Ontario. Legislative Assembly.

Correspondence, papers and documents, of dates from 1856 to 1882 inclusive, relating to the northerly and westerly boundaries of the province of Ontario online

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Online LibraryOntario. Legislative AssemblyCorrespondence, papers and documents, of dates from 1856 to 1882 inclusive, relating to the northerly and westerly boundaries of the province of Ontario → online text (page 27 of 86)
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retained round each post shall not ^oeed 3,000 acres, all the lands retained to be free
from taxation, except when reclaimed from a wild state.

Lastly, the Committee cannot deny that the stipulation that the Committee shall
.iiave power to bring before the Judicial Committee of Her Majesty's Privy Council
matters in dispute, is open to the objection that the Privy Council acts only as a Court of
Appeal, and as they presume that the Company would be entitled to appeal from the looal
Oourts to the Privy Council, they do not think it indispensable to insist on this demand

. The Committee, in declaring their willingness to make these alterations in the terms
-which they proposed, are actuated by a sincere desire to arrive at an agreement with Her
Majesty's Government ; but they are conscious that they would be wanting in their duty
if they did not add that at the half-yearly meeting of shareholders, held since my letter
of May 13 th was written, opinions were expressed strongly adverse to any arrangement
for the cession of the Company's territorial rights which did not secure the payment as
compensation of a sum of hard money.

Sir Edmund Head, in the concluding paragraphs of his letter of April ISth, 1864,
in which terms were proposed similar to those now under discussion, but involving the
•cession of a part only of the Company's Territory, avowed to the Duke of Newcastle the
^apprehensions of the Committee that it might be difficult to convince the shareholders
that the offers then made were to their advantage ; and although the Committee have
felt bound not to recede from the terms contained in my letter of May 13th, which were
based on their former offers, they cannot conceal from his Grace that they anticipate a
^ery serious opposition on the part of their shareholders to any such arrangement as that
which they have put forward.

His Grace will recollect that at our first interview, before the Canadian del^^ates had
started for England, Sir C. Lampson and I strongly insisted upon this point, and that we
suggested that if Canada would agree to pay to the Company one million sterling in
bonds, such a settlement might be acceptable to our proprietors.

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The Committee entirely share this view. The more they consider the very compli-
<cated arrangements which have been devised as a substitute for the payment of a sum of
money at once, the more they are convinced that it is as much for the interest of Canada
as of the Company, that the claims of the Company should be provided for by a direct
compensation, and not by contingent payments extending over a long series of years, and
by grants of land under stipulations, which, although indispensable to protect the
Company from spoliation, would be invidious in the eyes of the future settlers and'
embarrassing to the Colonial Government.

At the same time the Committee desire me to assure his Grace, that if their terms as
now modified are agreed to by Her Majesty's Government, the Committee will use all their
influence to induce the proprietors to confirm them.

I have the honor to be, Sir,

Your most obedient servant,


The Right Honorable C. B. Adderley, M.P.,
Colonial Office.

The Under-Secretary to the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company.*

1st December, 1868.

My Lord, — I am directed by the Duke of Buckingham and Chandos to acknowledge
the receipt of your Lordship's letter of the 27th October, and to express his Grace's regret
that the serious illness of Mr. McDougall, one of the two delegates sent from Canada,
which prevented his Grace from communicating with him, should have caused so long a
delay in the answer.

Hift Grace regrets to perceive that the letter under reply does not afford much prospect
of an arrai^ement being come to.

Her Majesty's Government, in the letter of Mr. Adderley of 23rd April to Sir Curtis
lampson referring to the negotiations which took place in 1864, requested to be informed
** what terms the Company would be prepared to accept, proceeding on the principles
then adopted, namely, that the compensation should be derived from the future proceeds
of the lands, and of any gold which may be discovered in Rupert's Land, coupled with
reservations of defined portions of land to the Company."

To this your Lordship replied that the Committee were prepared to recommend —

1. That the Company shall surrender all the territory which they hold under their
charter, with the reservation of all their posts and stations, with an area of 6,000 acres
ronnd each such post or station ; this reservation of 6,000 acres, however, not to apply to
the Red River Settlement

2. That the Company shall be entitled to receive 1«. for every acre of the land
Bcmrendered, which shall be disposed of by the Government whether by sale, lease, or free
grant, or parted with in any other manner.

3. That one quarter of the sum received by the Government as an export duty for
^Id and silver, or on leases of gold and silver mines, or for licenses for gold and silver
mining, shall be paid to the Company, the amount to be received under this and the
preceding article being limited to a total sum, conjointly, of £1,000,000 sterling.

4. That the Cai^ian Government shall confirm all titles to land that has been
alienated by the Company at Red River, or elsewhere.

5. That whenever the Qt)vernment shall have sold, leased, granted, or otherwise
parted with 50,000 acres, the Company shall be entitled for every such 50,000 acres to a
free grant of 5,000 acres of wild land to be selected by them.

6. That no tax be imposed upon any land belonging to the Company not under
cultivation, and no exceptional tax shall be imposed upon the Company's other lands or
property, or upon the Company's servants.

♦ SesB. Papers, Can., 1869, No. 25.

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7. That the disputed matter of the Companj^s lands in Canada be settled by issuing
grants on the footing formerly agreed upon by Mr. Tankoughnet and Mr. Hopkins.

8. That the Canadian Government shall take over from the Company all the materials
for the construction of the telegraph now in Rupert's land, and the North- West Territory,
on payment of the cost price, and the expenses already incurred with interest.

9. That full liberty to carry on their trade shall be secured to the Company, free
from any special or exceptional taxation.

10. That until £1,000,000 sterling, stipulated by articles 2 and 3, shall be paid to
the Company, no export duties shall 1^ levied by Canada upon furs exported by the
Company, and no import duties shall be levied upon articles imported by the Company
into the North-Western Territory, and into that part of Rupert's Land which is not
included within the geographical limits laid down in Sir K Head's letter of 13th Novem-
ber, 1863, the Company to be further entitled to import goods in bond free of duty,
through any part of the surrendered territory into the North- Western territory and the
aforesaid part of Rupert's Land.

Lastly. That in order to afford to the Company a guarantee for the due fulfilment of
these provisions by the Canadian Government, power shall be given to the Company to
bring before the Judicial Committee of Her Majesty's Privy Council for decision any
matters connected with the carrying into effect the foregoing provisions, in respect of
which they may consider themselves aggrieved.

His Grace intimated in reply, that there were " certain points in the terms set forth
to which he would not feel at liberty to agree in their present shape," and at the
meetings which ensued his Grace expressed his strong objections to the principle of the
proposals of the Company respecting reserves of land to be selected from time to time at
the discretion of the Company, and to the principle^ of special exemption from taxation
in their favour, and expressed his opinion that there were many points in the other
proposals requiring material modification.

Your Lordship's present letter intimates that the Company are unable to agree to
certain modifications which suggested themselves during the discussions as modes of
avoiding the objections entertained by his Grace, and proceeds .to state the changes which
the Company are willing to agree to, and which his Grace understands to be as follows :

1st That the exemption from taxes on the Company's wild lands shall only last for
a period of twenty years from the date of selection.

2nd. That any lands purchased by the Company shall not reckon in the quantities
of 50,000 acres, in respect of which the Company should be entitled to select 5,000 acres.

3rdly. That the Company shall bear the expense of surveying their blocks of 5,000

4thly. That lands granted for such purposes as roads, churches or schools, shall not
be liable to the p^ment of one shilling per acre to the Company.

5thly. That the same exemption shall apply to land set apart by Her Majesty's
Government as Indian Reserves before the Company's territory is transferred to Canada.

6thly. That with regard to land around posts beyond what is designated the fertile
belt, 6,000 acres shall be granted, and that only 3,000 acres shall be the quantity within
that belt.

7thly. That the proposed recourse to the Privy Council as a Court of first instance^
shall be abandoned.

His Grace is unable to recommend the adoption by Her Majesty's Grovemment of
such terms for the surrender of the territorial rights of the Company. Whatever be the
future government of the territory, whether by the Hudson's Bay Company or by Canada,
or by any other authority, very considerable annual outlay will have, as in all other
unsettled countries, to be incurred in clearing roads, maintenance and opening of naviga-
tion, etc., and surveying.

For these charges, the produce of the early sales of land is the natural resource.

But by the Company's proposals they would deprive the future Government of any
-prospect for a long time at least of receiving any income.

Ist. They first stipulate, not for a share of the receipts from land, but for a definite

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sum per acre, a sum in all probability far in excess of what is likely in practice to be
obtained for the greater portion.

2ndly. They stipulate that they shall retain certain reserves around their posts,
amounting, therefore, according to the lists of posts handed in by Sir C. Lampson, to
upwards of 500,000 acres of the land most likely to be made available for settlement and
sale, as being the land surrounding the established posts of the Company, they have, after
long experience, retained as the most advantageous positions for trade and occupation,
and of which nearly 100,000 acres surround the posts in what is called the fertile belt of
the territory.

3rdly. And that they shall also receive a share of mineral rights, and confirmation
of alltitle&

4thly. They proceed to stipulate for a further reserve of one-tenth of the whole
territory, and that the Company shall have this tenth in blocks of 5,000 acres to be
8el6cted as each successive 50,000 acres is alienated and not merely to select in the same
locality, but anywhere ; so that for instance, if land is alienated on the higher parts of
ihe Rocky Mountains, at Jasper House for example, in consequence of the mining opera-
tions in that district, or for fishing stations or for mining purposes on the coast of Hudson's
Bav or Labrador, the Company diould be entitled to select the proportionate reserve in
mm part of the most fertile region as they may consider will realize the utmost profit to
them, whether by its cultivation or development, or by its power of obstruction to others*

These lands moreover are to be exempt from taxation for a period of 20 years from
selection, and the lands retained round the posts to be entirely free from taxation unless

These conditions his Grace cannot accede to. His Grace would, however, recommend
Her Majesty's Government to agree to a surrender on the following conditions :

1st. That the land to be retained by the Company in the neighbourhood of theit posts
shall vary according to the importance of the post : in no case whatever exceeding 6,000
acres in all for any one post, including the cultivated or reclaimed land now occupied, and
in no case exceeding 3,000 acres within the fertile belt for principal posts, and 500 acres
for minor poets ; the additional land to be set out so as not to include frontage to rivers or
tracks, roads, or portages.

2nd The Company to receive one-fourth share of all receipts from land. If any free
grants of land be made for other than public purposes, such lands shall be deemed to have
been sold at one shilling per acre.

3rd. That one quarter of the sum received by the Government aa an export duty for
gold and silver mines, or for licenses for gold and silver mining, shall be paid to the
Comp(|ny, the amount to be received under this and the preceding article being limited to
a total sum conjointly of £1,000,000 sterling.

4th. That the Imperial Government shall confirm all titles to land that has been
alienated by the Company at Bed Elver or elsewhere.

5th. lliat the Company shall have the option of selecting five lots of not less than 200
acres each in each township, whenever it is set out, on payment of rateable cost of survey.

6iiL That no exceptional tax shall be imposed on the Company's lands, trade, or

7th. That full liberty to carry on their trade shall be secured to the Company.

8th. The Company to have similar reserves granted them in connection with their
poets in the North- West Territory.

9th. The boundary lines between Hudson's Bay and Canada to be defined, and
between Hudson's Bay and North- West Territory to be defined by a natural or geographical
boundary agreed on.

lOtL No wild lands to be taxable until surveyed and marked.

11th. That whenever the payment of X1,000,000 sterling under Article 8 shall have
been made as therein provided in cash, or otherwise extinguished by any payment or
commutation by Canada to the satisfaction of the Company, the rights of the Company
to further selections of lots, to royalties, and share of land receipts shall cease.

12th. Such lands as Her Majesty's Government shall deem necessary to be set aside
for the use of the native Indian popiUation shall be reserved altogether from this arrange-

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ment, and the Company shall not be entitled to the payment of any share of receipts or
any royalty therefrom, or right of selection in respect thereof under previous articles,
unless for such part, if any, of these lands as may be appropriated with the consent of the
Crown to any other purpose than that of the benefit of the Indian natives.

If these terms are approved, Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to conclude
an arrangement, and to submit it to the Canadian Government for their favourable consi-
deration ; but if the Company shall not assent to these conditions. Her Majesty's Govern-
ment will consider themselves unpledged by any of the offers that have been made.

I am, eta,

C. B. Addbrlet.
The Earl of Kimberley.

The Dbpy7tt-Govbrnob of the Hudson's Bay Company to the TJndeb-Seobbtaby.*^

Hudson's Bay House,

* London, 22nd December, 1868.

Sib, — I have the honour to enclose for the information of the Right Honourable\he
Secretary of State for the Colonies, extracts of letters recently received from Governor
Mactavish, dated Fort Garry, Red River Settlement, October 10th and November 11th,
from which it will be seen that the Canadian Government have intimated through an
agent sent to Red River by the direction of the Canadian Commissioner for Public
Works, their intention to construct a road from Fort Garry to the Lake of the Woods,
through the territory of the Company. A trespass upon the freehold territory of ihe
Company must be committed in order to carry out this intention.

The Committee cannot but look upon this proceeding as a most unusual and improper
one, especially as negotiations are at present pending for the transfer of the territory of
the Company to Canada. This trespass will be an actual encroachment <^ the soil of the
Company, and that too by a Government which has constantly up to this time and still
disputes the right of this Company over that soiL

The Committee therefore ask for the intervention of Her Majesty's Government, bat
at the same time they beg leave to say that any application by Her Majesty's Government
or the Canadian Government for permission to make this road will be favourably entertained.

I have, <S^.,

C. M. Lampson,

Sir Frederic Rogers, Bart, etc., etc., eta,
Colonial Office.

Extracts of Letters pbom Mb. Mactavish, Hudson's Bay Company's Governor op
Rupert's Land, to W. G. Smith, Esquire, Secretary, dated respectively Fort
Gabby, Red River Settlement, the 10th October and Uth November, 1868,
referred to in the preceding letter.*

10th October. — " I am informed that the Canadian Government have forwarded in
charge of a Mr. Snow, a quantity of provisions which Mr. Snow has written to one of
the merchants here to provide freight for from Georgetown, and appointed the 15th
instant as the date on which the supplies will be at Georgetown. Mr. Snow himself
says nothing on the subject, but it is rumoured here that he comes up for the purpose of
superintending the making of a cart road from this place to the Lake of the Woods,
and that the provisions that he is bringing are to be used in payment of labour on the
above road."

«Seu. Papers, Can., 1869, No. 25.

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11th November. — " Mr. Snow, who I before advised you as expected here to super-
intend in making a road from this settlement to the Lake of the Woods, with a view to
opening direct communication with Canada, arrived some time ago, and is now on the
eve of commencing operations. He has brought in with him some provisions with which
he purposes paying for labour on the road. On, his arrival here, he called on me to show
his instructions from the Commissioner of Public Works. These contained nothing of
ftny consequence beyond the expression of a hope on the part of the Commissioner that
the Company's agent here would offer no opposition to Mr. Snow's operations, but would
leave the matter entirely in the hands of the Imperial Government, which (as generally
people here regard Mr. Snow's arrival as opportune on account of the scarcity of
provisions), I agreed to do j and without instructions to protest against Mr. Snow's action,
I did not think it politic to do so."

Thk Undbr-Secrrtart to Sir Gkokge E. Cartibr, oke op the Canadian


DowKiNo Street,
* 30th December, 1868.

Sib, — I am directed by Earl Granville to transmit to you a copy of a letter
which hb Lordship has received from the Deputy Chairman of the Hudson's Bay
Company, relating to some steps which have been taken under authority of the Canadian
Government, and from which they apprehend some invasion of their territorial rights.

His Lordship will be glad to receive from you or from Mr. McDougall any explana-
tion with which you or he may be able to furnish him of the steps taken by the Canadian

1 am, Sir,

Your obedient Servant,

Frbderio Rogers.
Sir G. E. Cartier, Bart

The Canadian Delegates to the Under-Secretary.*

Westminster Palacb Hotel, London,
January 16th, 1869.

Sir, — We have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 30th ult (with
its enclosures), stating that you were directed by Earl Granville to transmit to us a
copy of a letter which his Lordship had received from the Deputy Chairman of the
Hudson's Bay Company, relating to some steps which have been taken under the authority
of the Canadian Government, and from which the Company apprehend some invasion of
their territorial rights.

Tou inform us that his Lordship will be glad to receive from us any explanation
which we may be able to furnish him of the steps taken by the Canadian Government.

We have read the letter of the Deputy Chairman, and extracts from the letters of
Governor Mactavish, and have much pleasure in being able to furnish his Lordship with
▼hat we hope will prove satisfactory information on the subject of the Hudson's Bay
Company's complaint. •

1. Li the month of September last, very precise information reached the Canadian
Government that, in consequence of the complete destruction of their crops by locusts,
Ae people of the Red River Settlement, numbering probably from 12,000 to 15,000
souls, were in imminent danger of starvation during the winter about to set in.

*Se88. Papers, Can., 1869, No. 25.

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2. Numerous and earnest appeals for aid had already been made to the Canadian
public by writers in the newspapers, and by clergymen and others acquainted with the
country. The Right Reverend Robert Machray, Lord Bishop of Rupert's Land, a member
of the Council of Assiniboia and so far a representative of the Company, visited Ottawa,
and urged upon members of the Canadian Government the duty of prompt assistance to
avert ^e threatened calamity.

3. No steps had been taken (so ^r as the Government could learn) by the Hudson's
Bay Company to provide supplies, and aware that a few days' delay at that Reason might
render it impossible to get provisions to Red River in time to afford relief, the Canadian
Government appropriated the sum of twenty thousand dollars ($20,000) towards the
construction of a road from Lake of the Woods to Fort Garry. The Minister of Public
Works (one of the undersigned) was directed to expend the principal part of this sum in
the purchase of provisions, which were to be forwarded wit^ all possible despatch to the
Red River settlement, and offered to the settlers, not as alms, but in exchange for their
labour on a public work in their own vicinity, and of the highest utility to their settlement.

4. A confidential and experienced agent proceeded at once to St Paul's, Minnesota,
and succeeded in forwarding a considerable supply of provisions before the close of
navigation. A further quantity has reached Fort Abercrombie, an American post in
Dakota Territory, from which point it can be sent to the settlement in the Spring.

5. Information has reached the undersigned since their arrival in England, that the
Government Agent had, in accordance with his instructions, conferred with the local
authorities on his arrival at Fort Garry ; that he had received their approval and promise
of assistance ; that his timely aid was a cause of much joy and thankf ulnes in the settle-
ment, -and that he had proceeded with a large force of labourers to the limit of the prairie
country, some thirty miles from Fort Garry, towards Lake of the Woods, and had there
commenced the construction of the road.

6. The immediate object of the Canadian Government in taking the steps complained
of, was, to supply food to a starving community about to be imprisoned for six months in
the heart of a great wilderness, without roads, or means of communication with their fellow-
subjects, and to supply it in the way most acceptable to a high-spirited people, viz., in
exchange for their labour. It was thought that even the Hudson's Bay Company miji^t
look with favour upon a public work which, when completed, will prove a valuable
protection to those under their government against similar dangers in the future. On
behalf of the Canadian Government, we deny that a ^' trespass " has been committed, or
that our action in this matter was intended to forestal or embarrass negotiations which
the Imperial Parliament had directed to be undertaken for the transfer of the North-
western Territories and Rupert's Land to the Dominion of Canada.

The foregoing explanation may perhaps be deemed sufficient to enable Earl Granville
to answer the complaint of the Hudson's Bay Company against the Canadian Government,
but the undersigned beg leave to add one or two observations which in their opinion this
extraordinary demand for the " intervention of Her Majesty's Government," both invites
and justifies. If the Hudson's Bay Company, who claim the right to hold and govern the

Online LibraryOntario. Legislative AssemblyCorrespondence, papers and documents, of dates from 1856 to 1882 inclusive, relating to the northerly and westerly boundaries of the province of Ontario → online text (page 27 of 86)