Great Britain. Schools inquiry commission.

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were asking about endowments just now. We have a small endowment
of two fellowships of 45Z. a year each. One of those 451. fellowships
is held by the head master of the third school, and that is the amount
of assistance which he receives.

941 5. (Lord Lyttelton.') At what do you estimate the cost of main-
tenance for each boy at the school ? — ^In order to be accurate I should
prefer procuring you that information.

9416. {Lord Taunlon.) Do you think this is done without relying
upon the assistance of individuals who give from motives of public spirit,
and which cannot be depended upon to go on any longer ? — My view,
and I think that which r/e all share, is this, that part of the work of the
Established Church is to provide education, and that there will be in
the clergy a body who will be just as ready to educate as there is a
body amongst the clergy ready to go and live in Bethnal Green or
elsewhere and keep themselves on 1 50Z. a year.

9417. The cheapness of yom' system depends a good deal on the
voluntary exertions of clergymen who from a sense of duty give you
that assistance at a rate which ordinary schoolmasters, properly qualified
could not be expected to give it ? — Quite so, it is the clerical element
I rely upon for maintaining cheap boarding schools and good education.

9418. {Lord Lyttelton.) You cannot say whether the maintenance
of the boys is less than five shillings a head a week ? — I hesitate about
giving an answer, because there is no doubt the price of provisions has
lately risen so very much that the information which I might have relied
upon a year ago would not be quite applicable now, and in point of fact
I do not know within the last six months what are the averages of the

9419. I believe you raised your terms some years ago ? — I may men-
tion that Hurstpierpoint school began at 18 guineas a year, and was
raised, as it filled, to 25, and after the cheap school was started at 14
guineas, we considered that we had provided for that class of society,
and we raised ours to their present terms.

9420. {I^ord Taunton^ Do you think it essential not to raise it
higher ? — I am not sure whether we need raise ours, but I have a
strong conviction that there would be plenty of people of the class we
have who would pay more than they do at Hurst.

9421. If you did raise it higher, would it not exclude a large clat>a
of persons for whom it is veiy important to provide education ? — I think
it would. It would exclude a great many. The last rise was from 25
guineas to 30 guineas. That rise, I think, was felt, and there were a
good many people who were disappointed at having the alternative
of either sending their sons to our cheap school, or not sending them to
one of our schools at all.

9422. I believe there is a large class of small fai-mers in Sussex, is
there not ? — Yes.
■ 9423. {Sir S. Northcote.) Can you toll me what is the total amount

and Nov. 1865.


which is spent upon the payment of the masters in your school ? — £1,800 Rev.E.C.Lowe,
per annum would be about it. , D.D.

9424. Can you at all tell me what the incidental expenses of educa-
tion, providing books and other things of that kind, would come to ? —
My general answer to parents is, that I believe an annual sum of from 51.
to 6Z. in excess of the terms covers books, repairs, tailors and shoemakers
bills, pocket money, and such subscriptions as we may be called upon to
advance for the boys.

9425. {Lord Lyttelton.) Subscriptions to games ? — Yes.

9426. {Sir S. Northcote) Does the 1,800/. include the board of the
masters ? — No.

9427. To remunerate the masters properly of course there must be
something added for board. What is the number of the masters ? —
you may put it at 15.

9428. (Mr. Acland.) That is the masters who board ? — Yes.

9429. {Sir S. Northcote.) What do you suppose their board might be
taken at roughly ? — I cannot qiTite answer that question. The masters
take all their meals in the general hall at the same time with the boys,
and every six months we stiike an average of what the price is per head
throughout the place, including servants, masters, and boys ; but I am
not aware of any calculation having been made of the expenses sepa-
rately for the mastei-s.

9430. {Mr. Acland.) What is the average per head for the whole
place ? — I dare say at this time we should be up to a shilling a day ;
up to within 18 months, 9|«?. and a fraction was our average.

9431. {Sir S. Northcote.) Would you take the board of the masters
at about 10*. a week ? — You must not ask me to express an opinion,
for I have never considered the question. I can only answer for what
I actually knoiv, the fact being that we have so much to do, that one
has no time for working out any statistics except what are absolutely
uecessaiy for our own purpose.

9432. {Mr. Baines.) Do you mean that \0d. a day was the average
charge for food ? — The \0d. is what we consider, at average prices,
would provide us with food, coals, washing, and light.

9433. {Mr. Acland.) Not attendance of servants ? — Not including
servants' wages or keep.

9434. {Sir S. Northcote.) Taking the salaries of the masters at
1,800/., and taking the board of the masters for 40 weeks in the year,
15 masters at 10s. each, making 300Z. a year, I find a fixed expendi-
ture of something like 2,100/., which, divided between 300 boys, would
give 11. a year to each ? — Yes.

9435. We must add some 3/. a year perhaps for incidental expenses,
that is to say, 10/. a year as the cost of education. Do you suppose that
10/. a year may be roughly taken as something like the cost of educa-
tion, independently of the cost of boarding in your school ? — I re-
member that when our terms were at 18 guineas a year, and when at
that price we were obliged to be more economical than in our compa-
ratively luxurious condition of 30 guineas, we used to reckon, when wo
had about 250 boys, that we ought to have the 8 guineas per head to
meet the expenses of salaries and keeping up the place.

9436. Therefore when I put it at 10 guineas or 10/., I put it fairly
high ? — I think so.

9437. That being so, it leaves a sum of about 20 guineas as the
charge for boarding ? — ^Yes.

9438. I mean as the expense which the parent is put to for the
boarding ? — Yes.

9439. That is for boarding for three-fourths of the year, one-fourth


Itev.E.C.Lowe, being given to holidays ? — Yes. I would state, that when the terms
S.D. were raised to 30 guineas a circular was sent round to all the parents,
.^^ stating that we were then going to open a Hurst Completion Fund,

° '^' ^^ ^^- and that the five guineas, which were then added, were to go to this
Hurst Completion Fund. Out of it we have already paid a good
deal for building our new chapel ; my house has to be built, and an
infirmary has to be built. Those enlargements which are in contem-
plation for raising our numbers to 40^ boys will come out of this.
We also told the parents that with this increase we should be desirous
of doing something in the way of benefiting their boys. Out of that
money we have now just started three exhibitions, which will be
given yearly, which are tenable for three years, and at the end of
the three years the holder will have received SOI. from us. I men-
tion this as showing you that the rise in our terms was not intended
to be followed by any corresponding rise in our salaries.

9440. "Were the salaries in point of fact raised ? — Slightly ; three of
the masters received 261. a year more than before.

9441. The object of my questions, of course, is this : I want to
ascertain how far it is probable that parents of a certain class of life
would be able and willing to afford boarding expenses. With regard
to the effect of raising your price, had it at all the effect of changing the
class of boys who come to the school ? — I think not of changing the
class, but it affected individuals.

9442. Do boys come from any distance besides the boys who come
from London ? — Tes.

9443. What is the greatest distance that you know of ? — I suppose
Gipps' Land, in Australia, is the remotest point at present.

9444. I mean from different parts of England ? — I know that at one
time we had a boy from very near the Laud's End, at the same time that
we had one from Coldstream, which is on the borders of Scotland; and
we have at this present time a boy from Dundee, another from Barn-
staple, and another from near Falmouth. Yorkshire is always well

9445. In what class of life were the parents of these boys ? — It is
sometime ago that the boy came from the Borders. He was the son of
a nobleman's bailiff, or his father held some position of that sort. I
imagine that probably the master helped the servant in the expenses ;
though I do not know that, I think it is very likely. He was a
promising boy, and I imagine that the master was anxious to give his
servant's son an education.

9446. Do you think that men who are bona fide in the position of
farmers or tradesmen, and who live, we will say, 50 or 100 miles off,
would be in a position to send their sons to board ? — I think so certainly;
for instance, we have a great many boys of Wiltshire and Dorsetshire
farmers. We have a large number of Dover boys. A good many
farmers and commercial people's sons have come to us from Derbyshire.
50 or 100 miles by rail is not a very serious matter.

9447. With regard to the class that comes to the lowest school, is
there any restriction as to them ; might the same class of boys ivho
come to you go to the lowest school if they pleased ? — If I recollect
right the prospectus of that school states that it is intended for those
whose incomes do not exceed 150^. per annum.

9448. Would questions be put to ascertain the amount of the parents'
income, or would a boy whose parents were pretty well known to have
much more than the income you have named be excluded ? — Yes, and
it not unfrequently happened at the beginning of the school, when
one used to hear more about details than now, that people would


honestly say, "My income is 200Z,, but I have a large family" or, Rev.E.C.Zowe
something of that sort, and on a statement of that kind an equitable B.B.
view of the case was taken.

9449. Does it ever happen that boys having been sent to the lower 2ndNov. 1865
school come up to the middle school afterwards ? — Yes, it not unfre-

quently happens that I get boys from the lower school. I should
like to mention to you, in respect of that, that so anxious are we to
give every class of the community the very best chance of rising, that
we have a series of scholarships by which boys can rise from the very
lowest grade, and may be carried up to our highest school, at Lancing,
at a very moderate rate.

9450. May I understand- from your saying, on the one hand, that an
income of 1501. is a sort of test for the lower school, and on the other
hand, that boys frequently come from the lower school into the middle
school, that there are a fair number of boys in the middle school
whose parents have incomes of not more than 1 50Z. ? — Certainly. As
regards some clergymen, half-pay officers, and people of that sort, one
knows it for certain ; with regard to others I really cannot tell, for it
is part of my business, having to deal with a sensitive class of the
community, to ask as few questions as possible.

9451. As far as your information goes, you consider there are boys in
your school, and a fair number, whose parents have incomes of not more
than 150Z. ? — I know there are a great number of people to whom
every sixpence is an object, and I very often hear of it if a bill is half-
a-crown more than was calculated upon.

9452. What I wanted to get at was whether parents are prepared to
give up SOI. a year out of an income of 150Z. for the education of a
child ? — I should not think that parents generally would be prepared to
make that sacrifice, because I think, as far as my observation goes, that
while there are no limits to the sacrifice some parents will make,
parents generally do not care very much on the subject of education.

9453. It would be an exceptional case, but still there are such cases?
—There are such cases. I might mention the case of a man in the
Borough who sent his sons to the lower school, and who got on in life ;
now he is better off ; he sends them all now to me. I first formed the
coimexion with him, he having sent his sons to the lower school.

9454. {Dr. Temple.) You give your masters an average salary of 1201.,
do you not? — I have not calculated any average on the subject.
Our masters represent two classes of men, viz., university men, and
those who are not university men.

9455. What is the lowest salary that you give to a university man ?
—75/. a yeai'.

9456. And what is the highest to a non-university man ? —
701. is the highest that any one who is not a university man is now

9457. And what is the lowest ? — Those who come to us out of our
training school, when they have passed their time in the training school,
begin, after having received their certificate from us, at 201. a-year, and
they rise up to 50/.

9458. How many of the 15 masters are university men ? — Eight.

9459. Do you find it easy in the case of having vacancies to fill up
to get university men to take those places ? — 1 think I may say that
there is no difficulty in getting university men ; but it is not always
easy to get the university men that I want.

9460. The possibility of extending such a system as Mr. Woodard's
over the whole country would depend very much on the possibility of
getting masters at this rate, would it not ? — Yes. I think you must


Sev.E.C.Lowe, take into consideration with respect to the salaries the position which
I>.D. our masters occupy ; that they occupy a position very different from

2D d Hov . 1865. that of iishers in a school ; and that is an attraction to many. Then
they have the society of gentlemen, and there is an easy and liberal
tone in the place. They have comfortable rooms, and out of school
they are very much their own masters.

9461. Do thoy stay with you long ? — ^Yes ; one of them has been
with me some fourteen years, I think.

9462. But what is the average stay ? — Out of the number I see here,
eight out of the fifteen must have been with me four or five years, and
some of them ten ov eleven years.

9463. There is no possibility of their marrying while they are with
you ? — I will not say that there is no possibility, I would rather say
there is not a great probability ; but the matter is under consideration.
At Lancing we have already made arrangements for the second master
there marrying, and as soon as my house is built, and myself and my
family have removed from under the college roof, a second master
would be able to marry ; and, in fact, we are prepared to consider the
question of adapting our buildings so as to enable some three, perhaps,
of the masters to marry.

9464. Do you foresee any difficulty, as time goes on, in keeping ujj
your staff ? — I do not see any cause why the supply should fail.

9465. Do you provide retiring pensions or anything to enable men
to leave you ? — It is part of the scheme that at our centre school at
Lancing there shall be buildings which will enable superannuated
Fellows to retire ; but those buildings only exist upon paper at present.

9466. (Dean of Chichester.) Would the married masters be allowed
to take pupils ? — I should think there would probably be a scale of
capitation fees.

9467. But would they be allowed to take boarders ? — They would
have a dormitory, just the same as I stated just now that I have ; a
dormitory in which the boys pay a little more ; and I have a part of
the excess of payment as a perquisite. Something analogous to that
would probably be carried out with regard to the other masters who
were married.

9468. Does the second master of Lancing take boarders ? — In that

9469. What is the connexion between the three schools ? — It is
the closest possible connexion, because all the three schools are
under the same government, namely, the body which calls itself the
Pj-ovost and Fellows of St. Nicholas' College.

9470. Are the boys in the upper class of the lower school admitted
to your school, and so on to the Lancing school ? If a boy distinguishes
himself at Shoreham school, would he be pretty nearly, as a matter of
course, elevated to your school ? — We have several scholarships at
Hurst, which reduce all expenses of board and education to 10 guineas
a year, and one of those scholarships is open to a boy from the lower
school, and is filled up by competition. In the same way there is a
scholarship at Lancing, which is open to the boys from Hurst.

9471. Are there any applications made from other parts of the country
for schools on your system? — Yes, wo are continually applied to. I

■ have been frequently applied to to assist in opening the same sort of
school elsewhere.

9472. To be placed under the Provost and others ? — Yes. It is a
very frequent thing for people to say, " Will you come and undertake
" a school in this district ?"

9473. (I.ord Taunton.) An affilialed school ? — Yes.

2nd Nov. 1865.


9474. {Lord Lyttelton.) How far has that been done? — It has not jRev.E.C.£owe,
been done at all ; because, though we have had many opportunities, our X>.X>,
Provost has considered that ho must keep his eye fixed on the three
schools in which his scheme is noAV being worked out, and that until
the buildings are completed for the third school, and the triple arrange-
ment is faUy at work, he wUl not weaken his body by dispersing it
beyond easy control.

9475. He looks rather to the future ? — ^Yes.

9476. {Dean of Chichester.) Are you affiliated with the London
University ? — ^No. Boys not unfrequently go there, but there is no
connexion other than that.

9477. (Mr. Baines.) Do the answers which you gave with rogai'd to
the second school apply to the third school with regard to the proportion
of masters ? You gave Sir Stafford Northcote the information that you
had 15 teachers in the second school ; what number of teachers have
you in the third school ? — You will be good enough to understand that
in answering about the third school, with regard to details, I do not
know off hand a great deal. I find that in the lowest school there aro
four masters who are graduates of Oxford and Cambridge, three
masters who have been trained by ourselves in the training school at
Hurstpierpoint and are in holy orders, and three others ; that makes
10, not including the drawing master.

9478. Have you any rule for the proportion of masters to boy.'^ ; the
number of boys to one master in your school ? — At Hurst the intention
is that there should be a master to every 25 boys, every second master,
that is, one master to 50 boys, being a graduate. It is something of the
same kind at the third school, St. Saviour's ; the difference is not very
great on the average, but I am not quite sure what it is ; in fact I
doubt if there is any difference in the number of masters, only in the
number of graduates.

9479. In the third school the branches of education are perhaps some-
what lower, and the boys are not carried so far as m the second school ?
— That is the case.

9480. lu consequence of their inferior position in life ? — It is not
in consequence of their infeiior position in life. On that point
I am anxious to state that I believe we all have a strong feeling
that by our schools we give the lowest and the meanest the oppor-
tunity of rising ; that we ai"e most anxious to give an education of
such a kind as shall, so far as the education goes, throw open to any one
a course which may lead to any advancement in life, but from the
facts of the case, as e.g., that the boys leave that school very much
eai'lier, the standard of attainment is necessarily very much lower.

9481. {Lord Taunton.') It is not that the quality of the instmction,
so far as it goes, is at all inferior to the other ? — Not in any way. From
the circumstance that they leave very much earlier, there is more
time given in the lowest school to such matters as writing and arith-
metic than there is with us ; but along with that there is that amount
of time given to Latin which gives a boy of ability a chance of showing
his ability, and availing himself of any greater educational advantages
that might come in his way.

9482. Is the rate of payment of masters in the lower school nearly
the same as the rate of payment of masters in your school ? — I believe
as regards the graduates it is the same. I do not think that the head
master in the lower school gets quite as much as I do.

9483. It is nearly the same ? — It is as regards the nucleus or tho
basis of it. It is so far the same in point of fact. We both have 150Z. a
year, that is what is secured to us. I have in addition to that certain

2nd Now 1865.


Mev.E.C.Zowe, fees from the boys in my dormitory, and the head master of our
D-D. lowest school also has fees to make up his salary. I believe that he
does not consider himself as well oft' as I am.

9484. Still there is no material difference, taking the masters gene-
rally, between the rate of payment in your school and the rate of
payment in the school below ? — No j and as regards thoso whom we
call " associates," that is to say, those masters whom we have trained,
and who have passed our examination, there is a uniform rate of pay-
ment for them as associates of our society quite irrespective of the
school in which they may happen to be employed.

9485. If, then, the cost of tuition, that is to say, the salaries and
board of the masters in your school, amounted to something between
71. and 10^. for each boy in your school, and if the rate of payment
in the school below approaches to that, I want to know how it is
that you are able to support the boys on so small a residue as the
difference between 71. and 14 guineas ? — First of all I have stated
that there are fewer graduate masters in the lowest school, and con-
aequently the total amount of salaries is less ; and secondly the main-
tenance of the boys at our lowest school is at a lower scale, being founded
on the dietary which is supplied by St. Ann's school in London. That
dietary is printed and is sent round to every parent with the prospec-
tuses of the lower school, and we guarantee that the children shall
be not less well fed than the dietary sets forth ; in point of fact they
are a great deal better.

9486. It is a somewhat inferior dietary to that in your school ?—

9487. May I ask whether the boys have meat every day in the
lowest school ? — The diet of the lowest school is as follows : — Sunday,
cold meat, vegetables, and pudding. Monday, baked plum pudding,
bread and cheese. Tuesday and Thursday, hot joints, vegetables,
and pudding. Wednesday and Saturday, meat pie with potatoes, bread
and cheese. Friday, pea-soup with bread and pudding. Breakfast
and tea, daily, half a pint of milk and water, and as much bread and
butter as the boy requires.

9488. {Mr. Baines.) Do you believe that that dietary is suificient for
the maintenance of health and vigour ? — I believe so entirely. The
school has its medical officer on the spot, and Dr. Ormerod of Brighton
i.s the college physician. When any necessity for his attendance ai-ises,
he visits the place, and I believe that it is considered for the class of
life to be amply sufficient for the boys.

9489. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have they any beer ? — No.

9490. {Mr. Acland.) Are you able to give an estimate for the lower
school as to the number of pence per head which each individual in the
school costs for board, as you did in the case of your own school ? —
Sometime ago it was about 7d. per day, but I do not know within the
last 12 months or 18 months what it has been.

9491. What would that amount to for the cost of the keep during
the year ; would it come to about 8^. a year for the expense of the
board of each person in the establishment ? — I almost think that for
practical purposes I liad better not go into these minuter details with
regard to the lower school, because I am not acquainted with them.

9492. Would you be so good as to explain to us exactly who ai-e the

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