England) Industrial Remuneration Conference (1885 : London.

The report of the proceedings and papers read in Prince's Hall, Piccadilly, under the presidency of the Right Hon. Sir Charles W. Dilke ... on the 28th, 29th, and 30th January, 1885 online

. (page 1 of 57)
Online LibraryEngland) Industrial Remuneration Conference (1885 : LondonThe report of the proceedings and papers read in Prince's Hall, Piccadilly, under the presidency of the Right Hon. Sir Charles W. Dilke ... on the 28th, 29th, and 30th January, 1885 → online text (page 1 of 57)
Font size
QR-code for this ebook

















Right Hon. SIR CHARLES W. DILKE, Baet., M.P.

On the 28th, 29th, and 30th January 1885



*** Each AiitJior and Speaker has had the opportunity of correcting
Jus rem-arhi before p^Mication, and is solely responsible for the state-
ments of fact and expressions of opinion contained in his contributions
to the volume



CO \ %,% S



> In the spring of 1884 a gentleman of Edinburgh determined to
^ devote a considerable sum of money to the purpose of ' keep-
to ing before the public mind this vital question, viz. — What are


2 the best means, consistent with justice and equity, for bringing
about a more equal division of the daily products of industry
between Capital and Labour, so that it may become possible for
all to enjoy a fair share of material comfort and intellectual
culture, possible for all to lead a dignified life, and less difficult
^ for all to lead a good life ? '

*£ In response to his request. Sir Thomas Brassey, Mr. John

J Burnett, Mr. Thomas Burt, the Earl of Dalhousie, Professor

Foxwell, Mr. Eobert Giflfen, and Mr. Frederic Harrison con-

u sented to act as the Trustees of a sum of 1,000^., which

X should be devoted to prosecuting an inquiry into the question,

'y. Is the present system or manner ivhereby the products of

industry are distributed betiveen the various persons and

'5 classes of the community satisfactory ? Or, if not, are there

t: any means by ivhich that system could be improved ? They

^ determined to invite the Statistical Society to assist in the

undertaking, and a Joint Committee was formed, consisting of

the Trustees and the following nominees of the Statistical

Society : Sir Kawson W. Eawson, Professor Leone Levi, Mr.

F. Gr. P. Neison, Major Kitchie,' Mr. Stephen Bourne, Mr. David

' Major Eitcbie, M.P., was, owing to other engagements, unable to serve on
the committee.



Dale, and the Rev. W. Cunningham. The Joint Committee
subsequently co-opted five additional members : Mr. A. H. D.
Acland, Mr. W. Crawford, Mr. W. H. Hey, Mr. B, Jones, and
Mr. E. D. Roberts.

The Committee determined that they could best carry out
the purpose of the trust by organising a Conference, at which
the interests of Capital and Labour respectively should be
adequately represented by practical men. They determined to
invite papers bearing on the question, and to give opportunity
for the thorough discussion of the statements made in those
papers. They announced their willingness to receive offers of
papers and information as to trade societies or other bodies
that would wish to be represented by delegates at the Confer-
ence, and suggested the following points as specially worthy of
consideration : —

1. The existing system by which the products of industry
are distributed.

2. Do any artificial and remediable causes influence pre-

(a) The stability of industrial employment ;

(6) The steadiness of rates of wages ;

(c) The well-being of the working classes ?

3. How far, in wliat manner, and by wliat means would the
more general distribution of capital, or the State direction of
capital, contribute, or not contribute, to

(a) An increase in the products of industry ;

(6) The well-being of the classes dependent upon the
use of capital ? (Co-operative production, profit-
sharing, &c.)

4. How far, in what manner, and by what means, would (1)
a more general ownersliip of land (peasant proprietorship), of
an interest in land (tenant right), or (2) the State ownership of
land, conduce, or not conduce, to

(a) The increased production of wealth ;

(6) The welfare of the classes affected by the change ?


5. Does existing legislation, or the incidence of existing
legislation, affect prejudicially

(a) The production of industrial wealth ;

(b) The well-being of the classes engaged in the pro-
duction ;

(c) The natural or the most beneficial distribution of
the accumulating products of national industry (in-
cluding Succession Duties, Friendly Societies, Insur-
ance, &c.) ?

Can any of these be promoted by changes in existing legis-
lation or taxation ?

This announcement was made in the London and provincial
papers on September 8, 1884. On the same day an article
appeared in the Pall Mall Gazette from the pen of Mr. F.
Harrison, which gives a clear statement of the purposes of the
founder of the trust, and the hopes entertained by those engaged
in carrying it out.

By Mr. Frederic Harrison.

As I have known something of the projected Conference on In-
dustrial Questions from the first, I may be permitted to say a few
words as to its scope and nature. A gentleman of Edinburgh, who
prefers to remain anonymous, some time ago consul ted several persons
knowai to take an interest in industrial problems, as to how he could
best devote a certain portion of his fortune, so as * to make some pro-
vision for keeping before the public mind this vital question, namely
— Wliat are the best means, consistent with equity and justice, for
bi'inging about a more equal division of the accumidated wealth of
this country, atul a more eqtoal division of the daily products of indus-
try bettoeen Capital and Labour, so that it may become possible for all
to enjoy a fair share of material comfort and intellectual culture,
possible for all to lead a dignified life, and less difficult for all to lead
a, good life ? ' He received in reply various suggestions, and, after
long delibei-ation, decided to name trustees to whom he should mal.e
over an ample fund, authorising them to arrange, in any ways they


thought best, for the holding of a public Conference on some definite
industrial question, limiting the discussion to a moderately small
number of representative men, nominated by well-known bodies
having an industrial interest from many different sides. The original
Ti'ustees are Sir Thomas Brassey, Mr. J. Burnett (of the Engineers'
Society), Mr. T. Burt, M.P., Lord Dalhousie, Mr. Robert Giffen
(President of the Statistical Society), Professor H. S. Foxwell (of
Cambridge), and Mr. Frederic Harrison. The seven Tru.stees held a
series of meetings, wherein they considered the best means of giving
effect with complete impartiality to the purposes of the trust. This
was simply to keep before the public mind the enormous disparity of
comfort resulting from our modern industrial life; which is, as the
original letter puts it, at once a great e\dl in itself and a great danger
to the commonwealth.

There are never wanting, of course, inquiries and discussions as to
alleged defects in our industrial system; but they are not always
fruitful in result, and they usually start from preconceived doctrines
and represent one side or one interest. The Trustees have sought to
originate an inquiry which should not start from any doctrine, and
which should be open to all interests. They have sought to reduce
to a minimum that inevitable part of every inquiry into these Avide
questions which is desultory, unscientific, anarchical, or doctrinaire.
They would wish to have the debate limited to those who have some-
thing to tell us that will stand sifting ; and at the same time they do
not exclude from a fair hearing any serious opinion or school. It
seemed to them that these conditions wovild be best attained if they
proposed to one of the established associations to ixndertake the in-
quiiy with a special Committee and fund. Ultimately the Statistical
Society undertook the task, and named a Sub-Committee for the
purpose. As the published list will show, the Committee now in-
cludes the names of men known as trained officials and administrators,
statisticians, and economists ; leaders of the workmen's movements
and societies ; men representing gi'eat estates, and men rej)resenting
popular constituencies ; as well as sevei-al of the economists of the
younger school, both at Oxford and Cambridge, who have applied
themselves ardently to the study of social problems. The idea in
forming the Committee was to insure the presence of men trained to
business and scientific statistics, who should be ready to look at those
questions from the point of view of laliour as well as capital, and
who would not come to the inquiry witli any hide-bound doctrines,


After much deliberation, the scheme of inquiry adopted by the
Committee is this. They would begin by holding a Conference,
consisting of 150 members, not casually selected from a body of sub-
scribers, much less open indiscriminately to all comers, but consisting
entirely of delegates selected by a great many public associations
representing labour as well as capital, or occupied in the investiga-
tion of industrial questions. Thus trades unions and chambers of
commerce, co-operative and economic societies, together with all
similar associations dealing with industry, either in the interests of
the workmen or employer, or in the interests of society generally,
would be invited to name representatives to the Conference. And,,
alongside of this and the public discussion of such questions, the
Committee would invite papers for publication, and endeavour to
collect trustworthy returns on selected points. After the Conference
is concluded, the scheme contemplates the publication of the discus-
sions, together with such papers, returns, and other information as
may appear worthy of a permanent form. In this way, it is hoped,
something may be done to form materials for a practical hand-book
on industrial problems, the result of the work of many minds, dealing
with the subject under very different conditions. The type to which
such a volume or volumes would Ijelong is the very remarkable
and authoritative Report on Trade Societies, issued by thy Social
Science Association in 1860, That volume was the real source of
almost all the knowledge before the public down to the Keports of
the Royal Commission, in 1867-8-9, which, indeed, in no way super-
seded its usefulness. It is remarkable how many of the men who
worked on that Committee of 1860, and prepared the volume that
resulted from its discussions, have since been eminent in the service
of the State, or in the cause of science. When men like the late Mr.
Fawcett, Mr. Forster, Mr. Shaw Lefevre, and the late Charles Buxton,
Frederick Maurice, and Professor Jevons combined their experience
in one joint investigation, the result was at once impartial and trust-

Whether the inquiry about to be undertaken will bear fruit in
similar usefulness will depend on the answers given to the invitations
by the public bodies and eminent authorities to whom they are ad-
dressed. The subject is, of course, in one sense, a more difficult one
to grasp, because it is not confined to the association of a particular
class, but relates to the field of labour in general. For the details of
the scheme now submitted to the public the original Trustees are not,
as a body, responsible, and by devolving their trust for execution on


the Statistical Society and its sub-committee, they have ceased directly
to control the organisation. But it is their earnest hope that some
little thing may be done to keep befoie the eyes of the public the
need of unremitting efforts to mitigate the acknowledged dangei-s
which beset our industrial life. Men like Mr. Burt and Sir Thomas
Brassey, Mr. Burnett and Mr. Giffen, view that industrial life
from very different points of view, and they often differ widely as
to what the dangers ai-e, and how they could be lessened. But they
have felt, like all their colleagues in the trust, and of the Special
Committee of organisation, that they ought not to decline the task
thrown on them by a man of generous pviblic spirit, who is as completely
free from any personal object in founding this trust as they are them-
selves in accepting it. A nd I believe they all agree with him when
he says, ' Wealth, luxury, and extravagance among the few, accom-
panied by poverty, misery, and want among the many, is at once a
gi'eat evil in itself and a great danger to the commonwealth.' — Pall
Mall Gazette, September 8, 1884.

Wlien the Committee came to consider the practical arrange-
ments of a three days' Conference in greater detail, it became
obvious that the questions must be put somewhat differently if
they were to evoke good discussion, and the business of each
day was planned as follows : —

First Day.

Has the increase of the products of industry within the last
hundred years tended most to the benefit of capitalists
and employers, or to that of the working classes, whether
artisans, labourers, or others ? and in what relative pro-
portions in any given period ?

Second Day.

Do any remediable causes influence prejudicially

(a) The continuity of industrial employment ;

(b) The rates of wages ;

(c) The well-being of the working-classes ?


Third Day.

Would the more general distribution of capital or land, or
the State management of capital or land, promote or
impair the production of wealth and the welfare of the
community ?

In addition to the papers offered, some of which the
Committee were unable to accept, papers were invited from
representative men, who were known to be well qualified to put
forward the views of some important classes of tlie community, or
who were authoritatively recommended as competent to express
the views of some association.^

The Committee then proceeded to invite additional dele
gates to the Conference from bodies connected with different
interests. They desired that the Conference should be composed
so far as possible as follows : —

Number of

1. Delegates of Chambers of Commerce (10) and Associations

of Caisitalists engaged in Industry (10) or Agriculture (10) 30

2. Delegates of Trades Unions 50

3. Delegates of Friendly Societies ...... 10

4. Delegates of Distributive (5) and Productive (10) Co-opera-

tive Societies .15

5. Delegates of Economic, Literary, and Social Societies . . 20


The Conference met on the 28th, 29th, and 30th of January,
1885, in the Prince's Hall, Piccadilly, under the presidency of
Sir Charles W. Dilke. There was a fair attendance of the
general public, especially on the afternoon of the third day.
The present volume contains the papers prepared for the
Conference, along with a verbatim report of the discussions.

' This was the case with Mr. Hyndman and Mr. W. Moms, who were in-
vited by the Committee, on the recommendation of the Social Democratic
Federation, to write or furnish papers from the Socialist standpoint, but who did
not do so and did not attend the Conference. Subsequently three delegates
from the Federation were admitted and took part in the discussions.


The papers and reports have been in all eases submitted to the
authors and speakers for revision, but the Committee has
determined that the volume should be a faithful report of the
proceedings of the Conference, and have only provided for the
omitting of one or two personal and political allusions which
had no real connection with the purpose of the trust. Each
reader or speaker is solely responsible for the accuracy of the
statements made as to matters of fact. In some cases, the
assertions made appeared to members of the Committee to be
demonstrably wrong, but they have determined not to carry the
argument on such matters farther than was done in the
Conference itself. Mr. D. Cunningham, Mr. Hutchinson, and
others of the authors have made brief additions to their papers,
and the Committee have also inserted two contributions as
appendices. One of these is a paper representing the views of
the Shojp Hours League. Two members of this body attended
the Conference at very great personal inconvenience, but owing
to the fortune of the ballot they were unable to bring the views
of the very large class they represent before the Conference.
A short letter has also been reprinted which was addressed to
the Times by Professor Nicholson, whose duties in Edinburgh
rendered it impossible for him to be present and reply to the
criicisms on his paper.




President :
The Right Hon. Sir^CHARLES W. DILKE, Bart., M.P.

Vice-Presidents :

The Right Hon. G. J. SHAW LEFEVRE, M.P.
The Right Hon. A. J. MUKDELLA, M.P.

Committee :

*Mr. Thomas Burt, M.P., Reform Club, S.W.

*Mr. J. Burnett, 90 Blackfriars Road, S.E.

*Professor Foxwell, St. John's College, Cambridge, Ho7i. Sec.

*Mr. F. Harrison, 38 Westbonrne Terrace, W.

*The Earl of Dalhousie, K.T., 86 Brook Street, W.

*Sir Thomas Brassey, K.C.B., M.P., 24 Park Lane, W.

*Mr. R. GiFFEN, Board of Trade, WTiitehall Gardens, S.W.

tSir Rawson W. Rawson, K.C.M.G., C.B., 68 Cornwall Gardens, S.W.

tProfessor Leone Levi, 5 Crown Office Row, Temple, E.G.

tMr. F. G. P. Neison, 30 Moorgate Street, E.C.

tMr. Stephen Bourne, H.M. Custom House, E.C.

tMr. David Dale, Darlington.

tRev. W. Cunningham, Trinitj' College, Cambridge, Sec.

%M.x. R. D. Roberts, Clare College, Cambridge.

JMr. A. H. D. Acland, Fyfield Road, Oxford.

JMr. B. Jones, Co-operative Wholesale Society, Hooper Square, E.

4:Mr. W. H. Hey, 3 William's Place, Victoria Road, Peckham, S.E.

4:Mr. W. Crawford, North Road, Durham.

* Trustees. t Nominated by Statistical Society. % Co-opted by Committee.



Sir T. Brassey, K.C.B., M.P., 24 Park Lane, W.

Mr. R. Giffen, Board of Trade, Whitehall Gardens, S.W.

Mr. Lloyd Jones, U S. Michael's Road, Stockwell, S.W.

Mr. J. G. Hutchinson, 28 Edinburgh Road, Upper Arraley, Leeds.

Miss Edith Simcox, 1 Douro Place, Victoria Road, Kensington, W.

Mr. W. H. Houldsworth, M.P., Knutsford, Cheshire.

Professor Marshall, Chesterton Road, Cambridge.

Mr. W. Owen, Staffordshire Knot Office, New Hall Street, Hanlej', N,

Mr. J. Mawdsley, 260 Ashton New Road, j\Iaucliestcr.

Mrs. Patcrson, 36 Great Queen Street, Lincoln's Inn, W.C.

Mr. W. J. Harris, M.P., Halwell Manor, Highampton.

Mr. J. Jlorloy, M.V., West Hill, Putney, S.W.

Mr. B. Jones, Co-operative Wholesale Society, Hooper Square, E.

Mr. Scdley Taylor, Trinity College, Cambridge.

Lord Bramwell. Four Elms, Edeubridge, Kent.

Mr. A. J. Balfour, M.P., Whittinghame, Prestonkirk, N.B.

Professor Nicholson, 15 Jordan Lane, Edinburgh.

Mr. F. Harrison, 38 Westbourne Terrace, W.

Dr. A. R. Wallace, Frith Hill, Godalming.

Mr. D. Cunningham, M.Inst.C.E., Harbour Works Office, Dundee.


Aberdare, Merth3'r, and Dowlais Miners' Association :
Mr. D. Morgan, 21 Dean Street, Ab rdare.

Agricultural Labourers' Union :

Mr. Ball, Chipping Hill, Witham, Essex.

Alliance Cabinet Makers' Association :

Mr. J. R. Smith, 64 Finsbury Pavement, E.G.

Allotments Association (Maidstone):

Mr. C. Beale, Holland Street Maidstone.

Amalgamated Bootmakers :

Mr. Donald ^IcGregor, 38 Charlotte Street, Fitzroy Square, W.

Amalgamated Cabdrivers' Society :

Mr. E. Dyke, 6 Camera Square, Chelsea, S.W.
Mr. G. S. Ross, 112 Pitfield Street, Hoxton, N.
iMr. H. W. Rowland, 26 Bouverie Street, E.G.

Amalgamated Cotton Spinners :

Mr. William Cape, 32 Albert Street, Ramsbottom.
Mr. J. Mawdsley, 260 Ashton New Road, Manchester.

Amalgamated Society of Carpenters and Joiners :

Mr. J. S. Murchie, 95 Brunswick Street, Ardwick Green, Manchester.

Artisans' Technical Association :

Rev. Henry Solly, East Croydon.


Assington Farming :

Mr. E. Taylor, 4 Bramali Road, Mostyn Road, Brixton, S.E.
Associated Society of ShipwTights :

Mr. Alexander Wilkie, 23 Maxwell Street, Partick, Glasgow.

Mr. D. M. Anderson, 106 Byker Street, Walker, Newcastle-on-Tyne.
Association for the Defence of British Industry :

Mr. C. A. Upton, Mount Pleasant, Merton Road, Wandsworth, S.W.
Eedminster Union :

Mr. Stephen Harding, Bower Ashton, near Bristol.
Birmingham Philosophical Society :

Mr. J. Middlemore.
Boot and Shoe Riveters (Leicester) :

Mr. George Sedgwick, 30 Gladstone Street, Leicester.
Borough Hop Trade Mutual Friendly Society :

Mr. C. Oscar Gridley, 9 Duke Street, London Bridge, S.E.
British Iron Trade Association :

Mr. I. Lowthian Bell, Rounton Grange, Northallerton.

Mr. J. S. Jeans, Victoria Mansions, S.W.
Central Co-operative Board, Midland Section :

Mr. W. Hemm, 57 Healey Street, Nottingham.
Central Co-operative Board, Northern Section :

Mr. T. Rule, 20 Ravensworth Terrace, Gateshead-ou-Tyne.
Central Co-operative Board, North- Western Section :

Mr. D. Fennell, 37 Derby Street, Oldham.

Mr. J. Johnston, S. George's Chambers, Albert Square, Manchester.
Central Co-operative Board, Scottish Section :

Mr. J. Deans, 28 Campbell Street, Riccarton, Kilmarnock.
Central Co-operative Board, Southern Section :

Mr. R. Newton, 2 Champion Ten-ace, Grove Lane, Camberwell, S.E.
Central Co-operative Board, Western Section :

Mr. R. Warne, 12 Vauxhall Road, Gloucester.
Charity Organisation Society :

Dr. G. B. Longstaff, Southfield Grange, West Hill Rd., Wandsworth, S.W.
Cleckheaton Chamber of Commerce :

Mr. S. Wadsworth, B.A., 63 Abingdon Villas, Kensington, W.
Cleveland and District Blastfurnacemen's Association :

Mr. William Snow, 14 Middlesborough Road, South Bank.
Coal Co-operative Society :

Rev. Isaac Doxsey, F.S.S., 186 The Grove, Camberwell, S.E.
Co-operative Printing Society :

Mr. H. R. Shatter, 74 Everton Road, Manchester.
Decorative Co-operators' Association :

Miss M. H. Hart, 405 Oxford Street, W.
East Suffolk Chamber of Agriculture :

Mr. B. B. Hunter Rodwell, Q.C., Holbrook, Ipswich.
Eccles Manufacturing Societj' :

Mr. Mort, Truell Grove, Eccles.


Edinburgh Social Union :

Mr. Patrick Gcddes, 81 Princes Street, Edinburgh.
English Land Restoration League :

Jlr. William Saunders, Mount View, Streatl.ara, S.W.

English Wholesale Co-operative Society :

Mr. T. E. Webb, 2 Plough Road, Battersea, S.W.

Mr. G. Hines, Laurel Cottage, Croft Street, Ipswich.
Exeter Chamber of Commerce :

Capt. Halford Thompson, Claremont, Exeter.
Fabian Society :

Mr. J. G. Stapleton, -IT Lee Terrace, S.E.

Mr. Hubert Bland, Bowater Crescent, Woolwich.

Falmouth Chamber of Commerce :

Mr. H. S. Mackenzie, Falmouth.
Glasgow Chamber of Commerce :

Sir James Bain, Junior Carlton Club, Pall Mall, S.W.
Greenock Chamber of Commerce :

Mr. James Aitkin, 78 Eldon Street, Greenock.
Guild of Co-operators :

Mr. C. Cooper, 31 Southampton Street, Strand, W.C.
Guild of St. Matthew :

Rev. S. D. Headlam, B.A., National Liberal Club, S.W.

Hearts of Oak Benefit Society :

Mr. W. G. Bunn, 27 Overstone Road, Hammersmith, W.

Mr. W. Shaen, 8 Bedford Row, London, W.C.
Hebden-Bridge Fustian :

Mr. J. Greenwood, Nutclough, Hebden-Bridge.

Heckmondwike jManufacturing Company :

Mr. James Crabtree, Croft Mills, Heckmondwike.
Highland Land Law Association, London :

Dr. G. B. Clark, West Dulwich, S.E.
Hollow Ware Pressors' Amalgamated Society :

Mr. C. Bloor, 37 Derby Road, Burslem.
Huddersfield and District Woollen Weavers :

Mrs. Ann Ellis, Cross Bank, Batley.

Irish Land Restoration Society :

Rev. J. Bruce Wallace, M.A., 7 Clifton Park Avenue, Belfast.
Ironfounders :

Mr. James P)revitt, 318 Kennington Road, S.E.

Mr. E. Woods, 200 New Kent Road, S.E.
Labour Association :

Mr. H. Rowley, 6 Adam Street, Adelphi, W.C.
Labourers' Union (Kent and Sussex) :

Mr. Alfred Simmon.s, High Street, Maidstone.
Land Nationalisation Society :

Rev. H. J. B. Heath, 67 Ludgate Hill, E.G.


Land Law Reform League :

Mr. C. Bradlaugh, 3I.P., 20 Circus Road, St. John's Wood, N.W.

Liberty and Property Defence League :

tLord Bramwell, Four Elms, Edenbridge, Kent.

tMr. Wordsworth Donisthorpe, 32 Pembridge Villas, Bayswater, W.

Mr. M. J. Lyons, 12 Wilmington Square, Clerkenwell, W.C.
Lithographic Printers :

Mr. G. D. Kelley, 39 Sidney Street, Oxford Road, Manchester.
Local Taxation Committee :

Major P. G. Craigie, 7 Arundel Street, W.C.
London Chamber of Commerce :

Mr. K. B. Murray, 85 King William Street, E.C.

London Timber Trades' Association :

Online LibraryEngland) Industrial Remuneration Conference (1885 : LondonThe report of the proceedings and papers read in Prince's Hall, Piccadilly, under the presidency of the Right Hon. Sir Charles W. Dilke ... on the 28th, 29th, and 30th January, 1885 → online text (page 1 of 57)