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Did you do it for that purpose? The flies were nearly all gone. I
did it for convenience.

You said before that you were bothered with them, so you put them
all four into one plate? Yes.

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL Did you say that the flies were all gone?
There were not so many flies in the room.

A good many had died? Yes.

I suggest to you, having the two on the mantelpiece and one having
gone ? That only left one on the mantelpiece.

It did not interfere with the two on the drawers? No, it did not
interfere with the two on the drawers.

Why did you interfere with the two on the drawers? Because I put
them altogether to save having so many saucers about.
250



Evidence for Defence.

Margaret A. Seddon

Do you know Thorley's shop in the Stroud Green Road? No, I have
never seen Thorley's shop.

Do you know Meacher's second shop in the Stroud Green Road?
No ; I don't know Meacher's second shop.

Mr. MARSHALL HALL Thorley's shop is in a different place altogether.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL Just round the corner.

Mr. MARSHALL HALL Crouch Hill.

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL Now, I want to ask you about what
happened during this illness. The 2nd September was the first day she
was in bed during the whole time she was with you? Except for her
bilious attacks once a month she was bad once a month.

She used to have sick headaches or something of that kind? No,
she used to be sick a proper sick, bilious attack.

About once a month? Every month, yes.

During the whole time from the 2nd September you had been in
attendance? Yes, that is quite right.

Had you been up all night with her at all? I got up in the middle
of the night.

Often? Once or twice.

Do you mean once or twice during the night, or once or twice during
the time? No, during the night.

Was Ernie Grant sleeping with her during the whole time? Yes,
it was Ernie who used to call me.

Did she say anything about her personal belongings on the llth,
the day when the will was made ? It was on the Sunday that I think she
first mentioned it.

What did she say? She wanted to know if she could have a will
made out as regards the furniture for the boy and for the girl also some
jewellery she had.

By Mr. JUSTICE BUCKNILL That she could have a will made out?
For Ernest and Hilda Grant.

For furniture and ? Jewellery. Of course, I told her I couldn't

give her any information on it, so I said I would tell Mr. Seddon. So
I went down and told Mr. Seddon what she had said, so he said he
wouldn't be bothered just at that time ; he was busy I think in his office ;
in fact, I don't think he went up at all on the Sunday, he went up on
the Monday.

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL You heard the will read? Yes.

Do you know anything more about it than what you have told us?
No, none whatever.

I am going to ask you about the 13th, that is the Thursday ; you
know the day I am speaking of? The day Miss Barrow died.

The day before? That is the Wednesday.

She died on the morning of the 14th? Yes.

She was worse than she had been, wasn't she? She seemed rather
weaker the diarrhoea but she was not so sick. That is what I told
the doctor.

Pains in the stomach? Stomach, yes.

That had been going on then for a pretty long time? On and off.

From 2nd September? On and off during the time she was ill.

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Trial of the Seddons.

Margaret A. Seddon

When the doctor left did you think there was any fear of her death
within twenty-four hours? None whatever.

Did she get worse after the doctor left? I never noticed.

Did she continue to complain about pains in her stomach? You
see, I was not with Miss Barrow, you must remember, all day long.

You were with her in the evening? No, not until twelve o'clock.
At about nine or ten I gave her a dose of medicine about ten o'clock
and I never seen her then till twelve o'clock.

Let us see what happened in the evening. Your husband went out to
the theatre? Yes, that is right.

You were at home? Yes.

You were looking after her? Yes, I was.

She complained a good deal, didn't she, before your husband came
home? No, not that I know of.

Didn't she say that night, "I am dying"? Oh, yes, that was at
twelve o'clock ; I thought you were referring to earlier than that. That
night at twelve o'clock she said, " I am dying."

Was she complaining a good deal ? Well, I had been up on and

off to see her, putting flannels on her stomach.

Before your husband came back? Yes.

So she was complaining a good deal? Yes.

Of bad pains in the stomach? It was nothing unusual to hear Miss
Barrow complaining all the time she was ill; in fact, she would always
want you to sit and be fanning her all the time. Of course, I couldn't
always be doing that.

But on this night of the 13th she was worse than she had been?
After twelve o'clock.

You knew from the time the doctor had come in the morning she
was worse than she had been? No, she did not seem any worse after the
doctor had been up to midnight.

No, but when the doctor came in the morning of the 13th, I think
you have already told me he found her rather worse on the morning of
the 13th? Rather worse, no. He did not find her rather worse
somewhere about the same.

Mr. MARSHALL HALL " I found the diarrhoea worse but no complaint
of the sickness; the sickness was not worse, but only the diarrhoea."

The ATTORNEY- GENERAL He said he found her rather worse.

Mr. MARSHALL HALL The diarrhoea was worse.

Mr. JUSTICE BUCKNILL Let me read my note. I am much obliged
to you, but I think I would rather read my own note on this part. I will
tell you what I have. " On the 13th the diarrhoea had come on again.
She did not seem to be in much trouble. I gave her a mixture. She
had a little return of the sickness. I gave her a chalky mixture the
strength was about the same. She was weaker on account of the diarrhoea.
I saw Mrs. Seddon on that day, and I simply said Miss Barrow was worse
and that I would send her a mixture to be taken after each motion. I
gave no diet instructions on that day. She was in a little danger, but
not in a critical condition." I think that is what he said.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL Those are the words as near as possible.
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Evidence for Defence.

Margaret A. Seddon

The only words left out are immaterial, because your lordship has the
actual words, " She was rather worse."

Mr. JUSTICE BUCKNILL It is pretty accurate, is it not?

The ATTORNEY- GENERAL Yes, " I simply told her that I thought the
patient was worse, and I would send her up a diarrhoea mixture." (To
the witness) You remember that? Yes, Dr. Sworn sent it for the
diarrhoea, and not for the sickness.

Dr. Sworn told you that he thought the patient was worse. You
have heard what the doctor says about it? Well, you see, I don't
remember. I cannot remember everything that happened.

You see, this lady had been ill in your house for a considerable time?
Yes, I know.

And the doctor, coming on the morning of the 13th, and saying that
he found her rather worse, and the diarrhoea being rather worse, did
that alarm you at all? No, because, you know, Miss Barrow had been ill
all the time all the fourteen days.

But he told you ? She had worse attacks than that.

But he told you when he came that morning that he found her worse ?
I don't remember.

But he certainly did not find her better, did he? Only for the
sickness ; that stopped. She had not the sickness. She had diarrhoea.

And did he tell you she was getting weaker, and that he found her
weaker? No, he said she was in a weak condition.

Then, she had the pains on and off during the whole time after he
left? During the day.

During the day he left? Yes.

And diarrhoea, I suppose? She had the diarrhoea and these pains in
the bowels.

Did the diarrhoea get worse? No, not as I noticed.

Before your husband came had she said to you, "I am dying"?
Not to me, no.

To whom did she say it? You see, I was standing at the front door,
waiting for my husband coming in. This would be about twelve o'clock.
I heard her shout. The windows were open, and I heard her shout,
"Come quick; I'm dying," so, of course, I went upstairs. I asked my
sister-in-law to come with me, but she did not care to come at first. Then
she did come ; she followed me up after.

Then you went up and found her very ill? No; she was just the
same as she usually was, but she had bad pains in her stomach, and she
wanted to be sick.

Had you ever heard her eay before, "Come quick, I'm dying"?
No.

Rather an alarming statement for a patient who had been ill for a
number of days, and was getting worse? No; Miss Barrow would always
be calling, and sometimes I would never answer to her calls, you see.

Did you tell your husband about it when he came in? Yes, I did.

Did you smile at it? Well, I have a usual way of smiling at almost
everything, I think. I cannot help it. It is my ways. No matter how
serious anything was I think I would smile ; I cannot help it.

Do I understand that your smile was merely from your habit. You

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Trial of the Seddons.

Margaret A. Seddon

did not mean him to think there was no cause for anxiety? No. It is
always my way always.

A way that he would understand? He knows my ways.

Then when you told him that she had said she was dying, and that
you had heard her calling this out, you didn't mean him to think lightly
of it? Of course, you must remember I had been up in the meantime and
attended to Miss Barrow once what she wanted after hearing her call
out that she was dying.

I want to understand what you meant your husband to understand ?
Yes.

You told him when he came in that Miss Barrow had called out she
was dying? Yes.

He asked you whether she was? And I said " No."

And smiled ? And smiled ; it is my usual way ; I cannot help it.

But you smiled at the idea of her dying? No, I did not smile at the
idea of her dying.

Listen to the question. You meant him to understand that in your
opinion she was not dying? She was not dying, certainly. I never wish
anybody dead. I thought too much of Miss Barrow. I waited hand and
foot on her. I did all I possibly could do to get her better.

Did you go to bed at all that night ? On and off.

How long was it after your husband had come in that you first went
up to her? You see, when Mr. Seddon came in from the theatre, he told
my sister-in-law about the dispute over 6d. That a man had given
him the wrong change, and two or three other words passed between
them, and then I think Ernest called out that Chickie wanted me, and
then, of course, my husband and all three of us went up together.

Was that immediately after he came in? No, it was a few minutes
after.

That is what I am putting to you. That is the first time? I know
he told me not to come up ; he told me to lay down and rest.

Was there a doctor living almost opposite your house in Tollington
Park? Not opposite, I don't think.

Very near by? Somewhere lower down.

Yes, but quite close? Yes.

By Mr. JUSTICE BUCK^LL In the same road? There are two or
three, I think.

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL There are certainly several? Yes, there
is, at the bottom end of Tollington Park.

I do not want to go through the story at length. You went up alto-
gether four times that night? Yes.

Four times, counting the first from the time your husband came in?
Yes.

They would not include the times you had gone up before? No.

She certainly was worse that night than she had ever been? Yes,
she was worse that night than she had been before.

You say you do not remember, or you do not know whether your
husband gave her brandy or not? He gave her brandy, but I don't know
whether it was that time he went up or the last time.

You did see him give her brandy ? Yes ; there was not much in the
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Evidence for Defence.

Margaret A. Seddon

bottle. I remember him saying to Miss Barrow that it would have to
last her all the night, so he only gave her half of it.

And did he leave the rest there by her? Yes, on the commode where
her bottles are.

Was it gone in the morning? It was gone, yes.

She had drunk it? Yes; this must have been the time when she was
out of bed.

Was it about 2 o'clock in the morning that Ernie was sent away
for the last time from his bed to his room? Not the last, I don't think
not 2 o'clock.

By Mr. JUSTICE BUCKNILL What time? It could not have been,
because we didn't go to bed until between half -past and 2.

Tell the jury when Ernie was sent away to his bed the last time?
It would be between 3 and 4 just before she went off into this sleep.

Just when she went off to sleep? Yes.

Ernie was sent away to his bed? It was after she was lifted up off
the floor.

That follows. Ernie was there when she was lifted up? Yes.

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL Did you say at the inquest, " Miss Barrow
died between 6 and 7 a.m. on 14th September; I and my husband were
present ; we were the only people in the room ; both of us had been
hanging on and off in the room. The boy did not sleep in the room after
2 o'clock"? That must have been a mistake; that was not what was
meant. We did not go to bed till after that took place, and that was
the first time Mr. Seddon told Ernie to go to bed.

You did say it, because you signed the paper? I must have said it,
certainly.

Mr. JUSTICE BUCKNILL " I did say before the coroner that the boy
did not sleep in the room."

Mr. MARSHALL HALL It says in my copy "bed."

Mr. JUSTICE BUCKNILL Then the copy that is given me is wrong. My
copy says "room."

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL It doesn't make any difference.

By Mr. JUSTICE BUCKNILL " I did say before the coroner that the
boy did not sleep in the bed after 2 o'clock, but that is a mistake"?
That will be a mistake, because, you see, that would be the first time my
husband told him to go to his own bed.

Because 2 o'clock was the first time? Yes.

Not the last? No, it would not be the last.

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL You put it at between 3 and 4 o'clock
when he left the room for the last time? For the last time, yes.

And is it right that from that time until the death you were in the
bedroom ? Yes.

In Miss Barrow's bedroom? Yes. I sat in the chair.

And was your husband outside? Standing by the door.

It was open, as we have heard? Yes, that is quite right.

I think you have said that he was smoking and reading? Yes.

You knew by that time, after you had been up four times during that
night, that she was certainly worse than she had been ; weaker? Yes, she
was weaker, certainly.

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Trial of the Seddons.

Margaret A. Seddon

You had been called up the last time by Ernie telling you she wa
out of bed? Yes.

And you came up and found her sitting there, as you described. I
don't want to go through it again? That is quite right, yes.

You had never seen that before? Previous to that my husband stood
outside the door before we lifted her into bed. She wanted the com-
mode, and I helped her on to that, and I called my husband back into
the room; and we got her into bed.

I thought you had found her sitting up when you went up? Ye6,
that is quite right in a sitting position.

And the boy trying to hold her up? Yes.

And the boy was very frightened?

By Mr. JUSTICE BUCKNILL When she was sitting on the floor did she
appear to be in great pain? I couldn't tell you. She wanted to use the
commode, and I helped her.

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL She was complaining all that night of
bad pains in her stomach? Yes, in her stomach, which I attended to all
the night through.

I want to understand how long it was after you were there in the
room, sitting in the basket chair, before she began to do what you
describe snoring? Well, I couldn't give you a stated time.

No, I do not want the stated time, but I want to get some idea of
the time? I couldn't; you see I was tired and sleepy myself; I kept
on dozing, you know.

Was she sleeping peacefully for any length of time so far as you
know? She seemed to be in a nice just a quiet sleep.

There was no reason why your husband should not go down to bed,
was there? My husband wanted me to go to bed, you see.

You were sitting dozing in the room? Yes, he thought that she
might sleep like that all night for the rest of the morning.

The next day was his ? Office day.

So far as I follow what you have told us there was no reason why
he should not go to bed if you were going to sit up there and watch?
He said he would not leave me in the room alone.

That is the explanation ? And he kept going down and seeing if the
baby was all right.

By Mr. JUSTICE BUCKNILL You have heard people snore before, I dare
say. Did you ever hear anybody snore like Miss Barrow? It was an
ordinary kind of snoring ; it seemed to be coming from the throat.

It didn't frighten you? No, I never dreamt anything was wrong like
that.

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL As I understand you, there was nothing
alarming about her snoring? No.

An ordinary kind of snore ? She seemed to be snoring from her throat.

I want to understand it. Was it an ordinary kind of snoring or
not? I don't know what you would call it; it was snoring from her
throat ordinary snoring.

You have heard people snore? Yes, but everybody don't snore alike.

Was it that kind of snoring that you heard? Yes.

Nothing to alarm you? Nothing whatever.
256



Evidence for Defence.

Margaret A. Seddon

Then you must have been very shocked when you found she was
dead? Yes, I was.

Were you sure she was dead ? I really could not believe it until my
husband proved by the lifting of her eyelids that she was dead.

All that happened almost immediately, according to the story you
have told us? I think she stopped drawing her breath; she did not
breathe.

Follow me. Was that the first thing that called your attention? The
stopping of her breathing ? Then your husband called attention to it ?
Yes, and he lifted the eyelid.

Immediately? Yes, and I told you the remark that he passed.

By Mr. JUSTICE BUCKNILL " Good God, she's dead "? Yes.

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL You couldn't believe it? No, I didn't;
I couldn't believe it.

Did you ask for a doctor? My husband went straight away to Dr.
Sworn.

How far off is he? Highbury.

About half an hour, I think, we have been told? Yes, I expect it is.

Now, I want to understand this from you. Do you mean that whilst
you were sitting there, there was nothing to alarm you until you saw
that she had stopped breathing? Positively.

No indication of any kind before that? No, it was the first sick
room I had ever been in in my life.

I suggest to you that that was a very good reason why you should
have wanted a doctor under the circumstances? No.

Because you had so little experience? I never gave the doctor
a thought.

You never gave the doctor a thought? No, because I knew Dr.
Sworn would come in the next morning. I never knew Miss Barrow
was dying.

According to what you said, you went down below and saw Mary
Chater, and you said you thought she had passed away. You were not
sure? No; Mr. Seddon, you see, had gone to see Dr. Sworn.

What? I expected Dr. Sworn to come back with Mr. Seddon.

To see whether she was really dead or not? Yes, I suppose that
would be it.

Had you touched her at all had you felt her? No; I don't know
whether I put my handkerchief up to her or not.

You cannot remember? Whether it was before or after Mr. Seddon
came back.

According to what you told us, you know it could not have been
before; if he said, "Good God, she's dead," and with that he hurried off
to Dr. Sworn, and you were in doubt whether, or, at any rate, you
were not certain that she was dead, you couldn't have tied up her jaw
before that, could you? No, I do not think so.

Do you think you tied it up after your husband came back? I
don't know whether it was when Mrs. Rutt came; I cannot remember.

Either when Mrs. Rutt came or when your husband came back you
did it? We went up together, you see.

Then the search for the money started? Yes.

K 357



Trial of the Seddons.

Margaret A. Seddon

Did your husband say he was going to look for the money 1 No,
he never said what he was going to do.

Did he tell you what he wanted the keys of the trunk for? No.

Was the key of the cash box on that same ring as the key of the
trunk? I believe so.

Whilst the keys are being looked for, let me ask you this. You told
us that 4 10s. was found in the cash box? Yes.

Did you see where in the cash box the money was found? In the
tray part.

Do you mean inside one of the little receptacles in the tray? Yes.

And nothing on the top of the tray? Not that I saw.

Were you standing looking at your husband? No, we were by the
bed; we were doing Miss Barrow.

Did you see him actually find the money? Yes, he put the box on
the bed.

Was the body on the other side of the bed? The body was this
side (indicating).

The body was the one side and he put the cash box on the other?
Yes.

Did you see how the money was found did you see yourself whether
it was found loose or wrapped up? No, it was in the bag.

Did you see your husband take the bag out? Yes.

So far as you know, up to the afternoon that was all the money
that had been found? Yes.

You knew that she had 10 on 2nd September? Yes, that is right.

And she had not been out; I mean she had not been able to spend
any money? No, only what she gave me to spend.

How much -was that? I cannot count it up.

I mean it must have been some small amounts? Yes; I think there
was Valentine's beef juice.

Valentine's beef juice? Yes, 2s. lOd.

And did she give you gold or silver? Silver.

She did not give you any gold at all? No.

Was she taking the Valentine's beef juice long? No, she had only
two bottles.

About how many days had she been taking it? I could not say
exactly; I couldn't say how many days.

Was it several days before she died? Oh yes.

That, I understand from you, was given in cold water? Yes.

It did not require any particular preparation, did it? Yes, it had
to be mixed.

It had to be mixed? Yes, it had to be mixed.

You took a spoonful out of the bottle which we have seen produced?
Yes

We know from what you have told us that this was given in cold
water? Yes, cold water, by the doctor's orders.

How often a day did she used to take this? Only once.

When was it taken? In the afternoon.

The kitchen next to Miss Barrow's room had a gas stove, and that
was used for heating flannels? Yes.
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Evidence for Defence.

Margaret A. Seddon

Was it also used for boiling water? No, I never boiled water
only just to heat the flannels.

It was a great surprise to you, was it not, that only 4 10s. was
found in the cash box? Yes.

You naturally thought there would be a great deal more there?
I thought there was certainly more.

As far as you knew, the 216 would still be there? As far as I
knew.

And, as far as you knew, at any rate, a good part of the gold that
you had brought her in exchange for the notes, according to your state-
ment, should have been there? Yes, it should have been there.

And also the 10 in gold that was paid to her month by month by
your husband? Yes.

And I suppose I may take it that it was rather a shock to you to
find there was not the money there? Well, my husband told me to
search the place to see if there was not more.

Did you know where she had put the gold which she got on 2nd
September? No; you see, I was not always in her room.

Did you tell your husband you were rather surprised at this small
amount of money being found there? No, I never mentioned it.

Did he say anything to you about it? No, only he said it was funny
what had become of it.

Did you tell him then that you had changed a number of notes into
gold for her? No.

Never said a word to him about it? No, not a word.

Why not? Because I didn't think it was necessary. My husband
didn't tell me everything. I never dreamt to tell him anything at all
about it.

But, you see, you expected to find a considerable sum of money
in gold in that cash box, as you told me? Yes, but I was not responsible
for what Miss Barrow had done. She used to go out. I was not
responsible; I was not her keeper. I never knew what she done with
her money.

Do you mean to say you never had any conversation with your
husband at this time about the money that ought to have been in the
box ? No ; I only said ' ' It seems strange ; whatever has she done with
it? "

Did he say anything to you about the 216? No, he only said
he wondered whatever she had done with it.

Or about the 10 that had been paid her on the 2nd September?
No, I don't remember that being mentioned.

Can you tell us is that the bunch of keys (handed) ? I know them
being on the ring. My husband has not got a ring like that.



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