John Bevill Fortescue Baron William Wyndham Grenville Grenville.

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pensions for lives and terms, or whether he attacks those holding
during pleasure, and what his general rule is, for jou well know that
this is a favourite wish with me. If Lord Shelbume presses jou about
Ireland giving a portion of civil list to the King, you will let him know
that I am preparing a state to convince him that, after striking out
pensions to Irish Secretaries or dependents, or to Irish resident in
England, it appears that above half the pension list is for English jobs
and to Euglish connexions, exclusive of Vice Treasurers, Clerks of Pells,
Chancellors of Exchequer, Masters of Eolls, Conwajs without end,
Clerks of Quit Rents, cum multii aliis. As to Lord Shelburne's
hint about Scott, I was perfectly aware of it ; but I am equally iure
that I shall have support as far as he can give it without a new
patent, and the alteration in his at this time would be too strong,
and would give claims to others.

'* I will think over the Order again, but my idea is to give
it only to peers^ as the other plan will lay me under a variety
of difficulties ; and this was strongly the King's wish. I mil
look over the names, and think of limiting the number to sixteen :
which, considering that we have 157 lay peers, of whom near 100
are resident in Ireland, and others occasionally there, will not be
more than is absolutely necessary. I shall think myself at liberty to
give one to private love and regard, and upon that footing, in con-
ndence, offer one to Lord Nugent . . I do not quite agree with
you about Peiry (Pery) ; ho has, I know, quarrelled with Lord
Sheibmne: and . . as he truly ib, I think we can make it his
interest to be fair with us. He has writ to me, in the most pressing
stile, for the Bishopric of Limerick for his brother, when vacant ; as
Killala is nearly us good, and as Cleaver will not take one or the other,
I have sold him the favour in my answer, and have expressed my wish
that he would remain ; a wish now strongly enforced by a quarrel
between Ponsonby and Ogle. . This makes it most unpleasant,
as I would not oppose or support any one of the three ; particularly
as I find Ponsonby; (of whom you need not think me jealous) is
universally reprobated, and I think it rather strong to force him in the
Chair by the weight of Government. Endeavour therefore to see
Perry ; do not hold out the least present hopes of any peers to be made,
and he will gladly close with the offer.

'^ There is here a strong idea that the Ai'chbishop of Cashel is fighting
English claims, and supports the idea of not giving way, and that the
ground is tenable ; try to find out where he is. I hear that the Primate
is ill at Bath ; pray enquire. I have routed the accounts of the Barrack
board, and Adderley the Treasurer has failed for above £5,000. I shall
dismiss him, but no one yet knows it, and I have not named or deter-
mined his successor. I am preparing for Mr. D'lvernois, and have, I
think, fixed for the Curragh of Kildare."

The Same to the Same.

1782, December 29, Sunday 4 o'clock. Dublin Castle.— "I enclose
to yon a letter which you will think sufiicient, and which I desire may
not be delayed one moment if no answer has been given, as I am sick
of this scene of duplicity. I have drawn it without referring in
it to the minutiad of the question, in order that I may hereafter call
for it if necessary ; and I am much deceived if you are not satisfied
with it. What a scene does your letter hold out? One comfort is
that whatever the event is, it must now be honourable to us : J will

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not attempt the least irac€userie or else how much is in our power, with
the knowledge of the carte du pays. Your declarations in Parliament
have been most nseful, every confidence is given to ns ; and I judge
amply of the effect by the pains taken to give the credit of it to Flood
and to Lord Beauchamp, who are held up in the Dublin Evening
Post as the real friends ; however, on all hands a real testimony is
borne to our candour nnd explicit proceedings, and upon such grounds
who can hurt us? . . If my despatch enclosed does not pro-
duce its effect, you will then uso every power both of immediate
resignation, and of assigning the reasons only to the King ; and
amongst those reasons dwell upon the increased difficulties to a plan of
resumption arising from the hopes given by me in consequence of his
Royal pleasure signified December 2d, and by you in the House of
Commons ; hopes which have contributed to quiet, and will operate as
decisively on the other side. All our friends are in transports of joy,
which I do not check ; for on the one idea it would be imprudent to
cast a doubt^ and on the other we must be borne through by our own
integrity, and by the publie resentment.

" Thank Townshend in the strongest terms for me ; a private corre-
spondence would lay him under difficulties, eke I would assure him how
truly I feel his friendship and integrity. You say nothing of Ferry
(Pery) and of his business, nor have you dropped a word of Hussey
Burgh's peerage. I had prepared a commercial despatch which I shall
delay for some days, but it will pass through your hands. General
Burgoyne's letter was transmitted by me desiring leave» and I have this
day received a refusal of it ; which I shall send, and it will probably
end in his resignation, of which I will give you the earliest notice that
you may apprize Cuninghame of it."

The Sahe to the Same.

1782, December 31, 11 at night. Dublin Castle.— "I trust to
the post to tell yon that I have received your letter of the 25th
this morning, that I am contented (if those professions are strictly
adhered to,) but that I think it indispensible that you should remain
where you are, to await all circumstances: and to attend to every
proposed alteration ; and I see no one use in your journey hither which
can in the least compensate for the risk attending any possible change
of measures. You will easily guess how happy I should be to express
to yon in person what I feel, but I must suspend my curiosity, and
every other feeling in hopes that you will not have left town before this
reaches yon ; and, if so, do not stir, but send me the proposed draught
as soon as you can. What have we not gained by that spirit of
independence which has here carried everything ? "

The Same to the Same.

1783, January 2. Dublin Castle. — " The mail of last night brought
me your letter of the 27th, and the messenger brought your despatches
of the 28th. I see your difficulty respecting the words Upper House
of Parliamenty but at the time that I sent them I was not so thoroughly
mformed of Lord Thurlow*s determination. I therefore truly hope that
you have suppressed the despatch, as I now think that it would be
imprudent to hazard it ; and the words appeal and courts of law clearly
reach the point which I had in view. I cannot say that the despatch
from Mr. Townshend is quite explicit and satisfactory; but it has given

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me the means of choosing to understand him to have recognised all the
claims of Ireland, and I can allow for his difficalties with othersi as he
means fairly to give us all we ask on .that head ; but this want of
explicit clearness makes it more necessary to watch every motion. ITou
will see that he promises to communicate the draught to me ; I wish
that you may see it so as to give you the means of writing to me your
thoughts, and you will see that I particularly dwell upon the necessity
of being so prepared as not to hazard the putting off the Bill from the
21st> as such a measure would have the worst effects. Upon the whole
I am very little pleased with this transaction. There is an insincerity
in every part of it which very little encourages any species of confidence.
We must therefore be singularly attentive to every proceeding ; and, in
the present instance, the stick is so completely cleft that I think we
must play our cards very ill if they escape ; and, at all events, I will not
commit myself for any evasion or equivocation. Perry's (Pery's) letter
is indeed very explicit to me in every sense of the word; and, if
engagements are binding, we clearly hold him, and the solution is easy
between the rival powers who are all angry with each other ; so, upon
that head, we have no further trouble.

^' I must now wish you to state to Townshend my mortification at the
answer I receive touching Hussey Burgh's peerage. My request was
that he might either immediately have it, or have an assurance that he
should be created whenever Parliament met. I stated his merits ; and
I likewise stated that the legal questions now thrown upon that House,
upon appeals from the Lord Chancellor and from Lord Annally, would
leave that discussion to one law opinion only, and both of them worn out.
When I therefore state it is indispensible to the justice of the kingdom,
to the dignity of the House of Peers, that legal assistance should be given,
to them, and when I added the advantage I should draw from his abilities,
from his character, and from his infiueDce over a large party, I little ex-
pected to have this evasive answer, which pledges nothing but leaves me
totally unsupported. How is it possible that I can give it to Lord Chief
Baron withfout] hazarding those unpleasant reflections which will
naturally inmience every part of his future conduct. The King must
consider that I have parried every other application, bat he must enable
me to secure to his service those who can be useful to it ; and for that
he must give me credit, or else cLctum est.

" As to Cuninghame, you know) that the extent of my affection
to him certainly does not lead me, nor could for a moment
make me pin my faith or my residence here upon his promotion;
but I own myself at a loss to imagine why Townshend wishes to
state the impracticability of my naming a Commander in Chief, as
being a thing unusual, when he must recollect the case of Buigoyne's
appointment. I wished to have Cuninghame because I thought him
agreeable to the King, and because I knew he could be usefiS to the
army here which he so long (in fact) commanded. Bat his silence
upon this and the other persons, some of whom I recommended
for the staff, makes me imagine that they consider the army as an
appointment independent of the Lord Lieutenant, and to that idea I
never will submit ; and I will add that I explained that idea to Lord
Shelbume before I came over. It always has been matter of jealousy,
and with reason ; for the business of Ireland cannot exist under two
masters ; and the stoongest proof of this is that even Lord Harcourt^
under all the circumstances which you so well know, first was obliged
to force out General Elliott, and then to resign himself. Judge then
how necessary my fullest acquiescence must be in the appointment, and

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bow I shall feel to have an improper temper put in upon me. This is
all on a supposition that Burgojne is to resign . . I have seen
much of the Archbishop of Cashell this morning. His language of
support is most cordial, and decided, and clear as to the necessity of our
measure; in the strongest termv reprobating the possibility of finding any
set of men who would undertake English claims after such a direliction.
^^ As to the Order, Townshend's despatch calls for the names. I have
therefore delayed my answer till I can prepare it, but you may in
confidence shew him the enclosed list, which will probably be submitted.

Duke of Leinster • Earl of Clanricarde +

Earl of Antrim + Earl of Westmeath •

Earl of Inchiquin • Ear! of Drogheda

Earl of Tyrone + Earl of Shannon •

Earl of Clanbrassil + Earl of Charlemont +

*Earl of Hillsborough Earl of Mornington

Earl of Bective Earl of Courtown

Earl of Ely • + Earl Nugent •

" You will observe that no particular party or description of men is
here marked out ; but I have confined myself to Earls because, if we go
lower, I do not see what line can be drawn between numbers whose pre-
tensions are equal, and the first institution being confined to Earls puts
it on a higher footing. I mean that the Viscounts and Barons shall be
informed that they will be equally candidates in future. It is confined
to resident Earls, except in two instances ; Lord Courtown, by which 1
mean a particular attention to the King, and Lord Nugent, which last
needs no comment. I shall be ready to send over the statutes, badge,
in a few days, and would wish that the installation might take place on
St. Patrick's day, the 25 March. Those marked with the dots have
been already informed of it ; the others marked with a cross I shall send
to ; and the others I shall pause upon till the King's pleasure ; but
Lord Bellamont, who ended last session the advocate of Mr. Flood, must
be objected to till he has expiated his offence. If his Majesty would
give the riband to one of his younger family, it would add to the honour
of the riband, and might lead, at some future day, to establishing an
immediate connexion between the Royal family and the Government
of Ireland, in case the King should wish to send any one of the Princes
as Lord Lieutenant ; and, if so, the Sovereign and the young Prince
added to the knights would fill 18 stalls. I would propose to establish
two House of Commons offices of Secretary and Register with fees, but
no salaries ; and two Bishops as Church officers ; and I must likewise
be allowed to name two heralds (of which we have none) with fees but
no salaries ; but the detail of these playthings, as you truly call them, is
hardly serious."

" Brooke has communicated to me a strange collection of facts gathered
from the Stockport manufacturers whom he has engaged from Derry ;
in some parts clearly true, but in others charging respectable persons as
concerned in the plan ; and has just now given me a letter from a mer-
chant in Deny requesting them to come thither to embark on board a
ship named and cleared for New York, but bound for Philadelphia.
The artists have refused, and the ship shall be watched and searched at
leaving the port ; but I do not send the story officially to Townshend

* Ton will smile at this name, but I am told that he has always spoke in the
strongest maimer of au Order as a thing he wished, and his language of support both
to me and of me has been unequivocal.

r 67609. M

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out of regard to Burke, whom J cannot but think falselj accused.
You maj, however, shew it ; but return it to me, as the names at Derry
are material."

The Same to the Same.

1783, January 3. Dublin Castle. — " I have just received your letter,
and have enclosed to you a despatch which will only operate upon the
Cabinet in proportion to the degree of candour with which they mean
to act in this business. You will see, by my last letter, that I had made
allowances for the difficulties under which Townshend wrote tlie last
despatch ; but the obscurity of it made it necessai*y for me to understand
it as I diose ; and I trust that you will think that I have given the
Cabinet the change in the manner in which I hAve accepted their inten-
tions. I shall be son^y that you should have delivered the despatch re-
commending the insertion of the words Upper House of Parliament^
as I think that it will strengthen Lord Thurlow's ground, of which I
was not informed when I wrote it; but, however, be it as it may, the
great point must be carried, and explicitly; or else [ neither will nor
can remain ; and I wish you to press upon Townshend the imprac-
ticability of their new Lieutenant succeeding. Lord Shannon. Archbishop
of Cashel, Lords Tyrone, Clements, Carleton,and the Provost [of Trinity
College] have all been spoken to by me, and the supposition has been
stated as what might have happened if the point had not been yielded ;
and their opinions have been asked whether any or what stand could
be made. They have all disclaimed the practicability of my holding my
ground without further recognition ; and they have all agreed that my
quitting the government upon these given grounds would have rendered
it impossible for my successor to find one man who would support
English claims. Scott has been spoken to (you know the channel) and
agrees in every iota of this. I must therefore again repeat that the
Cabinet has not a choice.

^' As to the mode of bringing on the business. I think it cannot
be better done than in the sketch which you have sent; but .it is
worth while to consider whether the declaration of what England
meant by the repeal may. not draw on very unpleasant consequences,
as our opponents (and quere the Scotch party) may deny this
truth. But in this, so much depends upon the temper of the House,
and of the people, that I hardlv dare hazard an opinion except that
/ will make no further proposition of bill or mode ; and you are at
liberty to communicate what you will in confidence to Townshend ; but
I feel myself too illused to hazard anything further than a state of facts ;
and having submitted one idea which they wish (if they dare) to parry,
I will make them responsible for the consequences ; and nothing short
of the preamble, or the substance of it unequivocal^ will be received by
me as a measure, in Townshends words, likely to quiet the apprehensions
of the people of Ireland, You will remember that no part of this
suspicion of bad faith applies to Mr. Townshend, to whom I feel as I
ought for his candour and generosity, so much of a piece with what I
have always found in him ; but I wish that, in return for his open proofs
of friendship, that you will read to him the former part of this letter,
that he may know most clearly all that I feel. I hope that the draft
will be returned to me in time ; but remember that this is the 4th ;
that you will not receive this till the 8th at soonest ; and think how
near own time approaches ; and, trust me, no consideration shall make
me remain if Government adjourns that day which is fixed."

" I have heard nothing from Bnrgoyne ; but I h i\re this day heard
from Cuuinglu&me. He says, the King's graciousness to me has from-

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the beginning thoroughly tnarked his intentions^ and I have nothing to
beg of your Excellency but to employ me as you please . . This
seems as if there was in reality a wheel within that which is moving
according to the language of Townshend; but upon this I am not
interested au derrier point; though I shall look upon the refusal of this
arrangement as a proof that my word is not currect in Israel ; and I
shall likewise think it leads to another discovery, that the King non e

The Same to the Same.

1783, January 13, 12 p,m. Dublin Castle. — " I did not answer your
letter which I received on Thursday, in momentary oxpectation of the
account of your conversation with Lord Camden. Yesterday brought
me two mails but no letter from you ; but an account of another boat
being at sea, who had sailed 48 hours before them with a messenger.
After some suspense he arrived and brought to me the very satisfactory
despatch of the 7th; satisfactory in every thing but in the official
•communication of what is now clearly the intention of the Cabinet,
to give us the thing fairly and explicitly. But you will see, by my
despatch to Townshend, my wish about the title of the proposed Bill
which should parry Lord Beauchamp's intention ; und the title or
recognition is in fact the whole of the business. It might run, a Bill
to recognise the sole and exclusive right of His Majesty and the
Parliament of Ireland to make laws to bind the people of that realm
and to prevent . . This would be ample, and, as I take the words of
the preamble, would I hope be clear of difficulty ; and therefore I wish
to press it through you.

'^ You will see much detail in my letter to Lord Shelbume, of which
I wish you to take notes. The letter was begun some time ago
and nearly finished, but suppressed from want of confidence. I
have had much conversation with the Post Office upon the question
of the two offices, and the probable value of the cession ; and, from
the arrangements thrown out, I fancy that both countries may be
considerable gainers. In the mean time you may quiet Lord Shelburne's
fears of losing a revenue by referring him to the Post Office, where he
will see that Ireland never paid 8,000/. per annum clear of all expenses ;
but upon this I will write specifically, and likewise upon the Spanish
and Portuguese impositions. The hop question must be settled in
England, and a detailed account of that business has been sent some
days since to the Treasury, where you may see it. I agree fully with
Lord Shelburne upon the necessity of a commercial settlement ; much
remains there to be done, and many questions are involved in the
consideration. The Navigation Act will stand as a material barrier
against the trade of Ireland with the British settlements, as she cannot
export any part of their produce to England ; a restriction the isore
extraordinary as it would be imagined that England would by the same
Act equally be restrained from export of those articles to Ireland ; l»ere
is a material point to be regulated. As to the pension list, I will have
my state copied out for you, and he will see our difficulty.

*•' In the contingency of war, I should much dissuade the meeting of
our Parliament, as we have still 60,000/. applicable to raising men ; and,
if they will indulge me with the mode, I think that we might get as
many at least as we should even if Parliament exerted themselves to the
utmost ; but I do not lose sight of the dissolution, but, on the conirarjr,
still think it is a measure well calculated for February next.

" My despatches contain the list of names, and, by the statutes, the
Lord Lieutenant will fill the Sovereign's stall, which will leave our

M 2

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nttmber 15 ; and the young Prince will still diminiBh this to 14. I see
yonr difficnltj, bat I own that I see no reason to dread any discontent
from the Viscounts or Barons who will be, of course, eligible in future.
Nolo Privy Councillari rode a high horse ; but I thought his name of
moment, and wrote him an official letter stating the public grounds
upon which it was offered ; but you must see Mornington and propose
it to him, as I do not send an official letter to him knowing that he
will like it better from you. I enclose you an official letter to Lord
Drogheda which you will direct, as I know not where he is in £ngland ;
and the same to Lord Courtown, which you will send or not as you
think necessary ; but you will see that the favour is sold to Townshend,
and by my mode of bringing in the King's name, I think that it will be
stated to him.

" I enclose to you a letter to my brother ; read it that you may regulate
your language accordingly upon Lord S[helburne's] conduct, and then
seal it carefully, and send it to him without appearing to have seen it*
You will see that there were in his letter expressions which have drawn
on a species of retort on the regard paid by Fox to domestic ties ; of
which, to be sure. Lord E. Spencer and he are palpable proofs.

" I have discovered much of iniquity in the Barrack Board ; and Lord
Shannon has behaved like an angel, and, with his fall approbation,
Adderley is dismissed. The office is in fact in being, though nominally
suppressed, and this will enable me to place Cuffe responsible at the

** I just now learn that the Statutes . . cannot be prepared in time
for this mail."

The Same to the Same.

1783, January 15. [Dublin Castle.] Secret, — ^*'Thave read , your
letter of the 8th, and of tlie 10th, with an indignation proportioned
to the disgraceful and scandalous equivocation and delay. The
winds have again delayed the messengert and 1 have barely time to
send the despatch enclosed so as to ensure (if possible) its arrival prior
to the 21st. This despatch speaks my reelings, but does not speak
them fully, from personal considerations to Townshend to whom it
is officially addressed ; but I mean to convey my sense of the ill
treatment which I have received in deferring their Gabinat certainly
till the 18th, possibly till one o'clock on the 21st, and upon a question
as nice and as interesting to the public as that of America ; and to me
involving my honour, which, since they will not consider, I will take
care of, I have made my proposal ; if they will accede to the principle
explicitly, I care not for the words ; but J have told them in plain terms
that I suspect them, and that nothing short of that which every

Online LibraryJohn Bevill Fortescue Baron William Wyndham Grenville GrenvilleThe manuscripts of J.B. Fortescue ...: preserved at Dropmore [being ... → online text (page 24 of 71)