make the world Communist.
Senator Hickexlooper. And. m making the world Communist, do
you believe that they advocate the centralization of control of com-
munism in the worlcl, in Moscow ?
Dr. DoDD. That is a theoretical question that I cannot answer. If
the answer to that is "Yes," I mj^self would be opposed to it.
Senator Hickex'looper. Do you believe that there exists in this
country a Communist conspiracy to take over the Government of
the Ignited States either by stealth or by political activity?
Dr. DoDi). 1 believe that there is a firm determination on the part
of Communists to take over the Government of this country; yes, but
not by stealth or by guns.
Senator Hickexlooper. Do you believe that there exists in this
country a conspiracy in communism; that it is a conspiratorial opera-
tion in which they operate in secret, through secret agents, and use
surreptitious means to gain their ends ?
Dr. D(tDi). If we have investigations like Senator ^McCarthy is
ca.using to be made here, and terrorization, you aie goii'g to have more
and more secret work on the part of these people who have an un-
68970 — 50 — pt. 1 42
648 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION
popular political opinion. Necessarily, if you are trying to drive
certain people, or limit their activities, they are going to go under-
ground and become more and more secret and conspiratorial. It
is for that reason that I believe in exactly the opposite. I say, let
the Communist movement be free and you will be surprised how lim-
ited it would be, because it takes a great deal to take over a country like
the United States. You have to deal with a lot of people.
Senator Hickenlooper. Let us leave Senator McCarthy as an indi-
vidual out of this for a moment.
I would ask you if you believe that the Communist movement in
the United States is a conspiratorial movement to capture and take
conti'ol of the American system of government and establish a Soviet
system of government comparable to that which exists in Russia today ?
Dr. DoDD. We use different terms, so I cannot answer your ques-
tion. That is, that the Communists in this country do intend to
take power, and they become conspiratorial because they are driven
or pushed by repression.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do the Communists in this country aspire
to set up the type and kind of government over the people here that
exists in Soviet Russia today?
Dr. DoDD. I hardly think so, and for this reason : We began, with
Soviet Russia, with a country that was extremely backward, not indus-
trialized. Any Communist group or any group establishing control
in this country would have to deal very differently ^vith the people
of this country than they dealt with the minions of the Czars in 1917,
very differently.
Senator Hickenlooper. May I renew my question : Do you believe
it is the purpose of the Communists in this country to set up the same
general type of government and public administration over the people
of the United States as is existing in Russia today ?
Dr. DoDD. I believe they intend to establish socialism just as in
Russia socialism is established. As to the technique, as to the number
of committees, as to the type of government, there is no blueprint on
that. Senator Hickenlooper. There is no blueprint on that.
Senator Hickenlooper. Dr. Dodd, do you believe in the capitalistic
form of government?
Dr. DoDD. I will tell you that the capitalistic system has done a
great deal for our civilization. As an economist, I will tell you that
the capitalistic system has certain weaknesses which are inherent in
it, which will force a modification of our economic system of gov-
ernment. It cannot help it. We are a very different Government
today, with the kind of unemployment insurance and pensions for
tiade-unions, than we were 20 years ago.
Senator Hickenlooper. May I renew my question? Dr. Dodd, do
you believe in the present system of capitalistic government that we
have in the United States today, as it presently exists?
Dr. Dodd. I believe in the Government of the United States under
its Constitution. I believe, as far as the economy of the Government
is concerned, it is constantly evolving and shifting and changing as the
needs of the people shift and change.
Senator Hickenlooper. You were expelled, I believe you said, from
the party in June 1949. Will you again say what the reason for your
expulsion was at that time ?
STATE DEPARTMEGVJT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 649
Dr. DoDix The real reasons were a long and continued disagreement
with the party on many questions, both in the New York State board,
the national committee, and on various groups that I served. I entered
into a struggle in which I lost. Some of you gentlemen who fight
within your own parties can understand that. AVhen I lost, I got
thrown out.
Senator Hickenlooper. How long had that struggle been going on?
Dr. DoDD. As far as I was concerned, it was for 4 years, 1945 to 1949.
Senator Hickenlooper. So that from 1945 to 1949 you were gen-
erally, as we say, out in my country, "at outs" with the leadership of
vour party ; is that true ?
Dr. DoDD. I was in conflict with the leadership of ray party. I
hoped to win other people over.
Senator Hickenlooper. It is reasonable to assume, then, being in
conflict with the leadership of your party, that they did not take you
into their confidence very much during that period of time.
Dr. DoDD. They could not help but take me into their confidence,
because I held certain positions where they could not keep me out, and
the expulsion did not take place all at once. It was a long period.
I was a member of the State board, which met every single week,
for hours on end, in New York State. I was a member of the State
committee, which met frequently. I was a member of the national
committee, and a member of many of the national subcommittees.
Senator Hickenlooper. Now, Dr. Dodd, you are not now a member
of the Communist Party, I believe you said ?
Dr. DoDD. I am not.
Senator Hickenlooper. You have not been since 1949 ?
Dr. DoDD. Not since June of 1949.
Senator Hickenlooper. By what method did you disassociate your-
self with the party at that time ?
Dr. DoDD. Well, I ceased paying dues and I ceased going to any
meetings.
Senator Hickenlooper. And you were thereafter attacked by the
party ?
Dr. DoDD. The expulsion statement on me is pretty drastic. They
do not do that in the Republican Party or the Democratic Party when
they read you out of their party.
Senator Hickenlooper. Dr. Dodd, I will ask you whether, since
that time in 1949, you have at any time, at any place, to any person,
stated that you were still at heart a Communist ?
Dr. Dodd. I may have. I may have, Senator Hickenlooper. Sen-
ator Hicks
Senator Hickenlooper. Most people call me "Hicks" ; so that's all
right.
Dr. Dodd. If we did not have the table between us, I would —
Newspapers, for instance, made much of my expulsion. They just
piled in my office, and I did not know quite what I was doing, and
they asked me how I felt about it, and I said the things I believed
in when I joined the party, I still believe in. The fact that I do
not agree with the method of achieving these ends does not make me
foul my own intellectual nest. I believe in a strong fight against un-
employment, I am for a strong fight for peace.
650 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION
Senator Hickenlooper, The same principles underlying your Com-
mnnist belief, ^vhile you were a member of tlie party, you still be-
lieved in when you were expelled from the party ?
Dr. DoDD. Let me put it this way : Christianity has gone through
man}^ tight spots. There was an inquisition, there was the St. Bar-
tholomew Massacre, and all those things and yet i^eople did not stop
believing in Christianity when those bad things happened. I do not
believe in the Communist Party or its organization, or its method
of getting power in the United States. Wlien I say "its method"
I mean for a small minority group. I have come to the belief that
the need in this country is to unite the people of all the different
parties in all of the different faiths.
Senator Hickenlooper. For what purpose?
Dr. DoDD. For the purpose of achieving peace, the purpose of im-
proving the conditions of our people.
You cannot do it by the narrow little sectarian way of calling people
names.
Senator Hickenlooper. You are still, I take it, just as firm a believer
in your opinions now, as you were when you were in the Communist
Party?
Dr. DoDD. We do not change, Senator, as far as our fundamental
beliefs are concerned. It took me a long time to come to the place
where I believed in Socialism. I cannot change overnight, and I will
not change overnight.
Senator Hickenlooper. And
Dr. DoDD. And I would be a hypocrite if I did.
Senator Hickenlooper. You then are a Socialist today, in your own
definition, right ?
Dr. DoDD. I believe in the public ownership of the means of the
production. I believe the time will have to come when the Govern-
ment will have to take more and more part in the productive processes.
Senator Hickenlooper. You believe in Government ownership of
natural resources?
Dr. DoDD. I certainly do.
Senator Hickenlooper. And in transportation ?
Dr. DoDD. I certainly do.
Senator Hickenlooper. And in communications?
Dr. DoDD. I think it would help.
Senator Hickenlooper. And, when you say "you think it would
help"
Dr. DoDD. I do not think that it is going to happen all at once. I
would not be in favor of making it all happen at one time. There
would be too many dislocations in our economic system. I have to be
realistic about these matters. It is inevitable and it is coming.
Senator Hickenlooper. Now, do you believe that the Soviet Union
<^oday is a democratic movement, where the dignity of the individual
is preserved and recognized ?
Dr. DoDD. Well, I have never been to the Soviet Union, and my
answer that I give here may be colored by my own experience within
the party in New York.
I do believe that the Soviet Union has had to be more repressive
than we would have to be, because of the tremendous situation that
she had when she was first established. After all, in 1917, when they
made the revolution, they had three or four other countries parked on
STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 651
tlioir doorstep, on their bouiularies, and it was very difficult for tliem
and therefore the control of their people on the inside probably was
essential.
Personally, I rebel a<i"ainst any limitation of personal freedom un-
less it is in the interest of the arou]), and I do not suppose I would last
in the Soviet Union because I believe in freedom of speech and free-
dom of the press.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do yon believe the Soviet slave camps are
justified in their great social experiment?
Dr. DoDD. I do not know that there are slave camps. If there are,
they are not justified anywhere.
Senator Hickenixh)per. Do you believe that Premier Stalin — the
Soviet Union — is a great progressive world leader?
Dr. DoDD. Well, he is a historic figure — a great historic figure,
whether you like him or do not like him.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do you believe that he advocates and has
supported and has accomplishetl great social reforms in Russia to the
benefit of the individual citizen?
Dr. DoDD. Oh, I would say yes. After all, you have eliminated
illiteracy in the Soviet Union which was a curse upon the people in
1917.
Senator Hickenix)oper. And do you believe that the methods of dis-
tortion and untruth and misrepresentations that the Soviet representa-
tives have brought to all international conferences so far, are justified?
Dr. DoDD. Untruths and distortions and lies are never justified. I
have come to that conclusion — that is one conclusion I have come to
have in thinking about political questions.
The means never justified the end, because the means are always a
])ait of the end. You have to be clean all the way through. You can-
not reach through to the truth by untruthful methods.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do you believe the Soviet Union has fol-
lowed the truthful method, or have they used deception and deceit
and misrepresentation ?
Dr. DoDD. What was the specific question?
Senator Hickenlooper. Practically every specific rnestion that has
come u]) in the United Nations, and otherAvise.
Dr. DoDD. I am not an expert on the United Nations but I would
say that there is a war going on there for power. I would commend
our own American representatives. I think they have done a fine job
there.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do you believe the Soviet Union is justified
in excluding foreigners from free access and travel within the Soviet
Union ?
Dr. DoDD. I cannot judge for the Soviet Union on that question.
I personally believe in the freest kind of access. I believe in the
development of a one-world principle. I would like to see American
workers travel in the Soviet Union. I would like to see Soviet workers
travel in the United States. I would like to see Soviet students in
American universities and I would like to see American students in
Soviet universities.
I think, unless we get that kind of pers]iective. unless Joe Stalin
and Harry Truman get that kind of perspective, we will not have peace
in the world.
652 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION
Senator Hickenlooper. Do you believe that Stalin and the Politburo
are oppressors of the liberties of the individuals in the Soviet Union,
or do 3^ou believe that they are supporting and promoting the liberties
of the individuals in the Soviet Union?
Dr. DoDD. I have no real information upon that question and it
is very hard — let me tell you-^it is very hard for people here, when
we read the various publications — there is no such thing as an honest
press, with all apologies to the newspaper men. I mean, each one has
an ax to grind and almost you go mad trying to get at wliat the truth is.
So, I do not realh^ know what the answer to that is. I am disturbed
and I certainly would not condone the curtailment of freedom of the
people.
Senator Hickenlooper. I am speaking of the Soviet Union — what
do you think about the curtailment of liberties in the Soviet Union?
Dr. DoDD. I would not condone that whether the Soviet Union did
it or Harry Truman did it.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do you believe th;'.t the Soviet Union is
extending freedom or curtailing freedom ?
Dr. DoDD. That is a very general question, also. She is extending
freedom in the sense that she is taking away from people the spectre
of insecurity. I daresay that there has beeri a curtailment of political
freedom in doing that.
Now, that is a real problem before all of us: How far. when you
give people security, shall you curtail their freedom ?
The Mayan civilization did that. Everybody in the Mayan civili-
zation had a job and had security, but they had no freedom.
Senator Hickenlooper. And, the Mayan civilization collapsed?
Dr. DoDD. That is right, and we do not want ours to collapse.
Senator Hickenlooper. But, so far as IVfr. Stalin is concerned, and
the Soviet system, do you believe that they are contributing to the
progress of the individual in the world, or do you believe that it is
an oppressive system?
Dr. DoDD. Senator, what is the use of kidding ourselves ? You have
got the Soviet Union which covers one-sixth of the world. They have
extended their holdings to China, which covers a lot of territory. They
have a political philosophy in this world and if that means curtail-
ment of the individual, or curtailment of the individual likes or dis-
likes, I do not know. If the Soviet Union has done it, I condemn
it, but I think we are picking at flies on the tiger's nose.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do you advocate the establishment in this
country of the same kind of philosophy, political and economic, that
exists in the Soviet Union today?
Dr. DoDD. I am deeply committed to the general sovereign principle
of government in this country. As a matter of fact, it was because
I actually believed in the Jeffersonian principles that I got onto the
path of communism. That is a strange comment to make.
Senator Hickenlooper. It certainly is because I see no Jeffersonian
principle that comes within gunshot of that.
Dr. DoDD. Senator, vou should go bnr]c to reading Thomas Jefferson.
He has some pretty bloody statements in there.
Senator Hickenlooper. Getting back to my question : Do you ad-
vocate or believe in the establishment in this country of the same kind
of social and jDolitical philosophy and government existing today in
the Soviet Union ?
STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 653
Dr. DoDi>. I believe that our political cjovernment here in the United
States is all risiht. I have no fault to find with it. Our political gov-
ernment, Ave have a political democracy in this country, and if we do
not like the people who are in, we can change it by going to the polls.
I do believe we have to have a change and an extension on the economic
front.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do you believe that our Government in
this country, socially and economically, is the same as the Government
socially and economically in the Soviet Union today?
Dr. DoDD. It is not.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do j'ou favor our Government today, or
do you favor the Soviet Government type for this country ?
Dr. DoDD. I favor our Govermiient. but I tliink we can always learn
something from everybody. We got a lot of our democracy from
France. I think that we can learn certain things from the Soviet
Union, for instance, on their scientific front, where they have done
a great deal for longevity.
I am not against extending human life by using Soviet science.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do you think that the Soviet science has
progressed ahead of science in this country ?
Dr. DoDD. Oh, science is always uneven. Some scientists are always
discovering something in the United States and something else will
pop up over in Russia and something else will pop up somewhere else,
and it is an uneven kind of development.
Senator Hickenlooper. Since vou left the Communist Partv in
1944
Dr. DoDD. 1949.
Senator Hickenlooper. Forty-nine, excuse me — have you told any-
one at any time, at any place, that you were going back into the Com-
munist Party ?
Dr. DoDD. I never have and I never will.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do you believe that Premier Stalin is a
dictator?
Dr. DoDD. I cannot answer that. In all honesty, I cannot answer
that because the Soviets have a constitution and they have a method
of government. I do not know how far that is being carried out or
it is not. I rather expect it is a mucli more centralized form of gov-
ernment than we have here in the United States. For instance, no-
body would dare make the kind of statement in the Soviet Union that
was made about General Marshall here in the United States.
Senator Hickenlooper. And, do you belicA^e that anybody that made
that kind of a statement about General Marshall should be punished,
or imprisoned?
Dr. DoDD. I do not agree with the statement, but I will defend to
the end his right to make the statement.
Senator Hickenlooper. "WHiat do you think of the FBI. Dr. Dodd ?
Dr. Donn. They seem to be a very efficient arm of the Government.
Senator Hickenlooper. Do you believe that it should be encour-
aged, or do you believe that it is an oppressive organization?
Dr. Dodd. Well, I do not think that it is an oppressive organization.
It depends on how you people treat it. If you people are going to use
the FBI and extend it so that you have more policemen than you
have citizens, I think that it is a foolish kind of government to get
654 STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION
into; but, a reasonable amount of security of government requires,
if this Government is going to stand, it requires and needs security
and the FBI will be helpful. I cannot give you complete informa-
tion or a complete answer on that because I do not know. Whatever
relationshi])s I have had with the FBI have been very transient.
Senator Hickenlooper. Have you ever criticized the FBI?
Dr. DoDD. Probably I have.
Senator Hickenlooper. Have you ever called them a Gestapo or-
ganization?
Dr. DoDD. No, Senator. I do not like the use of that type of word.
I do not apply that to aiiy of our American institutions. I do not
believe that we have reached fascism.
Senator Hickenlooper. Let us go to the other side of the vocabulary
tliat you may use, and ask — have you ever called it the GPU, or any-
thing of that kind ?
Dr. DoDD. I may have. I don't know. We speak lightly. I would
not attach any significance to it. I have as much respect for the FBI
as I have for the Army, or Navy or any other arm of the Govern-
ment.
Senator Hickenlooper. Well, does that mean that you have a high
respect for it or a low resj)ect for it ?
Dr. DoDD. I have a deep-rot)ted respect for the instrumentalities
that our Government uses to protect us.
Senator Hickenlooper. Now, you spoke of Dr. Lattimore
Dr. DoDD. By the way, Senator, I must say that I am amazed at the
number of FBI agents that you have covering the Communist Party.
My Heavens, you never can tell what you are stumbling over in the
Cbmmunist Party.
Senator Hickenlooper. What is the occasion for your great famili-
arity with that? You have been out of the Communist Party for
some time.
Dr. DoDD. I cannot pick up a newspaper without reading of an FBI
agent who had been an undercover agent in the Communist Party
for at least 10 years.
Senator Hickenlooper. Is that good or bad ?
Dr. DoDD. It is very confusing.
Senator Hickenlooper. I think it is, too. I think it is — to the
Communists.
Dr. DoDD. I think to others, too.
Senator Hickenlooper. I hope it is.
Now, do you consider the Communist Party in this country just an-
other party, such as the Democratic Party or the Kepublican Party ?
Dr. DoDD. I do not. It is not. It is a party which is a so-called
Marxist Party, based upon a certain scientific approach, and certain
literature and so on and so forth. It is a more closely knit, more — what
shall I say — like the nucleus in a cell, you know, it is a much more
highly concentrated group.
Senator Hickenlooper. Yes, and as a concentrated group
Dr. DoDD. Don't underestimate it. It is made up of people who
believe
Senator Hickenlooper. I hope that we don't underestimate it.
Dr. DoDD. Made up of people wlio believe intensely. That is the
diti'erence there. The people in the Democratic and Republican Par-
ties today, kind of take their parties with their morning cereal.
STATE DEPARTMEKT EMPLOYEE LOYALTY INVESTIGATION 655
Senator HiCKEXLOorEK. Well, avouUI you say that ^eneraly speak-
in<r, the Democratic and Republican Parties in this country have be-
lieved in the dignity of man and the constituticm of government
under a capitalistic system, whereas, the Communist Party believes in
the sui)pression of the individual and the destruction of what we
now know as the constitutional i'orm of government^
Dr. DoDD. There have been many struggles, both in the Democratic
Party and the Republican Party, to maintain the dignity of man.
Senator Hick?:xlooper. I think that is true.
Dr. Dodo. And, I think that at certain times, when the parties, you
might sa}', begin to droop a little, the fight and struggle within those
parties insures our liberties and freedom. I think the two-party
system works well.
Senator Hickexlooper. What about the Communist Party as a
third party?
Dr. DoDD. The Conmiunist Party is not a third party; you cannot
consider it like a third party.
Senator Hickexlooper. What is it?
Dr. DoDD. It is a political party, it is a political party, a political
philosophy, and an economic philosophy, all in one, a definite entity.
For instance, the Democratic Party is not committed to the support of
big capitalists, small capitalists, or the farmers, but is connnitted to
do a little for all. The Republican Party at one time was for the
farmer, then it was for the big industrialists, so the small towns were
for the small-business men and they tried to straddle the issue for
all. But the Comnnmist Part}' is a concentrated party which believes
in the right of the worker only. They do not care what happens to
the capitalists. In fact, they want to get rid of them as fast as they
can. So, it is a party committed to a class.
Senator Hickexlooper. And you believed in this philosophy when
you were a member of the party ?
Dr. DoDD. I believed that the working class was the most important