By the way, there is an inaccuracy in the record. I never used
the word "pro-Soviet" in there.

]VIr. Morgan. You did refer to it, in answer to a question by Mr.
Fellows, as an important textbook ?

Mr. Larsen. Yes, I did.

Mr. Morgan. In what sense did you make that statement ?



STATE DEPART-MENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY IN\ESTIGATrON 1109

Mv. Larsex. In the sense that it Mas read very carefully, and we
â– svere often recjuested to connnent on it.

^Ir. MoRGAX. Was it read more intensely than other publications
relatiufx to the Far East?

Mr. JvARSEX. No, 1 don^t think so.

Mv. ]\IoRGAN. So, in your association with Mr. Jafl'e, you had no
reason to think of Mr. Jatl'e or of Anierasia in any peculiar sense,,
is that rig-ht ?

Mr. Larsex. I had occasion, of course, to consider it as one of the
leftist magazines. I definitely decided that when I had read it for-
some time.

^Ir. JNIorgax. Was that during the period of your association witk
Mr. Jatfe^

Mr. Larsex-^. Yes. That was after I came over to the State De-
partment.

j\Ir. JNIorgax-^. Yet you continued to maintain your contact witk
him and to supply information to him?

Mr. Larsex, Yes, but I did not suspect that he was a spy or a pro-
Conmiunist, especially after he said that he was not a Communist and
not pro-Communist.

iSlr. Morgax^ Getting back to the line of inquiry from which we were-
diverted somewhat

Senator Greex. INlay I get back to where I was ?

Mr. MoRGAX. Certainly. I am sorry.

Senator Greex^. You were telling us about one of the Senators,.
Senator ^Mierry, sending for you. Were you given any reason why
he sent for you ?

Mr. Larsex. Yes, he told me, somewhat laughingly, that he was
the expert on homosexuality in the State Department, and we laughed
quite a bit, and I said, "Well, in that case I am definitely veiy sorry.
Senator, I cannot help you, because I am not a homosexual myself
and it has gone completely over my head, this homosexual business,
and I don't know Lattimore."

Senator Greex*. How did you get word from him ?

INIr. Larsex'. That was from jNIr. George Dondero, who took me over
there, the day I met Kent Hunter.

Senator Greex. Was it a message from Senator Wherry that he
wanted to see you?

Mr. Larsex. I presume so. I didn't know what the purpose of the
call was when Congressman Dondero sent for me, so I just wentto his
office and he patted me on the shoulder and said, "Larsen, I know you
are no Communist, and I told your wife the other day that I think
you are a fine man."

Senator Greex'. Senator Wherry said this ?

Mr. Larsex-^. No; Mr. Dondero said it. He said, "I know you will
help us in this matter and tell us the truth."

Senator Greex'. WHiat matter?

Mr. Larsex. The investigation of the Amerasia case. He said, "In
that connection I wanted to introduce you to Senator Wherry."

I said, "What does he want to ask me about?"

He said, "As far as 1 know it is about Lattimore. Do you know any-
thing about Lattimore?"

I said, "No."



1110 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

Then lie said, "Do you know tliis gentleman here?"

I said, "No."

He said, "My name is Kent Hunter."

Then Congressman Dondero said, "I will go outside for a minute
while you talk together."

I said, "I don't like to give any statements to the press."

He said, "This is not for the press. This is just a little off-the-
record talk. I just want to know your story of Amerasia. How did
you get involved ? Did you ever know Lattimore, and what were your
relations with Service?"

Senator Green. We are getting away from Senator Wherry, are*we
not?

Mr. Larsen. Yes ; and then we went to Senator Wherry.

Senator Green. Kent Hunter and you ?

Mr. Larsen. No ; Congressman Dondero and I.

Senator Green. What was Congressman Dondero's interest in the
whole matter?

Mr. Larsen. He had apparently had a call from Senator Wherry
and had obliged him by saying he would bring Larsen to him.

Senator Green. You understood that Dondero was drumming up
witnesses for Senator Wherry?

Mr. Larsen. Oh, yes ; definitely, sir.

Senator Green. Were you promised anything in return ?

Mr. Larsen. No, sir.

Senator Green. Or threatened if you did not go ?

Mr. Larsen. No, sir.

Senator Green. It was just your general good nature that made you
give your time to this ?

Mr. Larsen. Yes, Senator Wherry is a very charming man, I con-
sidered.

Senator Green. Did you know him ?

Mr. Larsen. No.

Senator Green. You did not know him as a charming man then, did
you ?

Mr. Larsen. No, but I met him and he was very pleasant and I
thought I would not conceal anything from him, as I had not con-
cealed anything from the others.

Senator Green. You have a very generous and open disposition to
oblige a perfect stranger by putting yourself out and giving of your
time.

Mr. Larsen. That's right. I am of that disposition. Incidentally,
I have been through the mill on this. I have been sentenced ; I have
suffered considerably. I have been without employment since 1945,
and I figure that in the way of double jeopardy nothing in particular
could happen to me.

Senator Green. Do you mind going back? We seem to go off on
sidetracks.

In your conversation with Senator Wherry, after you got through
with that one subject which you disclaimed any knowledge of or ability
to help him with, what trend did the conversation take?

Mr. Larsen. Then I related to him my experience with Mr. Mc-
Carthy and his assistant.

Senator Green. Then what happened ?



STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 1111

Mr. Larsen. I told him, "I don't like jVIcCarthy *? methods, or rather,
the methods of his assistant. I had a little clash with him."

Senator Gkeex. Then what ?

Mr. Larsex. Then he said, to the best of my memory, "Oh, Mac
has fjone out on a limb and kind of made a fool of himself, and we have
to back liini up now,'" and with Cliinese mental reserve I said to my-
self, ''You back him up. Leave me out of it."

Senator Green. What did you say out loud?

Mr. Larsen. I said nothino;.

Senator (treen. Was that the end of the conversation?

Mr. Larsen. That was the end of the conversation, and Mr. Wherry
said, ''Thank you very much for coming in. Would you come in
again if you think of something, or if I send for you would you come
again?"

1 said, "Yes, yes. Good-by. sir," and that's all.

Senator Green. Then you have described, I think, your conversa-
tion with Senator ^McCarthy. That was very brief.

Mr. Larsen. Very brief; yes.

Senator Green. He was disappointed in you too, wasn't he?

Mr. Larsen. Yes; I think he was.

Senator Green. Did you introduce the same general topic that you
did with Senator Wherry, that he thought you were going to give some
information about homosexuality?

Mr. Larsen. That's right.

Senator Green. Did Senator McCarthy have the same expectation?

Mr. Larsen. Xo; he never brought up Lattimore or homosexuality.
He merely asked me what I knew about the Amerasia espionage case,
and the other members involved in it.

Senator Green. That is a long story you could have told him.

Mr. Larsen. Yes; I could have told him a long story. I could
have made it very brief and said I did not know what the other people
involved in the case did, because I did not consj^ire w4th them.

Senator Green. Is that what you said, or what you might have
said {

Mr. Larsen. I could have said that, but he did not ask me.

Senator Green. What did you say to him in reply to his questions?

Mr. Larsen. I said. "I shall be very glad to tell you my end of it."

Senator Green. AVhat did lie say to that?

Mr. Larsen. He didn't get a chance to say anything. Then the
phone rang, and he said to some woman on the j)hone, "I can't be
there at that time ; I'm awfully sorry, I am tied uj). Tell them I have
to go to Cliina, or I'm having a baby." I think that is what he said.

Senator Green. Wliat did he say to you?

Mr. Larsen. He said, "Excuse me, please," and then he started to
ask me another question : "How did you get to know Jafte?"' He did
not iret an answer to that question. Then another phone call, and then
he talked on the phone for about 5 minutes, and then he put the i)hone
down and then the young ^Nlr. Surine came in, and he said, ''Look,
Don. I want you to take Mr. Larsen downstairs and question him. I
am too busy."

I said, "it has been a pleasure meeting you. Senator." I have been
taught to say those falsehoods. And I went downstairs with Mr.
Don Surine.

68970 — 50 — pt. 1 71



1112 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

Senator Greets\ Then ^yllat happened ^Yith Mr. Surine? He was
" actino; as Mr. McCarthy's agent in the matter ?

lyir. Laksen. Yes; and he had a great many dictaphones and other
contraptions, at least 10 of them, in that office. It was bristlmg with
macliineiy. And I understood that whatever I said would go into
records and on disks. I sat down opposite him and he pulled out a
yellow sheet where he had some questions listed, and he began with the
first one : "What is your name and address and how did you get in-
volved in the Amerasia espionage case ?"

Senator Green. Did you feel under any obligation to answer all
these ?

Mr. Larsen. No ; I did not.

Senator Green. But you answered them ?

]Mr. Larsen. I answered only this way : "I would prefer to call it the
Amerasia leakage of documents or stolen documents case, and not the
espionage case."

Senator Green. That was the conversation you told us about before ?

Mr. Larsen. Yes ; and there it ended.

Senator Green. And that is the whole of all your communications
directly with Senator McCarthy and Senator Wherry, pending fur-
ther calls from them ?

Mr. Larsen. Yes, sir. I had forgotten one thing I remember now.
I cannot repeat the words exactly. I wish I had recorded something
too. Mr. Don Surene pointed to me and said, "You are equally guilty,"
and there he sort of got me a little bit mad. He said, "You are equally
guilty with the others, but if you will testify correctly you can be of
great help to us and everything will be much easier for you."

Senator Green. That is what I said. Were there any inducements
or threats? Apparently there were.

Mr. Larsen. That was the only one, and that was the one that got
me stirred up first. The final detonator was when he said, "Are you
defending Amerasia?"

Then I got ready to go home.

Senator (treex. Whom did you think Mr. Surine represented. Sen-
ator Wlierry ?

Mr. Larsen. No; I think he represented Senator McCarthy, be-
cause he was introduced to me as Mr. McCarthy's man.

Mr. Morris. Did you say you saw a recording machine there at that
time?

Mr. Larsen. I saw quite a number of them around there.

Mr. Morris. What do you mean by recording machines?

]Mr. Larsen. Well, dictaphones, electric typewriters, little electric
gadgets that I hnd never seen before, never used.

Mr. Morris. Did you see anything that was recording the conver-
sation tliat took place?

Mr. Larsen. I looked around for a "mike" but I couldn't find one.

Mr. Morris. So when you made the statement that the place was
bristlinjx with machines you meant it was bristling with typewriters?

Mr. Larsen. And dicta])hones and other equipment.

Mr. McRRis. But nothing to record the conversation that had been
going on ?

Mr. Larsen. I don't know the nature of those machines. I never
used one.



STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 1113

Senator Green. Now let's get on to the third Senator. Don't make
me go into detail as to what you said next and what he said and so on.
How did von happen to a'o there ?

JNIr. Lausex. To Senator McCarthy?

Senator Green. To Senator Ferguson.

Senator Ferguson's secretary, Mr. Reed

Senator Mc]Mahon. Before you get into Senator Ferguson, when
Senator AVherry said he was the expert on homosexuality in the State
De]^artment, did he state his qualifications?

Mr. Larsen. No; he did not.

Senator Lodge. I understood Mr. ^Morgan had a line of questioning
that tlie chairman desired to have finished today.

Senator Green. The temporary chairman desires to have this line
finished first.

Senator Lodge. I wonder how far along Mr. Morgan is.

!Mr. Morgan. I am just getting started.

Senator Lodge. Then, of course, Mr. Morris has a line of questions
to develop, and I think Mr. Larsen had better understand he is going
to be here all day tomorrow.

Senator Green. Let's finish with this line first. We are trying to
find out the conversations with the three Senators, which we had piece-
meal before.

"Will you tell us why you went to see Senator Ferguson — a consecu-
tive story.

Mr. Larsen. His assistant, a Mr. Reed, called the apartment. I
was not at home.

Senator Green. TVas this a social phrase or actually were you not
there ?

Mr. Larsen. I was not at home, and when I got home my wife said,
"There is a ]Mr. Reed who wants to talk to you."

lasked, "AAHioisit?"

'•He said he is an assistant in Senator Ferguson's office. He wants
you to call him."

Not cherishjng too many investigations and questions, I did not call
him, and he called me early in the morning and said, ''Mr. Larsen "'

Senator Green. He himself called you?

Mr. Larsen. No, Mr. Reed. He said, "You don't know me. I am
an assistant in Senator Ferguson's office. Would you please come up
and see me?"

I told him, "Frankly, I don't even have the carfare today, because
I am waiting for a check for an article I wrote."

He said, "Well. T could pick you up."

I said, "I am going down town somehow or other today, and if I can,
I will make it."

He said. "No; let's make it definite," and he begged me to come and
see the Senator. He said, "It won't be but a moment."

Senator Green. Mr. Reed promised to stop for you and take you?

Mr. Larsen. He said it wouldn't be but a few moments, and in the
morning mail I received my check and Mr. Reed called me back again
about noontime.

Senator Lodge. Your check? From whom?

Mr. Larsen. A check for an article I had written.

Senator Lodge. I see.



1114 STATE DEPARTIvIENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

Mr. Larsen. Mr. Reed called me once more that same day, and
asked me, "Could you come down?", and I said, "Yes.' I said I will

come down." . . ,

Senator Green. You must have been getting curious, were you not,

as to what it was all about.

Mr. Larsen. Yes. • ^i. c

Senator Green. Yet I don't know. Perhaps with two other Sen-
ators in the background you aready knew, or suspected.

Mr Larsen. 1 probably was just as willing to talk to an associate
of Senator Ferguson as I was to Mr. Jaffe. I mean that without any

contempt.

Senator Lodge. And for the same reasons i

Mr. Larsen. Yes ; to discuss the interests of the Nation.

Senator Lodge. I thought you said you were discussing it with Jatte
because he was interested in personalities. Do you mean you wanted
to see Senator Ferguson in order to exchange information on Chinese
personalities ?

Mr. Larsen. No. May I answer the question ?

Senator Lodge. I hope you answer it. nr t ^

Mr. Larsen. Just in the same manner I wanted to see Mr. Jaite on
personalities, I was quite willing to see Mr. Ferguson, who I believed
had the interests of the Nation at heart.

Senator Lodge. I can now see you are not serious in your answer.

Mr. Larsen. Certainly I am serious.

Senator Lodge. I think that statement pretty well disqualifies the
witness in his other testimony.

Mr. Larsen. What advantage would it be to myself to see Mr.
Ferguson ? ,

Senator Lodge. You refuse to answer the question, and that is the

end of that.

Senator Green. Answer your own question.

Mr. Larsen. I would answer my own question. I knew that Mr.
Ferguson was interested in getting from me something that would
show tliat there was a conspiracy involving me, and the only personal
interest in it was to go and see Mr. Ferguson and tell him the truth.
I had nothing sinister in mind, and it was not purely that I ran to
anyone wlio sent for me, because let me tell you, others have sent for me
and I have refused to go.

Senator Green. Any other Senators?

Mr. Larsen. No other Senators. Many newspapermen.

Senator Green. Let's get on. You have got as far as Mr. Reed call-
ing for you.

Mr. Larsen. Then I went down there and got there at 3 sharp, and

vne nc;liprpfl into Afr. Fpro-nson's room, nnrl Mr TJppfl wn« nrPSfillt, and

me the
'^Vliat did
I think of the case?"

I told him, "I know there is a considerable move on among you Re-
publican gentlemen to get some information that would pry open the
Amerasia case and sliow it as an espionage case. I am sorry ; I don't
know of any espionage in the case."

Senator Green. You weren't really sorry ; that was just an expres-
sion.



STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 1115

Mr. Larsen. I am not sure, really. I am o:lad that the Government
was unable to jirove it. because it avouUI have been very bad tor me it
I \vere involved with people who en<2:aged in espionage.

Senator Lodge. Do you think the Government tried to prove it i

Uv. Lauskn. That is difficult for me to answer. It seems to me that
they tried. They arrested us. They stuck their necks out quite a bit
when they arrested us on espionage charges.

Senator Lodge. Do you think they stuck their necks out as far as the
necks of the young men wei-e stuck out in the foreign areas in the war i
There was a'war on, wasn't there ^

Mr. Larsen. It is difficult to make a comparison. The war was
foisted on us, as far as I remember.

Senator Grkex. AVe can go back now and pick up the loose threads
of the conversation between vourself and Senator Ferguson.

Mr Larsen. I explained to him that I had told the truth, and i
was willino- to tell the truth if he was interested at all, and he did ask
me and I told you rouo-hlv what I have said here. I did not deny that
I had loaned Jatfe documents, and I felt that I had been punished lor
it, perhaps richtlv, perhaps a little too much, and my only grudge was
that I had been niade the scapegoat in the entire matter, whereas i telt
that surely there must have been others involved.

He asked me. ''Why do you suspect that?"

I said, "Because I saw a stack of documents that I did not give to
Mr. Jaffe, and I have read in papers and other places lists of docu-
ments that would never have come to me."

So he said to me, "I want to ask you this, Larsen : Do you personally
think that this was a widespread plot ?" ^ ., • t4=

I told him, "I have a suspicion, but I can t prove an>^iiiiLg- ^^
I could prove anvthing"— and you may verify this from Mr. J^ergu-
son— "I would consider it my patriotic duty now to tell, to give the

proof." » , T o

Senator Green. And vou still feel that way i
Mr. Larsen. Yes ; I still feel that way.

Senator Green. Toward us? . . iwi

Mr. Larsen. Toward you, too, because you called me here to tell the

^ Sel'iator Green. Then that was the end of your conversation?
Mr. Larsen. Yes, sir.
Senator Green. Did he ask you if you would be willing to come



again



Mr. Larsen. Yes; he did. n u i i f«9

Senator Green. And you said you would, you would be glad to^

Mr LARSEN. I didn^t sav I would be glad to. I told him I have

a hard time with these investigations, but if you insist, 1 shall come

ao-ain, and you are free to ask me many other questions, but I would

like to be left out of the case. I have taken my rap already.

Senator Green. Did you understand that these Senators had—
I won't sav conspired ; had talked together about you ?

^Ir. Lassen. Well, I felt very strongly that they were all ea^^er

to use me as much as possible. , . , , , . , i . i ^,.

Senator (treen. I mean, did you think they knew about eacii otliei

having seen you?



1116 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

Mr. Larsen. Oh, yes, definitely, because they asked me "You saw
Mr. McCarthy on such and such a date, is that not right?" Oh, yes;
they all knew where I had been. I enumerated locations to them.

Senator Lodge. Mr. Chairman, let me just say that while, of course,
we have a right to develop any of this testimony we want, the fact of
the matter is that it is the job of this committee to find out how those
documents were stolen and why the people who stole them were not
punished, and we can have as many diversions of this kind as wii
wish, but the public will be disappointed unless we definitely find
out who was guilty and find out why they weren't punished, and that
transcends any political considerations.

Senator Green. I was turning the witness over to Mr. Morgan
when you interrupted with that remark.

Senator Lodge. I am not the only one who interrupted, and I think
my remark goes to the heart of this 'inquiry.

Senator Green. Now may Mr. Morgan proceed ?

Senator Lodge. I will be very glad to have Mr. Morgan proceed.

Mr. Morgan. Going back to 'the interjection of the name of Mr.
Lattimore in your testimony, during the period of your association
with Roth, with Jaffe, and on one occasion your meeting with Service,
during the period of your contacts with Jaffe did Mr. Lattimore's
name enter into the picture at any time ?

Mr. Larsen. No, sir; not that I remember. I do not remember
ever discussing him.

Mr. JNIorgan. And your injecting the name of Mr. Lattimore into
the picture later on was purely by way of referring to this meeting
of the barbecue at Mr. Lattimore's home which you had been told
about by Mr. Hunter, is that correct ?

Mr. Larsen. That is correct.

Mr. Morgan. I see.

Mr. Larsen. Yes.

Mr. Morgan. In your testimony you made reference, Mr. Larsen,
to the article which appeared in Plain Talk magazine that has been
referred to on numerous occasions. As a matter of fact, I believe it
is the first edition of this magazine, an article which appeared in
October of 1946.

Mr. Larsen. That's right.

Mr. Morgan The article is captioned, "The State DeiDartment's
Lspionage Case" and "By Emmanuel S. Larsen."

Mr. Larsen. That's right.

Mr. Morgan. Did you write this article ?

Mr. Larsen. No, sir.

Mr. Morgan. You did not?

Mr. Larsen. No, sir. I wrote what Mr. Don Levine asked me to
write, my story of the involvement in the Amerasia case, and I wrote
It so that m case they accepted it as such it could be readied for pub-
lication, and I entitled it "They Called Me a Spy."

Mr. Morgan. That was the draft you prepared ?

Mr. Larsen. That was the draft that I prepared.

Mr. Morgan. How did it happen that you prepared this article for
this magazine*

Mr. Larsen. I was down in Florida with mv father, helping him
build a house, and I was knee deep in concrete when two men came



STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 1117

down there, namelv Mr. Kirkprttrick and ^Ir. Higoins, former FBI
men, who claimed that they had worked on my case m the State
Dei);u-tment (hn-inir 1045 and tliat they had resigned m November
19i:), and had joined Phiin TaUc magazine as research analysts in

commnnism. ^ ^ -r^ , i

They came to Florida on the 1st of Angnst 1946, to St. Petersbnrg,
Fla and thev heirued me to accompany them to New 1 ork to write
an article foV Mr. Don Levine. I told them, "I don't want to write
an article, becanse I don't know enough about the case. I wish I
did. and I wonld know whether all these things that are clanned in
the papers are correct or not: namely, that there was a spy ring and
that there was commnnism within the State Department."

So thev milled around for some time, and that evening the answer
was stiir^Xo. I want to be left out. I have been punished, I have
been fined, discredited. I want to be left out."

The next morning they went to my residence,' and I was about 8
or 10 blocks over near Gulfport helping my father, and they pre-
vailed upon mv wife, namelv. bv convincing her that this would entail
several things" of advantaae to me: (1), I would be cleared of sus-
picion. It would be known to the world that I was not the only one
who had had dealings with Jaffe. (-2), that I would, through the
writiu'^ of this article, earn some money and some publicity it 1
wanted to go into writing, and that they would try to put me on the
radio. They would test me for radio voice and put me on the radio
and oet me "some contracts, and they very strongly prevailed on me
that afternoon, and I asked mv father to excuse me from the work on
tiie house— I supervised the carpenters— and they took us downtown
and w^e had dinner downtown, and they impressed me as sincere m
tryino- to help me rehabilitate myself, and I agreed that night to
go up to >;ew York the next dav, and they went and paid for mv
ticket, about $100 it cost by plane, and I got my clothes ready and