may care to ask. "^

Senator Tydings. Ladies and gentlemen, I will have to request you
m hue with the rules of the Senate, please not to make any demon-
strations either pro or con about any proceedings before the committee.
I will ask that we take a recess for 2 minutes to give everybody a
chance to rise while the committee confers.
(A brief recess was taken.)
Senator Tydikgs. The committee will come to order.



442 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY IKVESTIGATION

Mr Fortas, before Dr. Lattimore left the room I noticed at the con-
chision of his mimeographed remarks that there are several excerpts
from letters included with this exhibit which reflect the views ot out-
standing scholars and experts, and so on. I suppose you want those
incorporated in the record immediately following Dr. l^attimores

testimony. ,,.-,. ,i .c -n» t „++;

Mr Fortas. Senator, those were offered m the course ot Dr. l^atti-
more's remarks, and they were received in evidence and are now m the

record. , . £ i

Senator Ttdings. There is nothing more that you want ot a docu-
mentary nature put in the record than has already been put m i

Mr. Fortas. That is correct, sir.

Senator Ttdings. We will relax a moment until Dr. l^attimore re-
turns. He will be in in a minute or two.

The committee will come to order. Please be seated, those who

'SenatorGreen, have you any questions to ask the witness?
Senator Green. I have no questions to ask the witness, but i have
one suggestion to make. Toward the end of his stateinent, when he
summarized the Communist line as applied to Asia, he should make it
clear so that it can't be misquoted, that he is stating the Communist
lii.e— that which starts with '^Capitalism is in decay, and because
it is in decay * '■" *•" I «m afraid that summary will be quoted
as your summary, Dr. Lattimore, and if you would put m the words
"//is that Capitalism * * =^" or something like that in your state-
ment, I think it would prevent that distortion of the statement.

Dr Lattimore. Thank you very much indeed. In view of the^knid
of dirty tricks that have been used in quoting from my books, i thmH
I should take that precaution.

Senator Green. Yes ; but you ought not to make it easy.
Senator Tydings. Senator McMahon, have you any questions i
Senator McMahon. No questions. I may have some later.
Senator Tydings. Senator .Hick-ulooper?

Senator Hickenlooper. Mr. Chairman, again, as I have said before,
I have had no opportunity to independently investigate this matter.
I have no conclusions one way or the other based upon any preconcep-
tion of this matter. I do assume that an investigation is an mvesti-
oation and that inquiries should be made into various fields for the
clarification of any things that have been said, and I therefore have
some questions to ask Dr. Lattimore. I have a few questions of my
own that have occurred to me since I have seen his statement, and
then I asked Senator McCarthy if he had any questions which he
thought should be asked of Dr. Lattimore, and he said he did, and
furnrshed me some questions, so at a later time I will submit those
questions on behalf of Senator McCarthy as a matter of exploring
certain fields that have been covered, or referred to.

Dr Lattimore, in connection with your studies and your lifeioug
associations in the Orient and other places m the world, I take it tliat
vou have come up against Communist movements and Communist
agitation at various places. Is that true? I mean, would you say

that vou have ? . ^1-1^.1*-

Dr Lattimore, I am not suggesting one way or the other on that
any implication, but you have come in contact with Communist ac-
tivities?



STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 443

Dr. Lattimore. Senator, the Avay I would put it is this: I have
worked lu countries and situations where communism and Com-
minusts were present. I was alwavs in the position of dealino- either
primarily or exclusively with those who were in opposition to the Com-
munists, because, owing to the conspiratorial nature of the way in
wJiich C ommunists operate, it was alwavs exceedingly difficult for me
to get into touch with the Communists at all.

Senator Hickexlooper. From your associations with these o-roups
or your independent investigation, then, I take it that you hSve be-
come familiar with the methods— that is to some degree, at least-
used by the Communists in their activities. "Would vou say that that
is a fair statement^

Dr. Lattimore. I have become familiar to this extent, that in non-
( ominunist territiory I have seen Communist propaganda, and I have
been able to know what the Communists were advocating at any par-
ticular moment. But the only time in Asia, apart from Asiatic
-Kussia, that I have been m a territory controlled bv Communists, so
that I could see them actually operating, was on that short trip to
1 enan m 1937.

Senator Hickenlooper. What is your opinion as to the methods
tliat coimnunism, as controlled from Moscow, operates in its attempt
to cret into positions of power in other countries? I mean is it, to
make tliat more clear, perhaps, necessarily militarv occupation,' by
mhUration, is it by propaganda, is it by conspiracy? What would
you say is your impression as to the means and methods which com-
munism has been using, communism as directed from Moscow and
stimulated from Moscow, for the advawement of its purposes ?

Dr. Lattimore. In my experience, which is primarily in China,
Seiuitor. the Communists certainly had a good deal of success in
getting at student groups in the various Chinese universities. But
my experience over the years in China and Mongolia indicates that in
general their attempts at infiltration were prettv unsuccessful, and
that the mam factor in the triumph of communism in China was not
tlie skill or wilmess of the Chinese Communists but rather the al-
most unbelievably gross mistakes of those who previously held power
m China. . i j f

Senator Hickenlooper. A\^ithin your experience, has it come to
your knowledge or your belief in China that Kussia has been attempt-
ing for a number of years to extend Communist influence in Chhia,
whetlier it is Inner or Outer Mongolia or anv one of the other prov-
inces of Chinese territory ?

Dr. Lattimore. Senator, you don't need to ask an expert whether
the Kussians were interested in the progress and eventual triumph of
communism anywhere in Asia. The record in China is a rather mixed
one, and appears to indicate that in the 192()'s there was a great deal
of direct Russian activity, Russian agents, followed by a period in the
193U"s when, largely for geographical reasons, there was very poor
liaison between the Russians and the Chinese Communists, and the
Chinese Communists developed methods of their own. which were
larg(^ly simply capitalizing on the mistakes of their opponents; and
that now, since the civil war in China and since the Communists
have a common frontier with Russia, there is a steadily increasino-
effectiveness of Russian and Chinese liaison. ^



444 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

Senator Hickeklooper. Is it your opinion that the leaders of the
Communist movement in China today, that is the leaders of the Com-
nmnist Army and the leaders of the Comnuuiist Government as it
has been set up in China, are basically-that is, among th^e jho
control the movement at the top— Moscow inspired or Moscow

^^ DrL^TTiMORE. There is no doubt whatever that the top leaders and
far down below the top leaders in the Chinese Communists are de-
voted loyally to Moscow. A great many, m tact I think the topmost,
leaders of the Chinese Communists do not happen to be Moscow
trained, but they are nonetheless deeply loyal to Moscow

Senator Hickenlooper. How long has this been the situation m the
Communist movement in China? •^

Dr. Lattimore. Do you mean how long have they been primarily

devoted to Russia? , . , . ,i m • „

Senator Hickenlooper. Well, how long has it been since the Chinese
Communist leaders have followed the Moscow party line, either
through lovalty, devotion, or training? ^ ^M.-AaA

Dr. Lattimore. Senator, you are getting into questions of detailed
Communist expertese, expertness on the Communist question where i
must confess my qualifications do not ciirry me. I have never special-
ized in Communist doctrine. My work has been primarily field woi k
in which I was basking my own opinions on observation ot situations

and men acting in situations. +;.„f t o,^

Senator Hickenlooper. Dr. Lattimore, may I assure you that 1 am
not approaching this from any assumption that you are or that you
are not sympathetic with any political movement.

Dr. Lattimore. It is not a question of sympathy. Senator, it is a
question of knowledge. , ,

Senator Hickenlooper. I am asking you as a man ^yho has devoted
a crreat deal of his life to the Orient, and who I think has a great deal
of^cumulative knowledge about Oriental situations, and I am concerned
in this question with how long has the general Communist movement
in China that ripened into the guerrilla warfare or oi-ganized warfare
been led bv those who are completely loyal to, or follow, the Moscow
partv line? Did it begin about 1936? Did it begin m the 1920 s?
Did 'it begin in the 1940's, so far as information that you may have

picked up is concerned? • • ^i ^ tv/t t^o«

Dr LvTTiMORE. My general understanding, sir, is that Mao ise-
tuno- the present boss of party matters among the Chinese Communists,
onlv really came to top control about 1937; that is, that prior
to that there were a great many factional disputes among the Chinese
Communists themselves; that since then he has been, and so tar. as i
can see, since then the liaison of thinking, at least, between the Chinese
Communists and Russians has been pretty close, as close as it could be
Senator Hickenlooper. So that he, at least, as the leader, the present
leader and the leader since about 1936 of this Communist activity m
China, has been completely in sympathy with the Moscow-dominated
Communist movement ? Would you say that that is the general belief

in China? . , i i v <• «

Dr L\TTiM0RE. I would say that that is the general belief among
American experts on China. I haven't been in China since 1944— no,
1945_so I am not closely in touch with the development of current
thinking among the Chinese in China.



STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 445

Senator HicKENLoorKR. Would you say that when you were in
China at tliat time, the hist time, either 1944 or 1945, that that was
the current belief, let's say on the street, for want of a better term,
about the leader of the Chinese Connnunist movement?

Dr. Lattimore. When I was last in China talking with Chinese,
Avho, of course, were non-Connnunist and anti-Connnnnist Chinese,
the general assumption was that the top leadership of the Chinese
Connnunists would keep in step with the Russians, but that factions
might develop which would be hostile to the close Russian line.

Senator HiCKEXLOorER. Was that at the time Mr. Wallace, who was
then Vice President, was over on his mission?

Dr. Lattimore. Mr. Wallace was over there during the war, and
certaijdy I should say that was the prevailing belief among top Chi-
nese in Chungking.

Senator Hickexlooper. That was the time that you were assigned
to him as a member of the OWI in your official capacity ; is that
correct ?

Dr. Lattimore. That is right, but I cannot speak authoritatively
on that, since I was not present at his topdevel interviews with Chi-
nese personnel.

Senator Hickexlooper. That leads me to this question. Dr. Latti-
more. Do you believe that at that time, or did you believe at that
time, that the so-called Communist movement in China was simply
an agrarian revolution for the purpose of redistributing the land in
China, or did you believe at that time, and do you thiiik, that there
was ample evidence to indicate, that it was a Communist movement
in complete sympathy with the communism as directed from Moscow?
I am talking about the Russian-dominated communism.

Dr. Lattimore. Senator, I have never believed, nor have I been
able to find in my writings anywhere that I stated, that Chinese com-
munism was merely agrarian radicalism. In a book that I published
in 1932, I believe I recall offhand that I dismissed the Chinese Com-
munists as being mainly something like the Peiping rebellion of a
century ago, but soon after that I rapidly began to modify my opinion.
What I have said about the Chinese Communists repeatedly is that
the agrarian problem was the main problem in China, and "the Chi-
nese Communists were profiting by exploiting it, but I have never
been guilty of the kind of political oversimplification that I can quote
here from one of Mr. McCarthy's— Senator McCarthy's— informants ;
one of Senator McCarthy's experts on communism appears to be Miss
Freda Utley, and I quote from her book, China at War, published in
1939, page 254 :

Moreover, the Chinese rommunist Party long ago abandoned the dream of
establishing its own dictatorship. Now that its social basis is amongst the
peasants of the mast backward provinces in China, and anrongst the middle-class
yonth and the liberal reformers, its aim has genuinely become social and political
reform along capitalist and democratic lines. The Chinese Communists have
become radicals in the English nineteenth-century meaning of the word.

That is one of Senator McCarthy's Communist experts.

Senator Hickexlooper. I would like to ask you this, whether ur
not it was not apparent in China and other places that it was the
desire of the Connnunist Party to create the impression, by way of
lulling the rest of the world into security, perhaps, that'this 'was
simply an a.grarian revolution, and that it was not a Moscow-dictated



446 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

revolution. Wouldn't vou say that that was a part of the Commu-
nist propaganda, to create that impression in order to minimize the
so-cnlled dano-er of Communist expansion?

mi.Jr^^. It may ^vell haVe been, Senator, but I never con-
cerned myself primarily \vith that. What always struck ine as typi-
cal and important in dealino- ^vith political situations m China was
that these problems existed which the Communists were exploiting.
My belief was that the Kuomintano: was in a much better position to
de"al with the same problems, and that if only the Kuommtang would
put in some comj^aratively modest and mild reforms it would com-
pletely take the steam out of the Chinese Communists, and that is
what not oiilv I. but so far as 1 know every American expert attached
to various parts of the Chinese Government was always urging over

^^'Se'nator Hickenlooper. AVhat reforms did you advocate that the
Kuomintang put into elfect and failed to put into effect that the Com-
munists put into effect in the territories which they took ovei m

Dr' Lattimore. One of the obvious reforms which has been men-
tioned in a number of books was that the Nationalist Government
itself passed a law limiting land rent to Sa/. perceii • It never
enforced this law. Rents were being collected at the rate of 00, <0,
and even more percent.

Senator Tydings. Of the capital?
Dr. Lattimore. No, sir; of the annual crop.

In a number of areas into which the Communists mhltrated all
that thev did at first was not to expropriate land, but merely to
enforce the land law which the Government did not enforce, and 1 and
others pointed out to people in the Chinese Government that they
simply could not afford to let this kind of thing go on, that Jhey must
o-et o-oing with reforms that would actually extend into the lite ot
the people, and not simply remain on paper at Chungking

Senator Hickenlooper. Then is it a fact that whe.i the Commu-
nists came into control of the territory in China they reduced taxes and
enlarged the liberties of the people? . ,^,.,.;f^v,,

Dr Lattimore. Senator, I have never been m a Chinese teiiitory
at the moment that the Communists came m and took over. Judging
froui the literature of the subject, they have practiced varying meth-
ods at various times. At times they have adopted simply reduction ot
rent, and at other times they have resorted to outright expropriation
You must alwavs expect a Communist to act with a certain amount ot
opportunism in things like that. It depends on how much they think
they can get away with at the moment. . ^ ^ .-.^

Senato? Hickenlooper. Now the Russian Government, or the
Soviet, either is in the process of negotiation or has i^egotiated, rights
in several of the specific ports in the territory of China ; that is, conti-
nental China, is that correct?

Dr. Lattimore. So I understand, sir.

Senator Hickenlooper. And these negotiations have been carried
on with the in-esent so-called Chinese Communist government. Does
that indicate to you that Russia, or the Soviet government, is moving
into a comparatively permanent establishment or seizing a permanent
hold on the economy of the Communist government m China?



STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 447

Dr. Lattimore. As I indicated in my statement, Senator, wherever
the Russians aet a foothold of that kind I tliink tliey are extremely
riulikely to be dislodged easily. I therefore think that it is a o-reat
tra<j,edy that they are able to make those advances nntler the cover of
a popular feelino- in China, which the Chinese Connnunists are able
lo exploit, that this is necessary in order to defend China from the
assanhs of American-supplied planes and the navy of Chiang
Kai-shek.

Senator HiCKENLOorER. Is it your view, as a result of yonr ex-
])erieiice in China, that the Chinese Comnnniist revolution was suc-
cessful as a result of the Chinese people themselves, or as a result
of Ivussian support in one way or another of the Chinese cause?

Dr. Lattimore. I tliink. Senator, that I have more than once made
it clear in i)rint that I do not think that the triumph of the Commu-
liists in China was due to either of those processes, primarily; tliat is,
it was not due to the Chinese people electing to follow the Commu-
nists, nor was it due to the Russians. It was in the main a negative
])henomenon, that the people became so totally disillusioned and dis-
gusted with the Kuomintang government that they backed away from
it and in backing away from it foiuid themselves in the arms of the
Communists.

Senator ITickexlooper. Now, Dr. Lattimore, did you support in
1945 and 1046 or 1947 the theory that a coalition government should
be formed in China, and that Communist representatives should be
taken into the (xovernment in important offices along with officers of
tlie so-called Chinese Xationalist (xovernment?

Dr. LATTi^roRE. I did, sir. In that respect I very closely followed
and agreed with the opinions formed by General Marshall, summar-
ized in his report to the President of January 1947.

If I may summarize, it appears to me that General JNIarshall went
out to China and, with the (juick eye of the magnificent strategic anal-
yst that he is, he understood that he was in a situation in which salva-
tion was impossible and salvage w^as all that could be hoped for.
He therefore endeavored to salvage as much of the situation as he
thought was possible with the resources of the National (xovernment
and the sup]X)rt of the United States Government. I do not think
any man could have done an abler job. I am very sorry that he failed.
Incidentally, I supported him wholeheartedly in his policy at that time
when the Communists were vilifying him as a crook and a double
dealer.

Senator Hickexlooper. And that was about the same recommenda-
tion that Mr. Henry Wallace made when he came back?

Dr. Lattimore. I don't know, sir, what recommendations Mr.
Wallace may have made when he came back. I do know that at that
time, or during the war years in Chungking and certainly about that
time, many Americans in our diplomatic and military service were
becoming alarmed about the situation in the National Government of
China. They were already afraid that the rot had gone on so far that
that Government would not be able to capture the imagination of the
people at the end of the war. They were already making warnings;
you can read some of those warnings clearly set down in the State De-
partment's white paper. I am terribly sorry that they were right, but
the fact is that they were right. They were intelligence officers doing



448 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

exactly what the military and diplomatic services required of them,
namely, finding out wliat\he score was, instead of indulging m wishful
thinking, and some of them I regret to say have been politically cruci-
fied for doing an honest job of work.

Senator Hickenlooper. It was at about this time that Secretary
Marshall made his trip over there and his recommendations that the
United States becan to withdraw its aid from Nationalist China.
Wasn't it about that time— that is, that it began to lessen is aid and
began the policy of completely pulling out of China, which eventuated
here a few months ago ?

Dr. Lattimore. As I recall. Senator, General Marshall went out at
the end of 1945 after the war was already over. He began to negotiate
on a basis of compromise and reform that would not only keep the
National Government in power but strengthen its power. So far as
I recall, there was no sudden cutting ofi' of aid to Chiang Kai-shek.

Senator Hickenlooper. Wasn't there a period of about 10 months
when it was our announced policy that we would not further aid the
National Government of China, aiid then we changed it and for a time
sent in some trickles of supplies to Nationalist China ?

Dr. Lattimore. As I recall. Senator, there was a period of about 10
months in which there was a cessation of issuing export licenses, which
was not called an embargo, from the United States, but during the
same period very large supplies of American equipment were made
available from dumps in the Pacific islands, India, and so forth. These
included especially motor vehicles which were of great value to the
Chinese Government, and according to the testimony of our top mili-
tary representatives in China, the Nationalist armies were never
defeated for lack of ammunition or supplies.

Senator Hickenlooper. And during this period the Chinese Com-
munists had had turned over to them the captured Japanese supplies
which the Russians had captured upon the surrender of the Japanese
troops up in Manchuokuo, or those territories, is that correct?

Dr. Lattimore. There are two aspects to that question. Senator.
One is that of course the Russians turned over supplies. At the same
time, all supplies surrendered to Americans inside the Great Wall were
turned over to the Chinese Government, and I seem to recall a state-
ment by General Marshall to the effect that the Japanese arms which
we supplied exceeded in quantity those which the Russians supplied. _

Moreover, the Russians seemed for once to have been fairly clever m
Manchuria; that is, instead of indulging in the cruder kind of Com-
munist tactics, they turned over their arms largely simply to the village

people. The National Government then made one

Senator Hickenlooper. May I ask

Dr. Lattimore. Of its usual mistakes. It trusted these people, and
they lined up with the Communists.

Senator Hickenlooper. Isn't it a fact that the Russians had a policy
of organizing revolutionary groups in villages under leaders, turn-
ino- over the arms and equipment so that those revolutionary groups
would go out from those small villages and territories and capture
some more territory ? • nr

Dr. Lattimore. I do not know how they w^orked that m Man-
churia, Senator. The Russian policy, I should think, would be in
some cases simply to distribute arms and cause confusion, and in



STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 449

Other cases to distribute arms in a more organized way. One can cer-
tainly exi)ect tlie Russians to do everything they could to capitalize
on tJie situation.

Senator Hickenlooper. At about what time did vou first become
couvinoed that it was futile for us to continue aid to Chiang Kai-shek
or the Aationahst Government of Cliina, and that we should pull out«
JJr. L/ArriMORE. I think, Senator, that as early as 1945, the end of
the Avar with Japan, I was very much afraid that a resort to civil war
on the part of the Nationalist Government in order to restore unified
control over China would end in disaster and end in a more Com-