called it, some friendly advice as to where he stood and everything
else. So, the advice I gave him was that he should write to Senator
Tyclings and say that he is perfectly willing to come down and testify.
Now, what caused him to be so upset was the fact he had to testify
in open session. Apparently, when he was first served, he was told
by Mr. Tyler that he was going to be heard in executive session. When
he got down here and saw all the klieg lights, he was very much dis-
turbed, and he said he had an emotional upset; and I believe him,
because the guy is very excitable.
Mr. Morgan. For the record, Mr. Tyler told him he didn't know
whether he would appear in executive or open session, but that is
neither here nor there.
Mr. Morris. I am reporting on Mr. Huber's conversation.
Mr. Morgan. Just for the record, I want that to be clear.
Mr. Morris. I said now that he is well again ; that he should come
and send a letter to Senator Tydings.
STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INA^ESTIGATION 1481
Senator Tydixgs. If he came down here does anybody know what
he would testify to ^ AVhut is the point of brinoino- him iniless he is
going to contribute something to the sum total of knowledge essential
to form an opinion on the matter before us? We had Mr. Van Buren
down here who was widely heralded as a man who could tell every-
thing in God's world, and if he had stayed in Xew York — he is a hell
of a nice fellow — we would have known just as much as we know now.
I don't want to take the time to have witnesses come down here unless
we know they have got some pertinent information. There is no
2)oint in getting him down here, then finding he has nothing to
Mr. MoRKis. Senator, don't misconstrue what I said now. I am
answering Senator McMahon's inquiry about Huber. Here is the
lirst time it came up, and I spoke of it as soon as I heard about it. I
gave him advice. I didn't think it was in the capacity of assistant
counsel. I think he came to me as somebod}^ he could go to for assist-
ance, and I gave him the best advice I could.
Senator McMahox. How many times have you conferred with him ?
Mr. MoRRTs. Huber? All together, I must have seen Huber eight
times. You see, he was one of the witnesses before the Westchester
Senator Mc^NIahox. And you were connected with that case?
Mr. ]MoKRis. Yes.
Senator McMahox. Is that where you first met him?
Mr. MoKKis. That is where I first met him — possibly before that,
Senator McMahox. Were most of the meetings in connection with
Mr. JNIoRKis. Yes.
Senator jSIcMahox. How many times did you confer with him in
relation to our matters?
Mr. Morris. I would say two.
Senator McMahon. Would you fix the dates?
Mr. Morris. It would be very difficult. Senator.
Senator McMahon. I don't mean the exact dates. I mean in rela-
tion to what was going on in the investigation. In other words, w^as
it before he was supposed to appear before our committee?
Mr. Morris. No. I met him once before he was supposed to appear,
but I had no part of it or anything else. I just heard that he was
going to be one of the witnesses.
Senator Tydixgs. Were you alone when you met him?
Mr. ]MoRRis. No.
Senator Tydixgs. Who was with you?
Mr. Morris. I think :Mi'. Sokolsky was present and Mr. Kerley.
;Mr. Sokolsky had nothing to do with it. It happened to be a social
gathering at which these people happened to be present.
Senator Tydixgs. Anybody else?
Senator McMahox. Who is Kerley?
•Mr. Morris. He testified at the same time. It was a social gather-
ing. Senator. I am trying to think of who else was present.
Mr. MoRGAX. Is our question whether or not we are going to call
Senator Tydixgs. Let us let the thing go.
1482 STATE D'EPARTJMEJSTT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION
Mr. Morris. I am answering Senator McMahon's question. I am
trying to recall who was present. The two that stand out are Kerley
and Sokolsky. I don't think he even paid any attention to it.
Senator McMahon. Where was the meeting?
Mr. Morris. Jt wasn't a meeting. It was at the home of J. B.
Matthews, 410 West Twenty-fourth Street. He is a man who had —
I know he always used to help me when I was in the ISavy.
Senator McMahon. I know something about Dr. Matthews' back-
ground. That was before Kerley was supposed to appear with this
Mr. Morris. That is right, Senator. ^?v
Senator McMahon. Just a few days before?
Mr. Morris. No. I think this was probably at least a week before,
maybe 2 weeks.
Senator McMahon. Was that before you became associated with
Mr. Morris. I don't think so ; no.
Senator McMahon. That was when you were associated with this
Mr. Morris. I think so.
Senator McMahon. Did you make that known to the committee, the
fact that you had had this meeting in regard to this witness?
Mr. Morris. I don't think so, Senator. You see, it was a social
gathering. Now, I was not there in my capacity as a counsel of the
Senator McMahon. But Huber's appearance was discussed;
Mr. Morris. Naturally, the Lattimore subject was in all the papers
and everyone was talking about it.
Senator McMahon. Lattimore had already appeared.
Mr. Morris. No. I don't know whether he had appeared, but Latti-
more's name had been injected into the picture, and people were gen-
erally talking about Lattimore and evidence against Lattimore. I
saw Huber there and I was rather surprised. I mean I hadn't seen
Huber, I suppose, a month or 2 months, 6 weeks, whatever it was.
So, I listened to what was going on. I just listened to what it was;
that is all. I don't even think I formed a conclusion, because, when
I heard that Senator McCarthy had suggested he be called, I was
rather surprised. They hadn't consulted me on it.
Senator Hickenlooper. I want to clear up one thing, Brien, if I
Senator McMahon. Sure.
Senator Hickenlooper. It just runs in my mind, and I want to be
clear oi; it in my own mind. At the time this fellow failed to appear as
a witness, or the day before or the day after, in discussing the matter,
it seems to me that Mr. Morris may have mentioned that he had seen
this fellow. I think maybe I asked him if he had ever seen this fellow
that failed to appear, and it runs in my mind that he said he saw him
once, or something of the kind. I asked you whether you talked it
over with the committee. I think I asked you that. I can't be ab-
solutely certain. However, we were discussing why this fellow didn't
appear, and I said, "Who is this 'bird'," and you may have said to me
that you had seen him once. I don't recall whether you did or not.
Senator Ttdings. All right, go ahead. What do you want to know ?
STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 1483
Senator ISIcMaiion. I may pursue it further a little later.
Senator Lodge, Let me ask you, before Mr. Morgan continues, what
is your program for this meeting today, to clean up a lot of loose ends;
is that it?
Senator Tydixgs. There are a lot of things, some of which have
been requested by me without the authority of the connuittee. I have
been trying to be vigilant, and where things were not buttoned up I
have written and tried to get answers to be put in the record. They
are all self-explanatory, and a mere reading of them will show where
they fit in. There are only one or two things where there could be a
question of keeping them out. One of them is that confidential thing
from the FBI. My suggestion is — and I want to be perfectly open and
aboveboard about' it — that Mr. Morgan be authorized to put in all
papers that are pertinent to our inquiry which fill in the gaps here. I
have written them, without any regard to whether they are pro or con,
to get the information, and it is all here. Some of it, I think, would be
of value to the committee, but there would be no point, in my opinion,
for the conunittee taking every little letter and going through them,
because a lot of them are very routine.
Senator Lodge. I would like to feel that my assistant could go
through them and pick out things that he thinks I ought to see.
Senator Tydings. I have no objection to that.
Mr. MoROAx. These will all be a part of the record.
Senator Tydixgs. They will all be a part of the record, which will
be put in your hands.
Senator Lodge. You are going to make copies of this for everybody ?
Mr. Morgan. "What I hope to do. Senator, except in those instances
where the matter is extremely voluminous, is to indicate to the re-
porter where it is to be incorporated in the record. This will be re-
tained among the official exhibits in the office downstairs, and when
and if we print the record then this can be printed right into the body
of the testimony where it is to be inserted.
Senator Tydixgs. What I am doing— I think I ought to notify the
committee, and I am sure the committee will want to have it done —
I am having the testimony all printed at the Government Printing
Office. I haven't gotten any of it yet, but they have it. Now they tell
me at this stage of the garne, with the session drawing to a close, and
with the Congressional Record, they can't give it to me right away,
but at least they are working on it, and I am very hopeful of getting
it in the not too distant future. Wliat I want to do is to put anything
that is pertinent in, so that, when the record does come, you will have
the whole ])icture.
Senator Greex. I don't understand just what Mr. Morgan meant
by "at the proper place in the record." You can't date these back as
though they were put in 3 or 4 weeks ago.
Mr. ^NIorgax^. No. Senator. What t mean is this : that if we incor-
porate them as exhibits they will still have to be printed: and, as a
matter of convenience, I think it would be better to have them printed
as a part of the testimony record rather than putting them back in as
an exhibit as such.
Senator Tydix'os. So that the exhibit Avill come where it is related
to the evidence in the record.
1484 STATE departmelNt employee loyalty investigation
Senator Green. I don't think that is right at all. It would seem
then, as though we knew it at the time.
Senator Tydings. We asked for it at the time.
Mr. Morgan. Here, for example, is a communication from the De-
partment of Justice pursuant to a specific request made of Mr. Mc-
Inerney for the Larsen affidavit filed in court.
Senator Green. And, at a hearing, it was agi^eed that it should be
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Senator Green. That is all right. I thought you meant an inde-
pendent letter from the chairman about some matter that we had
discussed at some hearing and, therefore, you would put the whole
thing back in that hearing.
Mr. Morgan. No, sir.
Senator Tydings. Frequently during the course of the hearing. Sen-
ator Green, if you will recall, we were requested to get some informa-
tion, which I have endeavored to do, and it should be put in the record
at the time the request was made, although it came in later, to show its
relativity to what we had under discussion.
Senator Green. That is all right.
Senator Tydings. Go ahead, Mr. Morgan.
Mr. Morgan. If the chairman desires, I will be happy to read all of
this material into the record. However, I would much prefer, if pos-
sible — it is all here, available to anyone who wishes to review it —
merely to indicate to the stenographer, not necessarily here and now,
what it is in order that he can indicate in our record that it has been
incorporated as such.
Senator Lodge. I am interested, Mr. Chainnan, in having access to
these papers while I am still studying this whole subject, so that I
can know what is in it to help me in my study.
Senator Tydings. You sure can, and it will be made available to
you whenever you want it.
Senator Lodge. When can my assistants look through these papers?
Mr. Morgan. You name it — anytime.
Senator Lodge. Anytime ?
Senator Tydings. Anytime at all.
Senator Lodge. All right.
Senator Tydings. Go ahead.
Mr. Morgan. I assume, then, that it will not be necessary at this
point to incorporate by reading all of this into the record.
Senator Tydings. I don't see any point in it, but any member of
the committee, anytime, ought to be able to go through this and see
anything that we have here.
Mr. Morgan. Pursuant to the committee's approval of this action,
I am at this point incorporating in the record all of the various items
which we thus far have collected in the office of the staff.^
(Wlierelipon, at 3: 50 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
1 These items are included in the appendix to the record at pp. 1756 to 2509,
BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY
3 9999 05018 346 4
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