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a sovereign ? — I cannot explain it ; it is hereditary among
the Kafir tribes. He is considered the great chief, and
treated with the same respect even although he had nothing
to eat and has to buy his bread.

91. You do not think it is personal affection? — No;
because if they look cross he would cut their heads off. He
would just order them aside, and you would never see them
again. His influence has a most magical effect, but it is
just the same with other tribes of natives.

92. What is Kreli's mode of life ?> — His mode of hfe
now, being " in the bush," has altered from what it was.
But in regard to the other tribes living round there, for
every chief that takes ill there must be a sacrifice of people ;
some one has bewitched him, and the witch doctor sets to
work, and some rich person is pounced upon and " eaten
up," that is, all that he is worth is taken away. That
practice is carried on still ; and he possibly loses iiis life also
unless he escapes to the " school." Then for every chief or
great man that dies there is a positive sacrifice of life. A
whole kraal, or two kraals are destroyed, to go with him.
That also is still carried on ; and they submit to it with the
greatest calmness, unless the chief just before his death gives



SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANNEXATION. 19

out what they call " a word," and which is now rather sir fv. Cunie.
coming into practice, stating that no one is the cause of his juiy'io^isei.
death, but that he is dying from natural causes, and that no
one is to suffer for it.

93. What means of subsistence have the chiefs ? — They
principally subsist on cattle. Faku is exceedingly well off,
having abandance of cattle. Five head of cattle is paid to
him for every death in his tribe. He has never had the lung
sickness in the country, having kept it out by putting to
death both the diseased cattle brought in and the people
bringing them in. Kreli's people live upon grain which
they raise themselves.

94. So that agriculture is carried on to a considerable
extent ? — It is carried on very greatly among the people
by the women, who work with spades.

95. In the plenitude of his power what was the number ^
of fighting men Kreli could muster? — Informer days I think

he could turn out 10,000. When I first went there he had
a very large tribe.

96. Suppose that he now has the same number of fighting
men again, and that in twenty-five years his tribe doubles,
which is the greatest increase allowed in population, and
then amounted to 20,000 fighting men ; do you not think
that the colony would still be fully a match for him, even if
he were left alone and increased so for twenty-five years ? —
If Kreli would agree to wait twenty-tive years without fighting
anybody, but would sit down and cultivate his land and
fatten himself and people, I also would agree to it; but he
would not be so many hours if he had the necessary numbers
of men and the opportunity. The young men won't remain
quiet; having no occupation they are so restless. When I
was there he had 3,000, but he is collecting his forces very
fast, and if you were to go now I am sure you would find
more than 4,000 ; for since I came away several small tribes
have joined him.

97. Do you not think that the government could easily
avail itself, in the event of an emergency, of the assistance of
the other tribes surrounding Kreli, so as to keep him in
check? — There is no doubt in the world of it; but it is not a
good system to practise. When I was there I would not
have required more than ten men to have fought the whole
lot of them. Every tribe was against the other, and all you
had to do was to back one up against the other, and then to



20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir IF. Currie. go to another tribe and back it up in the same way, until
July ^1861. they were all destroyed. I could do that to-morrow; but it is

not a good system, and not one that a christian government

should countenance.

98. I do not speak of extermination, but were Kreli to
commence hostilities against the colony you think it possible,
then, that government might avail itself of the assistance of
the neighbouring tribes? — I am sure it could. But you
should not use one tribe to check another w^ith, if it can be
avoided; for when the natives begin to fight they dont know
when to stop. You cannot use them in this way as disciplined
troops ; they are a most excitable people.

99. Umditchwy I suppose would not begin a war with the
colony ? — There is no likelihood of that. I believe, myself,
that I was partly the cause of his fighting the Tambookies.
He looked upon the Tambookies as our allies; but one day he
said to me "Joey says he is a government man ; is that true.''"
— I told him I thought not; as he had no magistrate; and he
said that then he would know what to do. But it seemed
that while they thought he was a government man they did
not like to fight him. So that shows the influence the
British Government has among them.

100. 1 understood you to say you visited the mission
stations? — I went to all of them.

iOi. Could you discover any salutary influence they had
exercised upon the morals of the people? — The stations
themselves are very good schools, well conducted, and built
like an English village. The mission house and chapel are
built of the same materials, though not so good as the houses
in Cape Town, and so are all the houses belonging to the
school. I dare say there are some 6 or 800 people at these
schools, and so far they must exercise a good effect on the
surrounding people, but not to a very large extent.

102. But could you discover any influence on their
morals ? — They all come dressed in European clothing to
church, and they till the ground on the station with ploughs,
the same as the Europeans; and I think upon the whole the
schools decidedly a very great advancement. But the
schools are not the mass of the people, they are chiefly com-
posed of refugees, driven in as I have already stated.

103. Do you not think that if schools and mission stations
were multiplied civilization may be brought about? — The
mii>sion-aries themselves tl-ink the same as I do. They



SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANNEXATION. 21

would be very glad indeed to find the country occupied sir tf. Currie.

by this government in the way we have been endeavouring —^^^^

to bring about. They say that they have been labouring so

many years; that tliey have not done the good they had hoped

to have done, for the people all round the stations are still in

a state of the utmost barbarism, and the Chiefs carry on their

old practices just the same. Within the circumference of

the station itself, of course, it is a different thing. One good

eifect, however, that the presence of missionaries seems to

have had is, that it has led the Chiefs to give " the word" not

to have people sacrificed at their death ; which is gradually

coming more and more into use — no member of a school,

ever engages in war, they are never called upon by the chief

ot the tribe to do so.

104. Do you not think that if Europeans were to occupy
the territory it would ultimately encroach considerably upon
the means of subsistence of the native inhabitants? — T do not
think so. I think the arts of civilization would support ten
times the population they have in that country at the present
time.

105. Ploughs have already been introduced, have they
not? — Only at the mission stations; except in Moshesh's
country, where they are in general use.

106. Mv. de Wet.] Does not the treaty which you men-
tioned had been entered into with Faku, recognize him as an
independent chief? — Yes, certainly.

107. Does not the occupation, then, of a portion of his
territory infringe upon that treaty ? — It vfould, if the chief
and his councillors had not expressed their desire that the
occupation should take place. He is offering it to us for the
purpose of protection. They come to us and offer us a
country which they cannot regulate themselves ; this cannot
be infringing in any way.

108. To what cause do you attribute the fact that the
country which you describe as so valuable has never been
occupied by the natives? — I can only account for it in this
way, that the natives have been swept off or exterminated
time after time. We know that Dingaan, the great Zulu
chief, and his tribe swept right across that country and came
down as far as the Matuana mountains, clearing everything
before h'uu, until he was turned back by the troops and
volunteers in 1827 and 1828, and driven back to the Natal
country. After that Faku himself was driven back, while



22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir w. Currie. Mr. Jenkins was there, I think, by the Zulus again to the
July ioTiSGi. Umzimvoobo, and immense numbers destroyed. Gradually
he got back to his present country ; so that in that way the
greater part of the country has never been occupied. They
have carried on a war of extermination ; destroying every-
thing before them.

109. Then, if I understand you rightly, there is a super-
abundance of waste crown land there ? — There is indeed, I
have lived all my hfe on the Frontier, but I was really sur-
prised at the amount of unoccupied land I came across up
there; I never could have beheved it. For days and days I
rode as hard as I could gallop without seeing the sign of a man.

110. Is the country grassy ? — Yes ; sheep and cattle could
live on it anywhere. 1 rode hundreds of miles, I may say,
without seeing a living soul.

111. Do I understand you right, that ammunition is
supplied to these natives from Natal? — Yes; it is smuggled in.

112. Is there no means of stopping it then ? — They could,
if they had a proper police. I have written to the Natal
authorities telling them what is going on, and they must
know it themselves ; but they have only got a native police,
which is easily bribed, and that is the way the supplies get
through. I know this, because I have ascertained it to be a
fact.

113. M.V. de Rouhaix.'] Kreli was expelled in 1858, and
I understand that you are not able to say how tranquillity
has been since preserved ; that it is a matter of surprise to
you ? — It is a matter of surprise to me that we should have
kept peace with so small a force in the country. I did not
expect it.

114. And the cause of alarm is entirely founded upon the
gradual increase of numbers and the rapidity with which
these people breed? — Upon the rapidity of collecting the
means of living, and the rapidity with which they get back
from other tribes after having been scattered, but they cer-
tainly do not breed faster than Europeans.

115. Then you recommend the committee that one of two
courses should be adopted ; that we should either annex or
express an opinion of approval? — I should say annex the
country. If you cannot do that, then give such an expression
as will induce the Governor to go on ; but I believe annex-
ation would be the best way of all ; the quickest way, and
the most humane way.



SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANNEXATION, 23

116. And you do not think it desirable to annex that Sir ^. (7«rriV.
country to British Kaffraria ? — I do not think so at all. If juiy 2071861.
that country is not annexed to the colony it will be occupied
in a summary way by somebody. You may depend upon it
that what I say is the case ; that we shall be forced to occupy
it sooner or later ; that occupation will take place, but that it
will be done reo;ardless of right or order meanwhile in a very
rough way. Therefore, if we do not take the initiative and
smooth the way for it, it will be done without authority ;
and that is not the way in which a country ought to be
occupied.

] 17. From your experience, you think the policy of the
Governor the best ? — I think so, and that is the reason I have
worked so hard. I felt sure that it was a sound policy to
adopt, and I have regretted that the country has not been
occupied for the last three years, and at a time when it could
have been done with much greater ease than at the present
moment, and every moment's delay makes it more difficult.

1 1 8. You think it necessary, then, that action should be
taken ? — At once, without delay.

119. Mr. Tucker.'] When you say that action should be
taken, you mean that the country should be occupied on the
same principle, to a great extent, as the district of Queen's
Town ? — Exactly upon the same principle of military^ tenure
by Europeans, with this simple difference only, as I have
stated, that instead of making free grants I would put the
land up to auction, so as to prevent disappointment in the
selection of applicants.

120. In that case it would be a self-supporting country,
would it not? — I believe it would be so from the beginning,
unless some disaster overtakes us which I do not anticipate
just now ; at all events, the country is capable of being a
self-supporting country.

121. Kreli is under the impression, is he not, that he will
not be allowed to return to his country ? — I told him so
distinctly, and he has since also been told it by the Governor,
to whom he subsequently applied.

122. If we continue to leave the country unoccupied,
perhaps that may raise false hopes, may it not, in the
mind of Kreh, that he will eventually regain it? — It will
raise false hopes in his mind, as well as in the minds of the
adjoining Tambookies, who also asked me for a portion of this
country.



24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir w. Currie. 123. And Until the country is occupied in the way pro-
juiyloTisei. posed, you think these native tribes will have no chance of
settling- down ? — Not quietly. I think we ought to take such
measures as will entirely satisfy these people that they should
have no further hopes of getting back their country except
on the conditions mentioned ; and then their false hopes
must disappear altogether. I do not wonder at Kreli's holding
on so long when he finds that for three and a half years his
country has been left only for wild beasts and policemen.

124. Do you think that the fact of the removal of Sir
George Grey should prevent the carrying out of this policy ?
— No, I do not. I think that only urges us to be quicker
about it. I do think, however, that his withdrawal will have
considerable effect upon the natives, for it had when he
went but to England. I felt it then, and believe we shall
suffer from his removal now.

125. Chairman.] Are the applicants willing to take occu-
pation at once ? — Yes ; the only delay will be in the surveys.
That is the most difficult part of the business. If I had my
way I would take my horse and ride over the country and
very soon give it all out. But if the farms are to be sold,
we must take the ordinary civilized way of settling the
country ; and there, therefore, will be preliminary difficulties
and delay, which I am very sorry for.

126. Could not the divisions be made by a military man?
— Yes, any surveyor could make the divisions, there has
already been made a general survey by Captain Colley, but
not a division into farms.

1 27. Have these proposed settlers capital at their command ?
— They would all have some capital ; but it is not well for a
man, if he has capital, to take it all with him at first. At
Queen's Town and British Kaffraria, for instance, the grantees
left the bulk of their capital behind for a year or two, to see
how they got on with a little, feeling that it was not well to
take all into the lion's mouth at once, till they were settled
and saw how their plans were working.

128. Mr. Tucker.] You would recommend that an equal
number of applications should be called for in the east and
west ? — I have a different plan. I would advertise that there
are a thousand farms for sale. I would sell half in the east and
half in the west on the condition that they must be occupied
sharp, and on military service. Then all that failed to be
sold in the one I would sell in the other, — not carins; whether



SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANNEXATION. 25

they fetched £1 or £10, as long as the parties made them- Sir w. Currk.
selves acquainted with the conditions. juiy "2071861.

129. What I mean is, that you would not confine the sale
to either province, but would throw it open to both ? — Yes,
to the world, for that matter. I would not do it for the
money's sake, but to prevent the difficulty I see in 2,000
people asking for farms, and only 500 getting them, in which
case they will always think that some favour has been shown.
That is my idea. Otherwise, I would not care a straw,
although money is always useful, particularly in a new colony.

130. But would not the grant of these farms on a perpetual
quitrent throw them more open to poor men becoming the
owners ? — I am afraid that that would be open to objection,
and that selling is the more effectual way, for I know there
has been grumbling on former occasions. The names of a
lot of unfortunate fellows were left in the bag, and to this
day I think they believe they were left there purposely.

131. If this unoccupied country were annexed to British
Kaffraria, and settled by Europeans, it would still, in fact, be
settled by people from the colony, would it not ? — Of course.
It would under any circumstances.

132. So that you would not only lose the country itself,
which would be added to a separate and distinct colony, but
you would lose a portion of your population also ? — Cer-
tainly. In selling the farms, I would advertise a certain
number to be sold at certain different places, just as they
might be fixed upon, and would see that the parties clearly
understood the conditions. I think it should be left open for
me, for instance, to come and buy a farm here if I wanted it,
as well as for a western man to go to the frontier and buy
there ; otherwise there would always be grumbling, for in
the west you would be able to get a farm for £5, whereas
in the east you would have to pay £50, simply because of
the competition from the convenience of being able to per-
sonally inspect the land.

133. Chairman.^ Could not some active and intelligent
civil servant, standing somewhat in the position of a civil
commissioner, be placed with advantage in that district to
issue titles, without the necessity of sending down here for
them ? — I think, perhaps, the Free State can give us a better
idea of what ought to be done in this way. They first of all
issue a kind of land certificate, the holder of which is en-
titled to immediate occupation, and then you get your titles

C. 3— 'CI. ANNEXATION-4. ^



26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir w. Currk. afterwarcls when regularly prepared. Some plan of this kind
JuiyloTisei. should be adopted lo expedite occupation.

134. But should not there be some superior officer in the
district ? — You would of course require a chief magistrate,
the same as the civil commissioner at Queen's Town,

135. Mr. Wicht.] Is there no fear of Moshesh's tribe, in
the event of his death, joining the other tribes against the
colony? — Moshesh's second son, Nehemia, is already in the
mountains; but I think myself that when Mo.shesh dies there
will be a split up of his tribe. He has three or four power-
ful sons, and there will therefore naturally be a commotion
and division in the tribe ; but still I do not think we have
anything to fear from it.

136. When England has been engaged in a European
war has not the intelligence been conveyed to the Kafir
chiefs, and have they not become restless in consequence? —
Yes, that was the case. Moshesh, however, seemed to have
understood better himself, and never to have joined them. It
is astonishing with what accuracy and dispatch intelligence
of this nature is conveyed.

137. How are the Fingoes on the border disposed towards
the colony; are they restless ? — They have been very peaceable
lately. Land certificates as titles have been given them, and
they have tilled a large quantity of land ; and those, of
course, who have had this pi-ivilege are loyal enough, and
are trying to accumulate property. There are, no doubt,
a few disturbers of the peace among them as amongst all
tribes and people, but not many.

138. Are not the young men restless, and is there not a
danger of their joining the Kufirs? — I have no immediate
fear myself. 1 have not heard of it, and I think I would have
found it out This sort of thing only takes place among the
young men of the Fingoes when there really is a move
somewhere. For instance, if Kreli positively made up his
mind to fight for his country again and to attack us at once,
perhaps that might induce the young men to become restless,
but as long as things are quiet I do not fear The Fmgoes,
upon the whole, may be considered very quiet just now.

139. Then you think there is no immediate danger from
the Fingoes ? — I am sure not.

140. Chairman.] As the Fingoes who are within the
bounds of the colony increase in numbers, would you think
it desirable that they also should be allowed to go into the



SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANNEXATION. 27

unoccupied countries beyond, in the same way as Adam ^^ w^mt.
Kok ?— I would certainly let them go there, for there are July 20, 1861.
miles of unoccupied country, and I think they would be
friendly to the Europeans. 1 took some of them with me,
and they had no idea that tiiere were such savages as the
people living there. They did not think they could ever
have been the same people as themselves. I met some of
my old friends from Graaft-Reinet right away up the coun-
try. One of them lent me two horses and went with me for
two days. He said he was very sorry that he had gone
there ; that he was doing pretty well, but when he came
there ten years ago he was very rich, and had since then
been reduced. 1 asked him why he did not go back, but he
said he had been so long there, and was getting old, that he
did not like ffoino; back. While there he had had nothinoj
but trouble, first fighting one chief and then another. *' If
you don't go to fight," said he, " you are fined, and if you do
go perhaps you get precious well thrashed, or you are very
hard worked, and then, when we are successful, our cattle
are taken ; the chief gets them all." That was his account of it.

141. From where have the Hottentots come who are
marked down on the plan as residing in the unoccupied coun-
try — They are men who took part in the Hottentot rebellion.
There are about seventy of them. They have come, some from
Theopolis, some froiii Kat River, some from 8hiloh. I sent
to them to come and see me, but they would not come. I
had an old Hottentot with me who had been a year on the
road from Kat River, and wanted to go and see his family,
but he could not get through the native tribes, by whom he
was always detained. I found him at 8hawbury, and he
asked me to let him go with me, which I did till we arrived
at the river, being close to where his people were settled,
and then he went off. I sent word by him to ask those
people to come and speak to me, but they did not come.

142. If you occupied the country in the way you proposed,
would you prevent Ki'eli's men from coming over the boundary
into Kafirland, or would it be [lossible to keep them out 'i — •
I do not think it would be possible, or advisable. It would
be much better to let them have ingress and egress as long
as there was nothing contraband about them. Of course
they would all require a pass, but they ought to be able to
procure passes. I would not, of course, allow Kreli to give
them passes, but the magistrate should, if he accepted one.



28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir w. Currie. ]43. What age is Kreli? — About six or seven and forty.

July ioT 1861. He has several sons, but one has never spoken to him lately,
nor come into his councils. He is angry with his father for
having sacrified his rights in his own country, by having
acted so towards the British Government. He is his great-
son, and, in fact, Kreli is afraid of liis life, for he threatens
him.

144. Would you not have expected that he would have
come and seen you ? — He is only about twenty-one, quite a
youngster, and would not have dared to do that. Faku's
great-son, again, is about twenty-five. He has four wives, or
as many as he can buy, but not being circumcised, though
lie was a consenting party to the giving up of this portion
of Faku's country, dare not come and sit in the council,
and that was the reason that they separated from me and
went on one side, twenty or thirty yards off, to talk it over