Cape of Good Hope (South Africa). Parliament. Legi.

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where he could come and join in the discussion, the result
of which was that they brought in the proposal to give up a
certain line. This shows how particular the natives are in
these matters. His father does not want him to be circum-
cised, for the moment that ceremony is performed he would
take away a great deal of the old man's influence ; still he
had a great deal to do with this proposal, though he dare
not open his mouth in council.

145. Is he well disposed? — Yes; he with his councillors
went on one side, and described to Mr. Jenkins what boun-
daries he should put down ; and I got Mr. Jenkins first to
draw out a rough plan, which I took the precaution of keep-
ing, lest all this should be said to be an idea of my own.
1 never expected such a proposal, and I asked the reason,
upon which I was told that the chief had ground to fear that
encroachments would be made, and that he would rather have
our protection than that any others should come near him
and disturb his peace. In marking out the country they also
allowed for a reasonable amount of increase of population for
half a century.

146. Mr. Wicht.] Are you always able. Sir Walter, to
keep up your corps to its full complement? — I have no diffi-
culty in doing so, but I have not made it a practice.

147. Do you not think that a large number of the force
will leave as settlers for this unoccupied country? — The men
very seldom leave till they are full of rheumatism and wounds.
They serve for three years, and then go away with horse.


saddle, and bridle, and sell all they have to have a spree, sir m Currk.
They are forced from the circumstance of their position to jui^ IJ^isei.
save about £50 during that time ; and after they have spent
all they have, they come back again, re-enlist, and receive a
fresh equipment, the expense of which is provided by the
Government and stopped from their pay.

148. Of what sort of persons is it composed; of colo-
nial youth also ? — I have not many of them at present. I
receiveda good many men from England, whom Mr. Field sent
me. I have mostly English and Germans in the force, and
many young emigrants. I have my pick and choice of such
men, and could increase the force to six hundred if 1 had

149. What is your present number? — Four hundred and
fifty. The Parliamentary grant provides for five hundred,
but I generally keep it about fifty below the mark, and then,
when I need an extra hundred in time of emergency, I can
easily procure them without exceeding the vote.

150. Are they well mounted ? — Very well mounted.
Their turn-out costs about £50, with rifle and horsegincluded,
and that is gradually taken back at £3 a month, till all is
repaid. Their rations are generally contracted for; the
contractor not being allowed to issue beyond a certain
amount except at his own risk.

i51. And you have no difficulty in finding contractors? —
No, they go anywhere for money ; there is no difficulty.

Wednesday, 24th July, 1861.
His Honour the President (Chairman),

Mr. de Wet,
Mr. Jarvis,
Mr. de Roubaix,

Mr. Tucker,
Mr. von Maltitz,
Mr. Wicht.

The Hon. H. Soiithey, Acting Colonial Secretary examined.

152. Chairman.'] You have been acquainted with the -aon.R.Southaj
frontier of this colony for many years ? — I have. j^^j "jgei

15:3. Sir Walter Currie, in his evidence before this com-
mittee, has recommended a European settlement of the
territory between the Kei and the Bashee, somewhat on the


i{on.R.Southey principle on which the Queen's Town district was settled.

July ^1861. Can you tell us when the Queen's Town district was filled up
by grantees ? — Immediately after the last Kafir war, begin-
ning, I should say, in 1853, and continuing during 1854
and 1855.

154. That district is now well occupied, is it not? — Very

155. And the people settled there are in prosperous cir-
cumstances, g;eneral]y speaking ? — They are.

156. Is the whole of the district now divided into farms,
or is there still some outlying land ? — There is still some out-
laying land, which was vacated by the native chiefs Vandanna
and Qupsha, who were driven out of it during 1857 or

157. Can you state very shortly the nature of the terms
upon which the settlers were located in that division ? — There
are certain printed conditions of grant, one of which 1 could
have brought with me had I known it would be required.
Those desirous of having grants made to them were requested
to make application. Their applications were then submit-
ted to a commission appointed by the Governor, which com-
mission selected from the applicants su(h as they thought
best adapted for occupying that part of the country, with a
view to the general defence of the colony, as well as their
own protection. Those so approved of obtained a grant of
one thousand five hundred to two thousand morgen, subject
to the condilion of personal occupation ; and for every five
hundred morgen over the first one thousand, the grantee was
required to keep an armed retainer, efiiciently armed and
with a sufi^cient supply of ammunition.

158. Perhaps you will be good enough to favour the
committee with a copy of those conditions? — I will. Besides
what I have mentioned, the grantees are hable to an annual
muster and inspection by the civil commissioner, or such
other officer as the Governor might appoint ; the Queen's
birthday being the occasion usually chosen for the purpose.

159. Has your oflicial connection with the frontier made
you acquainted with the working of the system ; have these
musters been well attended, and lid s the plan generally answered
the expectations of its originators? — I think, speaking gene-
rally, it has answered very well indeed.

J 60. Previous to 1853, the district was quite unoccupied,
was it not, by Europeans ? — Quite so.


161. I suppose a great quantity of articles subject to Uon.R.Southey
customs dues are now consumed in that division? — The juiy"^i86i.
consumption of imported articles there is quite equal to that

of any other district having- a similar number of inhabitants :
and the quitrents will also be coming in presently, when the
district will be more than self-supporting.

162. It is so now, is it not? — 1 could not say it is so at
present, because all the titles are not yet issued ; but it will
become so.

163. Then that district has been a great gain to the
colony ? — A very considerable gain indeed, both as regards
the protection of the inhabitants and the benefit of the
inhabitants generally.

164. Supposing the country between the Kei and the
Bashee were occupied in a similar manner, w^ould it be
more desirable that the land should be granted, as at Queen's
Town, or do you approve of a suggestion made to put up
the farms to auction subject to a small quitrent, requiring
each purchaser of course to be qualified, so as to avoid
difficulty in the selection of applicants ? — The advantage in
granting is that you select the persons best fitted for occu-
pying the front, an advantage which cannot be secured by
sale by public auction.

165. It was suggested by Sir Walter Currie to make it a
condition of sale that the person purchasing must occupy,
and also enforce the condition, as to age and ability to defend
his property ? — Then you must limit the sale to individuals
approved of beforehand, and that will amount to the same
thing perhaps.

166. It was considered that such an arrangement would
save the Government from being supposed to be partial to
particular applicants, and open to the imputation of having
wilfully passed over those who failed to secure grants under
the other system ? — If you have to select persons who may
purchase, and refuse to allow others to bid who are not so
approved, there would be the same difficulty. You would
still lay yourselves open to the same charge.

167. Have you been in the district between the Kei and
the Bashee? — Several limes.

168. It is a fertile country is it not? — I know it is a very
fertile country. I was there in 1829, and again in the Kafir
war of 1834 and 1835.

169. It is well adapted for sheep? — The upper parts are.


Hon.R.Southey 170. And for com ? — It produced at the time I went
July liTisei. th''ough it large quantities of Kafir corn, and would produce,
I have no doubt, any quantity of grain.

171. What climate has it ? — Similar to the Albany country ;
very good.

172. Do you know anything of its port Mazeppa Bay? —
No ; I am not able to speak concerning that.

173. It is a wooded country.'' — There is wood, but not I
think much large timber.

174. Mr. Wicht.~\ The territory now called Queen's Town
was formerly occupied by V^adana and Tambookies was it
not? — By Tambookies. Vadana occupied a portion of the
Queen's Town district, now vacant, on the border of the

175. Was he one of the parties who joined in the war
against us ? — Yes ; and was concerned in the robbery of

176 Part of which he sent to Kreli? — Yes; he stole them
in conjunction with Kreli, co-operating with him.

177. Are you aware whether any efforts were made to
induce Kreli to discontinue? — Yes; there were constant
communications from the Governor to him ; he was warned

178. Was there any open declaration of hostilities ? — No ;
but he was concerned in several affairs.

179. Do you think the Government was fully justified by
the law of nations in taking possession of this land and
expelHng the inhabitants ? — I should certainly say so.

180. Is the territory to which he has now been driven
large enough for his people to graze their cattle in ? — There
is abundance of territory over the Bashee, and I think Sir
Walter Currie mentions in his letter, which the Governor
sent down to the council, that he had been authorized by
the Governor to arrange with Kreli in locating him and his
people in part of the unoccupied territory. He is at present
in the territory of Moni, near the coast, on the left bank of
the Bashee.

181. Will he and his people not continue hanging on the
outskirts of this country, if settled, and continue robbing us,
so as to make it necessary that he should again be driven
into the interior of Africa? — I should say not; though
you will always be in contact with the natives wherever
you go.


182. Suppose the natives go on stealing, commandoes Kon.R.Southey
will have to be called out to drive them further back ; then MyuTiaQu
they will have to come into contact with other native tribes

and cause them a great deal of mischief, will they not? —
The Governor's arrangement does not contemplate driving
them further forward, but aims rather at brino-ino; them
under jurisdiction, to a certain extent, and improving their
condition by taking measures for civilizing them. Our occu-
pation of the country, and bringing the people under a certain
amount of jiu'isdiction, will be found to avert the evil, I

183. But in your opinion is it not better that this country
should be formed into a separate settlement, under the
Imperial Government, than that we should extend our
Frontier? — I am quite of the opposite opinion. I think this
C(^lony should go on extending itself, and that its only safety
will lie in such extension.

184. Are we not weakening ourselves, by making our
Frontier so extensive that we cannot protect it properly? — If
we cannot protect it, we should be weakening ourselves; but
I think we can protect it, and therefore we are rather
strengthening than weakening ourselves.

185. Will you not, by the proposed settlement, be denud-
ing the older portions of the colony of its bone and sinew ? —
I think they will soon fill up ; some two or three hundred
grantees went to Kaffraria two years ago, but I do not find
that their places are unoccupied : on the contrary, the coun-
try they went from is as full now as it was before.

18G. But are you not encouraging nomadic habits on the
part of the grantees instead of agricultural habits, by con-
stantly holding before them fresh fields and pasture lands ;
should you encourage that, or should you induce them to
settle down and cultivate the soil? — The grantees do not
settle down as graziers ; they cultivate the soil successfully.
Visit Queen's Town, and you will find large quantities of
land under cultivation, producing a great deal of grain and
many other articles of agricultural produce. I should say
that the Queen's Town district as regards cultivation, is equal
at the present time to almost any other part of the colony.

187. But will you not require a larger force of mounted
police to protect those who settle in this country ? — No ; I
think you will require a smaller force. My opinion is that
the more you limit your possessions in this colony the greater

C 3.— '61. ANNEXATION— 5. ^


Hon.R.Southei/ force you require to protect yourselves from the larger
juiyliTisei. number of natives pressing down upon your borders.

188. Is not a well defended boundary and a compact ter-
ritory preferable to a large straggling colony ? — I do not see
the advantage of having a boundary at all.

189. You would extend the colony then to the tropics? —
As far as necessary, and as fast as we had people to do it
with. Of course, it would take time and means to accom-
plish it.

190. I believe you are aware that several of our Gover-
nors, in past times, have been obliged to be constantly on
the frontier, watching the movements of the natives there,
and not able, in consequence, to direct much attention to the
internal affairs of the Government. Do you not think that
it is a great disadvantage to the older portion of the settle-
ment that you should press forward and neglect us ? — That
may be attributed to the fact that we have not adopted those
plans which Sir George Grey desires to carry out. If his
plans were adopted and carried out extensively, you may
avoid that very thing you now think so disadvantageous.

191. Do you not think that there will be frequent calls
from these grantees for protection ; that they will be con-
tinually urging the colonists to assist them ? — I think they
will be able to protect themselves in the same way that I
believe the Queen's Town district can now protect itself.

192. But when the settlers arrived in 1820, and were
considered a kind of bulwark, did they not call upon other
parts of the colony to assist them? — They were located upon
a bad principle. They were sent there to fill up the country,
and the British Government had promised to protect them,
not that they should protect the country. I believe if you
refer to the conditions of settlement you will find that that
was the case.

193. You do not know whether it is the intention of the
Home Government to keep a military force constantly in the
country beyond the Kei, if settled ? — I do not know what
the views of the Home Government may be, but should
think that it would matter very little to them whether their
troops were kept at one spot or at another.

194. But would you not require more troops to defend
your frontier if such an extension of country were carried
out? — Less, I should think, ultimately, and not more at


195. Does it not stand to reason, that, when you had only iioa.R.Southey
the Gaikas and the Slambies to contend with and were then juiy 1471861.
obliged to keep up a force of ten or twelve thousand men,

if you have all these other nations coming down upon
you, you will require a larger body of troops ?— I think you
never had only the Gaikas to contend with, for you had
always the other natives also, and always in a compact body.
The Gaikas were on the immediate frontier, but the Galekas
and the others were immediately behind them, so that they
were all able to act in concert. By occupying the country
around and behind them, you will divide them, and prevent
that co-operation amongst them, which has hitherto proved
so injurious to ourselves.

196. Would it not be better to attach this unoccupied
country to British Kafiraria than to attach it to this colony ? —
I should like to have seen Kaffraria attached to this colony
also. I think its establisment as a separate colony is much
to be regretted.

197. But I suppose the question of expense was consid-
ered ? — It was a mistake to look at expense, for that coun-
try will very soon more than maintain itself.

198. In time of peace it might; but in time of war? —
The object of this annexation seems to me to be to pre-
vent war.

199. We know that Sir George Grey is going away, and
that his name has been a tower of strength, as it were,
among the natives. In the event of his successor reversing
his policy, will not the native races become irritated and
press down upon the colony to steal and plunder? — I think
the measures have had more influence than the name. I don't
think it matters much about the name if we only carry out
the measures.

200. As an old colonist you know the state the colony has
been in from the vacillating policy of different Governors,
and the consequent inconvenience ? — I have attributed that
to the mistaken policy of the Home Government in keeping
to a boundary line, instead of carrying out an enlarged po-
licy similar to that Sir George Grey recommends. Sir Ben-
jamin D'Urban's idea was somewhat similar to that of Sir
George Grey. If his despatches are referred to it will he
found that he proposed something similar to the arrangements
which Sir George Grey proposes as best adapted to insure
the future peace and security of the country.


Hon.R.Southei/ 20 1. Suppose that tliis territory were settled on the same
JuiyliTisGi. terms as Queen's Town, could you devise means for its civil
Government. Would the same laws which govern the colony
affect it. That is, would the judges of the supreme court
have to travel the circuit, and punish thefts committed there;
or would you introduce a summary kind of government by a
mihtary court? — I think if you annex it to the colony, colo-
nial laws must apply to it.

202. Are the people there in a sufficient state of civili-
zation to participate in those laws? — There are no people
there at present; it is unoccupied, except by a few natives on
the Bashee.

203. That is only as far as Kreli is concerned ; but I
believe a motion has been made for extension to Natal ? — In
that case you would come in contact with certain natives
with whom arrangements would have to be made.

204. The settlers there would require members to repre-
sent them in Parliament, would they not, and that would
give rise to the balance of number being restored by giving
additional members to the Western Province also ? — You
have not given a member to Queen's Town, but you attached
it to the Victoria district. Of course all these are future
considerations ; when we once have it occupied these other
matters may then be considered. In the Western Province,
even, you have a large extent of country lying beyond
Clanwilliam, Namaqualand for instance, which is not specially

205. Would you advise annexation when we are already
so entangled with our present borders, and our financial
position is such that we do not know wliether we are
advancing or retrograding ? — 1 do not contemplate any
expense. Queen's Town 1 believe was filled up without any
special expense.

206. But you would have to build court houses and gaols,
appoint magistrates, and provide all the other necessaries of
civilization, will you not? — You will have a large quantity
of land for sale.

207. I understand you to say you will grant it? — You
must always keep reserves for townships, without granting
the whole. 1 do not object to selling, to provide prisons.
I merely say with regard to unlimited sale that it would be
open to the same objection as granting as regards favoritism,
which probably you cannot exclude entirely under any system.


208. Would there not be a demand made upon Parliament Ron.R.southey
by those residing there for grants for roads and bridges, juiy "2471801.
without the colony receiving any adequate return ? — I should

expect that the return from that district would in a very short
time equal the return from any other part of the colony.

209. Do you not think it would be more expedient on
our part to recommend that this district, taking all circum-
stances into consideration, should be formed into a separate
settlement? — No I do not. I am opposed to a number of
small independant states. I would rather see one good
strong and large colony.

210. But not being able to protect ourselves efficiently
now, fears are entertained by some that v/e would be less
able if the colony were extended ? — I have no fears of this
kind. I think if you had never gone beyond the Hottentot
Holland mountains you would have required a greater force
to protect yourselves against the immense hordes beyond,
than you would with an extended colony.

211. Mr. Jarvis.] Is the country proposed to be occupied
available now for European occupation ? — It is well wooded
and watered, with a splendid soil for cultivation. Cattle
thrive there very well and goats also, though I saw no sheep
when I went through the country.

212. Are you aware whether there are any ports on the
coast available ? — J^carcely. I do not know what Mazeppa
Bay may be, but at the mouth of the Umsimvoobo small vessels
go in now, bringing cargoes of merchandize, and taking back
cargoes of grain, but they are only small vessels of perhaps
forty or fifty tons.

213. Then would you think it more advisable that the
whole of the country sliould be attached to the Cape Colony
than that any part should be attached to Natal ; or would
you be prepared to suggest any line of demarcation ? — I am
not prepared to suggest any such line. Natal claims a
portion of the land under a treaty with Faku many years
ago ; but we can join Natal at some other point, as I pre-
sume it would matter very little where the junction with
Natal took place.

214. Are you decidedly of opinion, however, that the
colony should have the management itself, rather than that
the annexation should take place to any other colony? — Yes;
I would rather see the colony exercising the management of
it itself.


B.oji.R.Southey 215. Mr. Tucker.'\ Do you not think that Vandana was
juiy^iiTisei. encouraged to steal by having Kreli to fall back upon? —

There is no doubt that he was not only encouraged but

urged to do so by Kreli.

216. Do you not look upon Kreli's country as always
having been the centre of all the mischief which has burst
on the frontier? — Decidedly. Kreli's father, Hintza, was
the paramount chief of the whole tribes, although not exer-
cising jurisdiction over the smaller tribes, he was looked up
to by them as paramount chief, and exercised a considerable
influence over them, as did also his son Kreli.

217. Kreli has been the receiver of stolen goods for many
years? — In every war he has been the receiver.

218. Are you of opinion that removing Kreli to the coun-
try where he now is will have the effect of cutting off the
British Kaffrarian tribes from falling back upon Kreh in
future, as they hitherto have done ? — Yes.

219. And that consequently wars will be less likely to
take place if the country is filled up with Europeans than if
left in its present state ? — Very much so I think, aided by
the carrying out of the system which Sir George Grey has
adopted for civilising the natives, by placing European ma-
gistrates among them. There is a very anxious desire on
the part of the natives themselves to have this done.

220. Do you think that the fact of Sir George Grey being
about to leave the colony, should lead parliament to hesitate
as to the annexation of the country between the Kei and the
Bashee ? — I think that it should have the reverse effect, and
that the Parliament should as far as it can take Sir George
Grey's place, and carry out his policy.

221. Then you think that if the Parliament take such
steps as shall lead to the filling up of the country it will
guard the country in a great measure from the vacillating
policy consequent on changes of Governors ? — I think so ;

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