Natural Resources United States. Congress. House. Committee on Gover.

Regulatory reform : hearing before the Subcommittee on National Economic Growth, Natural Resources, and Regulatory Affairs of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, House of Representatives, One Hundred Fourth Congress, second session, February 9, 1996 online

. (page 1 of 17)
Online LibraryNatural Resources United States. Congress. House. Committee on GoverRegulatory reform : hearing before the Subcommittee on National Economic Growth, Natural Resources, and Regulatory Affairs of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, House of Representatives, One Hundred Fourth Congress, second session, February 9, 1996 → online text (page 1 of 17)
Font size
QR-code for this ebook


REGULATORY REFORM



Y4.G74/7;R 26/11/996

Regulatory Reforn^ Hearing/ 104-2...

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE OX XATIOXAI. ECOXOMIC GROWTH
XATURAI. RESOURCES, AND REGULATORY APTAIRS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT

REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION



FEBRUARY 9, 1996



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight




ff-'^.j



U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
'^^■'21 WASHINGTON : 1997



For sale by the U.S. Government Printing Office

Superintendent of Documents, Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 20402

ISBN 0-16-055218-4



<n T> 1 m



REGULATORY REFORM



Y 4.0 74/7: R 26/11/9%

Regulatory Reforn^ Hearingj 104-2...

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE OX NATIONAL ECONOMIC GROWTH,
NATURAL RESOURCES, A.ND REGULATORY AP^PAIRS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT

REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION



FEBRUARY 9, 1996



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight




U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
'*0-''21 WASHINGTON : 1997



For sale by the U.S. Government Printing Office

Superintendent of Documents. Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 2(M02

ISBN 0-16-055218-4



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT

WILLIAM F. CLINGER, Jr., Pennsylvania, Chairman
BENJAMIN A. OILMAN, New York CARDISS COLLINS, Illinois

DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRY A. WAXMAN, CaUfornia

J. DENNIS HASTERT, Illinois TOM LANTOS, California

CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia

CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut MAJOR R. OWENS, New York

STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York

ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida JOHN M. SPRATT, Jr., South CaroUna

WILLIAM H. ZELIFF, Jr., New Hampshire LOUISE McINTOSH SLAUGHTER, New
JOHN M. McHUGH, New York York

STEPHEN HORN, CaUfornia PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania

JOHN L. MICA, Florida GARY A. CONDIT, CaUfornia

PETER BLUTE, Massachusetts COLLIN C. PETERSON, Minnesota

THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia KAREN L. THURMAN, Florida

DAVID M. McINTOSH, Indiana CAROLYN B. MALONEY. New York

JON D. FOX, Pennsylvania THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin

RANDY TATE, Washington GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi

DICK CHRYSLER, Michigan BARBARA-ROSE COLLINS, Michigan

GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of

MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana Columbia

WILLIAM J. MARTINI, New Jersey JAMES P. MORAN, Virginia

JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida GENE GREEN, Texas

JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida

MICHAEL PATRICK FLANAGAN, IlUnois CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania

CHARLES F. BASS, New Hampshire BILL BREWSTER, Oklahoma

STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio TIM HOLDEN, Pennsylvania

MARSHALL "MARK" SANFORD, South

CaroUna BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont

ROBERT L. EHRLICH, Jr., Maryland (Independent)

James L. Clarke, Staff Director

Kevin Sabo, General Counsel

Judith McCoy, Chief Clerk

Bud Myers, Minority Staff Director



Subcommittee on National Economic Growth, Natural Resources, and
Regulatory Affairs

DAVID M. McINTOSH, Indiana, Chairman

JON D. FOX, Pennsylvania COLLIN C. PETERSON, Minnesota

J. DENNIS HASTERT, IlUnois HENRY A. WAXMAN, CaUfornia

JOHN M. McHUGH, New York JOHN M. SPRATT, Jr., South CaroUna

RANDY TATE, Washington LOUISE McINTOSH SLAUGHTER, New
GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota York

JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania

JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona GARY A. CONDIT, CaUfornia

ROBERT L. EHRLICH, Jr., Maryland CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida

Ex Officio

WILLIAM F. CLINGER, Jr., Pennsylvania CARDISS COLLINS, IlUnois

Mildred Webber, Staff Director

Karen Barnes, Professional Staff Member

David White, Clerk

Bruce Gwinn, Minority Professional Staff Member



(II)



CONTENTS



Page

Hearing held on February 9, 1996 01

Statement of:

Aprahamian, Vic 136

Berhow, Trent 142

Betts, Douglas 101

Beutke, Bill 129

Brentnall, Dale 143

Carl, Larry 106

Christensen, Amy 130

Christiansen, Ralph 115

CofFman, Kenneth 122

Dickey, Mark 147

Donley, Nancy 113

Eagle, Chip 133

Easier, Barbara 149

Gaudineer, Cecilia 109

Gray, Joe A., mayor, city of Manson, I A; Fletcher Reel, mayor, city
of Missouri Valley, lA; Dean Torreson, city administrator, Atlantic,
lA; L.D. McMullen, CEO and general manager, Des Moines Water
Works, Des Moines, lA; Robert Layton, city manager, city of Urbandale,

lA; and Thomas Hanafan, mayor, city of Council Bluffs, lA 68

Groenendyk, Mark 147

Herschman, Kristi 112

Herscovici, Saul 120

Houston, John 105

Houston, Wes, human resources manager, Johnson Machine Works, Inc.;
Loren Duchman, consultant, James B. Meehan, PE, PC; and Don Beal,

president, Beal Development Corp 8

Johnson, Harvey, farmer; David Wniton, owner, Whiton Feed and Milling
Co.; Richard Siegle, farmer; Howard Alff, farmer; Bill Willis, Soil Con-
servation Consultant; and Royal "Curly" Holtz, farmer 33

Juckette, Thomas 140

Klua, Darrell R 144

Kroeger, David 141

Kuennen, Keith 131

Loeckle, Kathy 119

Logan, Bill 107

Means, Sharon 118

Murphy, John 127

Nenstadt, Debbie 126

O'Neill, James R 135

Onstat, Nancy Ill

Oriatt, Steve 128

Pate, Paul, secretary of state, State of Iowa 2

Pope, Carla 137

Redman, Chet 114

Rice, Dick 116

Rowan, Don 139

Skeers, Jerome M 134

Swanson, Edward 110

Till-Retz, Roberta 124

Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:

Beal, Don, president, Beal Development Corp., prepared statement of 18

Betts, Douglas, prepared statement of 103

(HI)



IV

Page

Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by — Continued

Duchman, Loren, consultant, James B. Meehan, PE, PC, prepared state-
ment of 23

Gray, Joe A., mayor, city of Manson, lA, prepared statement of 70

Hanafan, Thomas, mayor, city of Council Bluffs, lA, prepared statement

of 93

Holtz, Royal "Curly", farmer, prepared statement of 59

Houston, Wes, human resources manager, Johnson Machine Works, Inc.,

prepared statement of 12

Johnson, Harvey, farmer, prepared statement of 35

Layton, Robert, city manager, city of Urbandale, lA, prepared statement

of 87

Reel, Fletcher, mayor, city of Missouri Valley, lA, prepared statement

of 76

Siegle, Richard, farmer, prepared statement of 47

Whiton, David, owner, Whiton Feed and Milling Co., prepared statement

of 41



REGULATORY REFORM



FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 9, 1996

House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on National Economic Growth,
Natural Resources, and Regulatory Affairs,
Committee on Government Reform and Oversight,

Des Moines, LA.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:03 a.m., in the
Hotel Fort Des Moines, 1000 Walnut Street, Des Moines, lA, Hon.
David Mcintosh (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Mcintosh, and Gutknecht.

Also present: Representatives Latham and Ganske.

StafT present: Mildred Webber, staff director; Karen Barnes, pro-
fessional staff member; David White, clerk; and Bruce Gwinn, mi-
nority professional staff member.

Mr. McIntosh. The Subcommittee on National Economic
Growth, Natural Resources, and Regulatory Affairs is called to
order.

Welcome. This is our 12th field hearing and it is great to be here
in Des Moines. Let me say thank you to Tom Latham for a great
field hearing he helped us organize yesterday and to Greg Ganske
for helping us put this together and hosting this field hearing
today.

As the first order of business, I ask unanimous consent from Gil
Gutknecht, the other subcommittee member, that Representative
Latham and Representative Ganske can join us as members of the
committee today.

Mr. Gutknecht. Without objection.

Mr. McIntosh. So ordered.

This is the 12th field hearing of the Subcommittee on Regulatory
Affairs. We decided early on we wanted to get outside of the belt-
way and listen to real Americans about problems in our regulatory
system and boy, have we heard an earful in these subcommittee
hearings. People who have lost their jobs, people who do not under-
stand why they have to raise their prices and make more costly
products all because of regulations that do not make sense, are
counter-productive, coming out of Washington, DC.

Oftentimes, we have heard from people who sincerely want to fol-
low the regulations and do the best they can to comply and still
engage in their business or farm their land, and they tell us, you
know, we hear different things from different agencies. I will never
forget a farmer in my home State of Indiana. A young lady named
Kay Whitehead came and testified that she ran a fairly good sized
pork production facility and disposed of the manure that her pigs

(1)



produced by spreading it out on her fields. The State Soil and Con-
servation Service would come to Kay and say, you know, you really
need to spread it on top of the fields but not plow it in because we
are worried about erosion and we want to protect the soil. Then the
State EPA would come by and tell Kay it is fine for you to spread
the manure but you really have to plow it in because we are wor-
ried about runoff and what that will do for the streams. Now, Kay
said she did not really care which regulation she followed, but she
knew whatever happened, she would be breaking the rules of one
of those two agencies. She did confide that her neighbors had a
strong preference for plowing it in. [Laughter.]

And those are the types of problems that average Americans are
encountering in our regulatory system. We are taking an inventory
of that. The testimony that will be given here today will be taken
back to Washington and become part of the official record.

Speaker Gingrich has created a new procedure in the House of
Representatives called Corrections Day where he allows Members
to bring forward bills to correct these problems in the regulatory
process. It is an expedited provision. You do not have a lot of
amendments and debate but you do get the chance to vote on the
bill on the House floor. And many of the ideas that we heard yes-
terday, and I anticipate today, would be excellent examples for Cor-
rections Day legislation.

Now before we begin hearing testimony from our panels, I would
like to recognize the Secretary of State of Iowa, Paul Pate, to make
a few opening remarks. Secretary Pate invited us to come in early
on. He mentioned that he had been going around the State and
hearing from a lot of businesses and farmers about the problems
of regulations here. I appreciate your help in facilitating this.
Thank you for welcoming us today and having us up to the State
Capitol earlier this morning.

Secretary Pate, could you share a few words with us?

STATEMENT OF PAUL PATE, SECRETARY OF STATE, STATE OF

IOWA

Mr. Pate. Thank you very much. Congressman. It is a pleasure
to have you in Iowa. I think the hearings yesterday in Sioux City
were a great beginning and I appreciate the support of Congress-
man Latham and Ganske and Congressman Gutknecht by coming
here and joining us.

The fact that we are here to share some stories and some experi-
ences of Iowa small businesses and what their concerns are I think
is very important. While I might be involved in politics, I feel I am
very well grounded in the real world because this is the third gen-
eration of my family being involved in the construction industry. I
own a small business of my own, a construction asphalt paving
firm in Hiawatha, lA and I know firsthand these struggles and the
frustrations that many of us go through in the business world and
that is what brings us here today, to make a genuine effort in try-
ing to make a difference in working for a better government and
a better system.

I have filled out those boxes of government forms to get through
a contract. In this case, it was an Army Corps of Engineering
project, a very small contract. But literally boxes full of forms, if



you can picture these, and the paperwork that was involved in that
and the months of waiting for payment. I went through the chal-
lenge of meeting a payroll, and operating that same company, you
had to make the same tough decisions many business people do in
operating that company. And it makes it difficult if business be-
comes one of those burdens or one of those barriers — I mean — ex-
cuse me, government becomes that burden or that barrier because
we are trying to deal with our day-to-day operations. We are trying
to deal with how can we survive in the free market system, and
government needs to be a partner. And that is why I believe gov-
ernment can work together and become a team. I think government
can wear the white hat. I think they can be the good guy.

This past year, I have traveled the State meeting with business
owners and these business owners are community leaders. They
are very active in their own backyards and in over 50 meetings, I
have heard the frustrations of these real people in the real world
and I have listened to their commonsense solutions. The folks I
have met with are leaders in those communities and they are not
just evil business owners as some might want to paint them. They
do not want to destroy the environment; they do not want to hurt
their employees and they are not fly by-night owners working out
of a pickup truck or in some back alley. In many cases, they are
second or third generation owners hoping they can pass their busi-
ness or their farm on to their children. They are volunteers and
they are active in their communities, and I hope that someday that
they will have the opportunity to say that Iowa is truly the best
State to operate in and that is part of our efforts here.

Many of them have shared a common concern, a common frustra-
tion and even a common fear. They are honest and they want to
provide jobs at good wages. They want their communities to grow
and they want to hire more people. But they are also frustrated by
the government rules that do not make sense. They want to follow
those rules, and they understand the need for government's role,
and they cannot quite figure out why government sometimes acts
the way it does. And we are hoping through your hearings here
and through the efforts we are doing on the State level, we can put
some rationale in that process. Today's hearing should provide
some key insights on these issues and I want to give you a couple
of examples that I have heard from business owners.

The first example comes from a small business in western Iowa.
It is a crematory and they applied for an air permit and one of the
questions the agency asked this business was for them to put to-
gether a projection on air emissions for this new permit and they
had to do their projections based on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week,
365 days a year. Well, the crematory responded back by saying
wait a minute, I have already cremated everybody in Council
Bluffs, Sioux City and I am working my way toward Des Moines
and we are not even going to dent this one. I ask you, where is the
common sense? That is what we want to bring back to this process.

Another interesting story is about two smaJl towns in Rome and
Hillsboro, LA. Now they worked with the Federal Grovemment to
bring sewage services to their small towns of about 60 or 70 homes.
Engineers wanted to use several innovative designs, including a 6-
inch sewage pipe which could handle about 150 to 200 homes. The



Iowa DNR insisted they use an 8-inch pipe which could service 400
homes. Now, if they could have been allowed to use the new design
standards which other States including Nebraska, the two small
cities could have saved up to $200,000.

Now on a positive note, DNR has set up a pilot system to explore
alternative designs in 13 communities that are members of the
rural water system. Now, DNR has not agreed yet to allow towns
outside that system, like Rome and Hillsboro, to use these designs
and there are over 220 communities without sewers that could save
substantial money. This is an area where we at the State level
want to work with them to try to get that accomplished. The Fed-
eral Government has done the right thing. We need to deal with
our part of the challenge.

Now some have criticized my efforts in the regulatory reform at
the State level. They said that if a business operated honestly the
owner has nothing to fear. Well, I have met with hundreds of hon-
est business owners. These are stalwarts in their communities.
These are the business owners that want clean air because they
breathe the same air as their employees. They want clean water
because they drink the same water as their employees. They do not
want to hurt their employees. Their children play together; they go
to the same schools and attend the same churches and in many
cases, these owners work right alongside their employees under the
same conditions.

What can government do to become more user friendly? That is
part of this process here today. Let me share a few suggestions
that lowans have expressed to me.

One, consult with business owners before administrative rule-
making.

Two, establish a rules review process 5 years or sooner after im-
plemented.

Three, with industry review the Federal rules already on the
book.

And four, which I think is of particular interest from my back-
ground of business— customer service training for bureaucrats. Let
them see how their regulations affect business. Have them view a
part of their jobs as growing the economy.

Five, Iowa Department of Natural Resources and Department of
Economic Development have started to work together to assist new
Iowa businesses with environmental regulatory hurdles. We have
also gone to accelerated permitting process for basic air quality per-
mits and more general permitting. Please continue to let States de-
velop these innovative programs. These are working. Our State
government has partnered. They are wearing the white hat to try
to be the good guy in this case and I think they ought to be recog-
nized for that and encouraged to keep doing those things.

Six, while I am not an advocate for increasing government pro-
grams, in Iowa, we do have two very successful programs that work
with small business. The first helps a business fill out air permits.
The second works with businesses to cut down their waste. Both
of these successful programs are not run out of a bureaucratic gov-
ernment agency. They are run out of a State university. They are
not threatening to business and they are designed to work with the
businesses. They cannot fine or penalize. I think we should con-



sider using this successful model to restructure other Federal man-
dated programs. In Iowa, we are working together in an effort to
have jobs environment that promotes a partnership between gov-
ernment and business. I believe that government can wear the
white hat and with your help and the work we are going to do here
in Iowa, we will accomplish that.

I thank you for the opportunity to visit with you and hope your
stay here is very positive and very beneficial. Thank you.

Mr. McIntosh. Thank you very much, Secretary Pate. I appre-
ciate your good work and hard efforts to tackle this problem here
in Iowa. It sets a good example for what can be done nationally.

Mr. Pate. Thank you.

Mr. McIntosh. Let me now call on our host, my colleague who
is a good friend. I must say the folks in Des Moines should be very
pleased and proud of Greg's work on your behalf and the freshman
class and the Republican Congress. Thank you for helping us orga-
nize this hearing and share with us your thoughts, Greg, on this
problem of regulatory relief.

Mr. Ganske. Well thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Secretary of
State had to leave, but I did want to thank him also.

We need to have cooperation between the Federal Grovernment,
the State government and the local governments. Just a few days
ago in Washington something unprecedented happened. The Na-
tion's Governors, both Republicans and Democrats, unanimously
agreed on a welfare and Medicaid reform package in consultation
with Congress. We will be dealing with that in the next couple of
weeks. That is the type of cooperation we need to have in the envi-
ronmental and the regulatory areas as well.

Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for calling this important
hearing. It is important because lowans will get a chance to give
their testimony without having to go to Washington.

Nationally, the cost of complying with Federal mandates has sky-
rocketed. Estimates of the cost to the economy in 1994 is in the
range of, conservatively, $300 billion, possibly as much as $6,000
for every household in the United States. I do not think we should
be misunderstood. Government regulations are necessary. We need
to have clean water, we need to have clean air, we need to have
good conservation practices. Nobody argues with that. There is
definitely a function for Government. The question, in some cases
is, have we lost common sense? Have we gone too far? This hearing
will give lowans an opportunity to give some specific cases.

I think this is an educational process for us and for you. If any-
one in the audience has not read — I am not usually in the habit
of recommending reading material like the Speaker of the House
does. But there is a very good book called 'The Death of Common
Sense" by Philip Howard that I think everybody should read who
is interested in this area.

There are three general areas where I think we need to look. We
need to look at the issue of unfunded Federal mandates in which
State and local governments are forced to pay to implement the
rules that we send from Washington. This is a little bit like — the
mayor of Columbus once remarked that an unfunded mandate is
like having Uncle Sam take us out to dinner, order our food and



then hand us the check. We frankly appreciate the meal, but it is
kind of hard to pay the bill.

There is an area that I, as a member of the Commerce Commit-
tee, am especially interested in, and that is in the area of risk as-
sessment which seeks to ensure that regulations are based on
sound science and are justified both in the areas of cost and bene-
fit. There is rarely anything that we do in our lives where we do
not do a cost/benefit analysis. In our personal relationships, in our
businesses, this is part of the decisionmaking process. Unfortu-
nately, we have examples in the Federal Government where no
cost/benefit analysis is allowed by law, where there is a zero risk
assessment standard. I think, this is contrary to being able to focus
sometimes scarce Federal funds into the areas where they can do
the most good.

We also need to look at private property issues which work to
guarantee that the Federal Government cannot take property
rights away from individuals unless they are fairly compensated.

So, I will keep these remarks short, Mr. Chairman. I thank you
very much for having this hearing and for allowing lowans to par-
ticipate in a very important governmental process.

Mr. McIntosh. Thank you. Your work is going to be critical on
the Commerce Committee as they address many of these regulatory
problems. Thank you for helping us set it up and procure the great
witnesses we are looking forward to hearing today.

Let me now turn to one of the full-time committee members, a
colleague from Minnesota, Gil Gutknecht, who shared with me ear-
lier that he was originally from Iowa. So, I am in good company
up here with three people who are from Iowa. Perhaps your State
has been able to actually get their sixth Congressman back again.
[Laughter.]

Gil, any opening remarks for us?

Mr. Gutknecht. Well, Mr. Chairman, I just might add that
when you look at the entire Congress, it is amazing how many
Members were bom and raised in Iowa. An awful lot of Members.
I think Jon Kyi was bom and raised in Iowa. I forget the rest of
the names. There are about half a dozen who were educated here
and went on to other States and have been elected to Congress. It
is great to be back.

Let me just reiterate a couple of points. I want to be brief be-
cause we have got some great testimony lined up today. But a cou-
ple of points that Greg made.

First of all, that the estimates of the needless regulations, the
cost on our economy is astronomical, and we have seen various es-
timates. But I think it is reasonable to say that it is probably cost-
ing the average family about $6,000 a year in higher cost for every-
thing that they buy just because of the needless regulations. What
we have heard — this is our 12th field hearing, and we literally
have had field hearings from Maine to Minnesota. I am not sure
how far west we have gone, but we have covered pretty much most


1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

Online LibraryNatural Resources United States. Congress. House. Committee on GoverRegulatory reform : hearing before the Subcommittee on National Economic Growth, Natural Resources, and Regulatory Affairs of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, House of Representatives, One Hundred Fourth Congress, second session, February 9, 1996 → online text (page 1 of 17)