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A few sheep which Nehemia Mosesh has under the moun-
tains are doing very well, and looking; very well. He has
also grown wheat ; and I believe the whole country is well
adapted for immediate occupation.

31. This brings you to Natal? — Yes.

32. And if this country were settled you think there would
be an end to Kafir wars on this side ? — As long as Faku
remains a good ally to us there can be no fear whatever.
Faku's, of course, is a strong tribe; and his desire now is that
we should protect him. He does not wish to give us any of
bis country merely for our benefit ; his object is to secure
protection for himself and tribe. He says he fears the en-
croachments which are likely to be made upon his country,
and he would like to have a government there that he could
depend upon. I put it to Mr, Jenkins whether that was the
reason, and he said it was, though I was surprised that such an
offer should have been voluntarily made by him. I see no
difficulty myself in occupying this country, though of course
it cannot be done all at once.

33. What would you propose as being the best thine


this Parliament could recommend, or the Government could do Sir w. Carrk.

with this country? — My idea certainly was annexationof one juiy"^i86i,

position in the jfirst instance, with an expression of opinion

from Parliament that as opportunity offered annexation might

go on, with the consent of the chiefs, until you get up to the

land bordering on Natal. I do not know anything that I

could advise better than that. If annexation cannot be carried

out, then a strong expression of approval of what has been

done, and should be done, to induce the government to move

fijrvvard with occupation I think is the most advisable. But

my idea is that annexation is the correct thing.

34. You mean annexation to this colony ? — Certainly ; I do
not wish to annex it to any other, for it is a valuable tract of
country, and must become more so every year you occupy it.
I am aware that Natal claims a portion, but it is not much.

35. Are there any mission stations in the country beyond
the Bashee ? — Yes ; there are several within Faku's own
country, even within that which he wishes to keep for him-
self. There is one at Parmerton, another at Buntingville, and
another at Shrewsbury ; and there is one which Faku does
not want to keep in his country, a very nice station, under a
catechist, Mr. Hulley, the largest of all the stations, which he
would cut out of the portion of country that he wishes to
reserve, I believe because the people are very troublesome ;
and they themselves are anxious also that we should have
them. I saw the chief.

36. Have the natives about these stations made any pro-
gress in civilization ; do they wear clothing or anything of
that kind ? — Yes, certainly ; to some extent. The missionaries
are the pioneers of civilization, no doubt, but their influence
as yet has been very limited. The missionary station is re-
spected as far as this, that it is a refuge for all Kafirs that
have committed themselves in any way in the tribe outside
the station. The Kafir law is, that for many political
offences the culprit and sometimes his family should be put
to death. Now instead of that, the missionary stations are
allowed to be cities of refuge, as it were ; and consequently
the chief says, "really I cannot help it, my councillors and
doctors say that these people have been plotting against the
state and must be put to death," so he sometimes sends them
a private message that they had better visit the mission
station, and the fellows never wait a moment ; they visit it
without waiting to say good bye to any one ; they go at once



Sir TT. Currie. and clo iiot leave it again. At the stations themselves civi-
T , 'Z^^or^ hzed habits are insisted on, both men and women dress in

July 20, 1801. II- 11 c^ 1 1 ij

Em'opean clothmg, especially on bundays; but surrounded
as they are by barbarism, it may be said but little progress
has been made, considering the time the missionaries have
been working amongst them.

37. You have spoken of ports on this side of the Bashee. Are
there any other ports between the Bashee and Natal ? — There
is one at the mouth of the Umzimvoobo. There may be
others which 1 did not hear of, but I went to the mouth of
the Umzimvoobo and there I saw several trading stations
established, with vessels constantly arriving. There is a
schooner which frequently comes up the river, the Ann
Shaw, a regular trader. She came up ten miles ; but it is
not always that they can enter the mouth, for there is a bar,
as at all our rivers, and vessels have to wait sometimes for
days. Then there is another place were small vessels also
come in, more to the Eastward, and land cargoes between
that and the Umzimkulu ; that is said to be better even than
the othei . but I did not go there.

38. Then you are strongly in favour of occupying this
country with Europeans at once ? — I only wish it had been
done two or three years ago, and the sooner it is done now
the better.

39. Jf no action takes place speedily what evil consequences
do you anticipate will follow ? — You must either send a large
force to hold it as it is and keep it clear, or there will be
much danger from the accumulation of Kreli's tribe, which is
fast gathering back. He will not be satisfied if he only sees
a handful of men there, but he will gradually come back till
he gets to the boundary line of British Kaffraria and Queen's
Town. When I left Kreli first of all he had not 500 men
with him, and now he has at least 3,000. I saw 2,000
myself at one meeting while 1 was with him, and they are
coming into him from every quarter. There was not a single
road I travelled in wliich I did not meet dozens of Galeika
Kafirs wandering back, both from the West and the East,
from our own country, and from Faku's people, and from
Moshesh's, each driving a beast or a few goats. Kreli will
naturally collect them all, and then he will fall back to his
old position, the present boundary line on the Kei. This
will bring him into conjunction with Sandillaand Unta, which
would unsettle them immediately. It would also bring him


in connection with the Queen's Town line by the Indwe, the Sir jv. Cume.
very place where I had to 2;o before I could attack him, and juiyloTisei.
fight and catch Vandana, who is now on Robben Island, who
was then plundering to such an extent that the Queen's
Town country could .not stand it. Kreli was then in con-
junction with Vandana and was receiving half the stolen pro-
perty at that very time ; so that in a short time we will have
to fight him again unless the Transkein country be occupied
in the way I have already stated.

40. Mr. de Wet.] I think I understood you to say that
there is already a Biitish Magistrate there ? — 'Yes ; with the
natives, but having nothing of course to do with my men,
who have certain duties of their own to attend to.

41. And the salary of that magistrate is in part paid by a
hut-tax ? — 1 think it is. There is a magistrate, Mr. Shepstone,
and an assistant, Mr. Fynn.

42. At present there is perfect tranquillity then;, is there
not? — Yes; my letters of last week say there is nothing fur-
ther to report, that all is quiet : but then they are bordering
as it were, on a precipice.

43. Mr. Wicht.] I believe you stated that the country
from which Kreli had been expelled had been occupied by
him for a long while ? — Yes; and by his father before him.

44. You also say he was a receiver of stolen property ;
but was that clearly traced to him ? — I could have traced
instances which the Governor never heard of. He was in
league with Vandanna, whom I made a prisoner ; and it was
clearly proved, I think, at Vandanna's trial, that Kreli got
half of the booty or whatever he chose to send for. There
was only a little stream separating them, not the breadth of
the committee-room ; and as it was then starving time the
cattle were distributed in that way, so that independent of
the distinct cause for which Kreli was subsequently turned
out of his country, he was at that time also receiving stolen
property. I went first against Vandanna, and then I ascer-
tained the fact that Kreli was also imphcated. They were
then stealing really for life, having already destroyed all their
own cattle and corn.

45. Was any application made to Kreli for reparation ? —
He had nothing to give, for they had already eaten the cattle

46. And that you consider a justifiable ground of expul-
sion ? — He was not expelled on that ground. We heard from


Sir w. Currie. Other souFces that he was plotting mischief against the colony
July ioTisGi. after we had removed Vandanna ; and that was the reason
he was sent over the border.

47. Had Kreli, then, no cause of complaint, no grievances
of his own ? — I never heard of any : but I do kno.w this, that
in all the wars, ever since I myself was old enough to take
part in them, even from the war of 1835 down to the time of
Kreli's expulsion, his country has always been held in reserve
to back up all those Kafir wars, and all the stolen property
has been carried there time after time.

48. Then the Executive were fully warranted by the law
of nations in expelling him ? — Yes ; and long before too.
They had not the power, or he deserved to have been
even expelled both in 1846 and 1850.

49. He is now hemmed up into a small portion of country,
is he not ? — Yes.

50. Has he cattle ? — He had not many when I first visited
him ; but since then he has taken 2000 from one of his
neighbours, so that he is pretty well off.

51. Is his present country sufficiently large for cattle? —
Yes ; but not for an accumulating population. There is,
however, an unoccupied tract of country behind him, and
bordering upon his present position.

52. I understood you to say that he has a very natural
hankering to get back to his old country ?— Yes, certainly.

53. Will he not then be always proving troublesome to
the settlers ? — I dare say he will try to get back if he can,
but he will do so under any circumstances, and if permitted
will very soon plot mischief again,

54. Do you think that the Europeans, who, according to the
map, would be situated between different tribes, will be
sufficiently strong to hold their ground 1 — I hope so.

55. What military force is there at present in British
Kaffraria ? — I think about a regiment and a half.

56. Do you not recollect there having been 10 or 12,000
men on the Frontier three or four years ago ? — There has
been a large force there in times of turbulence.

57. And is it not probable that a larger force may be
required again ? — Certainly ; if you do not occui)y this
country at once, and so keep the natives down in small
numbers. If you allow them to accumulate up there for 10
years or so, great mischief will be the consequence.

58. But will not the natives crush the settlers the same as


in the case of the mihtary settlers of Johannesberg ? — The Sir if. Currie.
settlers it is now proposed to settle in the country beyond juiyioTisei.
the Kei, will not be the same class of men at all as the
Johannesberg settlers, who were old military pensioners, men
that had neyer been settlers before. These men are now
prepared to go to the front and have been living on the
border in all probability, most of their lives. They know
the danger they are going to incur, and will always, there-
fore, sleep with one eye open. My idea is that they will be
sufficiently protected, under ordinary circumstances, by
having a mounted force in the country. And then when
we are going to have a war, which you can always trace is
approaching before it actually comes on, send in some
infantry just to take up two or three positions. The settlers
will then naturally send their women, children, and flocks
to these posts of security, and would then turn out as
mounted burghers ; and if, with the assistance of the police,
they could not check the natives, they really would deserve
to have their throats cut, and another lot take their places.

59. How would they be supplied with provisions ? — They
would come by sea.

60. But in being carried to the different inland stations,
would the supplies not be cut off as Sir Harry Smith's were,
for instance in the last war? — Our force was alongside^of Sir
Harry Smith's, close alongside ; and yet our supplies were
never cut off. We carried them right on to Cradock and
everywhere else where we wanted them : and on the same
principle these settlers' supplies could not be cut off either, if
they were self-dependent to a great extent as the Queen's
Town farmers are.

61. These Queen's Town settlers would not be able to
render assistance to the neighbouring country, in case of
danger, would they ? — They might, if they had no cause to
fear the Tambookies and Gaikas just then : but, of course, if
there were danger near at hand, they would not like to have
to move away from the defence of their own homes. I would
like to see a sufficient number located there to be able to
protect themselves without expecting aid from others. If
they could afford to give help to others besides, well and
good : but, I would not depend on their doing so.

62. Would you not by settling this country in the way
proposed denude the colony itself of its bone and sinew, as it
were, and induce the Kafirs to make a rush into the country?


Sir w. Currie. — I do Hot think there would be a likelihood of that. The
July ^1861. Proposed plan of occupation is in my opinion the very best
plan in the world for preserving quiet, I do not mean to
say it would ever prevent the difficulty entirely. You cannot
do that in civilized countries : but this is the plan to prevent
wars, — not stealing merely, but wars : and ultimately, to
civihze the people. I see no other plan which is likely to
act so l)eneficiariy upon the natives as this of giving tracts of
country to be occupied by Europeans, whose settlement
there, and intercourse with the natives, must eventually
exercise a great and good effect upon the whole nation.

63. In former wars, as we learnt from the public press,
parties were not able to graze their cattle outside the forts,
unless within range of the guns. Will that not happen
again ? — I believe what you mention has been the case with
regard to the military forces. They had to graze their cattle
within range of their guns : but, the remark is not applicable
to the burgher forces. We never had any cannon to protect
us in that way ; but still we kept our horses and cattle to a
great extent. Most of our losses were caused by keeping
them rather close up, and too confined.

64. Do you think your police would be strong enough to
cut their way through large bodies of Kafirs, or would they
not be cut off" in the same way as Baillie's men during the
war ? — I was there when that melancholy affair happened.
There were forty of them, I think, in all : and would never
have been killed as they were, if they had had any ammuni-
tion left ; but there they were without a round. Not a man
had yet been killed or touched; but what could men do with-
out ammunition and thousands of natives round them. That
was how it happened. They were a Hottentot patrol, not
Europeans. The officer Mr. Baillie being the only European.

65. Chairman.^ Troops of the line would have formed
square, would they not ? — They would not have been left
without ammunition : but such patrols are very often sent out
for days together with only twenty or thirty rounds ; natives
are very reckless of the expenditure of ammunition ni most

QQ. Mr. Wicht.'] Are the Kafirs beyond the Kei armed
with guns, or only with assegais ? — Those I saw with Kreli
were about 2,000 in number ; but 3 or 400 only had guns.
The rest all had assegais. They had guns when I first went
against them, for then they were nearly all well-armed : but


since then they have sold their guns amongst Faku's people sir n\ Cume.
to get provisions. juiy loTisei,

67. But would they not be able to get guns again ? — They
will get them in time from Natal. That is where they draw
them from principally.

68. Not from our side ? — There are a few instances in
which they have obtained them from our side also. 1 have
traced some, but they form a very small proportion ; so small
as not to affect us much. The great influx is from the Natal

69. Is there any possibility of guns reaching them from
Walwich Bay ? — Not at all. Moshesh will supply them with
powder, probably, when he is able to make better than he
does now : but they get a good deal of that also from Natal.

70. But suppose the natives all join together in the East,
will you not require a larger body of men than the present
handful, to protect the colony ? — From what I have seen of
the natives I do not think they will combine if you treat them
properly. I think there will always be feuds amongst them
unless we get in between them, and then these feuds will
disappear ; the natives will gradually amalgamate with the
Europeans, and so become civilized.

71. What sort of government would you recommend
should be established — a military form ? — First of all I
would have the government carried on in the manner
pointed out in the " memorandum," in much the same way
as in British Kaffraria.

72. So that if you attach this unoccupied country to the
colony, you would require a special law exempting the
inhabitants from the general operation of the laws of the
colony ? — That would find its own level. When there is
sufficient inteUigence there they will ask for a judge, but I
do not think that the men who first settle in a country
need a Judge. When there are 800 men, Europeans, they
will soon enough ask for law and order there.

73. What is the nature of the country, is it perfectly
level, or are there many ravines, requiring many bridges? —
The upper part of the country is level ; but that nearer
British Kaffraria is very rugged.

74. And the Kafirs will be able to conceal themselves in
these ravines ? — That they will, and we have had to hunt
them out often enough already. There are some queer
places there.


Sir w. Currie. 75. Will the Kafips not then prove troublesome ? — They

July ioTisei. ^^ve been so, ever since I was born. Wherever the Kafirs

are they are troublesome natives, but they would not be so

troublesome if this proposed plan of occupation were carried


76. Will not the parties who settle there perhaps expect
protection from the colony ; will they not call out that they
are not sufficiently protected, and require that more forces
should be sent down ? — It is my opinion that if that country
had been occupied twenty years ago, as it may be now, the
Kafir tribes nearer the colony would not have made war,
because they will not do so unless they have a back-ground
to fall upon. If no Europeans are settled about here, then
these tribes will make war again if they have Faku in the
back-ground to send supplies ; but if Faku prove a good
ally they will not make war. I may observe that in recom-
mending this annexation, so far from suiting my own conve-
mence, I am giving myself an infinity of trouble. If I
studied my own comfort I would say withdraw from beyond
the boundary, and then I would be able to enjoy myself for
two or three years, and retire and get out of all trouble.

77. Could not the boundary be withdrawn then? — It
would place you in a worse position than you are in now,
by bringing all these people back to where they proved
themselves such troublesome neighbours before.

78. Are not the young men of Kafirland smarting under
their wrongs and thinking of avenging themselves and
driving the white man into the sea?— I do not think they are
smarting under their wrongs ; but all young men get excited
sometimes, and think they have wrongs. It is the case with
all the tribes up the country. For instance, the old men of
Kreli's tribe were very anxious to accept what the Governor
oflfered him, but it was the youngsters who said no. It is
not because they are smarting under their wrongs, but
because they have seen no war and do not know what it
entails upon them. That is my idea of the young people of

79. But are not the Kafirs who are now scattered over the
the colony finding their way back to their own country, and
will they not then prove troublesome ? — They will if you do
not anticipate them in time ; if you do not cut them off by
the adoption of this system, which is the only plan by which
you can guard against danger from them. I go with Sir


George Grey upon the principel of separating the natives as sir w. Currie.
much as possible ; and that is why I have worked so hard of juiy ioTisei.
late, with a view of ultimately doing away with all war in
that country.

* 80. Will not the departure of Sir George Grey be an
obstacle in the way ?- — Undoubtedly it will, and a very great
one ; but we must reason with ourselves, and say will it be
fair, because he is taken from us, to suppose that the next
Governor will not be able to carry out the system he has so
wisely introduced ; no, let us hope better things ; at all events
let us strengthen ourselves in proportion to the difficulty we
have to encounter. Never say die.

81. Mr. de WetJ] You have said that there is a Magis-
trate in the Trans-Keian country ; now is that not an act of
sovereignty exercised by those by vvhom he was appointed ?
— He was placed there at the time we took possession, when
these natives came from British Kaffraria, under Major
Gawler, as police. Captain Colley went with hmi at the
time for the purpose of surveying ; and as it was then found
necessary to leave a band of people on the Bashee, to keep
the line and assist the European police. Captain Colley was
made a magistrate.

82. By whom ? — By Sir George Grey. They were quite
independent of my force. Then when Captain CoUey's
regiment went away he was removed, and Mr. Shepstone,
formerly of Queen's Town, was appointed magistrate there
and still continues so.

83. But is that not virtually an act of occupation ? — It is a
sort of military occupation. He was placed there to carry on
a system of native taxation.

84. That is another act of sovereignty, is it not? — It is a
kind of occupation, but only a partial one ; not the European
occupation we wish to see carried out.

85. I see that throughout the Trans-Keian papers Kreli is
called the " Paramount Chief." What is the meaning of that?
— He is the great chief of the Amakosa tribe. He represents
all the Gaikas and Slambies, and his own tribe, the Galekas.

86. Is Faku an independent chief ?— He is,

87. And the Tambookies ? — They are also an independent
nation, having nothing to do with Faku. Kreli is the
Paramount Chief of the tribes I have mentioned, and is
naturally therefore looked upon as the great protector and
defender of the frontier Kafirs.

C 3.— 'Gl. ANNEXATION— 3. ^


Sir w. Cume. 88. His tribe is now reduced to 3,000, I see ? — I put
July "aoTisei. them down at that.

89. What lias become of the other portion ? — They have
been scattered to the four winds of heaven, through the
famine brought about by their destruction of their own cattle.
They came into the colony in thousands, others went over to
the Basutas, and in other directions ; and I met them
now returning when I was last there. I daresay by this time
instead of 3,000 Kreli has 5,000 around him. So strong is
the feeling of the Kafirs towards their chief that Mr. Jenkins
and Mr. White, the two missionaries, stated that twice the
news came out to the stations that the Galekas were wanted
at home ; they were both us it afterwards appeared false
reports, yet although it was the sowing season, the whole of
them left their crops growing and away they went to the
chief, who was very angry with them for coming and sent
them back. That happened a second time, and it only show,
that they will sacrifice everything when the call comest
wherever they are.

90. To what do you attribute that influence the chief
possesses over his people after he has lost all the attributes of

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