United States. Congress. House. Committee on Gover.

Agency for International Development contract operations ..., Volumes 1-2 online

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Mr. Long. Yes. Although at this discussion on that day the tech-
nical people concerned did discuss a good deal the necessity for re-
search in order to make the conference meaningful, both in its prepara-
tion and in its f ollowthrough.

Mr. Hardy. I am having a little trouble imderstanding why, if the
American Bar Foundation was planning to conduct this kind of an
operation — ^why did somebody in the State Department or ICA try
to see if they couldn't find some way to get them to accept some ICA

Mr. Long. They didn't, so far as I know.

Mr. Hakdt. I understood you to attribute such an indication to Mr-

Mr. Long. I am sorry. I misunderstood your comment.

Mr. Hardt. They hadn't come in to aSk for any money to finance?

Mr. Long. They came in with their proposal of January 1961, which
has a budget in it.

Mr. Reddan. Proposal for what?

Mr. Long. Conference. And as I say, it was a conference to be

E receded by a certain amount of investigative work and to be followed
y translation of papers and publications and so forth.
Mr. Hardy. That proposal specifically anticipated Federal financ-
ing of this thing ?

Mr. Long. My recollection is that this was implicit in some way.

But I just cannot testify accurately on this point, sir.

Mr. Hardy. You got a different recollection from the impression I

:et, from what we have. I had not understood that the American

ar Foundation came in for the purpose of getting Government fi-

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nancing. It is very seldom you find any organization of Americans
that won^ accept Government financing if they can get them to do it.
But I hadn^ understood that

Mr. Long. I am under the impression this is why they cair^ to
State Department to discuss these possibilities.

Mr. Hardy. Is there anything in the documentation that would sup-
port that, that you know of ?

Mr. Long. I believe Dean Stason has himself written a chronology
of events which someone here may have.

Mr. Keddan. Do you have that?

Mr. Long. No; I don't.

Mr. Keddan. Is there anything in your records which would indi-
cate prior to November 20, 1961, thw^ was anj^ su^estion on the part
of the Bar Foundation that this might be nnanced by the Govern-

Mr. Long. Prior to November 20?

Mr. Keddan. Prior to November 20, when you recmved a letter
from Mr. Stason.

Mr. Long. I don't know just what the record shows on this. I
would like, if we could at this time, to get this statement from Dean
Stason and examine it.

Mr. Hardt. If you can get it, I wish you would, because we are
faced with this kind of a situation ; looking at this thing sitting up
here it looks as though somebody in Government deliberately was try-
ing to see if they couldn't find some way to spend Uncle Sam's dollars
on something that other agencies were prepared to do.

Mr. Long. This is not correct, to my knowledge. Dean Stason
came with this proposal to the State Department and elaborated his
ideas to what they could do and Mr. Barall indicated that this was in
the U.S. interest.

Mr. Meader. What was the budget? Didn't you say that the
Januarv 1, 1961 proposal had a budget ?

Mr. Keddan. $175,000. Mr. Long, I show you a photostatic copy
of a letter addressed to Dr. Fei by Dean Stason, dated September 6,
1962, and ask you whether that is the document you referred to as
containing Stason's chronology of events.

Mr. Long. I think perhaps it is. As I say, I haven't

Mr. Keddan. When did Dean Stason write that?

Mr. Long. September 6 of this year.

Mr. Keddan. This year ?

Mr. Long. Yes.

Mr. Keddan. The committee received it yesterday.

This purports to be his recollection of a conference that took place
in the spring of 1961.

Mr. Ix)NG. This is a summary of all the event from the begirming
of their work in this field.

Mr. Keddan. Does he say anything in there about coming to Wash-
ington in the spring of 1961 to get Government support for the con-
ference they were to hold ?

Mr. Long. Not as such ; no, sir. I don't see it, that is.

Mr. Keddan. That is the document you were referring to before?

Mr. Long. I have now a more complete document, and I rather
think this is the one I was referring to.

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Mr. Ebddan. Istliatthe-

Mr. Long. I have very casual knowledge of this document, sir,

Mr. Reddan. Does the photostat I gave you purport to. be a copy
of the document you have just been handed by counsel for AID?

Mr. Long. These are two different documents.

Mr. Reddan. What is this second document ?

Mr. Hardy. Mr. Hoskins, you Just handed him that.

Mr. HosKiNS. Mr. Chairman, there are two letters, both from the
American Bar Foundation, both signed by E. Blythe Stason, one ad-
dressed — ^pardon me. A letter of September 6, 1962, ^dressed to Dr.
Fei, and another letter of September 5, 1962, addreBsed to Mr. Harold
Weitzen, contracting officer for AID.

Mr. Hardy. Has a copy of that been furnished to us? Why hasn't
it been furnished, Mr. Ho^ns? You knew of the interest of the
subcommittee. Here we art trying to answer questions on something
and you have been withholding mf ortnation.

IMt. Hoskins. Mr. Chairman, we have certainly been trying to
give the committee

Mr. Hardy. You were able to produce it quite quickly when Dr.
Long wanted it ; but you hadn't presented it to the committee.

Mr. HosKiNS. Just a moment, Mr. Chairman, let me check one

I was provided, apparently, Mr. Chairman, with copies of both
documents, and I certainly had the very strong impression that I
supplied both documents to the committee late Friday. Late Friday
afternoon we had three trips up here by special messenger, Mr. Chair-
man, and we submitted numerous documents.

Mr. Hardy. You can understand the feeling I get when you spring
a new document when Dr. Long needs it, but you haven't given it to

Mr. Hoskins. That is what I am saying, Mr. Chairman. I was
under the impression, on one of the three trips Friday afternoon,
it was submitted to the committee. I may be in error; if I am, I
apologize and am sorry. But I had no secretary last week, so I was
unable to write letters listing all the documents I sent up. We sent
maybe 30 or 40 different documents.

Mr. Hardy. I will get one of my investigators to work on this and
see if they can find it somewhere between here and your oBSce.

Mr. Hoskins. Perhaps we have another copy available of this now-
I do not know.

Mr. Reddan. Mr. Hoskins, is this letter that you have there — ^you
say it is addressed to whom ?

Mr. Hoskins. Mr. Harold Weitzen.

Mr. Reddan. Does that contain anything in support of Mr. Long's
statement that

Mr. Hoskins. It contains, on the third page, a reference to the
meeting in Mr. Barall's office.

Mr. Hardy. Give it back to him and let Dr. Long testify as to what
it is in it, so we can get this thing cleared up, and then if we find any
inconsistencies subsequently, we will just have to handle them in the

I am mighty surprised, Mr. Hoskins.

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Mr. Long. On the first two pages it outlines the background of work
that had been done by the foundation in this area, and then on page
3 he says:

On May 31, 1961, John D. RandaU, chairman, B. Blythe Stason, adsiiji-
istrator, and John G. O'Leary, deputy administrator/librarian, of the American
Bar Foundation, met in Washington with Mr. Milton Barall of the State Depart-
ment, Dr. B. R. Long, agriculture economist with IGA, and Mr. Robert T. Wagner,
Foreign Affairs Officer of the State Department. Dean Stason outlined tlie
proposed foundation project. Mr. Barall reviewed the State Department interest
under the Act of Bogotd. He suggested that the foundation proposal doyetailed
rery satisfactorily with the Bogotd resolution and also with the general acttvlties
of OAS and the work of the Ifacport-Import Bank. Arrangements were made for
an advisory committee meeting and Mr. Barall indicated that representatives
from the Goyemment would be on hand at the meeting.

Mr. Eeddan. Does that say anything about the Government financ-
ing this?

Mr. Long. It does not, sir, and my recollection on this point is ex-
tremely vague.

Mr. Reddan. Was another proposal by the American Bar Founda-
tion drafted, a revision of their January 1 proposal ?

Mr. Long. Yes. The next one that I have seen was a revised edition
dated January 1962.

Mr. Reddan. How about October 1961 ?

Mr. Long. I am sorry ; October 1961.

Mr. Rbddan. Is there a budget attached to that one ?

Mr. Long. Yes, sir.

Mr. Reddan. This is a revised budget after the meeting which you
say you attended which was held at Iowa City, Iowa ?

Mr. Long. Correct.

Mr. Hardy. When?

Mr. Long. Julv 14, 1961.

Mr. Rbddan. Is this a new item in that budget that was submitted
under date of October 1961 ?

Mr. Long. I haven't made this comparison.

Mr. Rbddan. The last one, the last line item in that budget is allow-
ance for assistance of graduate students, $25,000.

Mr. I^NG. Yes.

Mr. Rbddan. Was there any discussion at this conference in July
as to an item like that being put into the budget ?

Mr. Long. I believe there was. As I say, I was there as an observer
and did not make suggestions at this time. But the committee rep-
resented many technical people drawn from various sources, and there
was some discussion about the general matter of the kind of program
that the bar foundation should develop, and it is entirely possible that
this item grew out of that general discussion.

Mr. MoNAGAN. Was that the only additional item over the prior
proposal ?

Mr. Long. Yes, sir, as best I can here determine.

Mr. Meadbr. Would that make the total $200,000 ?

Mr. Long. $200,000.

Mr. Rbddan. This was still at this time — ^in this proposal — ^in the
form of an institute to be held by the American Bar Foundation, is
that right ?

Mr. Long. An institute, although from the beginning the item there
on Jhe preparation of working papers and so forth implied that the

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invitees to the conference should do research, and that, as I recall,
these graduate students would do research after attendmg the con-

Mr. Reddan. Was it also inteiitded this should be a cdoperative

Mr. Long. I don't believe that the details as to what the nature of
the enterprise should be were discussed. We did not discuss this
budget at that meeting, to my recollection.

Mr. Reddan. The proposea budget and plan which you have before
you there for October, did that discuss the cooperative nature of this

Mr. Long. It says it would be cooperative with— I believe this one
says that it would be cooperative witn appropriate institutes in Latin
American countries, and so forth.

Mr. Reddan. Did it say that those invited from the Latin American
•countries would be asked to make contributions, financial contribu-

Mr. Long. I am not certain on that point.

Mr. Reddan. Did they discuss there the benefits the law schools
4ind the American bar would receive from this institute ?

Mr. Long. They discussed primarily the fact that this kind of an
institute would result in a mutual enrichment of the knowledge of
legal people interested in this work in the North and South American
-Continents, and that this exchange of knowledge and competency
would very greatly strengthen the legal foundations for carrymg out
agrarian reforms in Latin America.

This was the general nature of the discussion.

Mr. Reddan. In the proposal dated October 1961 on the next to the
last page, the last sentence in item 2 and in item 3, would you read
those, please?

Mr. Long. Is this item 8?

Mr. Reddan. No, item 2, the next to the last page. I am not
counting the budget. The last sentence on item 2.

Mr. l3)NG. On their departure?

Mr. Reddan. No.

Mr. Long. On which page?

Mr. Reddan. Trtiese pages are not numbered. It reads:

Our law schools will benefit thereby —

referring to the conference.

Through this cooi)erative enterprise American lawyers will learn much about
the law as it exists in countries other than our own. The proposed Institute
would constitute an important educational factor for the American bar.

Now was that particular part of the proposal discussed at the
conference in July ?

Mr. Long. Not in this detail. This paper, of course, was written
subsequent to the conference.

There was, as I say, a general discussion about the advantages
which would accrue from me better comprehension of legal people
in the United States and in the Latin American areas, oetter ex-
change of information ; that this would l)e mutually beneficial. But
I am certain that it didn't take this specific term.

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Mr. B^DAX. Were there discussioiis as to how this would be fi-
nanced, this conference ?

Mr. Long. Not to my recollection.

Mr. KuDDAN. Did you receive a letter under date of October 27^
1961, from Dean Stason ?

Mr. Long. Yes, sir.

Mr. Reddax. Does he state in that letter anything with respect to
financing of the conference ?
. Mr, Long. I don't see it, sir.

Mr.REDDAN. The second sentence:

I am also sending copies to Dr. Bachman and Dr. Steele, both of the U.S.
'Department of Agriculture. * * * Mr. Bandall and I have been In touch with the
Johnson Foundation and we think there is some likelihood of interest on this*

Mr. Long. Yes.

Mr. Keddan. Do you know what Dean Stason is referring to there f

Mr. Long. My recollection on this point, based on conversationj is
that he was hoj>eful of inducing the Johnson Foundation to provide
the physical facilities, the buildings, that is to stay, in which the con-
ference would take place. There may have been some other items^
but this is what I recall.

Mr. Eeddan. You have no recollection of any discussion as to a
financial contribution by the Johnson Foundation ?

Mr. Long. Not at that time, no^ sir. There may have been. I re-
call the buildings aspect of it.

Mr. Meader. Where are those buildings located ?

Mr. Long. I believe this is Johnson Wax Foundation, and I am
not sure where their buildings are, but I understand they have some
facilities on a lake somewhere.

Mr. Ketjss. They are located about a mile north of the city of
Eacine, Wis., a building desired by Frank Lloyd Wright, which is
quite beautiful. Come to see it.

Mr, Hardy. I appreciate the invitation.

Mr. Eeddan. Does that make any expression that AID finance this

Mr. Long. No, sir.

Mr. Eeddan. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Stason or
the American Bar Foundation between that time and November 20,

Mr. Long. I could not be certain, but I rather doubt it, between
October 27 and November 20. But I have no firm recollection on
that matter.

Mr. Keddan. You have no notes or any communications from Mr.

Mr. Long. I have a letter of November 20.

Mr. Reddan. Yes, November 20. That is addressed to you by Mr.
Stason ?

Mr. Long. Yes.

Mr. Reddan. Would you read the last paragraph of that letter,
please, sir?

Mr. Long (reading) :

If we can reach a satisfactory end result In the form of a contract with AID^
this will be most gratifying.

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Mr. Eeddan. Did that come as a surprise to you ?

Mr. Long. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Kbddan. Where has this been suggested before? I am a

Mr. Long. As I said, my understanding was that when Dean Stason
brought the original proposal in to the State Department, it was as
a proposal for financial assistance for the conference, and the other
items related thereto, from some portion of the State Department,
either directly from State or from ICA. This was my recollection of
the character of those conversations and of all the conversations after

Mr. Beddan. Had you been helping the Bar Foimdation develop
this conference?

Mr. L#oNO. No, I had not.

Mr. Keddan. The sentence just preceding the one that you read

Conversely, wben your reorganization Is completed, we hope to have an oppor-
tunity to work further with you and your associates in developing our project.

What does that mean, "work further" ?

Mr. Long. Well, he had been in contact with me. I had been sent
out to the conference out there, and we had on a technical basis dis-
cussed what they were going to do, and I don't recall the character
of our discussion up to that point. But I did not work with them, to
the best of my recollection, on anything pertaining to the budget.

From the beginning it was my understanding that this was a pro-
posal to the State Department, and I had been asked to attend this
meeting and participate as a technical person in the meeting.

Mr. Keddan. a proposal for what purpose?

Mr. Long. For this conference.

Mr. Rbddan. But it was not a proposal to be financed by the State

Mr. Long. It was my understanding it was.

Mr. Eeddan. If you will, please tell the committee from what you
get such an understanding. There is nothing in the files, and we can
find nothing that would suggest that was the purpose of the con-
ference. If you will please tell the committee where you did reach that
understanding, I would be very happy.

Mr. Long. I am trying to the b^t of my recollection to say that this
was the character of the discussion at the meeting in the State Depart-
ment with Mr. Barall, and I was asked to go there for this reason, to
this meeting.

Mr. Hardy. In other words

Mr. Long. To monitor, as it were, the discussions that were going on,

Mr. Hardy. Who asked you to go to the meeting? Did Mr. Barall
ask you to?

Mr. Long. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hardy. Who made this presentation on behalf of the Bar
Foundation ?

Mr. Long. At the meeting?

Mr. Hardy. Yes.

Mr. IjONo. Primarily Dean Stason, but Mr. Randall also.

Mr. Hardy. Had Dean Stason talked to you before you went to
the meeting?

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Mr. Long. No, sir. I met him that day.

Mr. Hardy. But you were given to understand verbally that the
whole purpose of this was to trjr to induce the State Department to put
some money into this proposition?

Mr. Long. It was a proposal that the Bar Foundation had been
working on for a good period of time. They had some of their own
resources. They were talking, perhaps subsequently to this, about the
Johnson Founaation, I am not certain, and they were asking for the
State Department's assistance. This is my best recollection of this

Mr. Hardt. That is the thing I want to try to understand, where did
this come from. The file doesn't reflect it,

Mr. Long. The file is ambiguous on this point,

Mr. Hardy. Here is a budget that was submitted, but for what pur-
pose it was submitted isn't clear from the records. We were trying-
to determine where you got this impression that they were coming-
in there with a proposal for State Department financing, and evi-
dently you got it from oral discussion, if I imderstand what you are
, Mr. Long. That is correct.

Mr. Meader. Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry Mr. Reuss has left. I have
to bring up the university.

Dean Stason is former dean of the University of Michigan Law-
School. I am going to suggest probably he is a scholarly gentleman
who doesn't come right out bluntly and say, "I want you to give me
some money," but when he comes down here and talks to the State
Department about something, and has a list of costs in his hand, it is
perfectly natural to assume that he wants the State Department to give
him some money.

Mr. Long. I think this is a very good statement.

Mr. Hardy. I take it that you make those observations from first-
hand knowledge.

Mr. Meader. Well, I think it was more than just a social visit.

Mr. Reddan. Dr. Long, did Mr. Stason finally get around to ask
ing you for money ?

Long. When he sent in these proposals-

Mr. Reddan. Do you have a letter of February 12, 1962, addressed
to you ?

Mr, Long. Yes, sir.

Mr. Reddan. Is that a specific request for funds?

Mr. Long. It is a reference to a letter which he is addressing to Dr.
Fei, even though he misspells the name, and a suggestion that he
would like to visit with him and with me and any other people in
the Agency with respect to his proposal.

Mr. Hardy. Anybody that could open the purse strings.

Mr. RtoDAN. Will you read the second paragraph of that letter,

Mr. Long. Yes, sir.

In regard to the proposed team to go to Latin America in advance of the proj-
ect, may I suggest after discussing the matter with John Randall we feel that
we wiU make the best progress if we ask Prof. Jacob Beu3cher to represent our
project. He has a scholarly grasp of the subject matter and wiU, I believe, give
us the best results. I shaU be interested, however, in checking this point further
with you.

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Mr. Reddan. Who is Prof. Jacob Beuscher ?

Mr. Long. He is a professor of law at the University of Wisconsin.

Mr. Reddan. The proposal was attached to that letter. Did that
contain a budget ?

Mr. Long. That would be the proposal of January?

Mr. Eeddan. January, 1962, yes, sir.

Mr. Long. Yes, sir.

Mr. Reddan. How much was it?

Mr. Long. $250,000.

Mr. Hardy. You have me a little bit mixed up here.

You are talking about a proposal from the American Bar Founda-
tion now for this study ?

Mr. Eeddan. Yes.

Mr. Hardy. This research business?

Mr. Eeddan. Yes.

Mr. Hardy. Haven't we gotten ahead of ourselves a little bit?
Wasn't this study encompassed in the original proposal for the Uni-
versity of Wisconsin contract ?

Mr. Long. Is this a question to me, sir?

Mr. Hardy. I am just jjosing it wherever I can get an answer.

From what I have reviewed of this file I had gotten the impres-
sion that the original proposal from the University of Wisconsin em-
braced this legal study also. I think we are getting now into a build-
up of the costs in this American Bar Foundation contract, whereas
I had gotten the impression that this was included in the original
proposal from the University of Wisconsin to do the legal as well
as the

Maybe this business is covered in their present contract.

Mr. Long. Sir, my understanding of the earliest Wisconsin pro-
posal is no different from the final arrangement with the University
of Wisconsin, namely that they had a small item of legal research,
or legal support for their general economics investigations. The
scope of the work which hasT)een discussed so much here was lifted
from — in its essentials, from their general statement of the scope in
the first formal submission to the Agency. And their plan of work,
or their set of objectives listed about 15 objectives, one of which was
to do the legal research necessary to make the economics research viable.
It was not a major item.

Mr. Hardy. What are we concerned with? First of all we are
concerned with legal research to support the economic research, isn't
that right?

Mr. Long. That necessary amount, that minimum amount, which
is necessary to make their economic research reliable and meaningful.
It can come into existence or it cannot, depending on what they are

Mr. Hardy. All right.

What they proposed was adequate legal research to give substance
to the economic research that they were proposing; isn't that right?

Mr. Long. That is correct.

May I use an analogy^ sir? The same sort of situation would arise
with respect to soils. In order to make an investigation of a colon-
ization project, they might find that the soils in the situation was
strategic. This would be identified. But it would not be a major
item of research under the Wisconsin contract.

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Mr. Habdt. But the research that was a matter of basic concern
was the research on land tenure; is that right?

Mr. Long. The economics of land utilization, and agrarian struc-
ture and administrative aspects ; yes, sir.

Mr. ELau)Y. That is the matter which was of fundamental concern.

Now the University of Wiscmisin proposed to make a study of that
and they proposed also to do the legal work that was necessary to give
that reliability. Is that right ?

Mr. Long. To the economics aspect of the study.

Mr. Hardt. That is what I am talking about. They proposed in
their contract to do all the legal work that was necessary to oack up

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