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Army Signal Corps - subversion and espionage. Hearings, Eighty-third Congress, first session pursuant to S. Res. 40 (Volume Pts. 4-6) online

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ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE



HEARING

BEFORE THE

PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON

INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS

UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO

S. Res. 40



PART 4



DECEMBER 14, 1953



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations




UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
4055& WASHINGTON : 1954



Bofton Public Library
Superintendent of Documents

APR 7 - 1954

' COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS

JOSEPH R. McCarthy, Wisconsin, Chairman

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idalio HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington

EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts

JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri

CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina

Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk



Peemanent Subcommittee on Investigations

JOSEPH R. McCarthy, Wisconsin, Chairman

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan
Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
Francis P. Caru, Executive Director
u



CONTENTS



Appendix ^^^^

Index I."". I 173

Testimonj' of — " " 186a

Berke, Sylvia

Mins, Leonard E """_ 167

Savitt, Morris _ _ "" ] 1^6

Socol, Albert. _ " 153



EXHIBITS




Tntrodnned Appears
on pige on pag e

173
180



Aavy, to Leonard E. Mins, December 10, 1945_.- 163 ifi^

8. Statement^Re certificate of aA^•ard to Leonard E. Mins'by ^^

Q ro^ A ^'V*T^ ®*^V^' ^^'''''' I^ecember 10, 1945 ^ 164 ir.

9 (a . Article from the New Masses, January 2, 1934 16? }of

9 (b . Excerpt from the New York Daily Worker Ap'rU'slpq?" Jqq

9 (c . Artie e from the New Masses, June 29, 1937^ ' ^^^^- IqB III

^?a ^^-^'-fV?'""/'^^ New Masses, April 22 1941__. .:::-"- JeS 185

10. Pho ostat of application of Sylvia Berke for employment ^

with the i\ew lork Board of Education, September 8,

1952 ^^Q jg^_^g^



m



AEMY SIGNAL COKPS— SUBYEESION AND ESPIONAGE



MONDAY, DECEMBEB 14, 1953

United States Senate,
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of

THE Committee on Government Operations,

New York, N. Y.

The subcommittee met (pursuant to S. Res. 40, agreed to January
30, 1953) at 10 : 30 a. m. in room 619, United States Courthouse, Foley
Square, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.

Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.

Present also : Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel ; Francis P. Carr, execu-
tive director ; and Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel.

The Chairman. The committee will come to order.

The first witness?

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Albert Socol.

The Chairman. Mr. Socol? Will you raise your right hand and
be sworn. In this matter now in hearing before the committee do
you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Socol. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ALBERT SOCOL, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
SAMUEL A. NEUBURGER, NEW YORK, N. Y.

Mr. Neuberger. Mr. Chairman, my client would prefer not to have
the lights, television cameras and so forth.

The Chairman. Would you turn the lights off the witness. You
gentlemen are informed that during the testimony there will be no
flash pictures taken.

Mr. Cohn. May we have your full name, please ?

Mr. Socol. Albert Socol.

Mr. Cohn. Would you talk up a little.

Mr. Socol. Albert Socol.

Mr. Cohn. Where do you reside ?

Mr. Socol. Long Branch, N. J.

Mr. Cohn. What address?

Mr. Socol. 419 West End Avenue.

Mr. Cohn. 419

Mr. Socol. 419 West End Avenue.

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Socol, were you for a considerable period of time
employed at the Evans Signal Laboratory at Fort Monmouth?



Mr. Socol. Yes, I was.



149



150 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE

Mr. CoHN. And while you were employed at the Evans Signal
Laboratory at Fort Monmouth, were you a member of the Communist
Party?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.

The Chairman. Will you speak louder ? I cannot hear you.

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
amendment.

Mr. CoHN. "V^^iile you were working at the Evans Signal Labora-
tory at Fort Monmouth, were you engaged in espionage against the
United States?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. CoHN. Did you know Aaron Coleman at the Evans Signal

Laboratory ?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.

The Chaieman. When you say on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment, do you mean that your answer, in your opinion, would tend
to incriminate you ?

Mr. SocoL. Yes.

Mr. CoHN. While working for the Signal Corps, did you know
Julius Rosenberg?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. CoHN. Did you engage in espionage activities with Julius
Rosenberg ?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously given.

Mr. CoHN. Since you left the Evans Signal Laboratory, particularly
in the last 2 years, have you been in communication with members of
the Communist Party, working at Evans Signal Laboratory ?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.

The Chairman. I cannot hear you, sir.

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. CoHN. Have you been in communication with members of
the Communist Party working in Evans Signal Laboratory within the
last 6 months ?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.

Tlie Chairman. I will have to insist that you state the grounds
each time so that we know.

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

The Chairman. Are you referring to the fifth amendment of our
Constitution?

Mr. SocoL,. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Have you been part of a conspiracy designed to
destroy that Constitution upon which you are relying today?
Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment
The Chairman. You refuse to answer whether or not you were a
part of a conspiracy that is designed to destroy the Constitution on tho
grounds that if you were to answer that would tend to incriminate
you? Is that correct?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 151

Mr. SocOL. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it might in-
criminate me due to the things going on in this country today.

The Chairman. Do you prefer the Communist system to ours?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

The Chairman. You realize, of course, that if you were over in
Kussia and you were accused of being a conspirator for the United
States you would not have the privilege of the fifth amendment? Do
you realize that ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SocoL. I stand on the same position as previously outlined.

The Chairman. Now, in this Communist conspiracy to destroy the
Constitution, do you feel perhaps they should save the fifth amend-
ment and just destroy the rest of the Constitution ?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may tend to in-
criminate me.

Tlie Chairman. Are you engaged in espionage as of today ?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

The Chairman. Have you been in contact with Communists at the
secret radar laboratories since you left Fort Monmouth?

Mr. SocOL. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.

The Chairman. Do you feel that that answer would tend to in-
criminate you ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SocOL. Yes.

The Chairman. Have you had Communist meetings at your home?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds it might— under the
grounds of the fifth amendment.

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you had Communist meetings
at your home as late as 6 months ago, attended by some of the em-
ployees who have been suspended from Fort Monmouth; isn't that
correct ?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

The Chairman. Do you tell us now that you honestly feel that if
you were to answer that question the answer would tend to incriminate
you?

Mr. SocoL. I do.

The Chairman. You are entitled to refuse.

Mr. CoHN. I have nothing further.

The Chairman. There is one further question : "VVlien did you start
to work at Fort Monmouth ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SocoL. Sometime in 1942.

The Chairman. And you continued working until when?

Mr. SocoL. Sometime in 1947.

The Chairman. What were the circumstances of your leaving?
Were you suspended or did you quit of your own volition ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.

The Chairman. I do not believe you are entitled to refuse to answer
the question. It is a matter of record. I am just asking you about the
record. Does the record show that you were suspended or that you
resigned ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)



152 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE

Mr. SocoL. I feel a discussion on this point would tend to in-
criminate me in view of the discussions now being had.

The Chairman. Have you been in telephonic communication with
a Mr. Hyman ? Harry Hyman ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment. . .

The Chairman. Has Hyman asked you to get m touch with anyone

you knew at Fort Monmouth ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SocoL. On the grounds as previously stated, I refuse to answer
on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

The Chairman. Just so we need not indulge in repetition, to save
time, each time you refuse to answer, am I right in assuming that you
are refusing to answer on the grounds that a truthful answer would
tend to incriminate you? Is that correct ?

Mr. SocoL. I am refusing to answer on the grounds that a truthful
answer might incriminate me.

The Chairman. Then you are entitled to refuse. As a matter of
fact, you do know a Harry Hyman, he is an underground agent for
the Communists, you know he has been in touch witli people at Fort
Monmouth almost to this very day. You have been asked by him to
contact your friends down there, have you not ?

Mr. SocoL. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment. - _ , , ,,

The Chairman. You understand, of course, when 1 ask you wlietner
or not you know that Harry Hyman is an underground agent for the
Communists, whether or not you have been in contact with people at
Fort Monmouth in his behalf, in behalf of his espionage ring, if you
had not been contacting them you would not incriminate yourself by
saying no. It is only in case you have been engaging in espionage
activities with Hyman, contacting people at the secret radar labora-
tories that you could possibly be incriminated. You, of course, under-
stand that,"^ so that when you make that answer, "I refuse to answer
on the grounds of self-incrimination," you are telling the country, in
effect, that you are a traitor, that you are indulging at this time in
treason against your country ; that you are an espionage agent. You
understand that.

One of the reasons we have you here today is not because we expect
to get any cooperation from any Communist espionage agents, but the
evidence against you is so damaging, the evidence that you indulged m
espionage, we feel you should have a chance to stand up, if it is not
true, and say "No, those people who say I am a spy are not telling the
truth. Those people who say I am a Communist are lying." .

You have a chance to do that, you see. And if they are lying, it is
to your interest to say they are. Of course, I may say the evidence
against you is so overwhelming, I can understand why you do refuse.
Keeping this in mind, let me ask you a question : As of today are
you a member in good standing of the Communist conspiracy?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SocoL. As I understand it, the fifth amendment is for the inno-
cent as well as the guilty, and I don't think it is my purpose here t«J
get into debate with this committee, and I refuse to answer on the
grounds of the fifth amendment.



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 153

The Chairman. Well, just in case you misunderstand the purpose
of the fifth amendment, maybe we ought to *>o back into some of these
questions again, then. The fifth amendment in effect, provides that no
one need send himself to jail. It has its inception away back in the
English law. It provides, the original fifth amendment, I believe,
if we go back that far, was a provision under the old English law
that a criminal, if he could get into the church and take hold of the
rail, he could not be taken. That was perhaps the inception of the
fifth amendment. Out of that grew our fifth amendment today. It
provides that a criminal need not convict himself. And an innocent
man does not need the fifth amendment. You understand that. If
you are not a Communist, you would not incriminate yourself by say-
ing no. If you are not a traitor, if you are not a spy for the Com-
munists, you could not incriminate yourself by saying no. I ask you
the simple question : Are you as of this moment a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SocoL. I do not wish to get into any debate with this committee,
and I feel that any question that I may answer of that type may forge
a link in the chain in which this committee is involved, and therefore
I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

The Chairman. I think you are right. It could forge a link in
the chain of evidence against vou. You are entitled to use it.

]Mr. CoHN. No more questions.

The Chairman. Will you consider yourself under continuing sub-
pena. If and when we need you, we will call counsel.

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Savitt.

Mr. BouDiN. Could we have the television off and no pictures taken ?

The Chairman. Yes. The photographers are instructed that the
witness does not want his picture taken, and it will not be taken.
Just a minute, gentlemen. The committee rule is that if a witness
does not want his picture taken, it will not be taken.

Will you stand and raise your right hand ?

Mr. BouDiN. We have an understanding with Mr. Buckley, if you
don't mind.

The Chairman. Certainly. You would rather have that before
you are sworn.

I must insist to the photographers not to take any more pictures
of the witness.

Will you raise your right hand. In this matter now in hearing
before the committee, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Savitt. I do.

TESTIMONY OF MORRIS SAVITT, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
LEONARD B. BOUDIN, NEW YORK

Mr. Cohn. May we have your full name, please ?

Mr. Savitt. Morris Savitt.

Mr. Cohn. S-a-v-i-t-t?

Mr. Savitt. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cohn. "V^Tiere do you reside, Mr. Savitt ?

Mr. Savitt. 8515 66th Avenue, Queens.

40558 — 54— pt. 4 2



154 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Savitt, have you ever worked for the United States
Government?

Mr. SA\^TT. Yes, sir.

Mr. CoHN. When was that?

Mr. Savitt. I worked for the Corps of Engineers from December
1939 to March 1941. I worked in the Brooklyn Navy Yard from
March 1941 to July 1945, and then again from, I guess it was June
1946 to April 1947.

Mr. CoHN. And that marks the end of your service with the Gov-
ernment, is that right ?

Mr. Savitt. Yes. i

Mr. CoHN. And are you now an electrical engineer ?

Mr. SA\aTT. Yes, I am.

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Savitt, have you been employed by various firms
as an electrical engineer since you left the Navy Yard ?

Mr. Savitt. You mean you want to know where I worked since I
left the Navy Yard ?

Mr. CoHN. Yes.

Mr. SA^^TT. I worked for the New York State Department of
Public Works from April 1947 until some time this year, June of
this year, and then I worked in New York City from August until
now, with a private outfit.

Mr. CoHN. I see. For what outfit? li

Mr. Savitt. For Slocum and Fuller.

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Savitt, did you attend City College ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) *

Mr. Savitt. Yes. ;\

Mr. CoHN. During what years ?

Mr. Savitt. 1935 to 1939.

Mr. CoHN. We have had sworn testimony before the committee
that during your attendance at City College you, Julius Eosenberg,
Morton Sobell, Henry Shoiket, Aaron Coleman and Nathan Sussman
were members of a cell of the Young Communist League. Is that
testimony true ?

Mr. Savitt. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. CoHx. I will ask you affirmatively. Were you a member of
such a cell with those people while you were at City College ?

Mr. Savitt. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. CoHN. Were you a Communist while working for the Army
engineers and for the Navy, the navy yard ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Savitt. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. CoHN. Are you a Communist today ?

Mr. Savitt. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.

The Chairman. By the same grounds, you are of course referring
to the self-incrimination provision of the fifth amendment, right?

Mr. Savitt. Yes.

The Chairman. Mr. Savitt, you could be of some help here this
morning, if you wanted to be. 1 may say we have no evidence against
you of espionage. We do have the rather detailed evidence that you
attended Communist meetings with Aaron Coleman, that you know
him, that you know about his activities. Is there anything you would



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 155

care to tell us this morning about what you know about Coleman, his
Communist activities, his alleged espionage activities?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Savitt. I have no knowledge of any espionage, and as far as
the rest of the question, I stand on the fifth amendment to refuse to
answer.

The Chl^-irman. I just wonder why you do not want to help your
country a bit. You seem to be a normal young man. There is no rea-
son why you should not help your country try to dig out espionage.
If you knew Coleman was a Communist, if you knew that he was
associated with Rosenberg, it won't incriminate you to tell us about it.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Savitt. I stand on my previous answer, sir.

The Chairman. If you are not willing to give the committee the
information, would you be willing to give tlie FBI the information
that you have ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Saviit. I stand on my previous answer.

The Chairman. Would you go in and give a grand jury the
information ?

Mr. Savitt. I stand on my previous answer.

The Chairman. Well, if you think it would incriminate you, you
are entitled to refuse. You were born in this country, were you not ?

Mr. Savitt. Yes.

The Chairman. I may say we asked that question because the Im-
migration Department has asked us to ask that question of all
witnesses.

You may step down. You may consider yourself under a continu-
ing subpena. If we want you again — may we have the witness'^
attention ?

Mr. BouDiN. May I have the lights taken off? May we have the
pictures turned off ?

The Chairman. Yes. You are instructed that you are under con-
tinuing subpena. If we want you we will contact your lawyer. Is
that agreeable to counsel ?

Mr. Boudin. May I ask you. Senator, as you know, I am concerned
about the continuing subpena matter. Will this be a continuing sub-
pena in connection with the same investigation that you are now
engaged in ?

The Chairman. With the investigation of communism and
espionage.

Mr. BouDiN. And for that reason, you want us to hold ourselves
m readiness. lYell, we have your instruction, of course. I want to
consider whether or not such a subpena is valid, and whether a wit-
ness is subject to your continuing jurisdiction. Although we have
neard your instruction, we are, of course, reserving our rights to take
any legal action that may be necessary.

The Chairman. Mr. Boudin, may I say that this is largely as a
courtesy to the attorneys of these various witnesses. We can just
serve a subpena on the witness any time and make him appear wher-
ever we want him to. What we have been trying to do is to accommo-
aate counsel. For that reason, Mr. Cohn and Mr. Carr have been
phoning counsel. We try to shift the witnesses around so as not to



156 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE ^

interfere with your court work. For that reason I wish you would
do this, and you need not give me any answer now, but I wish you
would contact Mr. Cohn or Mr. Carr in the next day or two and let
us know whether or not that agreement is acceptable. Otherwise, I
can much more easily just hand a subpena to the marshal, have him
serve it, and have your man come at a specified time and place. .

Mr. BouDiN. I will discuss the matter with Mr. Cohn.

Senator, I will need about 15 minutes to talk to Mr. Mins.

Mr. CoiiN. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Boudin requires a little bit more
time for consultation with his next client before he takes the stand
and has asked for a 15-minute recess to allow him to do that.

The Chaieman. I see no objection to that. Will 15 minutes be
enough, Mr. Boudin?

Mr. Boudin. If not, I will come in at 12 and let you know I need a
few more minutes.

Mr. Cohn. You mean for 12 minutes?

The Chairman. We will adjourn until 11 : 30. That will give you
about 17 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

The Chairman. The committee will come to order.

Your first witness, Mr. Cohn ?

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Mins.

The Chairsian. Mr. Mins?

Mr. Boudin. May we have the lights turned away, please ?

The Chairman. Will you turn the light off the witness ? i-

Mr. Boudin. And that is off counsel for the witness. There is no
objection to them taking pictures of the committee.

The Chairman. Will you turn the lights off the witness ? ^

Will the cameramen hold it ? Did you say you didn't want flash
pictures either? S

Mr. Boudin. That is right. S

The Chairman. There will be no pictures of the witness. |

Mr. Boudin. It can be a matter of record, Mr. Chairman, that 1 1|
never want pictures taken of my clients, whoever they may be, so that
during the time when we are discussing it, pictures should not be ,
taken. . k

The Chairman. Mr. Mins, would you stand and raise your right,

hand?

Mr. Mins. Could I have some water ?

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand ?

Mr. Mins. Before I do, I have a motion relating to jurisdiction
to make.

The Chairman. Raise your right hand. In this matter now m|J
hearing before this committee, do you solemnly swear to tell the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?|,

Mr. Mins. I do. [l^

TESTIMONY OF LEONARD E. MINS, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL'j'
LEONARD B. BOUDIN, NEW YORK |j

i L

Mr. Mins. Senator, I have a motion concerning the jurisdiction to|J
this committee.

Mr. Cohn, You may be seated.

Mr. Mins. I would like to ask for some water.



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 157

The Chairman. You may have some water.

Mr. MiNS. Thank you. I have asked already without getting any,
but apparently you have to ask several times to get it.

The Chairman. Mr. Cohn, will you proceed?

Mr. BouDiN. I think the witness wants to make a statement with,
respect to the jurisdiction of the committee.

The Chairman. He may make it.

Mr. MiNS. I move to vacate as follows :

Please take notice that Leonard E. Mins, herewith moves to vacate-
the subpena previously served upon him upon the following grounds :

1. The subcommittee is not engaged in a legislative investigation for
a bona fide legislative purpose. In subpenaing the movant it is not
exercising a legislative power to which it is constitutionally limited
under article I, section 1, of the Constitution of the United States.
It does not seek any information which can be of assistance to it in
any investigation of the executive branch or in the passage of legis-
lation. The movant is a private citizen of the United States, who
holds no office of public honor or trust and is not employed in any
governmental department, nor is he under salary or grant from any
governmental department.

2. The subcommittee has no power or jurisdiction to inquire into
the movant's (a) political beliefs; (b) personal and private affairs;


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