Senator Green would like to be heard on this matter.
Senator Greex. I would like to ask the witness first whether he has
given these names to the FBI.
Mr. BuDEXz. Yes, sir.
Senator Green. All of them {
Mr. BiDEx?. Yes, sir.
The reason that I mentioned this is not because of any personal
preference The reason is because, well, I think in executive session
I could better explain the position of certain of these gentlemen
Senator Greex. Have you also given to the FBI all the evidence
you have against each?
Mr. BuDEXz. I am not certain of that. Senator.
Senat4)r Greex. You should.
Mr. BuDEXz. I should, but the point is, I have given more time
Senator to the FBI than any man in the United States. Sometimes I
give 18 hours a week. I do not mean that I shouldn't do better than
that. I am trying to make amends for some of the things I did but
there is just a physical limit to what I can do. I have been so occu])ied
with prosecutions— you understand. Senator, in the prosecution of the
II Communist leaders I devoted every day that I had a holiday, in-
cluding my Avhole Christmas holiday, to the Government representa-
tives and to the FBI. Well. I mean, I can't give the FBI everythincr
1 know because of the physical limitations. That is, I sliall jVive tS
tiiem, before I shall make anything public, all the information I have.
494 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION
Senator Green. Do I understand that yon have some evidence
against some of these persons wliich you have not given to the 1^ 131 i
^'llif B^^ENZ. Yes, sir; there is. And that is only due to physical
"senator Green. Yes. Then I think you are not in a position to give
it to the committee for the same reason, is that not so i ... , y
Mr BuDENZ. I think that is correct— well, to the committee^ i
would have to consider very seriously. You see, m giving evidence a
man has to give some consideration to the circumstances and the tac.s
surrounding them, and that is another matter involved here that 1
want to think over very carefully, exactly what I can honestly say
about these defendants. . , .. ^ ,i v^.^^ ;-p
Senator Green. Why do you suggest givmg it to the committee it
you haven't and do not propose to give it to the FBI i
Mr BuDENZ. Oh, Senator, I only meant to give to the committee
those facts which the committee thinks in good conscience I can give it.
That is to say, I do not intend to give to the committee, unless they
insist upon it, evidence which I have not given to the h Bi.
Senator Green. Then you do not propose of your own yohtion to
give to the FBI all the evidence you plan to give to the committee (
Mr Budenz. Oh, ves ; I do. I intend to give to the FBI everything,
and have to the best of my ability given to them every bit of mtorma-
lion As I say, if I may put it that way, I really do not know of any
man— of course the FBI may— who has given so much time to the
Government agencies as I have. That is to say, sometimes, although
this is not normal, I have given 18 hours a week. I gave all last year
every holiday that I had to assisting the Government m the trial ot
the 11 Communist leaders, and there are other matters ot that kind
which I do not wish to detail to take up your time. .
Senator Green. The reason I asked these questions is because i
attached a condition to my consent to the action of the committee, and
it is that you give to the FBI all the evidence that you propose to
oive to the committee. rr^-, , â– , i
"" Mr. BiTDENz. I will be glad to do that. Senator. That has always
been mv attitude. Senator. -, -, p x- ^ i «
Senator Tydings. Senator Lodge has asked for time to make a
^ Senator Lodge. In view of this interruption, T would like to repeat
my conviction, which I have often expressed before, that these public
pTOceedin-s in all Drobability hamper our investigative agencies and
certainly in.iure the American position abroad, and m the tuture i
ho])e that this and all similar investigations will be energetically car-
ried on behind closed doors, and that is where I will ask my questions.
It is obviously impossible to make a determination here as to what—
that is, a certain determination as to what— it is that you can say in
public and what it is that you must say in private, insofar as the best
interests of the United States are concerned, so we ought to do this
in private and then come out with our conclusions m public, m my
^^â„¢nator Tydings. We will have an executive meeting of this com-
mittee at 10:30 a.m. in room G-23 in the Capitol. It will be very
proper for any member of the committee to make a motion about
STATE DEPARTMENT E.MPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 495
future hearings at that time for the consideration of the full com-
mittee.
Proceed, sir.
Mr. BuDENZ. Continuing, Senator, it Avas there reported by Jack
Stachel that Mr. Lattimore had been in touch with some of the de-
fendants, or they had been in touch with him, and that he had been
of service in the Amerasia case. That is a summary of my evidence.
Now, in addition to that, however, I would like to say that up until
1940 or '41 — of course when I say it is a summary of my evidence, it
isn't the full body of it. In 1940 or '41, up until 1940 or '41, the Polit-
buro of the Communist Party issued throughout the country on onion-
skin documents which were official documents sent to the national
committee members, and also I can't say to my knowledge, but to my
best information, officially received, sent to iSIoscow. These Politburo
meetings were full of the whole discussions which were conducted.
They were on onionskin paper and were sent to a common center
through a mail drop and distributed to the members of the national
committee. I recall that very specifically in Chicago, for example,
wliere we received them through Morris Childs, representative of the
Communist Party there.
These documents in the discussions on the Far East referred to
various people in the party by their initials, because otherwise they
would be disclosed, and in those documents in the discussion of Mr.
Lattimore his name appeared under the initial "L" or "XL." I was
so advised by Jack Stachel in the office in New York and as a matter
of fact, these onionskin papers were considered so confidential that
we were forbidden to burn them. We had to tear them up in small
pieces and destroy them through the toilet. Then later we were or-
dered to give them to a common center.
As a matter of fact, much of the Communist devices are carried on
through these onionskin instructions, which constantly are carried
forward. The reason burning is forbidden is that it would create at-
tention and would leave embers.
However, I do wish to state that on these reports to the Politburo,
some of which may be available, 'though I don't know where they
would be— there is the initial "L" or "XL" on far eastern affairs,
which refers to Mr. Lattimore. We were so advised and instructed
for our information.
The third thing I would like to bring to the attention of the com-
mittee is that with due diligence and investigation — and I am just
making this as a recommendation, not in any way passing comment
on the investigation, I think you understand — corroborative evidence
can be obtained. I would recommend to this committee that they sub-
pena Frederick Vanderbilt Field, all of his financial accounts and all
of his records. I accuse him here as a Soviet espionage agent who
used money to influence the Institute of Pacific Relations.
When I say I accuse him, Senator, I have not all the facts. I accuse
him on the basis of information stated by Mr. Field in reports. I
recommend that Philip Jaffe be subpenaed, and that Jack Stachel
be subpenaed, and perhaps Earl Biowder, but certainly Jack Stachel,
as the man who is the center of all these instructions and activities,
and as the man who gave me direct instructions in these cases.
496 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION
It niiiy be that as Communists they will not corroborate fully my
evidence, but one thing can be elicited from them, and that is a great
number of facts which will support strongly what I have to say.
In addition to that I am sure, although this was confined, Senator,
to a very small group — we must understand the Communist con-
spiracy, namely that it is not a democratic body, operating through
rings and subconnnittees. Although this was confined to a small
group, I am sure there are other witnesses that can be obtained that
will testify on this matter.
Then, in addition to that, I have not the time to present, although
certainly I wish to appreciate the courtesy of the committee in per-
mitting me to appear on Thursday rather than Monday; I have not
had the opportunity to examine the many documents that I can present
to this committee in what I consider to be corroboration. The commit-
tee may think otherwise, but that is my thought.
I would like to have the privilege of about 2 weeks to present this
documentary evidence, in order that it w^ill be done properly. I
would be very glad to do that, and to present to the committee docu-
mentary evidence which will take me time to assemble.
However, I do wish to present, in corroboration of my testimony,
an article by a man who is an expert on the Far East, the Rsverend
James F. Kearney, of the Society of Jesus, in his article on Dis-
aster In China appearing in the Columbia, the official organ of the
Knights of Columbus, in September 11)41). In this article Father
Kearney declares, "There are those who believe, though, that no
Americans deserve more credit for the Russian triumph in the Sino-
American disaster than Owen Lattimore and a small group of his
followers.'' But Father Kearney doesn't make this charge. He ex-
amines Mr. Lattimore's record and his declarations and his activities
to support it.
I wish to present this to the committee as the first corroborative
evidence.
Senator Green. May I ask you whether you have given the FBI
these documents, submitted them to them, which you propose to submit
to the committee ?
Mr. BuDENZ. I think that I have, Senator.
Senator Green. Don't you know whether you have or not?
Mr. BuDENz. Well, Senator, I have cooperated with the Federal
Bureau of Investigation to the utmost of my ability.
Senator Green. For a long time. You told us that before.
Mr. BuDENZ. Yes, sir.
Senator Green. I want to know whether you submitted these docu-
ments to the FBI.
Mr. BuDENz. My impression is that I have.
Senator Green. Don't you know ?
Mr. BuDENz. I know that I have called their attention to this docu-
ment and to the next one I intend to present.
Senator Green. You spoke about documents it would take you 2
weeks to prepare.
Mr. Bfdenz. Those documents, I have not had an opportunity to
present those.
Senator Green. Have you given the same advice to the FBI that
you have kindl}^ given this committee as to whom we ought to inves-
tigate?
STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 497
Mr. BuDENz. Well, the FBI knows pretty well that I think Frederick
Viuulerbilt Field should be investigated.
Senator (treex. That is not my question.
Mr. BuDEXZ. I misunderstand.
Senator Green. :My question is, have you given the FBI the same
advice that vou have given this committee?
Mr. BuDEXz. I don't know that I have. I am not certain of that.
That is to sav, after all, as I say, there is a physical limitation to how
manv conferences I can have with the FBI. I gave to the FBI every-
thing tliey ask of me, and in addition to that, of course, from time to
time I have to check on the information.
Senator Gkeex. Don't you think it is the duty of a good American
citizen to notify the FBI when you have suspicions, based on evidence,
and to supply "them with the evidence? Don't you think that is the
dutv of everv good American citizen?
Mr. BroExzr Well. Senator, if you will examine the hours I spent
Avith the FBI giving them information from the first 3 days of Notre
Dame until the present day, I will say, unless the record can be chal-
lenired successfully, that no American has given so many hours to the
FbI, and at all houi-s of the day and night, and at any time, as I have.
I will say. Senator, that I believe every bit of information should
be given to"^ the FBI, but there is a physical limitation, particularly
when you have to have a responsible position and have to check care-
fully on what a^ou present to them.
Senator Greex. If you think this evidence is so important that this
committee should investigate it thoroughly within '2 weeks, don't you
think you should have brought it to the attention of the FBI?
Mr. BuDEXz. As I go forward I wish to assure you. Senator, that
I shall give every document to the FBI.
Senator Greex. I am not asking about what you are going to do
in the future. I am asking about your conduct in the past. Don't
you think it was your duty to bring it to the attention of the FBI?
Mr. BtTJEXz. I do think "it was my duty, but I also Icnow that physi-
cally I have certain limitations.
Senator (jreex. We all have.
Mr. Bt:t)exz. And I contend that 18 hours a Aveek of the time of a
person with the FBI— and I do not want to represent that that is a
jegular thing, and I contend that every week holiday and my whole
Christmas holidays and all other times'l can be reached, I give to the
FBI, or I mean to government agencies. I cannot see how I can do
more. I am ready to give to the FBI every bit of documentary evi-
dence I have, and that has been my attitude alwavs. In fact, I try as
hard as I can always to give the FBI materials first of all. In fact,
that is my general practice.
Senator Greex. Then if I may summarize your testimony, it is that
you have not given this documentary evidence to the FBI, and you
have not given tliem the advice y<>i' have given us.
Mr. BuDEXz. Well, Senator, I believe that that may be in part tech-
nically correct, but I would like you to consider tluit on these docu-
ments I have called them to the attention of the FBI. Whether I have
physically handed them over to them I do not know. I have called
them to their attention.
498 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION
In regard to the recommendations I made about Frederick Vander-
bilt Field and Philip Jaffe and Mr. Stachel, well, I did not know
whether that was essential. I give them information ; I didn t know
it was essential to make recommendations to them.
Senator Tydings. Proceed with your statement, :Mr. Budenz. Go
1 n p *i f I
Mr. Budenz. I would like to also present as the first part of the cor-
roborative evidence, though by no means that which I shall eventually
present to the committee, the New Masses of October 1937.
Senator Tydings. You know that magazine well, as I believe i can
identify it. That is a Communist magazine, is it not ?
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir. u v i i
Senator Tydings. Is that an official organ of the party, or published
independently bv Communists? , ^ i .
Mr. Budenz. That is officially under the control ot the party,
although it has a separate organization, but it reports regularly to
the Politburo and is financed in part by the party. As a matter ot
fact, it is completely controlled by the party. It, by the way, is not
in existence anv more. They have changed it over to a new magazine.
But the New Masses was the Communist Party publication for the
intellectual and professional classes. ivr t ^ i
This is an account of the trip of Mr. Lattimore, Mr. Jatte, and
Mr. Bisson to Red China, written by Mr. Philip J. Jaffe, and at the
end w^e have a commendation here of what happened by Miss Agnes
Smedley, whom I know from her ow^n admission to me nearly— let s
see— 30* years ago, when she was married to Eoi, the Indian Commu-
nist leader, as a Soviet spy, and Miss Agnes Smedley ends up here—
I have further confirmatory evidence of that, through the reports ot
the late Harry Dennis and others, but Miss Smedley herself acknowl-
edo-ed that to me when she was married to Roi, the Indian Communist
lea'cler, under circumstances which I could not divulge, but^she con-
cludes, at the end of this statement of the trip of Philip Jaffe, Owen
Latimore, and T. A. Bisson, with what it meant to the Chinese Com-
munists, and Mr. Jaffe publishes it here in the New Masses.
I also wish further to present the article which was the subject of
discussion in the Politburo in 1943 by Mr. T. A. Bisson— Bisson or
Bisson, I have heard it pronounced both ways— on China s part m
the coalition war, and this is the organ, by the way, of the American
Council of the Institute of Pacific Relations, in which you shall find
that he asserts that Nationalist China is feudal China and Red China
is democratic China. . ., , <.
Later on, as I have stated, I would like the privilege, because ot
the shortness of the time, to present a considerable analysis of docu-
ments further bearing on this matter, documents which I could not
get access to in the brief time before me.
In conclusion on this statement, Senator, I wish to say very strongly
that I am a lay figure in this matter. I am under subpena, and I have
no interest whatsoever in a partisan way in this controversy. Indeed,
I would appeal for a bipartisan, strongly l>ip-rtisrn. policy against
communism. That is mv position and has always been my position,
and it is in that capacity that I appear here, unwilling, reluctant,
statino- again that I stand for a strong bipartisan policy against com-
munism, which is the greatest danger that the United States has ever
confronted in its history.
STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 499
I know that because I could, if the committee had time, but they
liaven't, produce documentary evidence of Stalin's intention to conquer
the United States. That may seem absurd, and it may seem foreign
from this investigation, but I Avonld like to point out that Stalin
is constantly hailed — I have this : "Long live the leader of the working
people of the world, Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin." This is the organ
of the Cominform. coming into our country, among many of the
other seditious publications, advising the Communists how they shall
proceed. I do not bring that into this discussion in order to color
my testimony otherwise. I just bring it before the committee to
indicate my own attitude, namely, that this evidence could be multi-
plied a thousandfold in the declarations by Stalin that they are
expecting the world October, whereby the world Soviet dictatorship
sliall be established. That is their complete, undeviating policy, even
though they clothe it from time to time under changes in tactics.
There are many documentary Connnunist sources that would con-
firm this association. It is solely, then, in the effort to combat this
determination by Stalin to conquer the United States and establish
the world Soviet dictatorship that I come before this committee,
and for which I stand.
Senator Tydixgs Mv. Budenz, your exhibits will be put into the
record innnediatelv following your testimony. Will the clerk mark
thein ''Exhibit 7V' '-Exhibit" 75," and "Exhibit 70" in the order in
which they were presented, so they can be quickly identified in the
record ?
Have you finished, sir ?
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir.
Senator Green. I just wanted to ask one question.
In your last statement, and I think in the first statement you made
also, you stated that you gave this testimony reluctantly. I think
you said that.
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir.
Senator Green. Did you give it to Senator McCarthy reluctantly?
Mr. Budenz. I did not speak to Senator McCarthy at all.
Senator Green. I didn't ask you whether you spoke to him. But
did you furnish him the information reluctantly?
]\Ir. Budenz. I surely did, ver}^ reluctantly. As a matter of fact,
I appear everywhere; I call upon anyone who has to be associated
Mith me in any prosecution from Judge ISIcGoey up and down as
to whether I do not appear everywhere reluctantly, not because I do
not wish to cooperate with the Government but because I have ap-
peared so frequently that I believe there should be a halt at some
time to my public appearances.
Senator Green. Yes. But you intimated that you only gave this
because you were subpenaed.
^Ir. Bi DENz. That is correct.
Senator Green. Senator McCarthy didn't subpena you, did he?
Mr. Budenz. No, sir, he did not. However, Senator McCarthy does
not know, so far as I know, up to this minute, of my testimony. He
niay, through friends whom I have talked to, but I have not given
to Senator McCarthy my testimony, for the simple reason that I am
not associated with Senator ^McCarthy. As a matter of fact, I am
a nonpartisan person.
500 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION
Senator Green. But you knew that lie liad the information from
some source, did vou not ^ , , . -tt i i i t
Mr. BuDENZ. Oh, yes, sir; I knew he had it. He had only, as I
should call it, very fragmentary information.
Senator Green.' Was that given reluctantly too (
Mr. Budenz. 1 didn't give it. It was presented to me m part, it
was o-iven very reluctantly, and certainly I stated that I only give this
testimony when compelled to do so under subpena on a nonpartisan
basis Tliat has been my position for 5 years, and it shall continue
to be' Senator, because I can't make a speech here on my views now,
but I assure you this is not pleasing to me for many reasons.
Senator Green. I understand that.
Senator TYmNOs. Now I think the procedure that we agreed upon
tentatively was to turn the witness over to Mr. Morgan, counsel. A\ hen
he has concluded, the members of the committee may ask any questions
^'mi-^ MORGAN. Mr. Budenz, your testimony thus far has been con-
cerned, as I recall, with primarily four situations occurring m 19-x,
^^fow^beLre go\nt^ I would like for you again, at this point,
to indicate the ?xacr date, if you recall it. that you went into the Com-
mujiist Party, and the exact date you left the party
Mr' Budenz. I joined the party in August 1935, because of then-
Peoples' Front policy. I am not going to plead any apologie^, but i
dkl Accept at full value, you may recall it m 193o, the Seventh Con-
<Tress, and they stated that they were going to cooperate with demo-
?ratii organizations throughout the world, and that seemed to me
to be a very remarkable change. ^ â– , ^i .
I found, soon, it was not ; but I do not want to plead that as an ex-
cuse, because immediately I was compelled to make an oath to Stalm.
Therefore, I knew what I was doing.
I was convinced that the Soviet Union was the banner bearer of the
future progress of mankind. That was the reason I joined the Com-
''' Just a moment— T wanted to explain this, because that was in Au-
o-nst 19:]5 but I was instructed to remain under cover, that is to^say,
without open affiliation, until Earl Browder had returned from Mos-
cow When he returned, it was then decided, and Gerhart Lisler joined
in, and his voice was very powerful, in agreeing with me, I should be
an open Commmiist, and this was announced m the Daily A^ orker on
Octobsr 2, 1985. I remained in the party just exactly 10 years, until
October 11, 1945. ^ • • . i i foe fo
Mr M(iRG\N. The testimony that you are giving today relates to
the knowledge gathered by you during this 10-year period m the
party, is that correct? .^ ^ i
Mr Budenz. That is all I can testify to. Counsel.
Mr. Morgan. You are not presuming, therefore, to p^e us any
evidence with res])ect to the activities of anyone after October 11, lJ4o ?
Mr. Budenz. No, sir.
Mr. Morgan. Is that correct? . ^ , n . t
Mr Budenz. Except that I just confirmed it. I thought I was priv-
ileged to do so, to do that by Father Kearney's article which does go
beyond that period. However I, from my own knowledge, unofficial
STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 501
kn()wle(l<2:e of tlie (.•liiU'iutoi- presented, cannot testify to events be-
yond 19;;") — I cannot.
]Mr. jMokoan. Now, thus far in your statement, Mr. Hudenz, you
ha\e been jrivino: quite naturally, as I understand it, your undei'stand-
in^\ your impression by reason of tlie position, and it was a hi<j:h-level
position which you held in the Comnuuiist Party.
At this point, by way of e.xplainino- my line of interrogation, 1
would like to distintruish carefully, as we "o along here, between that
which you know of your own knowledge, and that concerning which
you have been told.
I would like to begin, initially, with what appears to be our proper
starting ])oint here, 1937, and ask you if that was the first time that