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and that is the only way to obtain permanent security to the
country from Kafir wars.

222. And if the Parliament, in former years had had
something to say, the policy of the Governors would pro-
bably not have vacillated in the same way? — Probably not.

223. I ask now a question in reference to what you have
said already. Has the Queen's Town district ever called
upon Government for its defence ? — The district has certainly
not. But when a war was considered almost certain in 1857,



SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANNEXATION. 39

the civil commissioner called out some burghers and pro- Uoa.R.Southq/
ceeded to take up a line of defence. He then wrote to the ^ , 71", op,

r^ r- July 24, 18G1.

uovernment recommending that some troops, or other burg-
hers should be sent to take up the line from him onwards ;
but the Government, having better information than the civil
commissioner, did not think war so certain as he regarded it,
and therefore took no such steps. The people themselves,
however, never applied for any assistance in this way.

224. Then you think that we are justified in coming to
the conclusion that if this proposed country were filled up ia
the same way as Queen's Town, the grantees would be equally
successful in defending themselves and adding security to
colony ? — Quite so. I think the Queen's Town people feel
that the Kafirs are no match for them now, but that they
are more than a match for any Kafirs.

225. Has not the secure settlement of Queen's Town
tended to raise the value of all kinds of property in the
adjacent districts? — Very largely. It has very considerably
increased the value of lands in the Winterberg, and in parts
of Fort Peddie and Beaufort, and also along the whole
frontier line generally.

226. You stated that you regretted that KafFraria was not
added to the colony. Do you not consider that the colony,
in giving up that as a separate settlement has actually incur-
red the expense of its defence to a great extent by voting
the mounted police, and has also foregone at the same time
advantages which it might otherwise have derived from the
incorporation ? — Yes ; 1 think it is to be regretted that small
separate and district states should be established on our
frontier.

227. Do you think if the country between the Kei and
the Bashee were added to Kaffraria, that they would be in a
position to occupy it and defend it without assistance from
the colony ? — If KafFraria were to take possession of the
country and distribute it among grantees, they would have
no difficulty in getting people from the colony to go there,
in the same way that two or three hundred went into KafFra-
ria for the same purpose.

228. So that in any case the population would be drawn
from the colony ? — There is no doubt it would. Some two
thousand applications are now in the Lieut. -Governor's
otfice for land in British KafFraria and other unoccupied
country.



40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Hon.R.So«rtey 229. Ml'. Wickt.] Applications from speculators in land ?

JuiyliTisGi. — No ; from bond fide applicants, desirous of going there on
terms of personal occupation, ready to cultivate the ground,
and able to show that they are in a position to do so.

230. Mr. Tucker.] And do you think the settlement by
grant on military tenure in the Queen's Town district has
worked so successfully, that it is desirable to settle the country
now referred to in the same manner ? — I think there is no
question about it, both for the benefit of the colony and of
the natives.

231. The Queen's Town people mustered strongly, I be-
lieve, to assist in expelling Kreli ? — Yes ; they went out
willingly ; though not bound by their conditions to do it,
they immediately, when called upon, volunteered to a con-
siderable extent, went out, and did very good service.

232. Then you think that it is of great importance that
immediate steps should be taken to fill up this country, espe-
cially between the Kei and the Bashee ? — Decidedly; I have
been very anxious to see it filled up ; it cannot be kept
unoccupied very long, for if not taken possession of and
filled up by ourselves, it will soon be by the natives.

233. You think that the effect of this country remaining;
unoccupied will be to unsettle the minds of the natives, and
raise the hope in Kreli's mind that he will regain his coun-
try? — Yes; not only in Kreli's mind but of many other
natives who are looking to his unoccupied territory, and
wishing to go into it. I do not think the present small
detachment of pohce can keep the country long unoccupied.

234. You will also have to increase the force and concen-
trate the police? — If there is a thought of keeping the coun-
try unoccupied, you will certainly require a very large force
to hold it ; and if you decide on not occupying at once, it is
sure to be filled up by natives.

235. Mr. de Boubaix.] In what way would you propose
to allot the country if occupation were resolved on ? — I should
not care whether the ground were granted or sold, provided
you sold it in some way which would only admit of properly
qualified persons becoming the purchasers, and not allow a
widow for instance to purchase a farm, being no use in the
defence of the country, or a cripple, or an aged man. Pre-
vious selection of some kind would be necessary.

236. Certain special conditions of a suitable character
should be imposed.'' — Yes; very similar to those of Queens



SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANNEXATION. 4l

Town ; and I also think you would require a special appoint- Uon. r. Souths;,
ment to see that the conditions ot occupation are always juiy 24, 1861.
being fulfilled. The weak point of the Queen's Town system
has been the absence of such an officer.

237. Do you not think that the sufferers by Kafir wars
have a claim on this unoccupied land? — No; the land beyond
the Kei has nothino-to do with Kafir war losses. That is a
separate question. I fancy that even Mr. Bowker would
scarcely lay claim to land beyond the Kei for such a purpose.

238. Still there has been several apphcations for comprn-
sation from time to time, and hopes have been held out as it
were, have they not, that these parties would get compeiisa-
tion when lands were available for the purpose ? — in giving
out the Queen's Town district, preference was allowed, if I
remember rightly, to parties who had lost by Kafir wars, pro-
vided they were the right sort of people for grantees.

239. Then it is your opinion, Mr. Southey, that immedi-
iite steps sliould be taken by Parliament to see that British
authority is extended to that part of the country ? -1 think
so, most decidedly.

240. Mr. Jarvis.] I see there are several missionary sta-
tions in this country it is pro[)osed to annex. Have these
missionaries any power or authority over the natives? — They
have an influence, but no power or authority.

241. Do you believe that they exercise a great influence
for good ? — I think some of them do.

242. So that it is a great advantage, supposing possession
be taken, that these missionaries are now at work there ; it
will facilitate carrying out the object will it not ? — Certainly.
[Mr. Southey here read a communication from Mr. Warner,
Tambookie agent, covering a proposal from the Tambookie
chief Joey that his tribe should be taken under British rule,
and a magistrate appointed to administer affairs, Joey being
recognized as regent].

243. Mr. de Wet.] Are you aware in what capacity His
Excellency the Governor has acted in locating magistrates in
in the country beyond the Kei, as High Commissioner or as
Governor of the Colony ? — As High Commissiouer I should
say. He moved up from Kaffiaria to the Bashee a number
of mixed natives, Kafirs, Fingoes, and probably Tambookies
also. They were at first placed under the supervision of
Major Gawler of the 73d Regt., and when his regiment was
subsequently ordered to India, he was replaced by Lieut.

C. 3— 'Cl. ANNEXATION— 6. ^



42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

B.on.R.Sont/iei/ ColHe of the 2nd Queen's. When Lieut. ColHe's regiment
July 1^1861. was also removed, an acting superintendent, Mr. Shepstone,
was appointed.

244. Does it not appear to you that the appointment of a
magistrate in an unoccupied country amounts to an act of
sovereignty, and is tantamount to virtually occupying the
country? — We have been to a certain extent exercising the
right of sovereignty over the country between the Kei and
the Bashee, by keeping a police force there, and also a native
police under the supervision of a superintendent, these
natives occupying a very small portion of country on the
Bashee.

245. Does not that superintendent administer justice ? —
Only among his own people with whom he is placed.

246. In the event of this annexation, do you think the home
Government would charge itself with the defence of the
newly occupied country? — My idea as regards defence is to
put people into that country who can defend themselves to a
great extent.

247. But are you under the impression that the mother
country will always provide the colony with whatever troops
it may require for the defence of the frontier ? — It is impos-
sible to speak of what the home Government intend doing;
but we know that they have hitherto kept a considerable num-
ber of troops in the colony, and I do not see that they pro-
pose to diminish them. My opinion is that by taking this
step we should certainly be diminishing the habilities of
future war and trouble.

248. Do you not think that the colony will always be mixed
up with the internal quarrels of these different tribes now
located there, in the event of occupation taking place ? — We
have always been mixed up with internal troubles, so that it
seems to me desirable to adopt a policy which will tend to
lessen the difficulty in that respect, and ultimately even wholly
to prevent it.

249. You are, then, of opinion that part of the defence of
that country, when occupied, will fall upon the colony ? — I
think the occupation of that country would lessen the
requirements for defence.

250. But does not the country remain exposed to invasion
by a maritime power? — Of course it would.

251. In what way way, then, would you propose to
provide for the defence of the coast of that country? — I



SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANNEXATION. 43

suppose we would not ourselves be exactly able to defend it. uon.R.Southey
We should have to trust to Great Britain probably in such juiy^isei.
a case. We know we would be even unable to protect
sufficiently our present coast-line, though I must be allowed
to say that it would take a very strong European force to
march through this country in opposition to the wishes of its
people,

252. In the event of this annexation taking place, do you
not think it would place the Home Government in a false
position in respect to foreign powers, — that whilst protesta-
tions are being made by England as to its disinterestedness
in such matters, it should itself go on annexing its frontier?
— I do not imagine that any foreign power would interfere
with our progress along the coast of Africa.

253. So that you do not think it would create any difficulty
among statesmen at home ? — Not the slightest.

254. And will not afford foreign powers an opportunity
of protesting that whilst England is endeavouring to check
them in encroaching upon foreign territory, it itself goes on
doing the very same thing ? — No.

255. Mr. Wicht.] I believe you are aware that an agitation
has been carried on in the Eastern Province for separation
and that they have stated, among other reasons for such a
change, that their wants are not properly attended to at pre-
sent on account of the distance. Would not the annexation
of so much additional territory increase this difficulty ? — I do
not see how it should.

256. These parties are anxious to be separated from the
West, because they say that their affairs are neglected. Would
their affairs not be still more neglected in case of annexation?
I do not say that we neglected their affairs.

257. But hitherto they say there has been no inchnation
to assist them ? — Then we must behave better in future.

258. You have spoken of the propriety of appointing a
Government resident to that country if annexed. Has not
that principle of Government residents been tried in the Free
State, and failed? — I do not think it failed ; and I think it is
very much to be regretted that the British Government with-
drew from that country.

259. But were there not so many internal broils that the
Home Government did not know which side to take ? — I do
not think so. I believe the abandonment of the sovereignty
was through mistaken policy. Sir George Cathcart frightened



44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Bon.RSouthey the Home Government by the statement that it would require
July 247 1S61. '2000 troops to defend Bloemfontein. We have since seen
that he was qu^te nnstaken in his views.

260. In the event of this territory becoming more imme-
diately undfT the control of the imperial Government, as a
separate settlement, would that not enable us to withdraw
our police force within our borders ? — It is a question whether
the British Government are disposed to take possession.

261. If there were a strong expression of opinion on the
part of Parliament that it would be desirable that the British
Government should take possession for the security of its
South African possessions? — My idea would be, that it would
be saying to the home Government, *' We are afraid oursel-
ves of bringing on trouble, and therefore we want you to do
so.''

262. But we are very weak in comparison with Great
Britain, are we not; and would it not therefore come with
better grace from her than that we should attempt to meddle?
— I do not think any one can manage these affairs better than
ourselves.

263. It would not be alone for the protection of this colony
but also of Natal and Kaffraria, so that there would be three
settlements of the crown concerned ? — I should rather see the
Parliament of the country exercise control itself than see
another power called in, which might adopt a system differ-
ent to that the Parliament of the country desires to see
adopted.

264. Would not this annexation entangle our affairs still
more. Would it not extend the duration of our sessions,
owing to the necessity for discussing all matters relative to the
added territory, claims for compensation from native chiefs,
&c., in the colonial Parliament ? — No ; my own view is, that
it will lessen difficulties very much. Peace is the great
thing for us, peace and security ; and I think you cannot
obtain that unless you exercise a control over the natives.

^265. We generally find that in case of a European war,
the news is bruited among the native chiefs, and they then
make their attacks upon the colony ; rnay that not again take
place ? — Yes ; if they are left to themselves, and this territory
IS not annexed.

266. In the event of Moshesh dying, may not turbulently
disposed chiefs induce his tribe to join them and cause mischief
to the colony? — I think Moshesh's death would tend to lessen



SELECT COMMITTEE ON ANNEXATION. 45

the danger, because it would cut up his tribe, in my opinion, RoTx.R.Southe^
into sub-divisions among his sons. There would be jealou- juiy iiTisei.
sies among them, and the tribe will not unite for any purpose.

267. You are aware that the Home Government wished
to make a charge on the colony towards defraying the
maintenance of its troops. Now if we show such a grasping
disposition to add new territory, will the Home Government
not urge its claim with still greater emphasis, that we should
contribute towards the maintenance of that peace which we
endanger ? — I do not admit that we would endanger peace.
My idea is that difficullties would decrease.

268. Mr. cle Wet.] Taking it for granted that the annexa-
tion of this country will promote peace on the frontier, do
you not think it will, at all events, render the general adminis-
tration of the colony more difficult than at present, when we
are ah-eady suffering from its unwieldy extent? — I do not
think we are suffering from that cause.

269. Then to what do you attribute the agitation for
separation ? — I would not call that suffering exactly ; rather
a little agitation, which at times is wholesome.

270. But to what do you attribute the cause of that
agitation : do you not attribute it to the extent of the colony,
in some degree? — I could scarcely think so. You would
require to go deeply into things to see if that is the case.
The chances are that if the colony were small you would
have less means of doing good than even you have now.

271. So that you do not believe that annexation would
increase our present difficulty? — I think it will diminish it





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