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Frederick Henry Seddon.

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Making 412? Yes.

In gold, according to you? I do not know whether it was in gold
or not. What does she live on if she has all that money?

Now, we will take off the 10 that you paid her on the 2nd September,
and that will leave 402 in gold according to the evidence which we have
got? Yes.

Traced to her in eight months, to the end of August, 1911? Yes.

Now, of that 402, as I understand your statement, when you came



Evidence for Defence.

Frederick H. Seddon

to look for the money on the morning of her death you found 3d. in
copper in her purse? Yes.

And that is all? Yes.

Did you make any inquiry about the money? I hadn't any idea
regarding it.

Then does that mean you made no inquiry? I made the search. I
thought if she had deposited it I ought to find a receipt. I didn't know
whether she might have placed it in the hands of friends or relatives of
hers, though.

What, with you in her house and in her confidence? I had nothing
to do with the property I only dealt with the property twelve months
before that. I had finished with the matter, and it was settled twelve
months before with regard to the financial transactions. I never had her
money, otherwise it would be in my banking account or invested by me.
I have not concealed anything.

According to your view, you had nothing whatever to conceal from
her relatives ? I couldn't explain what had become of that money.

Why did you not tell the relatives that you could not explain it? I
told him he had not shown me that he was the next-of-kin.

Is that your reason? Yes, I did not go into details beyond what I
had already given him.

Now, Mr. Seddon, just think for a minute. If you have any other
explanation to give, give it? I told you that I did not give a thought
to the matter.

And is that your only explanation to my lord and the jury of your
not having said anything- to the relatives about that money being missed?
Yes.

That the man who asked you was not the legal next-of-kin ? And that
I could not say where it was.

Was not that the very reason why you should have told him that
you could not tell where it was? It didn't enter my head for to go into
all the details.

Did you ever tell the police? No.

So that unless this inquiry had taken place no one would ever have
known anything about it? I don't know. I don't know what informa-
tion the relatives are possessed of regarding this matter. She might
have told them all about the financial transactions for all I know. She
was meeting them. I did not know she was meeting them until they
said in evidence they said they were meeting her they said they met
her as late as the last week in August. I have been expecting all through
this prosecution to see the documents come out.

What documents? I concluded she had invested it somewhere or
deposited it somewhere, or something like that. I thought all kinds of
things about it.

And of all kinds of explanations? No. I have not got any explana-
tion regarding it. It has not been in my possession.

If you thought the relatives had it or anybody had it? I did not
know the relatives had it. I thought that.

Then, what I want to know is why you did not mention it to them
when they came to you? At the interview I didn't give it a thought.

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Trial of the Seddons.

Frederick H. Seddon

Did you realise, Mr. Seddon ? I don't think of everything.

You do not think of everything, but you think of several hundreds
of pounds in gold, that is what I am suggesting to you? Several hundreds?

Yes, tht is what I am suggesting? The only money I thought about
was the money she had drawn out of the Finsbury Savings Bank in June.

That was 216? I don't know what she did with it. She said
that she knew what to do with it.

You knew when the appointment was made for 9th October with
Mr. Vonderahe what the object of that meeting was? He wanted to
know about her investments.

Yes, and her property? And her property.

This money had come into your house, the 216, and as you told us
on Saturday was causing you anxiety? But I did not know it remained
in my house.

That would be one of the very reasons why you should make inquiry
of them, would it not? When I looked in the trunk it was not there,
and I could not account for it. How do I know what the woman had
done with it? She went out every day and met her relations and met
friends. She used to be out the best part of the day. A person
does not want much assistance with regard to pounds, shillings, and
pence.

I will put this last question about it. I will give you an oppor-
tunity of making any explanation? How can I explain something I do
not know?

Listen. If you had nothing to conceal, what I am suggesting to
you is that you would have made inquiry as to what had become of this
money, and would have informed the relatives or the police? We can
all be wise after an event.

On the same day, the 14th, it is in the afternoon that you make
another search in the bedroom, is it not? About noon.

Did you commence when you found the 3 in the drawer in the
fold of the paper in the drawer that is the drawer you had already
turned out? We had only lifted the things out. We did not take the
paper lining out.

And the 2 10s. in the bag which all the time had been hanging
on the post of the bed? Yes, I believe Mrs. Seddon had looked inside
that bag, but she did not feel in the outside pocket of it the close-
fitting pocket. She said she had looked in the bag.

Where was your family on the evening of the 14th September?
I don't know. I was in the office.

Do you not know where they went? Yes; they went to a theatre.

Your wife? Yes.

Your father? I am not sure he went. I know my sister went and
the wife went. The wife did not want to go.

That was the night, of course, that the body was taken away?
Yes, they went before the body was taken away.

You remained at home? Yes.

While they were at the theatre and you were left at home the body
was taken away? Yes, the undertaker sent for it.



Evidence for Defence.

Frederick H. Seddon

Just let me ask you some further questions about the cash-box.
You were in Court, of course, when Mr. Hook gave his evidence? I have
heard his statement from the beginning.

You know that he says there was 380 in gold and a large sum in
notes? I believe he always said there was 420 till he came into this
Court.

This is in answer to my learned friend in cross-examination. " 380
she told me. Q. 40 in gold had been got rid of since 1906? " he
says, "Yes, that is right. Q. Then she had 380 in gold and a
large eum in bank notes? A. That is right." If this woman had this
money in the house I don't think she would have gone away for four
days' holiday to the seaside and leave all that money in the house.

You are speaking of August, 1911? Yes. August Bank Holiday,
when she went away for four days.

By August of 1911 the greater part of these bank notes had already
been dealt with? Yes, but still, according to the prosecution, there would
be some money there in the box.

There would have been gold? Yes.

You know about all these notes having been dealt with. I am
putting to you that these notes came out of the cash box? I don't
know where they came from.

Have you any suggestions to make as to where they did come from,
if they did not come from the cash -box? No, I never queried the
matter.

You know the statement has been made, not only by Mr. Hook but
by Mr. Vonderahe about the notes in the cash-box? Yes, they have
seen more than I have seen.

I see Mr. Vonderahe says he saw this cash-box and that it had
bags of money and a roll of bank notes in it. Do you remember that?
Yes.

The roll of bank notes at the bottom of the cash -box? Yes.

Supposing that the gold and the notes were there, according to the
sworn statement of these two witnesses, can you in any way account for
the disappearance of it? I cannot. I have got a perfectly clear con-
science on that. I believe Mr. Vonderahe himself mentioned something
to me at the interview that there was money in her trunk. I forget
whether I told him how much I found there or not I am not sure.

You know you have told us that when Mr. Hook was leaving she had
asked you to take care of the cash-box? Yes.

First of all, let me see what were your relations with Mr. Hook
when he was being turned out. Do you remember saying this " Miss
Barrow has put all her affairs in my hands"? No, I never said that.

Is that untrue? Yes. All her affairs were not in my hands.

Did Mr. Hook ask you if she had put her money into your hands?
Certainly not. It was not mentioned.

Is that an invention of Mr. Hook's? Yes, positively.

An untruth deliberately told by him? It is an untruth.

Did he say to you, " I will defy you and a regiment like you to get
her money in your hands ' ' ? Certainly not ; there was no mention of it.

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Trial of the Seddons.

Frederick H. Seddon

Did you say that you did not want her money? No, it was not
mentioned.

That you were going to look after her interests? No. I said, " 1
am looking after her interests as the landlord." I said, "You are not
my tenant. I have told Miss Barrow to go, and she does not want to
go, and she said she had given you notice and you will not go, and she
has asked me to give you notice." He said if he went he would take
the boy with him.

Do I understand you that all this conversation which I have just
been putting to you which Mr. Hook has been deposing to in the box,
and upon which he has been cross-examined, is all h,n invention of Mr.
Hook? Yes.

Now, on this occasion, when Mr. Hook was going, according to your
statement, she asked you to take care of her cash-box, and said there
was 30 or 35 in it? Yes.

You know, do you not, that at least 165 in notes, dating 1901 to
1910, have been traced to Miss Barrow? Yes, I have heard it.

And subsequently traced to your wife and yourself, and you have
admitted it? Yes subsequently traced that she cashed them for Miss
Barrow.

Yes? There is no trace that they were in my possession.

Not traced to your possession because the notes have been dealt
with? Yes.

They have been in your possession? But without having the money
either.

Do you represent that when she asked you about this cash-box she
said there was only 30 to 35 in i7 Yes.

After what you know? Yes.

And what we know about the notes? I do. That is what she told
ne. Perhaps that is why she did not come back again.

You were willing to take care of it if she counted it out in your
pj essence? So that I could give her a receipt for the correct amount
and she could hold the key. I did not know the woman she was a
perfect sti anger to me I was not going to be let into a trap like that
by taking possession of a box when I did not know how much it con-
tained.

When you said that, instead of counting the money out and getting
a receipt for it as you expected that you would do, she took the box
upstairs? She went upstairs again. She said she would go up and
make sure.

Make sure of what? How much she had got in it.

Why should not she go upstairs to do that? Because she was not sure ;
she said 30 to 35.

She had got the box with her? Yes, but she thought 1 was going
to take the box just as it was and ask no questions how much it con-
tained.

Why should she open the box there and then? I am sure I could
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Evidence for Defence.

Frederick H. Seddon

not enter into the woman's thoughts. I could not read the woman's
mind.

There was no reason why she should not have opened it there and
then, taken the money out and counted it? I did not see any reason
why she should not, if I was to be trusted.

The box was taken away upstairs by her? And she locks herself
in her bedroom.

And, as I understand your story, that is the last you see of the
cash-box until after her death? Yes, I waited some time and then went
out. I had got my business to attend to, and it appears that Hook
had gone when I came in. It was the day that Hook left.

I want to ask you one or two questions about what happened on the
14th at the interview with Mr. Smith and Mr. Taylor. You know what
Mr. Taylor has said about this, " A little after nine o'clock on the 14th
I saw some gold." You know what I am speaking of now? Yes, and
I am supposed to have had her money early in the morning.

" I think the last collector went out of the office certainly before
seven o'clock." That is what Mr. Taylor says? Yes, possibly.

Then he says this " I heard the chink of money and I just turned
my head, when I had a side view of Mr. Seddon 's desk and I saw
several piles of sovereigns and a good little heap besides. Q. About how
much money in gold? A. Well, at the time I estimated it at over
200." Then he is asked what was done. " Can you say whether that
was part of the collectors' money or not? A. No, I should say not.
Q. What was done with the collectors' money when it was received?
A. The collectors' money was put in the till which Mr. Seddon kept
in the cupboard. And he personally packed these sovereigns into four
bags." I think it becomes quite clear from another question. " At the
time you saw this quantity of gold that you estimated at 200, where
was the till? A. In the cupboard. Q. Did you see what the prisoner
did with this quantity of sovereigns? A. Yes, he packed it into four
bags. Q. And what did he do with it then? A. He took them up,
and he held three under his arm. He took up the other one in his hand
aud turned round facing myself and Mr. Smith, my fellow assistant,
put one bag in front of Mr. Smith and said, ' Here, Smith, here is your
wages.' He picked it up again and he put it into the safe. He put
the four bags into the safe." You heard that you heard that evidence
given? Yes; the statement is absurd. In the first place, the chink of
money takes place every Thursday, so there is nothing extraordinary
in it. When a man who has got his back turned to me, when he hears
the chink of money for him to turn round would be a most unusual
thing for him to do. Then, further, for him to have observed so much
actually having to turn in his chair and stand watching me doing this,
if he had done that I should have told him to get on with his accounts.

Are you suggesting that this is an invention of Mr. Taylor? I do
not know what you like to call it, but the statement is exaggerated.
There is no occasion for the man to turn round at the chink of money,
to begin with.

You know what the point is. Nobody knows better than you, Mr.

~ '""""* 205



Trial of the Seddons.

Frederick H. Seddon

Seddon, what the point of this conversation is. You understand the
point of it, do you not? Yes, but that is something that did not happen.
He might have turned round and had a glance and then went on with
his accounts.

The importance of the difference between your story and his story is
this. He says that the collectors' money had been put into the till in
the cupboard? Certainly not.

That is his story? He is guessing he is absolutely guessing.

He says, further, that after nine o'clock at night, when he heard
the chink of money, he turned round and saw what he says were sovereigns?
No.

You say that is untrue? Yes, certainly. He has been reading the
papers.

He says, further, that he saw you count the sovereigns and put them
into four bags? Well, how could he see with his back turned to me?
Look at the plan and see the man's position. Smith might overlook me,
but Taylor would have to turn round and look at me and neglect his
duties, and it is getting very late at night and there is no time to lose.
It is not likely that I should bring money from the top of the house
down to the bottom stolen money, as suggested by the prosecution
and count it in the presence of my assistants. I had all day if I wanted
to count money, from early morning until nine o'clock at night.

Did you say, jokingly, " Here, Smith, here's your wages "? Yes.

Then part of it is not an invention? No, it is not the first time
that I had done that either.

And did you take up the four bags and put them into the safe?
No, I had that sliding till I kept that on the drawer, and I pulled
another drawer out. I always have that till on this drawer when the
men are paying in their cash, and I used to count up at the finish I
used to ask them what the total is by the superintendent's sheet, and
then I would start counting the cash. The chink of money is a common
thing on post days.

No doubt, but if the money had been put away in the till in the
cupboard? But it had not been put away in the till in the cupboard.
The till was out on the drawer in the office.

If the money had been put away in the till in the cupboard the chink
of money would naturally draw his attention, would it not? It had
been in the cupboard. I took it out of the cupboard to count it.

Had you worked long with Mr. Taylor and Mr. Smith? No, they
had both been latterly introduced into my office as assistants ; they were
both practically new men to me. Mr. Taylor had been a superintendent
and he had been reduced.

What do you call practically new how long had they been working
with you? A month or two. Smith had been an agent under me.

How long had Smith been working with you? How long had you
known him? I cannot say exactly about twelve months or something
like that, but he had only been in my office a month or two either
of them. They were practically new men to me in that capacity as
assistants. My other men had been promoted.

Do you know that Mr. Smith has said also that in the evening, he
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Evidence for Defence.

Frederick H. Seddon

says about 8.30, as far as he can remember, he saw loose sovereigns and
half-sovereigns? That is right, there were loose sovereigns and half-
sovereigns. There was 99 altogether in gold. These men never
thought of this until they had seen that there was 200 missing in the
paper. They never said a word of this at the inquest. They had all got
200 on the brain by reading it in the paper.

Do you know that Mr. Smith says definitely that there was neither
silver nor copper on the table when he saw these sovereigns? He must
have seen both if he could overlook me.

What? He was this side (describing) he could see me.

You know quite well the importance of it. Listen and answer the
question ? Yes.

You see you have said in your evidence, in explanation of this
incident, that the money that was being dealt with was one bag of gold
and that the rest of it was silver? Oh, the gold was in two bags. It
was in one bag at the finish to go to the bank, and the balance was in
another bag and put in the safe. There were three bags of silver
there were four bags altogether.

Your explanation of this incident is that it was the money that was
being dealt with either from the bag or which you had taken out in order
to put with the other money of the company? It was the company's
money and my own.

And that the rest, the silver and the copper, was all there, too?
No, there was very little or no copper.

Well, leave out the copper. The silver was there, too? Yes, there
was 15 17s. 6d.

So that the difference between you and Mr. Taylor and Mr. Smith
is that you are putting this incident of the money as having taken place
with regard to all the collectors' money that was brought in. ? Certainly.

What they are saying is that that had all been dealt with and
disposed of? It had not, no.

Listen. And that you were simply then dealing with heaps of gold
and no silver and no copper? No absurd. It was the company's
money and my own. It is not feasible a man is going to do a thing like
that.

What do you mean? The prosecution are suggesting that I am
dealing with the deceased woman's gold ; that I should bring it down
from the top of the house to the bottom into the office in the presence
of my assistants and count it up? Is it feasible?*

I do not want to argue with you, but you know that .sometimes
people do very foolish things? Well, I am not a degenerate. That
would make it out that I was a greedy, inhuman monster.

What? That I am a greedy, inhuman monster, or something with
a very degenerate mind, to commit a vile crime such as the prosecution
suggest, and then bringing the dead woman's money down and counting
it in the presence of my two assistants and flouting it like that. The
suggestion is scandalous. I would have all day to count the money.

Now, let me ask you about what happened the next day. In point



* In this and the following two answers Seddon exhibited the first sign of indig-
nation and heat that he had shown in his long cross-examination. ED.

207



Trial of the Seddons.

Frederick H. Seddon

of fact you had paid in, on the 15th September, to your bank 35
more in gold? Over and above the company's money I had paid in
35 to my own current account.

Did you, on the same day, pay 30 in gold to the savings bank?
I did that is 65.

And did you, on the 18th September, pay 90 in gold for the
three Building Society shares? Yes, I took 100 down to put into the
Building Society towards my mortgage.

All this time, of course, you had your banking account, the London
and Provincial? Yes, but there was a good balance there as it was.

And you had money on deposit with the bank? Yes.

And had money on deposit in the Post Office Savings Bank? Tea.

You had paid in so small a sum as 30 to get the interest on deposit ?
Yes, I put a little in each.

And the 70 you had paid in which was the balance of the 116
you had drawn out of the London and Westminster Bank? Yes.

In order to earn interest on the money on deposit? Yes.

So that the money should not lie idle and unremunerative ? That
is it.

On 15th September you went to the jeweller, Mr. Wright? Yes,
I had to pass there when I went to see my sister off to Wolverhampton.

How far was it from your house? How far? A quarter of an hour
or twenty minutes' walk.

There is no doubt that on 15th September, the day after this woman's
death, you did go to the jeweller's and ask for the diamond ring that is
exhibited to be made larger? No doubt whatever.

To fit your middle finger? To fit this finger.

So there can be no doubt about what I am putting to you. What I
am suggesting is that you had taken this ring after her death, and were
having it altered to fit your finger? I had it on the little finger I had
got two diamond rings and a curb ring. I wore the two diamond rings
on these two fingers because 1 did not want to interfere with the ring
during Miss Barrow's during the time Miss Barrow was with me. I did
not want to hurt her feelings. I wore it on the little finger during
the lifetime, and on the 15th September I had it enlarged to fit this finger.

As I understand, what you have told us was Miss Barrow had ob-
jected to pay any costs to the solicitors in respect of the annuity! She
said she had no money to spare.

That was in January of 1911? I showed her the bill I showed her
the two bills tremendous costs.

According to your story, you told us on Saturday she gave you the
diamond ring? Yes, she brought it down.

Instead of money? Yes. The amount I paid on her behalf to Mr.
Knight was 4 13s.

It is not till the day after her death, on the 15th, that you took the
ring to the jeweller? No, that is right.

For this purpose? Right.

Did you take a watch there on the same day? The same day.

You know that this ring that we have just been speaking of was
found in your safe when you were arrested. You were not wearing it.
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Evidence for Defence.

Frederick H. Seddon

although it had been altered to fit your finger. You know that, do you
not? I had not had it on that day the day I was arrested. I did not
always wear the three rings.

Now, let me ask you about the watch. On the same day you went
on a second occasion to the jewellers? Yes.

That was Friday, the day after the death? Yes, that was the time
I took the watch on the evening of the same day.

Yes, with your wife? Yes, we had been to see my sister off at the
station at Euston.

But you had been twice. You had not seen your sister off both
times? No, I am talking about the second time when I went to the
jeweller's with the watch when I had been to see my sister off. I had
called in before.

You had been to the jeweller's again? I did not go especially to the
jeweller's on that morning. I called in as I was passing.

When you went about the ring it was not because you had been
seeing your sister off? Oh, no, no. I was merely passing.

Then in the evening you went with your wife, when you had been
to see your sister off? I told her I was having the ring enlarged. She
said, " What about my watch? I would like it to take on my holidays,"



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