^^s an absolute sale ? A. I think I said — ^he told me it was con-
^ic>ned on his getting his nominee in control of the society.
Q- I mean apart from that, that the transaction between him
^ ^r. Hyde, and Mr. Hyde's trustees would amount to an ab-
'^^Vxte transfer of the ownership to Mr. Ryan. You understand
^zt that was the situation, and that there was no arrangement
by which it should be carried for Mr. Ryan in whole or in part ?
A. No, but that was suspected by everybody.
Q. Including yourself? A. Well, I think likely that was in
my mind, as well as in everybody else's.
Q. Did you say anything to him on that subject. A. No.
Q. When was the next interview? A. That was on Monday
afternoon.
Q. Yes, and who was present? A. Mr. Cravath and Mr.
Root. I think Mr. Root was not there all the time, but he was
there part of the time.
Q. That was at Mr. Ryan's office? A. At his request.
Q. What took place at that interview? A. I started right in
on my own account without hearing .what they had to say.
Of course, I was incensed at the treatment I had received,
which led me to further doubt the sincerity of Mr. Ryan's pur-
pose, and I opened, I think, with a remark something like this :
"You want my co-operation?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Well,
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I wi'l tell you what I will do. I will take half your stock. I
don': know what it cost and do not care — provided you will
agjee '-' the appointment of two additional trustees who will
be absoliiicly independent." There was no discussion after
that at ail, except he said, "I won't do it, that is not what you
agreed to." I said, **What do you mean I agreed to?" He
said, "You agreed that if you were satisfied that I was acting
from an unselfish motive in the interest of the general situa-
tion and the society, that you would help me, and co-operate
with me." I said, "Yes, I did, and this is my way of satis-
fying myself." Now, that statement is clear in my mind. What
these gentlemen have said I did say as to that, I am bound to
concede, but I do not remember. What I was going to do my-
self, I had clear in my mind, and I had done it as I am in the
habit of doing it. And after that, I think — I know there was
some discussion and I may have said what they say, as to using
my influence in every way. I don't know whether I said poli-
tically or not. I may have done so. But I did feel that unless
Mr. Ryan was acting from a pure motive and not for his own
selfish purposes, that the thing ought to be stopped, and every
effort ought to be made by every respectable citizen to stop it,
and that is what I intended to do. While Mr. Ryan said he
would not do it, after the discussion we had subsequent to his
statement, he said he would take it under consideration and let
me know the next day.
Q. Did he tell you that he desired to have the voting power
of the stock held independently by the trustees who had been
named? A. I do not think we went into that discussion, Mr.
Hughes. I knew nothing more about it than that he had
agreed to appoint these trustees, and what was in the papers.
Q. Did he not outline to you his plan for stripping himself
of any control over the stock? A. I do not remember that he
did at that time.
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Q- You were acquainted with the plan as announced in the
papers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you knew the trustees that had been requested by
''^'^^ t:o act, you had seen their names? A. I had seen their
names. I thought you meant if I knew them personally.
C^. No, I mean you knew who the nominees were? A. Yes.
^3- Under those circumstances why did you want or suggest
^f> anticipation in his purchase? A. In order that there might
oe tA^vo additional trustees who would be independent of him.
C^- Those two trustees would have been in a minority? A.
^^11 3 a good healthy minority is a good thing to have.
C^- Did you object to the trustees that Mr. Ryan had st-
lectierd? A. I did not.
^^- Did you have any reason to question their independence
^^ sincerity? A. I think that any number of trustees who are
31>p><:>inted in the way that Mr. Ryan appointed them must be
"^^^^»*^ or less under the influence of the man who appoints them.
^^- Would not the same A. Particularly as he had 2^-
re^d^ obtained practical control of the society by having his
^^'^^^â– ^^ nominee, a man out of his own organization, put in con-
^^^^ of its affairs as president.
^^- The same remark would apply in the case of the selec-
^^^^^^ of two trustees by yourself? A. I did not say I wanted
^^^ trustees appointed by myself. I said if he would consent
"^^^e election of two trustees who would be absolutely inde-
^^^ - Who was to name these two? A. We had not got that
f flLl**
* If he would have agreed to that, then we would have
^ ^^^ into the question how they were to be selected.
^^* It was that you were to co-operate on those two? A.
^ '^^^''as that we were to agree on the method these two were to
^^ Selected.
Q. Did you have the idea that the acquisition of half the
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stock would be beneficial to you? A. No, sir, in fact I told
him that if in the process of arriving at a selection, that if it was
deemed advisable that the stock should be presented to the so-
ciety without remuneration that I would agree so far as my
part was concerned that it should be so done, and I make no
claim to philanthropy in any way whatsoever; I had just as
much interest in the general situation as Mr. Ryan or any-
body else, and I could not see why, if Mr. Ryan's motives were
pure, why he should not have been willing to have included
one hundred or one thousand people in it. There Is no sacri-
fice to a man — he makes no sacrifice to put up two or three
millions of dollars with the prospect of getting it back again
after he has got control of the society.
Q. And that was your idea at the time? A. I thought there
was a probability of that, yes.
Q. Did you think the situation would be bettered by your
participation in the purchase? A. I did, certainly.
Q. Operating as a check upon him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were not at that time interested in the Equitable in
any way? A. I had been instrumental in trying to straighten
out the tangled affairs of the Equitable, and in protecting it
against the attempt on the part of one faction to obtain con-
trol of it over another, and had been instrumental in bringing
about the Prick report ; and I felt, as I think other trustees who
had resigned from the Equitable felt, that they were somewhat
responsible, and were willing to go a long way toward getting
it finally and properly disposed of. Other than that I had no
interest except that of one who had been inveigled into getting
himself into a false position.
Q. Then it was because of your previous connection with
the Equitable that you desired as far as possible to see its af-
fairs righted ? A. Yes, sir ; and my familiarity with its condi-
tions.
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Q. Did you share in any apprehension that if the stock was
taken out of Mr. Hyde's hands there might be a panic? A.
No, sir, there was no possibility of a panic ; there was nobody,
I do not think, except Mr. Ryan, who had that in view, and I
doubt whether he had.
Q. Did you suggest to Mr. Ryan any way by which he could
further strip himself of control over the stock beyond what he
had done, or beyond his sharing the purchase with you? A.
No, sir, it had not gotten that far.
Q. When the matter of trusteeship first came up did you
oppose it, did you oppose trusteeing the stock? A. Mr. Cra-
vath was the first one that informed me about that. I do not
think I even criticised it.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Ryan that if he did not give you a share
of the purchase that you would oppose the carrying out of his
plans? A. No, sir. Now let me explain. There is a wrong
interpretation put upon whatever conversation took place after
what I have already stated. Whatever I said to Mr. Ryan in
reg:ard to my opposing was not in relation to my having an in-
terest in the stock, but it was in relation to my being satisfied
^hat he was doing what he was — taking this action, from a pure
^otiy^ and not from a selfish one, and it was so understood.
Q. But that would have been met if he divided the purchase
^^^^ you? A. That would have been one step toward it, yes,
SIT.
y* C>id you tell him that you had given so much time to
suitable matters that you could not permit anybody to come
into the situation and control the stock without your consent?
^' I doubt whether I ever said that.
Q- E)id you tell him that you did not propose to have any-
\oiV ^^^^ ^wn that stock without your participation? A. I
X vc ^^ recollection of saying anything of that kind.
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Q. Will you say that you did not say that? A. Well,
now
Q. I mean according to your best recollection? A. To my
best recollection I said nothing of the kind.
Q. But you are not in a position where you would care to
make a positive denial ? A. Well, I had no intention of saying
anything of that kind, so whatever I may have said they can
put an improper interpretation upon.
Q. When you referred to the taking of half of the stock just
what language so far as you can recollect it, did you use ? A.
Well, have not I already stated that?
Q. Well, did you say that if he would give you half of the
stock he would have your co-operation, or did you tell him you
wanted one-half of the stock? A. Now, I will repeat what I
said before. It is very clear on my mind. I told him that — I
started in by saying: "You want my co-operation?" It may
have been a wrong interpretation put upon that. It was a
question to him. And he said, "Yes." That has apparently
been interpreted as meaning that I stated that he must have
my co-operation to succeed. He has already requested me to
co-operate with him. Then I said, "I will tell you what I will
do. I will take half of your purchase, I don't know what it
cost, I do not care, provided you will agree to the appointment
of two additional trustees who shall be absolutely independent.
And in addition that if in the process of arriving at a solution
it is deemed advisable to present that stock to the Equitable,
so far as my interest is concerned, I will agree to it."
Q. You said that specifically at that interview? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The point then, as I understand, is that you do not wish
to have what you said construed as a demand for the stock?
A. It was absolutely no demand for the stock, it was a demand
that he should satisfy me that his first assertion was correct,
that he was acting from an unselfish motive.
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Q. And that he could do by giving you half of the stock?
A. By showing a disposition to have some other control than
his own.
Q. Did you suggest any one control or participation in con-
trol other than his and yours? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you tell him that he would not be able to carry out
his plan against your opposition? A. I do not think I did. I
undoubtedly went into some discussion with him as to what at-
titude I would take if I was not satisfied that his motives were
pure and that I would oppose him in every way.
Q. Well, you became satisfied of that as soon as he denied
your request or suggestion? A. That seemed to me, follow-
ing the fact that he had not kept faith with his statement that
he wanted my co-operation and would act only in conferring
with me, it seemed to me that in denying the participation to
myself or anybody else that he was — ^that his motive was to
center the control of the Equitable in himself or influencing the
control in himself.
Q. You became satisfied of that at that interview after he
had said he did not want anyone interested with him ? A. That
was practically what was on my mind.
Q. And then you told him your influence would be thrown
against him? A. Unless I was satisfied
Q. Well, I mean you were convinced? A. I do not want
this twisted around, Mr. Hughes
Q. Not at all, but I want to know whether you became satis-
fied at that interview? A. I became practically satisfied that
his intentions were not what he stated they were.
Q. Was it after that that you told him your influence would
be thrown against him? A. Yes.
Q. Now, just what did you say about that? A. That I can-
not recollect just what was said. I know what was on my
mind and that I would use every effort I could.
Q. Was it a strenuous interview? A. Not so very, not so
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very. It did not make that impression on my mind, and if it
had been so strenuous and there was a great deal of feeling,
^Ir. Ryan would not have told me he would take it under con-
sideration and let me know the next day.
Q. That was about the last of it? A. Yes, that is about all
there was to it. And then I left. The whole thing did not
last fifteen minutes.
Q. When you said something to the effect that your in-
fluence would be against him, what did you have in mind, what
did you intend to do? A. Well, I have been against some peo-
ple, and I don't know what — I will use any effort I can to de-
feat an unworthy object.
Q. Did you refer in that interview to legislative action? A.
No, sir.
Q. Was anything said about the legislature? A. Not to my
recollection.
Q. Are you in a position to deny positively that or are you
merely giving what you recollect? A. I have no recollection
of saying any such thing.
Q. Was there any discussion about the Equitable's affairs
being in such a condition that there might be some legislative
action? A. Not to my recollection.
Q. Was there anything said by you as to your doing any-
thing to induce legislative action? A. Not to my recollection.
Q. Or any official action? A. Not to my recollection.
Q. As to all those matters where you say not to your recol-
lection, are we to understand that you do not deny positively
that some things of that sort were said? A. I cannot deny
positively, because it was in a conversation, and I do not know
that it would have been very improper if I had. Everybody
knew that there had to be some legislative action in connection
with the Equitable, and whether it was referred to at that in-
terview or not I do not know. I doubt whether it was at any
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interview, but it may have been, and if it had, I would tiot-
, If
it had been referred to at that time I would have no reason to
state that I did not recollect it, or that I did not state it. If
I had the slightest notion that I had, I would be perfectly will-
ing" to acknowledge it.
Q. Have you stated now all that was said at that interview
as far as you recollect it? A. As far as I recollect down to
tb^ time he said he would let me know the next day.
Q. And the next day did he let you know about it? A. In
\\ve afternoon I called him up and told him I was going to my
train and that I could not wait any longer to hear from him ;
had he anything to say. He said he had one more man to see
and that he would let me know later. So I told him I would
wait over another train ; and in about an hour or less he called
^^ up and told me he had seen the other man, as he expressed
»t» and that they had decided that they would not do anything
different from what they had proposed.
Q- After you became convinced that Mr. Ryan would not
meet your suggestion, what did you do in regard to the mat-
^*^^? A. Nothing.
Q- E)id you take any steps to thwart his plans? A. Not
yet.
Q- You mean not down to the present time? A. Not down
the present time.
^- C>id you have any consultation with members of the
Legislature? A. No, sir.
^' In regard to insurance matters? A. No, sir.
^- With any member of the Legislature? A. No, sir.
^' Or with any public officer? A. No, sir.
>i- Did you have any interview with any one in politics rela-
^^g to the matter? A. Not that I recollect — I may have, I
^^e talked with many people about it, and whether they were
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in politics or out of politics I do not know, but it had no re-
lation to politics.
Q. Did you talk with Mr. Odell about the advisability of
legislative investigation? A. No, sir.
Q. At any time? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you talk with him in regard to the advisability of
legislative action of any kind? A. No, sir.
Q. Or of action by the Governor? A. No, sir.
Q. Or of any political action which would in any way aflfect
Mr. Ryan or the Equitable situation? A. No, sir.
Q. At any time? A. No, sir.
Q. So that so far as this investigation is concerned, you did
and said nothing directly or indirectly to bring it about? A.
This one right here?
Q. Yes. A. I did not know anything about it, sir.
Q. Did you in your telephone conversation with Mr. Ryan,
when he announced that he would not change his decision in
the matter, then tell him that you would throw your influence
against him? A. Repeat that question.
Q.' I understand there was a final telephone interview in
which he said he would not change his plans and meet your
suggestion. At that time did you say anything as to what
action you would take? A. No, sir.
Q. You have said all that took place at that time? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. If you mentioned political influence in your conversation
at Mr. Ryan's office, what did you refer to? You say it is pos-
sible it was mentioned. Were you in politics? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have any political influence? A. I think I have.
Q. Did you directly or indirectly convey to him the idea
that it would be exercised against him? A. I do not know that
I did. If I had been in his place, whether I did or not, I would
have taken it for granted that I would use every effort that I
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\
"^^ in my power, whether it was political or otherwise. If
had said it, I would not deny it, and I would not be ashamed
^^'^^ if I had said it.
p- "VTou said a little while ago something about the impro-
P"^^V cf a suggestion. Did you mean to refer to that? You
^^^ **It would have been improper if I had said something."
^V. ^o not remember what your question was in reference to.
^- ^NVell, if you do not recall it we need not go back to it.
VA am perfectly willing to go back and take it up if you have
anything on your mind.
Q. I have not on my mind other than the subject matter at that
time. And you left Mr. Ryan with the deliberate intention of
using whatever influence you had against him, but up to date
you have not exercised it? A. I had the deliberate intention
of using my influence against him providing I saw any indica-
"ons of improper influence in connection with the Equitable
or any of its subsidiary companies.
Q' Have you seen anything of that kind? A. I have not
^^i time to think about it.
Q- And that is the reason why you have not up to date ex-
ercised any influence against him? A. If anything had come
to my attention I should have started in.
Q- Atid nothing has? A. Not yet.
y* You have said that you have political influence. To
^nat <Jij y^y refer, Mr. Harriman? A. I referred to the in-
uerice that any man of prominence may have, who has never
^ked anybody to do an improper thing.
^- Vou mean your influence as a man of position in the com-
uuity? A Yes, sir. I have a great interest in the State of
* ^w York and in the country particularly, and I am somewhat
^suited at times, and I believe what I favored would influerice
^^^^ people,
y • And you refer to whom ? A. No one specially.
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Q. Are you consulted with' regard to matters of legislation?
A. No, sir.
Q. What do you mean by saying you are consulted from
time to time ? A. Well
Q. With regard to public questions? A. I said I live in the
country, and there are many matters that come up in relation
to the management of country affairs as every citizen does who
takes any interest in his neighbors.
Q. Oh, you mean in the district where you live ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How about matters pertaining to the State at large? A.
We are interested there in the State at large just the same as
any other community is.
Q. We are interested here in insurance conditions. Have you
had anything to do at any time with any legislation aflfecting
insurance companies? A. I had to do with the prevention of
bills being introduced in the Legislature last Spring, when an
attempt was made by one faction of the Equitable to get con-
trol of its affairs, by getting an act introduced into the Legisla-
ture which might enable them to do it.
Q. How did you accomplish that? A. In various ways; by
seeing people that were influential in gliding such matters.
Q. Party leaders and others? A. I do not know that you
would call them party leaders, but they were people who were
influential in legislative matters.
Q. Well, it has been openly charged that through your rela-
tions with Mr. Odell you have political influence. What would
you say to that? A. Well, I should think that Mr. Odell had
political influence because of his relations to me.
MR. HUGHES : That is all.
THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, I would like, if you wiU
allow me, I would like to get through with this so I will have
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no possibility of being called again, and if I can encroach on
your time a little I would like to do so, to clear up a few
things.
It has been charged in the papers that there is some' discrep-
ancy between my testimony at the former — ^my former testi-
mony, and the statement of Mr. Ryan as to my so-called at-
tempt to purchase an interest in his stock. I should like to state
that there was nothing at that time, at the time I was being
questioned by Mr. Hughes, that bore on this subject at all to my
mind. And if there was I would like to correct that testimony.
We were talking of a time precedent to the time of the presenta-
tion of the Frick report, and which Mr. Hyde, as I remember it,
said that he had been approached by many parties to purchase
his stock, and it was desired to know if I had been interested in
any of those offers, so I understood it. Is that right, Mr.
Hughes?
Q. Your testimony is as follows, and I am glad you have
called attention to the subject, for I had forgotten to mention
it, and so you may have the exact language I will read it. A.
Mr. Hughes, before you begin on that, I may forget it. You
have spoken of Mr. Odell and my having political influence be-
cause of my alliance or affiliation with him. I would like to
say that all last Spring, during the controversy, the Equitable
controversy between its inside factions, that Governor Odell was
not here, nor was he communicated with about it, so he had no
hand in it whatever.
Q. And during that period were you in consultation with
members of the Legislature? A. Not specially.
Q. Well, in regard to insurance matters ? A. I had the matter
watched at Albany to see what attempts were being made to
use legislation improperly.
Q. With reference to mutualizing the society? A. So that
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one faction could get in there and get control of the company by
obtaining the proxies of the policyholders through the agents,
as they said, like the other big life companies.
Q. And when you referred to the possession of political influ-
ence through relations to you, you meant because of the many
important matters in which you are interested, and for which
you stand ? A. Yes, sir, and in many ways.
Q. Bringing you into a prominent position with regard to a
great many subjects that come before the Legislature ? A. No,
sir, I have no special interest in many matters that come before
the Legislature.
Q. Well, I was referring to matters affecting railroads, banks,
trust companies. A. I have never had any hand in it.
Q. I did not understand just what you meant by political in-
fluence through relation to you. A. Any prominent citizen has
some political influence, and if anybody in politics can get the
friendship and backing of people who have no political end to
serve, why it gives them more or less standing. Now, Governor