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—From 32 to 34.

11.923. {Lord Taunton.) Are there any holidays or half holidays
in the week ? — Saturday afternoon regularly, and invariably some other
afternoon which would reduce the 34 to about 28.

11.924. {Sir S. Northcole.) The 34, I suppose, includes the prepara-
tion of lessons ? — No, it does not ; the evenings are spent in jiroparation,
but it is not at all the time of the stiict discipline of the school ; the
teachers are assisting the boys.

11.925. {Lord Taunton.) Do you encourage games iuid gymnastic
exercises ? — Yes ; we have football and cricket, foot-raciisg sometimes,
and boating.

11.926. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have you any gymnastic appaiatus ? —
Yes J we have a hoi-izontal, parallel, and leaping frame.


Wednesday, 13th December 1866.


LoKD Taunton.

Lord Lyttelton.

Sir Stai'foed Noetiioote, Bart., M.P.

The Very Eev. the Dean of Chichestek.

Thomas Dyke Acland, Esq., M.P.

Peter Erle, Esq., Q.C.

John Storrar, Esq., M.D.

LORD TAUNTON in the Chur.

Biyht Han. The Eight Hon. Earl FoitTEScuE called in and examined.

, ' 11,927. {Lord Taunton^ I believe your Lordship has devoted much

iSthDec. 1865. time and attention for several years to the question of education, espc-

cially the education of the middle class ? — I have, but unfortunately the

loss of one eye and the serious injury to the other has prevented my
working as hard at that, or indeed any other question, which I take an
interest in, as I used to do before 1 had that misfortune.

1 1.928. I believe your Lordship has published your views upon this
subject ? — Yes.

11.929. And you have also taken an active part in promoting a
middle-class school in your own neighbourhood in Devonshire ? — I

11.930. Will you have the goodness in the first place to state any
opinions which you may have formed as to the best mode of supplying
tiie acknowledged deficiency in the means of instruction for cliildren of
the middle class, at present especially with reference to the agricultural
classes ? — I feel all the more embarrassed in answering that question,
from the fact of having more carefully and with much more opportunity
of weighing every word, stated my views generally, on the subject in
print : but I should say that my own opinion is strongly that it ivould be
most desirable to take the " county " rather than the whole country as
the basis, if I may so say, of educational operations for the benefit of the


middle classes ; excluding, of course, from county operations, and making Biyht Hon.
a special provision for their peculiar cases, extremely large iayfjxs -Earl Fortescue,

which form almost separate communities of themselves, such as Liver-

pool, Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol, and so on. 13th Dec. 1865.

11.931. I understand your Lordship to say that you would establish a
system of schools in some considerable area of country in some degree
corresponding to the ordinary size of an English county ? — Yes ; and I.
think that the county has very great advantages from its associations
and its historical character, and the habit that Englishmen in the country
have of considering themselves as belonging to one county or another ;
that it has all the advantages of any other local division and many more

11.932. Will you have the kindness to state more particularly the
nature of the system you would propose to establish in English coun-
ties ? — I think that there would be difficulty in the first instance, even
after this Commission has terminated its labours, in bringing together
all the old grammar schools, and turning to immediate account all the
resources available from educational and other endowments, placing
these in the best form for providing schools, and doing what is best
and most desirable for the education of the middle classes ; and that the
utilization of existing endowments would not supersede the desirableness
of establishing institutions somewhat analogous with the one with which
I have been more particularly connected, of an entirely sclf-sui^porting
character, with a considerable proportion of the commercial element
incorporated in it. I think it would be easier to establish a certain
number of new institutions in the most desirable form to serve as models
and as stimulants to existing institutions to which these could be more
or less hereafter assimilated : and I think that there would be no great
difficulty in providing one or two of them at least in each county in
England very much on the system which has been so fully detailed to
you by my friend and neighbour, Prebendai-y Brereton.

11.933. I believe your Lordship has had the opportunity of reading
Mr. Prebendary Brereton's evidence ? — Thanks to your kindness I have
had the advantage of reading his evidence, and perhaps I might save
the time of the Commission by stating that I can fully corroboi'ate nil
that he states about the past history and the present condition of the
Devon County School at West Buckland.

11.934. That is altogether a modern institution. There is, I believe,
no ancient foundation or endowment about it ? — Yes. There is no
ancient endowment certainly attached to it. There are one or two
recent ones.

11.935. I understand your Lordship to say that you would wish to see
similar schools established in different parts of the country ? — Yes ;
though not by any means to supply the whole present deficiency of
middle class education, but I tliink one or two in each county would be
a great advantage in guiding the proceedings hereafter of those to whom
should be entrusted the difficult task of modifying, renovating, and
improving existing institutions or dormant endowments, so as to render
them really adequately useful for the education of the middle classes.

11.936. What use would you make of existing endowments ? In
Tirhat way do you think it desirable that the Legislature should deal
with them with a view to their greater efficiency ? — My own impression
is, that with regard to endowments for any public purposes made at a
very early period, say before the Reformation, Parliament should con-
sider itself justified in turning them to account for almost any public
objects which might be considered desirable short of relieving the tax-
payers of the country from general taxation, or helping to pay off the


Right Hon. national debt ; that a very great latitude might fairly and reasonably be

EarlFortescue. taken in dealing with very ancient endowments, but that subsequent

r — endowments should be dealt with according to their antiquity ; and

13 th Dec. 186 5. (.jj^^,.^ taken (say) century by century from the time of their foundation,

they should be at liberty to be dealt with in ways successively differing

more and more widely from the original intentions of the founders.

11.937. Without entering upon any question of abstract right, do you
think that it would be expedient or practicable for the Legislatuie to
divert tlie funds which exist in this country for educational purposes to
any other but educational purposes ? — So far from it, I was rather look-
ing to the practicability and expediency of diverting those funds ft-om
purposes some of thsra very nearly useless, and others of them I believe
actually injurious in their operation to what I believe to be the unques-
tionably useful purpose of promoting sound education, whether in the
lower or middle classes.

11.938. Several witnesses have spoken favourably of a scheme that
would have for its object to concentrate some of these endowments that
were scattered over the face of the country for the purpose of making a
few very good schools. Are you favourable to any such project ? —
Yes ; my own impression is v.ry strongly in favour of sucli a project,
with, probably, the reservation of some advantage or privilege to the
inhabitants of the different places whose funds are diverted from the
locality itself to form, in combination with others, a school superior to
any that they could independently provide.

11.939. Do you think a system of schools so established, say in a
county, could properly be placed under the management and control of
some local authority ? — ^I have a very strong opinion hi favour of such
a scheme.

11.940. Should you see any objection to endeavouring to unite some
other principle with that of endowment, say the principle of proprietary
schools, thus giving increased extension, and perhaps attracting more
public interest to those schools, and rendering them more efficient ? — I
do not believe that there would be any great difficulty ; nor do I see any
practical objcct.ion to a combination to a certain extent of the commer-
cial principle v/ith endowment : but it appears to me that the endow-
ment in that case must be put into the shape of exhibitions and rewards
for scholarships, or for merit in some shape or other ; and that it would
not be very desirable to set up institutions of a quasi self-supporting
character. It seems to me that the stimulus of self-interest and good
management resulting from the adoption of the proprietary principle
would be \ery mucli neutraUzed in that case by a supplementary grant,
in aid, as it wore, from endowment funds.

11.941. You think it would be difficult to blend the tAvo principles
together ? — I think in the shajse of contributions in aid of educationiil
expenses it might be difficult ; at the same time I am not at ail prex)ared
to say that it would be an insuperable difficulty.

11.942. In tlie case of buildings, do you think that a proprietary
school could not be very well conducted, and advantageously conducted,
in a locality Avliere the buildings were supplied by an old grammar
school ? — I ouglit to have made an exception in favour of buildings as
well as of endowments for a scholarship. What I looked to with appre-
hension was an annual grant in aid, or an annual sum paid in aid of tlio
expenses of management. Of com-sc, abstractedly considered, tlie
interest of tlie money expended on the buildings is to a certain extent
a grant in aid ; but I think it would be in a shape much less likely to
lead to improvidence and mismanagement tlian in the other case.

11.943. Probably that would depend in a great measure upon the


degree of vigilance and control which the managers or trustees, or Bight Hon,

whoever were the body that watched over the school, were able to EarlFortescue.

exercise ? — Yes ; but I think an annual grant, particularly if it was r

of an uncertain amount, would be liable to lead to some laxity of ^'^' '


11.944. Do you think there would be no advantage in that sort of
fixity and respect which is given in this country to old established
institutions of every kind, from the circumstance of a proprietary school
of this sort being connected with some old grammar schools ? — I think
that very groat advantage would result from its being connected with
old endowments, or even new buildings of a certain character, and
particularly its being connected with other places of education by
scholarships and exhibitions.

11.945. I think your Lordship is of opinion that a sort of County
Board would be a good means of managing all the educational establish-
ments within the county that were endowed, and such of the other
schools as Avcre willing to place themselves inider its control ? — I have
a very strong impression that it might be found of very great value.

11.946. How would you propose that that County Board should bo
constituted ? — I have an idea that a County Board might be com-
posed partly of some of the leading persons belonging to the county
and partly of the i-epresentatives of the different trusts and charities,
and endowed schools now existing. That you might form a County
Board composed in some such manner as the following ; of the lord
lieutenant, the chairmen of quarter sessions, the chairmen and possibly
the vice-chairmen of the boards of guardians, and the mayors of the
towns within the county, all except the first holding their offices by
election, and combined with tliem, in probably equal n\nnbers of that
body, representatives of those different trusts, elected singly in the
case of the more important and wealthy of them and elected by several
of them jointly in the case of others ; these endowments being grouped
together for the purpose of representation either according to the class
of endowments or according to the locality, as might on further occasion
be found most desirable. Then I think that, as a very great proportion
of endowments have been founded by persons deeply interested in the
National church, the Church of England element in these foundations
should be i-epresented ; and that therefore the bishop of the diocese,
with perliaps the archdeacons of the archdeaconries within the county,
and possibly the dean in the towns, would also be a desirable addition
to the permanent and non-elected members.

11.947. Your school at West BuckJand ia a boarding school ? — It is
a boarding school witli a small number of day scholars.

11.948. "Which of these systems do you think tlie best for the sons of
farmers, that of day scholai's or boarders ? — My own impression is veiy
strongly in favour of a great preiDonderance of boarders. I think iny
own recollection of a public school, and further reflection, leads me to
believe that the advantages of a public school can best be extended to the
middle class by a system of boarders : and the best proof that it is
appreciated by a certain number of farmers at any rate, is to be found
in the fact that more than one farmer within reach of sending his boy as
a day boy has paid the heavy extra cost of placing him there as a
boarder for a longer or shorter time during his stay at the school.

11.949. I believe the annual expense to a boarder, including every-
thing, at West Buckland is about 251. a yeai' ? — About that.

11.950. I believe the tenant farmers in your part of Devonshire are
not generally very large holders of land ? — No, they are not generally.

11.951. Do you find that they are willing and able to pay that sum ?


Itighi Hon. — ^A certain proportion of them. My own impression is that they hardly

EarlFortescue. yet attach a sufficient valne to education to be willing to expend part

~ ^ of the capital to be bestowed upon their children, upon the education of

13 th De c. 1865. ji^Qgg children in the manner that a very great proportion of the higher

class do.

11.952. But supposing that time to have arrived, do you then believe
that the sum of 25/. a year is not so high as to exclude a great pro-
portion of the tenant farmers from being able to send their sous for
education to such a school ? — I think it would exclude a certain number,
but the tendency throughout Devonshire is rather to a consolidation of
farms and to larger occupations, as I believe it is generally in England,
wherever occupations are not already pretty large ; aud therefore I
think that would be a diminishing difficulty.

1 1.953. Do you find any farmers able to send two sons at present to
the school ? — Yes ; there are instances of farmers already sending
tv/o sons.

11.954. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you generally agree in the evidence
of Mr. Brereton, as given us on that subject ? — ^Tes ; I do generally.

11.955. With regai'd to any re-application of existing endowments,
where they arc or are supposed to be wholly for the benefit of particular
districts, should you expect much local opposition to be encountered
in the attempt to do so ? — -Yes ; T think there would be a good deal of
local opposition, but I think that the local opposition to a county
scheme would be very much slighter than the local opposition would be
to any other scheme on any other basis.

11.956. {Sir S. Norlhcote.) I suppose you would hardly consider
that so large a board as you contemplate could manage the details of
the school work ? — One of the objects that I contemplated in the
board's formation was the election of a limited number of county
trustees to administer the local properties and the local endov/ments,
with Ihe addition of, say, one trustee from each endowment. As regards
the management of the jDroperty of that endowment and the vesting in
them absolutely the appointment and dismissal of head masters of the
different endov/cd schools under their management, it seems to me very
essential that that should rest with a small and highly responsible, and
to a certain extent permanent, body. At West Buckland that lias been
provided for ; I do not know whether with adequate legal security, but
at any rate at present by the shareholders voluntarily vesting in a small
body of trustees the appointment aud dismissal of the head master,
instead of reserving it to themselves, and placing it in the hands of the
directors of the company.

11.957. Would you confer upon the county board a general large
power of dealing with the various endowments of the county, or would
you give them certain specific directions by Act of Parliament to
enable them, for instance, to apply endowments appropriated to one
school to another school, or to a now school which might be intended
to supply the wants of two or three of the existing schools ? — ^My own
view would be that it would bo desirable for them to prepare schemes
and submit them for approval : first, for the small body, the county
trustees, to prepare schemes and to submit them for the approval of the
county board, and after the county board had sanctioned them, to
submit them to a minister of education, or to some person responsible
to Parliament directly or indirectly, to ensure, not by any means
uniformity, but something approaching to unity in the pi-inciples of the
administration of such endowments throughout England.

11.958. Supposing it should be found that in any particular county
there were several grammar schools, having endowmoiUs in the shape


of exhibitions or scholarships at the Universities, and it was found that j{{ght Hon.
these schools were too small to be maintained with advantage separately, EarlFortescue.

would you propose that these exhibitions or endowments should be ■

concentrated upon a single school to supply the place of the two l3thDee. 1865.

or three grammar schools ? — I think that some of the exhibitions to the

Universities might very advantageously be concentrated in a school of

rather a higher class of instruction. But in that case I think, as a matter

of fairness, some provision should be made for turning an equivalent

sum to that of a part of those exhibitions into a shape more generally

available for the average wants of the middle classes ; that they should

be turned into exhibitions, not to the old Universities but to some other

place of education.

11.959. Then would you think it desirable that in laying down any
scheme for the formation of county boards special provision should be
made by the Legislature to regulate the mode in which such questions
as that were to be dealt with, or would you throw them loose on the
county in order that the county board might discuss them, and might
prepare schemes to submit to some central authority, and if the latter,
or in any case, would you give to the persons interested in the par-
ticular towns to which the endowments are now attached any right of
veto ? — I should not be disposed to give an absolute right of veto to
the particular towns, because I think that in many cases we should see
much the same effect produced as in the case of city churches, by an
absolute veto to be exercised by the short-sighted local element or
jealousy in particular places upon a scheme which would be decidedly
for the general advantage of the county, and even in the long run of
the town itself : but I think only a few leading principles should be laid
down by the Legislature, and that a great deal of latitude ought to be
allowed to different county boards in the preparation of schemes for
dealing with the different local endowments.

1 1.960. (Lord Li/ttelton.) With regard to the local opposition, do
you think that with a well-considered scheme of this kind, the general
feeling in a county Avould be strong enough to enable Parliament to
deal compulsorily with these endowments in spite of the opposition
of the smaller districts ? — I should be inclined to think so ; I think
there is a very strong feeling in the country that there is an enormous
amount of property either absolutely wasted or turned to very little
useful account ; and there is, I think, a very strong feeling springing
up that better means of education are wanted for the middle class, and
less expensive and centralized means for the education of the lower

11.961. (Mr. Acland.) With reference to the endowments, do you
think it desirable in some cases to capitalize endowments, with a view
to getting better buildings and better sites for schools in towns, bearing
in mind that while it is very important to have a certain number of
good boarding-schools, that there is a large amount of day-school
education which must be provided, or ought to be provided for small
towns. Do you think it desirable in certain cases to capitalize endow-
ments in order to purchase a good site ? — I should tidink it would
be very desirable in many cases to do that ; I think that there is a
great disposition to pay a reasonable price for a good education where
the parents by paying that price can ensure getting, as one of them
described it to me, a good article for their money.

11.962. You have considered the subject much, and you have, of
course, had great experience : should you generally be of opinion that,
given good buildings and a good managing body, you might leave the


EarlF w^""' ^"1^01"' of the school very much to the response of the parents ? — My
"'^ ""^ " ^'^''"' °^'i^ impresfiion is that it might be so left to a very great extent.

13th. Dec. 1865. 11,963. You very early called public attention to- the importance of

stimulating existing schools, whether public or private, by tlie means

of examination, are you of opinion that that has produced satisfactory
results in awakening parents to their responsibilities ? — I think it has
produced a most satisfactory result, in short, I do not believe that
vifithout some system of public examination, to which considerable
weight is attached in the country, the Devon county school could have
boon carried on with anything like the success that it has.

1 1.964. Looking to the examinations as in some degree a temporai-y
expedient intended to awaken public opinion to the importance of the
thing, you would perhaps be of opinion that they would pi'obably require
(o be a great deal modified in flieir future form and principles, and take
a local character, ou account of the enormous responsibility which
would itttach to any one corporation conducting the examination of tlio
whole country ? — Yes ; my impression is that if it was only for the
training of mastei's for the middle class and for the lower class, wo
want something beyond the county schools, something of a county
college ; that the middle class woulcl, after a time, most advantageously
determine the course of education most desirable for their own children,
and for the children of their own class.

11.965. Do you think it would be practicable to establish county
bon,rds for examination as well as for the management of institutions ;
will you kindly state any views which you have upon that subject ? —
My own impression is that a confederation of county colleges would be
the moat advantageous way of dealing with the question, and that the
ically desirable thing would be to establish such a confederation, which
Avould practically amount to something very like a university, and
miglit be called a university to sui^plement, not to supersede, the Uni-
versity of London, just as that has supplemented, and not superseded,
the old universities of the country. W.hen I say the University of Lon-
don, I do not mean that it is the university of the metropolis only — that
is one of the points upon which I do not agree with my excellent friend
and neighbour — it is called the University of London, but the fact is
that its operations extend, not only widely over the counti'y, but over
the various colonies and dependencies of the British Empire.

11.966. Should you propose any connexion between tliese county

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