percentage would you say ?
Mr. MoRLEY. I would sav I do not suppose there was 10 per cent
of the G list stuff
Mr. Magee. Was that stuff being shipped to the east when you
went out there ?
Mr. MoRLEY. Not when I went out there. Previous to that time
1 think, if your committee wiD examine into the complaints made
from Grand Rapids factories and others, they were referring to the
G list stuff being produced before the production got unoer way.
That was shipped in meagre quantities, increasing in price right along,
and at best it was available in small quantities, that is quantities
that did not anywhere near come up to the demands.
Mr. Magee. Do you know when the shipping of that product east
ceased ?
Mr. MoRLEY. I could not say just when it ceased.
Mr. Magee. About when?
Mr. Morley. Of course there was no doubt, quite a large amount
of it shipped until our division got into the swing out there and got
things going. Now, the Army went out there with a very large
program ahead of it, a program to enormously increase the prociuction
of spruce and also to produce a quality of spruce which would be
satisfactory and not this inferior G list stuff that they had been buying
in the past. Unfortunately spruce that is available for air plane use
does not grow in, altogether, in one big tract, it is scattered around
among other kinds of trees, so that ordinarily spruce is simply cut in
connection with the general commercial operation for the cutting of
other kinds of timber, and is merely, one might say, a by product of
that general operation. The problem was to get out more of this
spruce, and when Gen. Disque first started, it was of course light in
the rainy season, the most disadvantageous
Mr. Magee. What time was that ?
Mr. Morley. Time to build railroads.
Mr. Magee. What time ?
Mr. Morley. Well, as I say, when he fust went out there for a
preliminary survey, I think it was the latter part of October, but ho
didn't get out and get into the saddle and really start to do anything
until probablv December or the 1st of January.
Mr. Magee: 1917?
Mr. Morley. 1917 or January, 1918, and at that time of course the
rainy season was under way. It was possible to increase the produc-
tion of spruce by undertaliing this riving process, and that meant
going into the woods and selecting a spruce tree that appeared to be
suitable for air plane material, that, in other words, had considerable
quantity of air plane material in it and cut it down and get it out.
Mr. Magee. Well, you mean saw it or split it up there ?
Mr. Morley. Well, I mean get it out somewhere where it could be
sawed.
Mr. Magee. In what form had they been shipping it east prior to
that time?
Mr. Morley. They had been shipping this G list stuff.
Mr. Magee. In the form of lora ?
^o«
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648 WAR EXPENDITURES.
Mr. MoRLEY. No ; in the form of lumber.
Mr. Magee. Is that
Mr. MoRLEY. The G list lumber, called G list in the trarle.
Mr. Magee. In what form, sawed ?
Mr. MoRLEY. Sawed boards, timber.
Mr. Magee. How thick were the boards; can yon srive us any i<lea?
Mr. MoRLEY. Various, various sizes, simply spruce lumber.
Mr. Magee. Inch boards, or more, in thickness ?
Mr. MoRLEY. More, some of them, I suppose, were inch, 2-incli,
4 inches.
Mr. Magee. Plank?
Mr. MoRLEY. Plank, some of them.
Mr. Magee. Do you know about the ordinary diameter of an
ordinary spruce tree there ?
Mi\ MoRLEY. Well, they vary.'
Mr. Magee. What would you say as to that ?
Mr. MoRLEY. Spruce trees varv from all the way up to some "f
them as thick as 20 feet, 22 feet, f think, we found some.
Mr. Magee. In diameter ?
Mr. MoRLEY. Yes; but of course the ordinary logs won't run am-
where near as large as that.
Mr. Magee. I mean such as jou ordinarily get there.