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maintained, that there would be a great reluctance to make an inroad
upon it ; secondly, that you could deduce no principle whatever from
the judgment which would be a guide to trustees as to their action in
such a case. The only approach to a principle seemed to me to be a
rough consideration of the population and circumstances of the parish
and neighbourhood. In fact, the main point which the Court of
Chancery looks to is the claims of the vicinage. Next, that, though
the Court of Chancery will not sanction, or is very reluctant to sanction,
any inroad on the free character of a school beyond what it considers
absolutely necessary, yet that it will sanction the imposition of capi-
tation fees within certain limits ; a course manifestly inconsistent with
any strict interpretation of the term " free " school. Next, that within
certain limits the admission of " free " boys may be by competitive
examination. I say within certain narrow limits. Lastly, that the
Court will not recognise any distinction, in the matter of free admis-
sions, of wealth or poverty, nor any claim for an exclusively commercial
education. Those, I think, were the points upon which I framed the
proposition which I beg now to lay before you. The proposition which
I determined to propose at the last meeting of the Board, had in view
the dropping of the proceedings before the Charity Commissioners, and
the instituting proceedings for a scheme in the Court of Chancery. This
course was rendered necessary by the action of the inhabitants. They
threatened an appeal to the Court, and it thus became politic for the
governors to secure the conduct of the case by taking the initiative
themselves. My proposition was as follows : —



314 SCHOOLS INQUIRY COMMISSION:

C. S, BoundeU^ « That the following proposals in respect of capitation fees be taken

^^' into consideration as a basis for a sclieme, namely : —
13th Dec. 1865. " -'• ^^^ ^^^^ ^7 *^^ (except free scholars) not exceeding 8Z. for boys
" under 14, and not exceeding \2l. for boys above 14 years of age,

" 2. Free admissions, limited to persons resident within four miles
fi'ora the school, 15. (I thought it impossible to go to the Court of
Chancery with less than that.)

" 3. Free admissions, unlimited in area, 15 ; given by competition.
(That I felt no objection to, because I regarded these free admissions,
upon the principle of competition, and with an unlimited area, as j>ro
lanto so many scholarships to be awarded to merit.)

" 4. The free admissions to cover the fee which would otherwise be
payable under the regulations to be made by the governors for the
general management of the school."

That was to preclude any fear of favouritism on the part of the masters
towards paying boys as distinct from the free boys. I made that propo-
.sition to the governors in the belief, as I stated, that if we went into
the Court of Chancery we could hold our ground, and that the scheme
so based would not infringe any important principle. I need not say
tliat I had the fear of the Court of Chancery before me. It is not what
I would have wished to propose a priori, but what I felt constrained
to propose in the present state of the law.

12.030. By whom were those decisions to which you have refen'ed
given ? — By Vice-Chancellor Wood. I beg particularly to say that my
remarks have no reference to that distingTiished judge, but to the law
v/hieh he has to administer. That was met by an amendment to this
effect, that we should not proceed before the Court of Chancery, that
we should go on with our proceedings before the Charity Com-
missioners, omitting altogether out of our scheme the clause bearing upon
the capitation fees, with a salvo of the utmost importance, that it was
to be clearly understood that it would be open to the governors, or to
the inhabitants, at any future time to deal with that question as they
thought fit. That amendment was carried, and I think that in the present
state of the law it was perhaps the best thing to do. We avoid a bad
settlement. Wo ai'c perfectly free to deal with the subject when this
Commission has reported, and when, as I hope, legislation has followed.
That I think completes the history of those proceedings.

12.031. You appear personally to have a very sti-ong feeling against
free admissions ? — Yes, I think them most pernicious.

12.032. Do you think that it would be objectionable in principle,
where the funds of a school can afford it, to have a certain number of
free admissions, to bo given either by competition, or in some instances
for the sake of poverty even to boys without competition, at the dis-
cretion of governors or some responsible authority ? — I would ask
to be allowed to answer that question shortly in detail. It is one
of the points on which I was anxious to speak. Perhaps before
I answer your question I may be allowed, from such experience
as I have had at Giggleswick, to express the strong opinion that
I entertain of the absolute necessity of dealing with this question
of free education in the most decided manner. Local trustees can do
nothing in the present state of things. We have tried it in the case of
Giggleswick ; we have had as good a board of governors as possible, and
the case has been as fairly tried as it could have been, and yet we have
been hopelessly beaten, and so I am convinced it must be until a strong
expression of authoritative opinion is given, if this Commissioia thinks fit
to do so, and legislation follows. In the present state of things, with
the Court of Chancery in the background, local trustees have their



MINUTES Off EVIDENCE. 315

hands bound behind their backs. I cannot too strongly express, if I ^ « d ■, r,
may be allowed to do so, my own conviction of the absolute importance ' 'eso!^ '
of that question being dealt with thoroughly and conclusively. 1

12.033. Will you have the kindness to state any reasons which may 'ISth Dec. 1865,

occur to you in support of that view ? — I think it is enough for me to

say this, that it has been tried as fairly as it could be at Giggleswick.

We have persona like Sir James Kay Shuttleworth and others on the
board who are interested in education, Everything has been done I am
convinced that the trustees can do,

12.034. You are begging the question that it is an evil, I want to
know why you think a certain number of free admissions are a positive
evil ? — ^I think that the reasons contained in the protest on the part of
the dissentient governors, which I read just now to the Commissioners,
would practically express my opinions on the subject.

12.035. Are there any other statements which you would wisli to
make to us about this school ? — Perhaps I may be allowed to answer a
question which your lordship put to me just now before my digi-ession.
I think what one has to look to in these grammar schools is to
guard against the recognized tendency of all these schools to rise in
the scale of education, in other words, one must pay careful regard
to the proper interests of poor men. Of course everybody must ear-
nestly wish that ability in whatever sphere of life, however humble
should have its opportunity. Then how is that to be provided for ?
It seems to me that it will be best provided for in this way ; first of all,
simply abolish free admissions as such, because I cannot understand why,
when sons of poorer parents have to pay one-third of the charo^e of 30s.
a year to the National or elementary school, why, I say, the sons of
parents in a higher position in life are to get their education for nothing
as charity, and it also cripples so much the resources of the school. Then
what I would look to, to secure the rights of the poor, would be this ;
I would recognize local claims to a certain extent, I think one ought to
do so. Usage and engrained English feeling are in fa-s'our of it. Then
I would say let a reduced foe be paid by the sons of the inhabitants of
the parish in which the school is ; such a fee as 81. or 41. a year : such
a fee, in fact, as would be paid at a private establishment, with all its
inferior advantages. Also, I think that further security should be taken
in this way) that in these grammar schools there should be a lower and
a higher course of instruction, not two schools as a general rule, but one
school. In the lower forms, compendiously, an English education ; in the
upper forms the English education further developed, with all opportu-
nities, (in the case of the more highly endowed schools, and for those
who desired it,) for higher classical instruction ; in addition to that, the
award of scholarships tenable at the school. I have a doubt about
exliibitions, whether, looking to the class of boys, and to the best
husbanding of the school resources, it is not a waste of school funds to

five a large sum like 601. a year for a boy at the University. Then
would also look to the recognition of what seems to me to be a moat
important principle, I mean the drafting system : that you should regard
all education in the country from the elementary schools up to the
Universities as so many links in a graduated series, and that power should
be given to the governors to admit to these grammar schools freely
without charge boys from the elementary schools, so as to enable a
poor boy, if he has the proper ability, to rise from the elementary school
and go to the University, and attain to whatever position in life his
abilities fit him for. It seems to me that in the reformed state of the
Universities, with open schohu-ships and fellowships elected to by meiit.



316 SCHOOLS INQUIEY COMMISSION:

C. S. Roundett, there is everything in favour of that, and still more if the extension of
■Esg. the Universities in a national sense is carried forward.

JT ■ 12,036. So that a boy could win his way according to that system from

13 th Dec. 186 5. ^jjg lowest means of education up to the highest ?— Yes ; then there
would be the question whether there should not be the power also in the
governors within certain limits to remit fees in proper cases, having
regard I mean to persons socially higher, but really, when you come to
speak of poverty, as poor or poorer than persons in a relatively lower
social position. I would therefore contemplate the remission of fees in
proper cases within certain limits, and I do not think that it is sub-
stantially obnoxious to the charge of abuse by favouritism, which is
alleged against it. I think that that may be provided against. There-
fore, to sum up that part of the subject, it seems to me that the only
sure way to guard against the tendency of these grammar schools unduly
to rise is by the reduction of fees in the case of persons on the spot, and
by having regard to the bifurcation system, to a course of English
instruction in the lower forms which boys who are going into trade
would complete at 14, and it seems to me that in that way yon would
effectually carry out the object of securing the rights and interests of the
poor, which you cannot do by any such expedient as remission merely,
or by fanciful or complex devices.

12.037. (^Sir S. JVorthcote.) Do you think it would be desirable to
embody in an Act of Parliament detailed provisions for the purpose of
accomplishing such matters as you would desire to see accomplished, or
would you have a General Act of Parliament empowering boards of
governoi's to deal with schools and trusts in the way that you think
desirable without being subject to the present restrictions imposed upon
them by the decisions of the Court of Chancery ? — ^I am inclined to
think that the only way to deal with the question would be siunmarily to
abolish free admissions altogether, and then having done that, to invest
the Charity Commissioners, who seem to me to be a body very much
better fitted to deal with these subjects administratively than the
Court of Chancery can possibly do, to invest the Charity Commissioners,
I say, with larger powers, having once for all cut away the ground of free
admissions.

12.038. Which you would prohibit absolutely ? — ^I would prohibit
them absolutely, for I think that, unless they are cut away root and
branch, there would be a superstitious hankering after them.

12.039. {Lord Taunton.) Is there any other point to which you are
desirous of calling the attention of the Commission ? — I am very unwil-
ling to trespass on the time of the Commission, but there are one or two
points the heads of which I could briefly state. With reference to the
Court of Chancery, it seems to me that the rule of the Court with respect
to boarders, as in the Bristol school case determined by the present
Master of the Rolls, is very mischievous. I also think that it would be
desirable that Parliament should enlarge the powers already given by
the Charitable Trusts Acts with reference to the appropriation of school
funds for permanent school purposes. I believe that, according to the
existing law, the proceeds of the sale of charity lands must be rein-
vested in land ; and that, if such monies are allowed to be applied for
building or other purposes, the chaiity must recoup itself within a certain
time, I of course fully recognise the propriety of not lightly tampering
with the corpus of charity property. But this principle may be carried
too far ; and it seems to me that, subject to proper checks, such as the
consent of the Charity Commissioners, power should be given, in proper
cases and within reasonable limits, to convert a part of the school



MINtrTE9 OP EVIDENCE. 317

endowment, even though consisting of land, for the permanent uses of C. 8. Rmmdell
the school. For, after all, a school endowment is perhaps best utilized ^'l-
by being applied to the improvement and development of the school ,„., C^T ,o„_
" plant ;" and mischief must sometimes ensue irom the rigid application ^°'

of the recouping rule. I beg also to be allowed to express my opinion
as to the desirability, and, I will add, the justice of abolishing those
provisions, whether of the common, canon, or statute law, which unfairly
(as it seems to me) press upon Dissenters. In particular, I would urge,
in the interests of education, the importance of not excluding Dissenters
from the governing bodies of these schools. To all difficulties and
objections on this score, I would reply, " Let the tiling be done,
" and your fancied difficulties will disappear ; solvitur ambulando."
Whether again the masterships of endowed schools ought not to be
brought within the reach of Dissenters is a question of serious import-
ance in the interest not only of education but of the public at large. It
is my belief, from conversation which I have had on the subject with
leading Nonconformists, that such a measure would operate as a strong
inducement to Dissenters to seek a University education for their
sons.

William Toee, Esq., of Aylesby Manor, called in and examined. -^^ Xorr, Esq.

12.040. {Lord Taunton.) I believe you are largely engaged in
agricultural pursuits in the county of Lincolnshire ? — Yes.

12.041. You farm a very large farm there ? — Over 2,000 acres.

12.042. Have you been long established there ? — ^All my lifetime.

12.043. {Mr. Acland.) And your family ? — And my family above
a hundred years before me on one farm.

12.044. In what part of Lincolnshire ? — I live on the edge of the
wolds, between G-rimsby and Caistor, whex'e it is a chalk formation.

12.045. I believe also that you have been much connected with
the Royal Agricultural Society ? — Yes, and with other agricultural
societies.

12.046. Has your attention been much directed to the present means
which the class of tenant farmers have of educating their children ? —
Yes.

10.047. Do you believe those means to be very deficient ? — I think
they are not what they ought to have been, there is some improvement,
but not sufficient.

] 2,048. I believe in your part of the country the farmers conduct
their business on a very large scale ? — Yes ; the general character of
farmers in my district is that of a wealthy community, from their long
holdings, and they take an education above that of farmers generally.

12.049. What would apply to them would hardly apply to the small
tenant farmers in other parts of England ? — Decidedly not.

12.050. Have you had some experience of the condition of the small
tenant farmers in other places ? — Yes.

12.051. You perhaps have formed some opinion of the means which
they have of educating their children ? — I have.

12.052. What do the difficulties arise from which that class of
tenant farmers now experience in finding a suitable means of education
for their children ? — According to the qualifications of farmers I should
think if you take farmers of a good position there is no great difficulty.

12.053. How do the farmers about you educate their sons ? — There
is no great difficulty there. They are in a position to send their sons
to the very best schools.



318 SCHOOLS INQUIRY COMMISSION:

W. Torr, Esq. 12,034, Are tliosG schools to be found at no gi-eat distance ? — There

arc generally some schools more from home.

13th Dec. 1865. 12,055. Can you instance any school? — We have one gi-ammai-

' school in Lincolnshire, near me, at Louth, which takes a great many

farmers' sons.

12.056. What is the expense of education at this school ? — That
perhaps would be from 50/. to 601. a year.

12.057. I suppose the leading farmers in your neighbourhood ai-e
willing and able to give that price for the good education of their
children ? — Decidedly so.

12.058. That does not apply of course to the smaller farmers in
other districts ? — Decidedly not,

12.059. What should you say, taking the average size of fai-ms, lie
would be willing and able to give for the education of his son ? — From
30/. to 40/. a year.

12.060. Still there is a large class which cannot afford to give that ?
— Decidedly.

12.061. You are speaking of course of boarding schools ? — I am.

12.062. What do you think, speaking generally, would be a proper
education for the son of a farmer ? — Am I to suppose that the farmer
is a man of decent capital, 4,000/. or 5,000/. and wishes to have a farm
well managed ?

12.063. Yes. — The first principle of education is good arithmetic
and book-keeping. Book-keeping means that accounts should be kept
in a commercial form instead of simply " Paid," and " Received."

12.064. Do you mean double entry ? — I keep all my books by double
entry. The commercial principle need not be exactly double entry in
its entirety, but it should be so as to show the cost of anything and the
result of anything, not merely, " I paid so much on Satui-day and re-
" ceived so much on Saturday," but it should be in advance of that.

12.065. I presume you would give the son of a farmer who was to
receive a good general practical education what you would wish to
give to the son of any other man in something of the same condition ?
— Exactly so,

12.066. Is there any special education which you think desirable
for the son of a farmer ? — Decidedly so,

12.067. What is that ? — ^As I said, good arithmetic and the lower
bi'anches of mathematics, some knowledge of geometry, and a decided
knowledge of the elements of chemistry and Latin.

12.068. You would teach him Latin ?— Decidedly so.

12.069. Would you teach him Latin simply for the sake of the
grammar, or would you teach him Latin to enable him to read good
Latin works ? — I would teach him Latin first for the sake of the
grammar. All botany and all chemistry have a sort of Latin derivation.
There is a sort of knowledge of Latin in everything. For instance, a
man could not go into chemistry or botany without knowing the deriva-
tion a,ndi finale of every word ; and he should know something more
than the English construction.

12.070. Would you teach him Fi'ench ? — I think not,

12.071. Would you teach him the elements of mathematics ? — Yes.

12.072. How late do you think, generally speaking, a farmer would
be disposed to leave his son at school]? — I think that is one of the
great defects of the present agricultural education. They are taken
from school too soon. I would never allow a boy to come from school
certainly under 16.

12.073. Do you think he would be none the worse farmer for having



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 319

received a good education up to that period at school ?— Decidedly W. Torr, Esq.
better.

12.074. "Would you attempt at school to give any special instruction l3thDeo. 1865
of a practical kind as a farmer ? — Decidedly not.

12.075. You think he could best learn that afterwards with you at'
home ? — ^It would interfere with his general education and do him far
more harm than good.

12.076. Have you at all turned your attention to what means could
be adopted to supply this want of good schools for the children of
farmers specially in those districts where they could not afford to give
more than from 20Z. to 30Z. a year for such education ? — There seems
now to be only the grammar schools, which are very expensive, and
the ordinary National schools which are rather low. There used to
be in England a class of clergyman having boarding schools which
have now nearly disappeared.

12.077. Have not proprietary schools and good private schools in
some degree taken their place ? — I do not think they have, exactly.

12.078. You do not find that much in your neighbourhood ?. — No, I
do not think so.

12.079. You do not know of any good proprietary schools in your
part of the country ?— No ; proprietary schools, as far as the north of
England goes, have not been the most successful.

12.080. They have not attracted public confidence ? — I think not.
That is exactly it.

12.081. Now, with regard to girls, do you think there is a want of
education in the case of girls ? — ^In girls I think there is a greater want
of education even than in boys.

12.082. Can you suggest any means by which that can be remedied ?
— I do not know that I can. I can illustrate it in this manner, that
whilst the son of a farmer has something like practical knowledge in
knowing how to get his own living, a girl has learnt nothing.

12.083. {Lord Lyttelton.) Would you give your reasons more fuUy
for thinking that it is not well to attempt to teaeh farming practically
before they leave school ? — Yes, I am quite open to that. In the first
place the position of a farm attached to a school is not a general one.
It would not give a general knowledge of farming, it would only be local.
The very attention of a boy to that would lead him from his studies, and
when he gets home he is prone to go fox-hunting and shooting, anditisonly
encouraging that sort of thing. If he is at school he must be at school.

12.084. Do you believe that the children of farmers, as it is, generally
do learn the elements of Latin ?— Yes ; I think much more now. I
think in this manner that a lower class of farmers now learn Latin to
what they did when I was a boy.

12.085. Do you believe that the farmers in the poorer parts of
England, where the farms are much smaller than they are near you,
ever get Latin taught to their children ? — No.

12.086. Do you consider that boarding schools are better than day
schools for the sons of farmers ? — Day schools for a young boy, but a
boy ought to go to a boarding school.

12.087. Will you give your reason ? — A boarding school takes him
from home, and he gets freer from little occupations that may induce his
leisure hours to be unprofltably spent.

12.088. Do you conceive the same reasons which make that desirable
for the upper class would make it desirable for the childi-en of farmers ?
—Yes.

12.089. At what age do you think you would generally send them to
boarding schools ? — The earlier the better.



320 SCHOOLS INQUIRY COMMISSION :

W. Ton, Esq. 12,090. And stay till they are about 16 ?— Yes ; I should say a boy

, may stop at home till he is 8 or 9 ; when about 10 or 11 he ought to go

13thDec^65. to i boarding school.

12.091. You think that all the practical business of their life might
be well begun to be learnt by them after the age of 16 ? — Decidedly so.
If you let him have it sooner he neglects better work ; it is more fasci-
nating ; he leaves his work too soon.

12.092. Where were you yourself brought up ? — First of all I must
tell you that I have been very well off since I was a boy. My people
have all plenty of money, if that means anything, and the only fault I
have found with my own education is that I left school rather too soon.



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