munist situation rather than a less Communist situation.

Senator Hickexlooper. ''Eesort to civil war"— would you amplify
that a little bit ? You said "a resort to civil war by the Nationalist
Government of China." Do you mean organization of revoltino-
groups within China? °

Dr. Lati'imors. No; I mean the insistance that all armed forces in
China must surrender to the National Government without neo-otia-
tion; that all the people everywhere in the part of China libe^'rated
from Japanese control must submit to the orders of the National Gov-
ernment mstead of being allowed to elect their representatives to the
National Government, and so on,

I was very much afraid that any authoritarian attitude of that kind
would start driving people into the arms of the Communists

Senator HicKEXLO(^PER. Were you familiar with the at least alleged
attitude of ( hiang Kai-shek that you could not do business with the
Communists, you couldn't trust tliem, and if they ixot their heads into
the tent the camel would soon be clear in and take "the tent over?

i have never met Chiang Kai-shek. I don't know what his personal
attituc e is, but it is generally reported that that has been his firm
attitude, that the Communists cannot be trusted, that there can be no
dealing with the Communists because they do not deal on a basis of
keeping their word or keeping their promises, and that it was futile
and fatal to China to attempt to deal with the Communists and take
thein into the Government. Were you familiar with that attitude ?

Dr. Lattimore. I wasn't Chiang Kai-shek's political adviser for a
year and a half for nothing. Senator, and I was thoroughly^familiar
with that attitude and I agreed with him. I didn't think that it would
be possible to settle anything in China by getting the generalissimo
and the top Communists into one room and writing out an agi-eement
It seemed to me that the only thing that would strengthen the position
of the generalissimo was not an agreement of that kind, but goino- fo
the people of China with some kind of a program that would bono-
their support around behind him, instead of driving them into the
arms of the Communists. If he had had enough of the people on his
side, he could have negotiated with anvbody in perfect security. But
when his subordinates were committing excesses of corruption and
brutality that were driving people into the arms of the Communists
he was doomed. '

Senator Hick!:nlo;)Per. Weren't tliere excesses of brutality and
corruption on the part of the Communists recorded in China?

Dr. Lattimore. There were considerable excesses of brutality on .
the part of the Communists, and in varying periods and varyino-
geographical regions. I have mentioned something about that prob*^



450 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

Jem in a book of mine published in 1944 called The Making of Modern
China. However, it seems to be the general opinion of American
observers that the Communists have been much freer of corruption
than the National Government, Both sides have resorted to massacre
and that kind of thing, but the Communist government has, by gen-
eral testimony, been more honest.

Senator Hickenlooper. Then let me get your opinion straight.
I understood you a while ago to say that you supported the policy of
bringing the Chinese Communists into the government along with
the Nationalists in a coalition government.

Dr. Lattimoee. Yes.

Senator Hickenlooper. Then I understood 3^ou to say that you
were familiar with Chiang Kai-shek's attitude that you could not do
business with the Communists, and that you supported that policy.
I think probabl}^ there is a very plausible explanation for it, but would
you amplif}^ that? How can you reconcile the two ideas?

Dr. Lattimore. The ]Doint is this. Senator, that up to the time that
I resigned as Chiang Kai-shek's political adviser, namely the end of
1942, there was still time for prelimiuaiy reforms. But by the time
that General Marshall was negotijiting in China most of the oppor-
tunity had been lost. Millions of people had already gone over to
the Communists. And if tlie Communists had the support of X
million people, you had to negotiate with them to that extent, not
because they were honest, not because they were Communists, but
because they had that amount of support, and from then on the only
way in which to salvage the situation was to get going in China some-
thing that had never existed before, but at least enough of the begin-
nings of parlimentary democracy so that the people could begin to
change their own leadership. That was the only way to get at the
people behind the Communists.

Senator Hickenlooper. And it became apparent to you at that
lime, did it not, that if Chiang's forces of government continued to
deteriorate, he would eventually be defeated in China, is that correct?

Dr. Lattimore. That is correct.

Senator Hickenlooper. And a substantial factor in Chiang being
abe to sufetain himself at least during a certain period after the war
was the aid he was getting from America. Was that an important
factor ?

Dr. Lattimore. I think, Senator, that would be difficult to prove.
It could be argued that reliance on American support made the worst
of the people who surrounded Chiang Kai-shek unwilling to concede
reforms. There is also the fact that so many of the American-
equipped and American-trained forces surrendered to the Communists
en masse with their American arms, so I think it would be very diffi-
cult to argue that the factor of American support was what enabled
Chiang to survive as long as he did.

I mean, I think the American support was in the end destmictive
of him. rather than supportive of him.

Senator Hickenlooper. Then, of course, we did finally pull cIcrt
out of active aid to China, and the policy was announced early this
spring or late in the winter of withdrawing su])port. Today would
you say that the mainland of China is quite completely under the
dominion and control of the Communist government of China?



STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 451

Dr. L ATTiMORE. I sliould say that today the mainland of China is
so completely under the control of the Connnunists that it will be im-
possible for Chianij; Kai-shek to come back from Formosa and recover
the mainland. There will, however, probably for years, continue to
be a certain amount of internal disturbance on the mainland of China,
but the possibility that that internal disturbance could be politically
caj)tuied by Chiang is not a good political bet.

Senator Hickenlooper. When did you conclude that the fall of
Chiang Kai-shek on the mainland of China was inevitable?

Dr. Lattimore. I shoidd say — I am trying to see how closely I can
date this — early in 1047, soon after General ISIarsliairs return from
China.

Senator Ttdixgs. I would like to know what the pleasure of the
connnittee is. It is now 1 o'clock. What would be your idea about
the continuance of the hearing?

Senator IMcMahon. Come back at 2 : 30.

Senator Tydixgs. Senator Green, is 2 : 30 satisfactory to you ?

Senator Greex. Entirely. I would also in that connection like to
ask whether this is an investigation of disloyalty ?

Senator Tydings. How about you, Dr. Lattimore? Would that
meet with your convenience?

Dr. Lattimore. Senator. I am completely at your disposal.

Senator Lodge. How long would you plan to run this afternoon?

Senator Ttdixgs. It avouM deT:end a good bit on how much the
committee wants to question Dr. Lattimore.

I would like to say this, that this committee is set up to investigate
disloyalty in the State Department. I take it that Dr. Lattimore has
never been an employee of the State Department, but he has had an
auxiliary connection Avith it and been paid by the State Department
while he was on a Presidential mission. For that reason I think we
should lean over backward lest we be charged, as we have, with not
wanting to bring in everything that is pertinent. But my colleagues
have the right to ask any questions they want. I have no more to do
with this committee than they have, but I would like to point out, if
I might, with all good will, that our primary mission here is to find
out whether' the charges made against Dr. Lattimore are true or false,
to wit, that he is the head Red spy in American and to wit, that
he is a Communist; and I think we ought to confine ourselves
more to that phase of it. That is what we were created to find
out, rather than to go into these opinions, which, if I may express my
own opinion, seem a bit extraneous to the inquiry. However, that is
just my opinion. I have no control over the questions.

I am going to suggest, therefore, that when we do meet we try to
get back on the ball a little bit more so that we can get through with
him.

While we aiv at it. Dr. Lattimore, Senator McCarthy told me yester-
day that he had some witnesses that he hopes to get before the com-
mittee. He said he is going to notify me Tuesday morning of the
names of these witnesses, so I may issue subpenas to bring them here.
I do not know whether these are witnesses who are going to appear
against you or someone else, but you are invited — you and your at-
torneys — to be present at all these hearings where we have these wit-
nesses, in case your name is involved.



452 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

Senator Lodge. For the purpose of your own plan, I would like to
say that I presume that Dr. Lattimore will be available for the next
few weeks for questioning in executive session. Is that not right?

Dr. Lattimore. I am entirely at the disposal of the committee,
Senator.

Senator Lodge. I think most of the cross-examination — in fact all
of the cross-examination — that I will want to do will be in executive
session. There will, however, be a few questions that I would like
to ask him today on the record, which will take only 3 or 4 minutes.

Senator Tydings. After we have concluded our hearings dealing
with those persons who have been openly accused and who obviously
ought to have a right to openly defend themselves, it is the hope of
the chairman that the committee will sustain him in the point of view
that we will have the remainder of our sessions in executive session.
However, if names are mentioned publicly, charged with any offense,
we feel we must give them the opportunity to deny these charges pub-
licly. But I think we have gone far enough in it now to know that
this is not the wisest way to make this inquiry, and after these people
who have been accused all have had their opportunity to file written
statements or to come personally before the committee in open session,
I am very hopeful that we can get along with our business by taking
the circus attitude away from this and go on with our real investiga-
tion of disloyalty in the State Department.

Senator Hickexlooper. Mr. Chairman, because there may be some
implied criticism of my questions

Senator Tydings. No.

Senator Hickenlooper. Of Dr. Lattimore in what you said, I want
to call your attention to the fact that this is an investigation . I don't
approach Dr. Lattimore or any other witness with any predetermina-
tion for either side. But I do believe that as long as this issue has
been drawn, so long as certain allegations have been made, so long
as Dr. Lattimore is here, that it is not only in the interest of fairness
to him but to the whole investigation that he be given the fullest
opportunity to canvass any matters of allegations that either Senator
McCarthy has canvassed or that he has canvassed. It is in that spirit
that I am approaching him. I want to find his views.

Tlie allegation is made that he is an insidious fellow. I am not
approaching it from that standpoint or from any other standpoint.
But I think that bearing on that question very pertinently are his
views and opinions and the whole background. I think it is extremely
pertinent and it would be my opinion that Dr. Lattimore would wel-
come an opportunity to express himself on these things. I am happy
to give him an opportunity by way of questioning, and to also answer
questions in my own mind.

Senator Tydings. I would like to say to my colleague I implied
no criticism. It was really just an attempt, as I saw it, to get back
a little more on the beam. But every Senator is the keeper of his
own responsibilities under this resolution, and certainly I can be just
as wrong in my own opinions as any other member of the committee.
I stated it for whatever it is worth.

We will take a recess until 2 :30 this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 1 : 05 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 : 30 p. m. of
the same day.)



STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY IN\^ESTIGATION 453

ArrERNOON SESSION

Senator Tydixgs. The committee will come to order.

While we wait for Senator Hickenlooper to return and continue
his examination of Dr. Lattimore, Senator McMahon, of Connecti-
cut, a member of tho conunittee. tells me he desires to ask one or two
questions.

Senator :\rcMahort?

Senator McMaiion. Dr. Lattimore, you mentioned, in the course
of your testimony, a n.ian named Kohlberg.

Dr. Lattijiore. K-o-h-l-b-e-r-";.

Senator ]\Ic]\Iahox. Who is Kohlberg?

Dr. Lattimore. Senator, I don't rightly know. He pretends to be
an expert on me. but I do not want to pretend to be an expert on him,
or his origin, previous history, and so on. All I know is that he is a
man that has had it in for the Institute of Pacific Relations for a
long time, has attacked it, and has, over the years, built up a long
story of allegations against me. and I found it curious and inter-
esting that in Senator McCarthy's charges, so many of the charges
were taken parallel, word for word from charges that Kohlberg had
made, that had proved to be wild allegations years ago.

Senator McMaiion. Have you ever met him?

Dr. Lattimore. Never met him, sir.

Senator McMahon. Have you any mutual acquaintances that you
know of ?

Dr. LATToroRE. Well, some of the people connected with the In-
stitute of Pacific Relations must have met him personally. I mean,
he was at one time a member of the Institute of Pacific Relations,
and he condui^ted tliis proxy fight in the Institute of Pacific Rela-
tions. So, other people connected with the institute must have met
him.

Senator ^r(\>L\.iiON. Well, as far as you know, has he been in
business in the Far East, has lie any far eastern interests?

Dr. Lattimore. Yes, sir, as far as I know: he used to be an im-
porter of lace from the coast of China, That is an industry in China
in which chi.ld labor is very extensively employed, and it provided
a cheap conmiodity for importation into this country.

Senator M(']\L\iion. Does he live in China, or has he lived in
Chiiin^

Dr. LAn'T:\!OKE. I kncnv th'it lie has been on visits to China. I
doubt if he has ever lived in China. I doubt very much if he knows
a word of Chinese.

Senator McMahon. Now, who is this man Goodwin that you
talked about ?

Dr. La'itimork. He is a man, sir, vrho has connections with the
Chinese Nationalist Government — the — what is it. now — there is a
representation here of the National Resources Commission of the
Chinese Govei'ument ; and. there is also a Chinese Information
Service. He is connected with all of those.

Senator jNIcMahox. Is he a lawyer by profession, do you know?

Dr. Lattimore. I don't know, sir. .

Senator Mc^NLvuon. Have you ever met him ?

Dr. Lattsimore. No, not to my knowledge.



454 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

Senator McMahon. You made some point of the fact that he was
retained at a salary that you gave as twenty-some-odd-thousands, and
corrected it to 36,000.

Dr. Lattimore. That is right.

Senator McMaiton. What is his importance? Why do you refer
to him in your testimony ?

Dr. Lattimore. Because I understand that he is registered as a
lobbyist, connected with a foreign power, and therefore has to register
in that way ; and, I understand that he is connected with Kohlberg
and various other people who have been conducting this campaign
to secure all-out aid to General Chiang Kai-shek, and to accuse any-
body who doesn't support Chiang Kai-shek of being anti-Kuomintang,
and has distributed Kohlberg's material. This man Kohlberg gets
out a lot of mimeographed material, and Goodwin has been distribut-
ing it for him.

Senator MgMahq]^. How do you know that?

Dr. Lattimore. I have seen some of the material, sir.

Senator McMaiion. Well now, is that all the connection that you
can give us about Kohlberg and Mr. Goodwin with this business?
Do you know of any other connection that is evident, as far as you
are concerned? Are they around Washington, as far as you know?

Dr. Lattimore. I don't know whether Mr. Kohlberg maintains
offices here. I understand his residence is in Xew York. I think a
little inquiry might show that both he and Goodv\'in have been around,
while Senator McCarthy was preparing his material. I think it \\i\\
be interesting to look into that.

Senator McMaiiox. Is that a suspicion, or do you have some evi-
dence upon which you base that suggestion ?

Dr. Lattimore. I am simply very much interested in this extra-
ordinarily close parallel betw^een the Kohlberg charges and the Mc-
Carthy charges.

I presume that Mr. Goodwin, being a lobbyist for the Chinese Gov-
ernment, has some sort of headquarters here in Washington, and I
understand that they are at the Metropolitan Club, that he operates
from there.

Senator McIMahon. The Metropolitan

Dr. Lattimore. Metropolitan Club.

Senator McMahon. I am a member of that club.

Dr. Lattimore. That was stated in a story in the St. Louis Post
Dispatch.

Senator McMahon. Well, is it your feeling that Kohlberg and
Goodwin, I do not wish to j^ut words in your mouth, nor do I wish
to (IraAv deductions, but I want to get it clear — are you im^^lying that
Kohlberg is behind these charges against you ?

Dr. Lattimore. Kohlberg has been making charges against the
Institute of Pacific Relations for years. They very frequently
involve me.

Then these recent charges by Senator ]McCarthy, they not merely
hash over but even reproduce verbally the same charges, I have a
feeling that Kohlberg is in there trying to get Lattimore.

Senator MuMahon. Well now, if I felt that way, I would certainly
try to know^ everything that I could about Kohlberg, and frankly you
do not seem to have done very much investigating of his background
and his activities.



STATE DEPARTAIEXT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 455

Dr. Lattimore. Senator, several years ago lie published an attack
on me in a magazine called "Cliiiiese Monthly,'' published here in
A\'asiungton.

Senator McMaiiox. AMiat do you call that?

Dr. Latti.moke. Chinese Monthly, and I wrote to the editor of that
magazine, 1 have forgotten his name now, and asked for a chance to
put in a rejoinder, in which 1 })ointed out his inaccuracies, and so
iVn-th : but, that is the only step I have taken. I felt that I was a man
witli a perfectly clear and open record, and that if people were going
around making malicious charges of this kind, probably the most
dignitied thing to do was simplj^ to ignore them.

Senator Mc^Mahon. It might ba dignified, but it was not very
sensible.

Dr. Lathmore. Well, Senator. Kohlberg is a very wealthy man.
If he wants to make it a hobby to go after a man like me, he can alford
it. A num like myself cannot afford to put a lot of money into doing
the same kind of thing that he is trying to do to me.

Senator McMahox. Do you know anything about Kohlberg's rela-
tions with the present Nationalist Government of China ^

Dr. Lattimore. Well, I liave never heard that he has registered
as a lobbyist, or anything of that kind. He is a man of private means
and can aiford to do what he likes. I certain, judging by the tone of his
mimeograplied releases which go out over and over and over again all
the time, his fanatical support of the Nationalist Government

Senator McMahox. But. you know nothing of any relations that
he has with any Chinese officials?

Dr. Lattimore. I have no evidence, sir. As I say, I have not gone
into the matter.

Senator McMahox. Have you ever transmitted any intelligence
of any kind to any intelligence officers of the Soviet Government?

Dr. Lattimore. Never.

Senator McMaiigx. On any subject ?

Dr. Lattimore. On no subject.

Senator McMahox*. Has anyone ever identified, or been identified
to you as an officer of the Soviet Government's Intelligence Service,
or an agent of the Soviet Government ?

Dr. Lattimore. I have met memliers of the Soviet Government, for
instance, when I was on the trip with Vice President Wallace. Nat-
urally, Soviet officials were assigned to accompany the mission. I
had met people at the Soviet Embassy here. I went and called on
Ambassador Litvinov, for instance, when he was Ambassador here,
and I was adviser to the Generalissimo. I have met people, of course,
that I know were agents ; that is, employees or members of the Soviet
Government, and, of course, I always assume that anybody who is in
the em]doy of the Soviet Government is also within the ramifications
of the Soviet Intelligence Service.

Senator Tydixgs. Senator Hickenlooper, would you care to con-
tinue your examination?

Senator HirKEXLOOPER. Senator Lodge has to catch a plane, and I
would like for him to ask sucli fuiestions now as he may have.

Senator Tydix-gs. Senator Lodge ?

Senator Lodge. Can you tell us a little something about your biog-
raphy, education, where you were born, and so forth ?

68970— 50— pt. 1 30



456 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION

Dr. Lattimore. I was born, Senator, right here in Washington,
D. C. My parents went out to China in the year 1901. I was born in
1900. My parents went out in the year 1901 wlien I was less than a
year old.

My father was teaching in the Chinese Government Educational
Service, first in college, and then, universities. I remained in China
until I was about 12 years old, going on 13, and then my mother took
me and several other children to Switzerland. My father's idea was
that I should get a good start in French and German, and then come
on home for my high school and college education.

Those plans were interrupted by the First AVorld War. I hap-
pened to be caught in England on a summer's vacation when the war
broke out. Owing to that accident, I remained in England for 5 years,
while my mother took the other children back to China. So, I was in
school in England for 5 years.

Then, at the age of 19, I went back to China. I first went into a
business firm, one of the old-line British firms there. Then, I left
that and took a job for a year on a newspaper in Tientsin ; then, went
back into business, and I remained in business for another 5 or G years—
about 6 years.

1 got rather restless with the ordiiiarv treaty-port life in China. I
worked very hard to acquire the Chinese language, or to reacquire it.
1 had known it in my childhood, and I used to do a lot of trouble shoot-
ing for my firm, that is, up in the interior when things went wrong
there, I would go up and find out what

Senator Lodge. Wliat kind of firm was it, Dr. Lattimore?

Dr. Lattimore. We used to export from China wools, straw braid,
sheep casings, hogs' bristles, anything that China exported, and we
were agents for the importation of machinery, dyes, cotton goods,
anything that China imported.

Consequently, in the course of this work, especially as I specialized
in work in the interior, directly with the Chinese merchants, I got
a considerable down-to-earth knowledge of the way Chinese economics
worked.

I have often felt it to be a great advantage since, that when the-
oretical questions of Chinese economics come up, I always think back
to some particularly tough problem that I was assigned to by my firm,
and I i-emember how the problem worked, and what the men were like
that did it, and so on.

Senator Tydings. Doctor, will you speak a little louder, please, be-
cause some of the newspapermen tell me they are having a little
difficulty following you.

Dr. Lattimore. Surely.

Finally, as the result of this work, one time I got up to the end
of the railway where the caravans were coming down from central
Asia with wool. There was a civil war on, and my assignment was
to maneuver the trainload of wool through a Chinese civil war, which
I eventually managed to do. But, I was most interested in seeing —
these camels came all the way dow^n from central Asia, 1,200 or 1,500
miles, and there the camels met by the side of this modern railway