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much better job, because I feel quite certain
there are a number of the members of this Conven-
tion will probably like to appear before some com-
mittee, sometimes, which they may not be a member
of. And, if you have a lot of committees meeting,
you're going to find yourself in a very difficult
position, sometimes, in making those committee
meetinas that you would like to make. So, as a
result of my observation of this particular amend-
ment, I would suggest that we vote down this par-
ticular amendment and stay with the eight that
we've got and utilize our subcommittees to divide
up the subject matters, which can be taken care
of. Now I can see it, if we have a committee of,
say, fifteen on the Education and Welfare, that
it might be very easy to have a committee of sever
of those that will consider nothing but education
at some particular time and maybe the rest of
them consider something else; but, at least, the
whole committee will have to pass on it. I think
we'll net a much, much better Constitution that
way than trying to have a committee for every sub-
ject matter that we may discuss during this Con-
vention.



Furtf



)iscussi



-berg



Chai



nd fe



;gate



support of Representative Leitl-
amendment. I'm quite sure we're all aware of the
amount of work that went into the completion of
these rules and the intent of the Rules Committee
to limit the number of committees that we'd have
so that all of us could participate. However,
there is one thing that the Rules Commi t tee - couldn
do, nor can any other coiiinittee: sit here or stand
here and tell us how much work will be involved
in the final completion of the few pages that will
go into this new Constitution. I have in my hand
here einht type-written pages which are the result
of about four and a half months - or, possibly,
two hundred and fifty hours - of intensive work
in a committee of sixteen who have researched all
facets of higher education with the hope that it
could come up with something that would be better
than Act 71-2, which will take effect in January of
1974, unless this Convention comes up with some-
thing better. As you now know, the Board of
Regents would take effect then. Many of us feel
that this is an imperfect act, although the intent
is good. I think that, in order to accomplish
the objectives that have been set forth not only
by the Rules Committee, but in order to fulfill
the desires of the people throughout this state,
that it be our responsibility to give everyone,
as well as the delegates to this Convention, an
opportunity to participate in depth. I can
assure you that if we adopt the ten to twenty-man
or women committee that we don't have enough peopl
to staff the particular committee, in which we
are referring to, unless we divide it. Thank you,
and I urge your support for a favorable adoption
of this.



Further



scussi



Mr. B urson I speak in opposition to the amendmen
for' t'he reason that I believe that the argument
that, because so much of the state budget is de-
voted to education that we need a separate com-
mittee, is spurious for this reason: We are not
here to confect a state budget, but a Constitution
The copy of the Constitution that I have here in
my hand contains Article XII on public education,
twenty-one pages framed. Now there are other



[88]



I



4th Days Proceedings — Januai'v 16, 1973

allusions to pub! i c educa ti on in the Constitution, ide

but the main article dealing with public education tha

in the present Constitution is twenty-one papes

out of the seven hundred-odd paces in the present Further Discussion

Constitution. I think it is obvious, therefore,

that if we create a separate Committee on Education, Mrs. Corne Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen,

that their tendency would probably be to lengthen deleaates, I rise in opposition to the proposed

this twenty-one pages that we have, rather than amendment. I don't like to see education isolated.

to decrease it. I imagine that ninety percent of I think educators and the departments of education-

you here ran on the same platform that I did - that the different departments of educat i on - are very

we were going to cut down the size of the Constitu- much concerned with welfare, with civil service,

tion. I submit to you that, if you vote for an with labor, and other facets of government. I

amendment creating a separate Committee on Educa- think that the Rules Committee has done a very

tion, you're going to be doing the opposite of good job of assigning these eight different com-

the platform that you ran on. mittees, and I do not feel that we should add



Further Discussion
-tker Mr. Chairman and ladies and oentl



thank you.

Question



Mr.


Si


Iverbei


'0


Mrs


. C


orne


Ve


Mr.


Si


Iverbei


rq



of the Convention, I rise to speak in opposition Mr. Silverberg I meant to ask this question of

to the amendment. I think that public education Mr. Aertker. I ask it of you also. We are all

is directly related to the other areas that you familiar with Rule No. 53 which limits the size

have already included on this committee. Since of each of the substantive committees. Do you

this is the first time I've had the occasion to think that twenty people, which is the maximum

speak to this gathering, I would like to add my we could have on this committee, is an adequate

compliments to the tremendous job that the Rules number to serve the Constitutional Convention and

Committee has done for this Convention. But, do the job that we will be assigned, if we happen

certainly, welfare and, certainly, labor and in- to be assigned to this committee?
dustry are a definite part of education; and,

when we start talking about all of the different Mrs. Corne Yes, sir; I believe that the people

segments of education being included in the Con- who would be assicned to this committee would

stitution, I would hope that one of the things naturally be people who would wish to be on the

that we don't write into the Constitution is pro- committee and who would be very much interested

visions dealing with special education and PTA ' s in the work of the committee. I feel that these

and all the other matters, that we develop a people, of course, would realize that many of

Constitution that will give some protection to the issues are clear-cut issues. And I do think

public education in this state, and that we pro- that the Rules Committee has done a pood job,

vide a broad general outline of the duties and and I do think that a twenty-member committee

the responsibilities of this government to pro- could do the job of this,
vide certain types of education. We are trying,

by this amendment, in my opinion, really to Mr. Silverberc This is no reflection on the

isolate education as an operation in this state. Rules Committee, but are you familiar with the

and I think it is directly connected with the size of the Coordinating Council for Higher Educa-

areas that it has on the committee. I request tion?
that you vote against this amendment.

Quest

It's a large committee.

against this amendment; is Mrs. Corne Very.

ire you familiar with how many

years it took this Council to put together a
program thct just is beginning to reach into educa-
tion? Are you familiar with the size of the edu-
cation committees in the House and the Senate or
the Joint Legislative Committee on Higher Educa-
tion? They are large committees from which I
can understand; is that correct?
Mr. Champagne That's the point I wanted to put.

Mrs. Corne Yes sir. I also realize that there
Further Discussion is a lot of background information that can be

qotten - very good information that can be gotten -
Mr. Fontenot Mr. Chairman, fellow delegates, from these people - these committees.
I rise in support of this amendment, and I'm going

to give you some of my own personal observations Mr. Silverberg Well, in other words, you're
concerning this particular issue we are facing positive that we can get the job done with the
now. I also commend the Rules Committee on its size of the committee,
work in proposing eight substantive committees,

but I feel that Delegate Leithman's proposal is Mrs. Corne Yes, sir, I feel that way.
a good one. My own personal feeling is that the

Departments of Education and Welfare, Consumer [previous (Question ordered.]

Affairs and Civil Service, Labor and Industry - I

think it's just too broad and just too big for Closing

somewhere around sixteen or eighteen to twenty

people to handle. I don't feel like subcommittees Mr. Leithman Mr. Chairman and fellow delegates,
could handle it either. I think it would actually I'd like to just touch on a couple of items,
take one whole committee to handle public educa- Firstly, Mr. De Blieux mentioned a couple of
tion, all facets of education. This Is my own things here. I think the magic number eight In
personal opinion. I rise, like I said, in sup- the Rules Committee is not necessarily binding,
port of the amendment, and I think one more com- I think if the Rules Committee were to come up
mittee is not going to hurt that much. Of course, with the number twelve, we would have had the
I see the tendency to maybe start breaking up every same arguments. I am certainly In agreement with
committee and adding on new ones, but I'mnot for fewer committees; however, I don't think the magic
adding on many new committees. But I th1nk - 1n number eight is of any consequence. Mr. Oe Blieux
this particular instance - ! think It's a good mentioned that he's been In the legislature for



Champagne And would you. .


.are you


Jent of education in one of


these pai


Aertker East Baton Rouqe,


yes.



4th Days Proceedings— January 16, 1973

many years, and he indicated that - or I received
the indication that - this was a desirable way of
handling this matter, and I've got to take issue
because': have here a resolution by every legis-
lator that is now and has been keenly interested
in education. They have a resolution here - the
chairman of both committees, vice-chairmen of both
committees, people that have been active in the
Southern Regional Education Conferences, every
phase and every conference of education. This is
a resolution signed by those people, submitting
to you that the children and education be handled
separately in this Convention. I've got to compli-
ment Mr. Silverberg on his study of the LSU report.
I think it indicates just how this should be handled
Mr. Burson, I've got to apologize. I misled you,
Mr. Burson, on the state budget. I did not give
the state budget as any basis; apparently, I didn't
make myself clear. The dollar certainly isn't a
basis for our breaking this committee up. I
merely tried to indicate to you the vast scope
tnat education has - and, I think, related to the
moneys expended - bu t I certainly didn't want to
mislead you and indicate that education, because
of money, should be handled. It is because the
future of Louisiana is in education. Number two,
you may have twenty-one pages, but in my research,
these are the volumes in our Constitution that
relate to education. Each page here is an educa-
tion item, and it's not twenty-one pages. So,
gentlemen, I just feel that in something so
definite as a revision of our Constitution, we
certainly must look into and listen to the people
around the sta te - spec ial education, our careers -
and I'm not going to go over and over. Our univer-
sity people will be wanting to appear before you.
This would take literally months and months, and
I've been through it. And on that basis, I ask
that you handle education separately from the
other facets that appear in your rules. Thank
you for your attention.

[Amendment rejected: viva voce.]

Amendments

Mr. Poynter The next set of amendments, taking



them in order as they would arrive within the
rule, are sent up by Mr. Tapper, amending the
original resolution as follows:

Amendment No . 1 .

On page 14, at the end of line 29 - page 14,
end of line 29 - delete the semicolon ";" and add
the following:

", and any other subject deemed appropriate
by said committee,".

There is a similar amendment at the end of
each appropriate committee assignment: page 14,
line 33; page 15, line 1; page 15, line 5; page 15,
line 9; page 15 line 13; page 15, line 17; page 15,
line 23. The similar language is added: ", and
any other subject matter deemed appropriate by
said committee,".

Explanation

Mr. Ta pper Mr. Chairman, fellow delegates, the
amendment simply does what I think Mr. Stagg said
the Rules Committee intended to do, and that is
that to divide. ..It doesn't add any committees;
it leaves the number of committees at eight, but
what it does is to allow you, as a member of any
one of these eight committees, to go into any
other subject that the committee by majority vote
deems appropriate. Now what that means to me is
this. I want to commend the Rules Committee,
also, on a wonderful job that they have done. I
think they had a real tough time in trying to
title these committees and also in specifying
under those titles what these committees would
study. However, the word "shall" in each com-
mittee designation or explanation to me means -
or it may mean - that these are the only things
that can be considered by these respective com-
mittees. And the only thing that my amendment
will do is to authorize these committees to go

1901



into - well, let's say in the case of the Judiciary,
which does not talk about justices of the peace
or constables; I think that there was an amendment
here about constables or somebody else - in this
event, the respective committee could go into
that particular phase of the present Constitution.
They could also go into other phases. There was
an amendment proposed by someone else to the effect
that we should not be considering only those things
that are in the Constitution, but possibly those
things that are not in the Const i tut ion - maybe
like taking one of the departments out, which I'm
not saying we should do that. We should have
the right, as the Convention of the people, to go
into other matters, matters other than are in the
present Constitution. And I'll ask your favorable
support of my amendment.



IXbu



Question



Mr. Tapper, don't you believe that
you put some safeguards on this amendment
that you might have various committees duplicating
studies? I mean, you say "or any other matter
the committee desires." Well, you could have
several committees taking up the same subject
matter, if you don't have some provisions on your
amendment to eliminate that or to prevent that from
happeni ng?

Mr. Tapper It's very possible. Senator Rayburn,
and I think that's the reason the Rules Committee
went into the Coordinating Committee principle.
But the Coordinating Committee, in my understanding,
could have only ten members. If we adopt another
rule, which is coming up a little later, that our
committees will have from ten to twenty members,
and six members who don't want to go into anything
else that is in this Constitution, other than
what's in this Constitution, could very likely
say, "Well, we're not going to allow any other
committee to go into anything else, if they happen
to get on the Coordinating Committee. And yes,
it could be broad and it could have some duplica-
tion, but I think that every member of this Con-
vention should be authorized, and every committee
should be authorized, to go into whatever subject
they deem necessary. Because, remember, we're
only going to be on one committee apiece. Now,
suppose you are on a committee that isn't studying
judiciary, but you have something that you want
in judiciary or you think should or should not
be in the judiciary. Now, of course, you can
introduce a resol ut ion - or a proposal, rather -
and that will be sent to this Committee on the
Judiciary, but you will not be a member of that
committee." Your proposal could be killed in
that committee, and when it gets to the floor of
this house, you'd have a hard time overruling
that committee.

Mr. Velazquez First, as a member of the Rules
Committee, I'd like to thank you for your sugges-
tion; however, we felt that we. ..do you feel that
we covered this sufficiently and allowed sufficient
balance in line 21, on page 15 - "other provisions
that may not be covered by the areas of responsibil-
ity shown above may be assigned by the Coordinating
Committee to the appropriate substantive committee"
- and on page 17, line 16, and following, "The
Coordinating Committee shall consider any issues
regarding omissions, overlap, and/or conflict
which might arise concerning the jurisdiction of
any substantive committee or on any subject matter,
call joint meetings of any substantive committee
for the purpose of discussing any omissions,
overlap and/or conflict which might arise and
make recommendations to the respective substantive
committees as the possible resolution thereof"?

Mr. Tapper No sir, I do not think the problem
that I'm presenting to you is covered by that.
That's the Coordinating Committee which could
have only ten members on it, if we adopt the fol-
lowing resolution forthcoming, which means that
six members who may not want to go into anything



4th Days Proceedings— January IG, 1973

else other than what is in the present Constitution itself. So, in effect, it does negate Rule No. 44
could say that they are not going to delegate this if not negate, at least poses some very serious
authority to any particular substantive committee. problems in terms of how do we refer certain mat-
ters to substantive committees. Wouldn't you say?
Kr. Velazquez We also have a stipulation that,



when something goes before a committee, it must Hr. Tapper I don't think it negates it, Mr.
make a decision. There's no way that they could Jackson, but I do believe that it may affect it,
just bottle up the point that you would raise to somewhat, to this extent that the committee member
them. on either of the eight committees, or any of the

eight committees, will be able to go into other
Tapper I understand that too, but I don't matters than are specified in the language under



think that addresses itself to the problem that that particular heading.
I am presenting to you. The problem I'm present-
ing to you is this: I would like to see every Mr. Burson Mr. Tapper, isn't it true that under
member of this delegation, or this Convention, the rule that Representative Jackson just alluded
be able to propose any subject before a committee. to, if I had a delegate proposal that was assigned
You know, we also have adopted a rule which says to one committee and I thought it should be assicn
that a committee can make proposals. Now, if a to another, that I could object and ask the Con-"
committee cannot go into any other area than is vention to have it assigned to the committee I
specified under the particular committee heading, thought it should go to?
then how can that committee make any proposals
in that area other than that which is specified?
I don't think it's covered by the Coordinatina
Committee. The Coordinating Committee could be
composec' of people who don't want to go any furth
than we want to go.

MOuld you be agreeable to



Mr.
maj
the
it


Tapper Yes,
ority vote, as

committee tha
to.


t the


the Conven!
erstand it
convention


Lion could by
, send it to. . .
wants to send


Mr.
tF?

you


Burson Don '
n, in the rule
Id cover to a


t you
that
great
t h you


think that this proposal
we have already adopted,
extent the problem that
r proposed amendment?


Mr.


Tapper No,


I don'
elf ca
1 with
ike to


t think it
n submit a
the situal
go into ar


would, because


the
com


committee its

trying to dea

mittee would 1


proposal , and
tion where the
lother area.


Mr.


Duval


1 Mr. Tapper,
>ules setting
id not give the
! power, merely
id that as bein


is it youi
up the Cooi
Coordinaf
suggestive
g what the


- understanding


that the
mittee d-
directivi
understar


"dinatinq Com-
ing Committee
; power. Do yoi
rule says?



adding to your amendment, which reads, "and any
other subject matter deemed appropriate by sa
commi ttee" - add the follwoing words: "under t
general descriptive name of such committee" s
that on the Committee on the Judiciary, any it
ters which the Judiciary Committee would cons
to be under their jurisdiction, they could pr
consider, but not consider a matter, for'inst
on education or welfare. Would you be agreea
to such an amendment?

Mr. Tapper I don't think that would do what
want it to do, Chalin, but maybe a subsequent
ment can be proposed to that effect. My initial

intention of proposing the amendment is to allow... Mr. Tapper I think you're right, Mr. Duval.
it's my understanding the Rules Committee decided

that we should not have too many committees. They Mr. Duval Thank you, sir. And do you see any-
decided that eight was a fairly good number be- thing in these rules which would preclude a corn-
cause of the number of delegates to the Convention. - mittee from suggesting something that may not
tach delegate should be on one of these committees, be specifically germane to the article creating it?
and only one of these substantive committees. I

feel that the Rules Committee felf that they had Mr. Tapper I see the word "shall"; yes sir, I

to divide these committees into eight different do; and that word "shall", bothers me.
areas. But I don't think that the Rules Committee

and others in this Convention feel that if you're Mr. Duval Do you see anything else which might

on the Judiciary that you should not be able to preclude it, since the Coordinating Committee

go into the area of education or the area of the can only suggest?
executive or the legislative. And, really, my

intent is not so much - and I thank you for your Mr. Tapper No, you're talking about the Coordinat

suggestion. Maybe, if this one doesn't pass as ing Committee suggesting something in addition

it is - because this one is broader than the one to what is listed under these particular topics,

you suggested - i f it doesn't pass as it is, I And the word "shall" in there means to me - I may

would like to offer the other amendment. But I be i ncorrec t - bu t the word means to me that this

believe that we should have this amendment adopted. is all they can go into.

Mr. Avant Mr. Tapper, do you think that the Mr. Sutherland Mr. Tapper, I'm a little bit

amendment which you offer is not just permissive, concerned as to what do you mean when you say

but that it actually invites and encourages these "shall go into the subject matter." What do you

committees to be running off in all and any direc- have reference to? Are you planning to have a

tion that they want to? committee, several committees, reporting out dif-
ferent subject matter, or are you planning to have

Mr. Tapper I don't think it does that, Mr. Avant, a committee consider the question and refer it to

but if it does, I'm glad that I proposed it be- the appropriate committee as determined by the

cause that is exactly what we're here for. rules?

Mr. J. Jackson Mr. Taoper, besides the fact that Mr Tapper Well, I'm not really planning any-

it makes it permissive on the part of the committee, thing, Mr. Sutherland, but by mv amendment, 1 hope

wouldn't you say that, in effect, it negates Rule to accomplish this: that any committee can go into

No. 44 - which I assume we've adopted - tha t says subjects that are not listed in under those titles

that when it comes to the matter of referrals. I and whether they submit them to other committees

can envision a situation whereby, you know, we or whether they submit a proposal to the Conven-

have to refer information, refer a proposal to a tion by the committee would be left up to the

certain committee. And if this Convention decides majority of that committee.

that it goes to one committee over another, your I move for adoption of my amendment.

rule would still then allow that committee to be

very permissive and say: well, we recognize what Further Discussion

the Convention did, but we want to oo into that

area; we want to deal with that particular subject Mr. Roy Delegates to the Convention, I rise in



[91]



4th Days Proceedings — January 16, 1973

opposition to this particular amendment. I do
think it's necessary. I think that with readi



could have notten by just with the designati
the name of each committee, because



39, which allows a majority of the com- criptive in itself. But, I just don't th



Online LibraryLouisiana. Constitutional Convention (1973)Records of the Louisiana Constitutional Convention of 1973 (Volume 5) → online text (page 25 of 165)