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clerks.

818. He was the poll-clerk, I believe ? — Yes.

819. Was there any other gentleman acting as a check-clerk besides yourself
and Baker ? — I saw no one else.

820. I believe part of the duty of a check-clerk is now arid then to send off
despatches with the result of the last 10 minutes, and so on ? — Yes.

821. Had you acted as check-clerk before at previous elections? — Oh, yes,
several times.

822. And on the same side ? — Invariably.

823. Did you fulfil that part of the duty of a check-clerk in sending off
despatches ? — I sent no despatches myself.

824. Did nobody at your part of the hustings send off despatches with the
state of the poll r — I believe there was.

825. Have you any doubt of it ? — No.

826. Have you anything more to say in answer to the question ? — ^There
-were people employed to take the despatches from the hustings ; there were
people there to do so.

827. From whom did they receive the despatches they took? — I do not
know.

828. Did you observe? — ^They took them chiefly from the poll-clerk, I
think.

829. Do not let us have any thinking ; it is not so long since you told us it
was part of the duty of the check-clerk to send off despatches of the state of the
poll } did you do so? — I sent no one.

830. Did you send off pieces of paper you tore out of your book to give the
information? — No, I did not.

83 1 . Do you mean to say you kept your book entire to the end ? — I kept the
book to myself.

832. Did you not take extracts from it? — No, I did not.

833. Did you not tear the leaves out ? — No.

834. From whom did the people get the information that they took ? — I do
not know who they got the information from.

835* Just mention one of those who went ? — A person of the name of Hum-
bles. No, I am wrong there, I believe ; Marston, I think, is the name.

836. Committee.'] He took the despatches ? — I think he did. ^

837. Mr. Taibot.] Did you, from time to time, communicate witlr him ? — No,
I did not.

838. Were the despatches conveyed on paper ? — Not that I am aware of.

839. How came you to know the fact that he did take despatches ? — I saw
4)im ; I believe he had a book, a small book.

840. Was he there all the time ? — Not all the time.

E3 841. What



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26 March 1841.



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30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Thomas Osborne. 841^ What means had he, so far as you know, of ascertaining who had polled
gTJ J~r in his absence ? — I do not know where he got his information.
s 1 arc 1841. g^2 At previous elections, I believe, you have acted

Mr. Cockburn objected to anything relating to previous elections.

843. Mr. Talbot.'] When you have acted as check-clerk, and you say you
have acted so repeatedly, has it not been part of your duty repeatedly to send
off the despatches in slips ? — I might have done so.

844. Have you done so ? —

Mr. Cockburn objected to any evidence relating to what had been done
at former elections.

845. Mr. Talbot.'] You were kind enough to tell me when you came into the
box you acted quite voluntarily ?— Yes.

846. You did so ? — Yes.

847. What do you mean by that? — Of my own free will.

848. Did you walk on to the hustings and say I am a volunteer ? — No, I did
not.

849. Was there a place set apart for check-clerks ? — Yes.

850. Were other parties excluded from that part, under the direction of the
mayor r —

851. Mr. Cockburn.] Did you hear the mayor give any directions? — ^No, I
did not.

852. Mr. Talbot.] Did you see any parties intrude themselves into the check-
clerks' place but yourself and the other check-clerk ? — No,

853. When you presented yourself for admission in the morning, who let you
in ? — I went in ; I walked in.

854. Not having had any previous communication with any body ? — None.

, 855. You walked into the check-clerks* place without having any communi-
cation with any one, is that so ? — Yes.

856. From whom did you get the book you used — {the Witness hesitated) —
Now, Mr. Osborne ? — I am sure I do not know.

857. Is that the answer by which you wish to abide before this Committee ;
you that are a volunteer ?— I believe the book was at the hustings.

858. This happened some five or six weeks ago : I am not satisfied with
belief ; I must know where you got that book ? — I am sure I cannot call to
mind who gave it to me or where I found it : I do not know where I got it
from.

859. That you mean to state, do you, that you do not know where you got
the book in which you wrote upon that day ? — I do not know the person who
gave it me.

860. A stranger, perhaps ; a volunteer ? — No.

861. Do you remember tiie fact of having received it from some man or
woman ? — ^The book was given to me, but by whom I cannot state.

862. When ? — I proceeded with it to the hustings.

863. Where from ? — I carried it with me.

864. Where from ? — I believe it was given into my hands in the street.

865. Before you got into the street you must have been in some house, where
was it ? — It was at the Crab-tree.

866. That is a public-house.^ — ^Yes.

867. Did you breakfast there? — I believe I did.

868. You breakfasted there on the morning of the election, did you ? — Yes.

869. Is that one of Mr. Kinder's houses? — I believe it is.

870. Did you breakfast alone ? — ^Yes.

871. You did quite alone ? — Yes.

872. Committee.] What do you mean by one of Mr, Kinder's houses ? —
Mr. Talbot.] Belonging to him.

873. Committee.] He is a brewer?—
m^. Talbot.] Yes.

874. Mr. Cockburn.] Do you know that it is one of his houses ? — No.

875. Mr. Talbot.] Having breakfasted alone, you went into the street and fell
in with this poll-book ? — Yes.

876. I want to know from whom you got it ? — (the Witness hesitated) — I
cannot recollect who gave it me.

877. Perhaps



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ST. ALBAN'S EliECTION COMMITTEE.



31



877. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection'; do you know Henry Edwards ?
—Yes.

878. I mean Henry Edwards, who is clerk and cashier, and what not, at Mr.
Muskett's bank ? — Yes, I know him.

879. Did you see Edwards on the morning of the election ? — I think I did.

880. After breakfast, or before breakfast ? — After breakfast.

881. On your way, therefore, from the Crab-tree to the poll? — Yes:

882. Did you receive the book from him? — No.

883. You are confident as to that ?— Yes.

884. How come you to be so sure if you do not know from whom you re-
ceived it ? — I am certain I did not receive it fi-om hinu

885. Then, perhaps, having excluded him from the rest of the world, you
can tell me from whom it was you did receive it? I really cannot tell.

886. Who did you meet between the Crab-tree and the hustings besides
Edwards r — I do not know ; I met a great many people.

887. Had you any conversation with anybody between the hustings and the
Crab-tree ? — I went home from the Crab-tree before I went to the hustings.

888. Did you see Edwards at your house .^ — No.

889. Where was it ? — In the street.

890. Did you speak to him ? — ^I dare say I did ; I passed the time of day to
him.

You said, ** It is just eight o'clock** ? — No.

You said, '* Good morning" ? — Yes, " Good morning.*'

That was all that passed ? — ^Yes.

You did not receive the book at that time ? — No.

Where was the book at that moment ; had you received it previously ?



Thomiu OiUme.



26 March 1841.



891.
892.

893-
894.

895-

-Yes.

896.



At your own home ? — Yes, I believe it was at home.

897. Now you see, having breakfasted at the Crab-tree, and having gone
home, and having there got your check-book, I wish to know who brought it
to your home ; you cannot forget that ? — I do not know who brought it home.

898. Do you know whether it was a man, or woman, or child ? — It was



a man.

899.

900.
man.

901.

902



How long were you there ? — About five or 10 minutes.

How many men called there during those five or 10 minutes ? — One



This one individual ? — Yes.

Where did he find you ? — At home j at least this person was there when
1 got home.

903. Where was he in your house ? — I believe he was in the kitchen.

904. A stranger sitting in the kitchen ?— No, not a stranger.

905. You can have no diflSculty in telling me who it was ? — Mr. Richardson.

906. Has that occiu'red to your recollection since I first began to ask you
who gave you the check-book ? — Yes.

907. That you swear? — ^Yes.

908. You swear you recollect it now, and did not recollect it five minutes
ago ? — Yes, I swear it.

909. What is Mr. Richardson's christian name? — Thomas.

910. What is he? — A straw-hat-maker.

91 1. Committee.'] We understand that Thomas Richardson is the person who
brought you the poll-book you afterwards took to the hustings ? — Yes.

912. Mr. Talbot.] When you told me just now you got it in the street, that
was a mistake? — Yes.

913. An involuntary one, not a voluntary one? — Yes, an involuntary one.

914. How lately had you seen Henry Edwards before this morning, when
the election commenced ? — I had not seen him when I went home.

915. That was not my question ; perhaps you did not understand me; how
long was it before the election ; you say you passed the time of day with him
on the morning of the election ? — Yes.

916. When had you seen him before that? — On the previous evening.

917. Where? — 1 do not know indeed where; in various parts of the town.

918. We will have one or two of them j now, come Mr. Osborne ?— I cannot
particularise any place.

219- E 4 919. Do



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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE



Thomas Osborne. 919. Do you mean to tell the Committee, on your oath, you cantiot tell any

one place where you had seen Edwards on the night before the election ?—

26 March 1841. I had met him in several places, in different parts of the town.

920. Reason the more for telling me one ? — I believe I saw him at the
George.

921. No belief; have you any doubt ? — No, I have not.

922. Where was it ?^ — I do not know precisely in what situation, in what room.

923. Yes, you do ; was it up stairs or down stairs ? — Down stairs.

924. I told vou you knew ; being down stairs, what part of down stairs ?^
I saw him in tne gateway, I believe.

925. Upon that occasion, did you speak to him ? — No, I did not speak to
him.

926. Did you not speak to him at all on that evening? — ^Not that I am
aware of.

927. Take as much time as you please to think, and tell me if you will swear
you did not converse with Edwards on business that evening ? — No, I did not.

927*. Not anywhere ? — No, I did not.

928. Not at the George, or anywhere else? — No.
928*. Are you intimate with him? — Not particularly.

929. How long have you known him ? — From a child ; we were school-
fellows together.

929*. School-fellows, and town-fellows since? — ^Yes.

930. Meeting most days ? — No.

930*. On the same side of the question?— Yes, invariably.

931. Had you seen Edwards when you acted as check-clerk on former
occasions ? —

Mr. Cockbum objected to the question.

The question was waived.

931*. Mr. Talbot. 11 ask you now, did not Edwards tender you employment
as check-clerk at this election ? — No.

932. That you swear? — Yes.

932*. Do you know Mr. filagg r — Yes.

933. He is the town-clerk, is not he ? — ^Yes.

933** Now, I repeat the question; were not you employed as check-clerk by
Edwards, on the part of Lord Listowel, at the last election ?— No.

934. By whom were you employed ? — By no one.
934*. Acted without remuneration entirely ? — Yes.

935. To whom did you communicate your intention of so acting before ? —
To no one.

9Z5^* Did you find any other person prepared to fulfil the duty of check-
clerk at the hustings when you went there in the morning ?—- (iVb answer.)

936- Did you find any other competitor for your office in the morning on the
part of Lord Listowel ? — No.

936*. Can you account for the fact of the check-book being sent to your
house ? — No other than having always acted in that capacity, it was supposed
I should take the same situation again.

937- By whom ? — By the party generally.

938.. Did you ever previously act without remuneration ? — Yes.

939. How often ?— On two occasions.

940. When were they ? — The two last elections.

941. And have never been paid since? — No.

942. Never? — No.

943. Did you see Mr. Blagg on AJlonday the 15th of February ? — I do not
recollect seeing him on that day.

944. Have you seen Mr. filagg since the election ? — Several times. .

945. Have you upon any occasion conversed with him ? — ^No.

946. You do not meet Mr. Blagg without talking to him ? — Yes, frequently.

947. Not invariably ; are you acquainted with him ? — Not particularly.

948. Am I to understand you to say that you have had no conversation with
Mr. Blagg since the election ? — I do not recollect any.

949. I must try to refresh your recollection again ; have you not told Mr.

Blagg



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ST. ALBAN'S ELECTION COMMITTEE. 33

Blagg that you were employed by Edwards to act as check-clerk on the last Thwnas Osborne
election ? — ■ ■

[The Witness withdrew. 26 March 1841.

Mr. Cockbum objected to the question, on the ground that you cannot
call a witness for the purpose of discrediting him; that if you choose to
call a witness you must stand or fall by his evidence ; that you cannot call
witnesses to contradict him ; and that the evidence could not aflfect Lord
Listowel, because it was something that was said in his absence.

Mr. Talbot was heard in support of the question and in answer to the
objection, and submitted, that whether the question or the answer was one
that could affect Lord Listowel in his absence was a matter for subsequent
consideration ; that he admitted the general principle, that he was not in a
condition to call witnesses to discredit the witness he had called, but
that the rule was, that if you had reason to expect that a particular
fact relevant to the issue would be proved, and tnat the witness came
and said directljr the contrary, you had a right to call witnesses to
prove that the witness had admitted that fact which you expected him to
prove.

Mr. Cockbum was heard in reply.

The Committee decided that the question could not be put.

Mr. Thos. Osborne was again called in.
Mr. Austin stated he had nothing to ask the witness.

[The Witness withdrew.

The Rev, Philip Vincent Coleman was called in ; and having been sworn, was
Examined, by Mr. Hildyard^ as follows :

950. I BELIEVE you are a dissenting minister, living at St. Alban's ? — 'Yes. Rev.

951. Are you a voter at St. Alban's ? — Yes. Philip v. Cdeman.

952. For whom did you vote at the last election? — ^For Mr. Cabbell. ■

953. Have you got a note of invitation ; will you look at that paper (handing
one to the Witness) ; did you receive that note ? — Why, sir, I receivea it certainly,
but it was not immediately sent ; I cannot say how it came to me ; I was in my
bed, but it was left at my house for me, that was how it came to me.

954. On what day did you receive it ? — On what day ?

955. If you can recollect, if you will look at the date, that will suggest it to
you. — Distinctly, I cannot say.

gsS. Was it after the vacancy occurred ? — Yes, I will probably explain it ;
I had been invited to attend Mr. Cabbell, to go about upon the canvass, and it
was the day after that ; it was the morning following.

957. That will make it the Friday morning ? — Yes ; I merely looked at it,
I took no more notice.

958. Will you tell me whether that invitation has got a signature at the
bottom of it? — It has.

959. Do you know the hand-writing of that signature ? — I do.

960. Whose hand-writing is that signature in r — That I shall tell you in a
moment; it is Mr. Edwards's,

961-2. Mr. Henry Edwards? — Mr. Henry Edwards.

963-4. A clerk at Mr. Muskett's bank ? — Yes.

965-6. Does that profess to be signed by him ? — As well as I can ascertain,,
it is H. Edwards.

967-8. Look at the back of it also ; to whom is it directed ? — ^Addressed to the
Reverend V. P. Coleman ; to myself, I understand.

969. Whose hand-writing is the direction? — That is certainly in Mr.
Edwards's hand-writing.

970-1. Will you look at the hand-writing of these several notes (banding seve-
ral papers to the Witness) ? — I think these two (selecting two notes) appear to be in
Mr. Edwards's writing, and this one also, probably ; but I will not be positive.

972-3. Is it your belief that these notes are addressed by Edwards, to the
best of your belief and judgment? — Really I will not enter into that; I am

219. F positive



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34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

^^v. positive of my own, but the other I will not say much about; I would think

Ph ilip V. Colema n. ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ . j ^^ positive of my own.

36 M r h i8a 974""5* I^ y^^^ opinion, whose hand-writing is the hand-writing on these

three notes? —

Mr. Justin objected to the question as being inconsistent with the
rule universally pursued upon subjects of this nature.

Mr. Hildyard was heard in answer to the objection, and referred to Ros-
coe's book upon Evidence, upon the proof of hand-writing, page 92.

Mr. Austin was heard in reply.
The Committee-room was cleared.

After some time, the Counsel and parties were again called in, and in-
formed that the Committee had decided that the question could not be put.

The Rev. Philip Vincent Coleman was again called in ; and further Examined

by Mr. Cockbum^ as follows :

976-7. In the direction of the note they have transposed the initials of your
name ? — Yes.

978-9. Are you often addressed in that way? — Yes, sometimes.

980-1 . When I asked you as to your belief in regard to the hand-writing upon
those three notes, do you make any difference ; are you able to express a belief,
aye or no, as to those three notes : take one note in your hand — are you able
to express your belief, aye or no, of the hand-writing of that note ? — To the best
of my belief, that is in the hand-writing of Harry Edwards.

982. Committee.^ How is it addressed? — ^To ** Edmund Wood.'*

983. Mr. Hildyard.^ Take another ; what answer do you give with respect
to that one you now hold in your hand, as to your belief? — To the best of my
belief, on looking at this particularly, I also think this is the same.

984. Committee.'] How is that addressed ?— To " Mr. M. Hale,'* or " Hall.''

985. Mr. Hildyard.'] Look at the third ; what answer do you give to the same
question as to that ? — The answer I would make to this, certainly, I am not
satisfied about.

986. Will you read that note that was addressed to yourself, and signed by
Henry Edwards ? —

987. Mr. Austin.] Let me look at it ? —

(Jt was handed to Mr. Austin.)

[The Witness withdrew.
Mr. Austin objected to the note addressed to the witness being read in
evidence, on the ground that Mr. Edwards, whose name was signed to it,
had not been proved to be the agent of Lord Listowel ; and until that was
done, any verbal or written declaration of Mr. Edwards could not be
given in evidence, although any act done by him might be, and referred to
Roscoe on Evidence.

Mr. Hildyard was about to address the Committee, in answer to the
objection, but was stopped by the Chairman, who stated that the Com-
mittee were of opinion that the paper might be put in and read.

The note was read, addressed to the Reverend V. P. Coleman : —
*' Sir, — You are respectfully requested to meet the Earl of Listowel's
committee at breakfast, at the George Inn, this morning at nine punctu-
ally. Yours, H. Edwards, St. Alban's, February 5, 1841."

Mr. Hildyard stated that the others were the same circulars addressed
to other parties, without a signature, and therefore need not be read.

The Rev. Philip Vincent Coleman was again called in j and Cross-examined

by Mr. Austin :

988. Are you a clergyman of the Church of England ? — No.

989. Of what denomination ? — I call myself an English Presbyterian, in
contradistinction to the Church of Scotland ; in the body that we belong to,
we have no confession of faith but the Bible.

990. 1 do not want to go into that ? — I thought you wanted to discuss the
question.

[The Witness withdrew.



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ST. ALBAN'S ELECTION COMMITTEE.



S5



John Brooks was again called in ; and having b^en sworn, was further
Examined by Mr. Hildyard, as follows :

991. I BELIEVE you are a grocer at St. Alban's ? — Yes.

992. Did you act as a tally -clerk at the polling-both, in the compartment
A. to K. ?— Yes.

993. You acted on the part of Mr. Cabbell ? — Yes.

994. Did you see Mr. Henry Edwards in the booth on that morning ? — Yes.

995. Mr. Edwards, we have been told, is not a voter? — I believe he is not.

996. About what time was it you saw Mr. Edwards in the booth ? — ^When
I ^t saw him, it was between nine and ten in the morning.

997. Do you recollect a person of the name of Hardy, a carrier, coming up
to the poll ? — Yes, 1 remember his polling.

998. Was Mr. Edwards in the booth then ? — When Hardy came in ?

999. Yes. — I believe he was.

1000. Do you remember Hardy refusing to take oflf his hat before he took
the bribery oath ? — I remember he refused to take off his hat to take the bribery
oath.

1001. Did he, in consequence, leave the booth without voting upon that
occasion ? — Yes, he did.

1002. Was he brought again to the booth to be polled? — Yes, he was
brought again some time afterwards.

1003. Was objection made to his polling, on the ground that he had before
presented himself, and had refused to take the bribery oath, and was not then
polled ? — Yes, it was.

1004. Did that man afterwards poll ? — Yes.

1005. Who did he poll for? — Lord Listowel.

1006. Then, I imagine that the party who objected to him would be Mr.
Cabbeirs party ? — Some one on Mr. Cabbell's behalf; I do not know who.

1007. When objection was made on Mr. Cabbell's behalf to his polling, the
mayor was present ? — Yes.

1008. Did any one on behalf of Lord Listowel contend he was entitled
to be polled ? — Yes.

1009. Who was that? — Mr. Edwards.

1010. Mr. Henry Edwards? — Yes.

1011. Was there a discussion before the mayor upon the subject? — Yes.

1012. Did the mayor investigate the facts with respect to this voter? — He
came and listened to the statement made.

1013. Mr. Edtvards was contending before the mayor he was entitled to
vote ? — Yes.

1014- What was the mayor's ultimate decision? — He asked the poll-clerk

1015. Mr. Austin.^ What was his decision? — His decision was that he was
entitled to vote.

1016. Mr. Hildyard.'] And he did vote? — Yes, he dW vote.

1017. Was the bribery oath put to every person in your compartment before
he was entitled to vote ? — Yes.

1018. To every individual ? — Yes.

1019. On both sides of the question? — To every one who polled.

1020. Did Hardy make an objection to taking the oath ? — Yes, he did in
the first instance.

1021. What did Mr. Edwards say when Hardy objected to taking the
oath?—

Mr. Austin objected to the question.
Tlie question was waived.

1022. Mr. Hildyard.'] Did he address the voter when he was refusing to
take the oath ?— Yes, he did.

1023. Did Mr. Edward's tell the voter that unless he

Mr. Austin objected to the question so far as it had gone, because it
was framed in such a way as to incorporate within it words that had been
uttered by Mr. Edwards, who was not yet proved to be an agent of, or in
any way connected with Lord Listowel.

Mr. Hildyard was heard in answer to the objection.
219. F 2 A Member



JiJin Brooks.
26 March 1841.



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36



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE



John Brooks. A Member of the Committee inquired whether Mr. Hildyard insisted

" upon the form of his question.

26 March 1841. ^r. Hildyard stated that he did not, but would frame his question in

this way, " Upon the voter refusing to take 6ff his hat when the bribery-
oath was tendered, did Mr. Edwards say anything to him ?''

Mr. Justin stated that that question would raise the whole discussion
of Mr. Edwards's agency j and he asked Mr. Hildyard whether he was pre-
pared to go into that question now ?



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