United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Fore.

Compilation of reports of Committee ... 1789-1901, First Congress, first session, to Fifty-sixth Congress, second session .. online

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ceived from Mr. Lines.

By Mr. Lines:
Q. Mr. Weed ?— A. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Goon.
Mr. Lines. I do not want to interfere with Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.

By Mr. Foster :

Q. He knew it was a letter from Lines, or a letter purporting to be
from him t

Mr. E^ennedt. If we don't prove the agency, this testimony goes for

The Chairman. That is right. I want to know if the agency was
established. 1 did not know.

By Mr. Kennedy :
Q. Will you state what was said by Mr. Weed or Mr. Fisher in regard
to the object of their alleged employment by these gentlemen whom
Weed and Fisher claimed represented the Mexican Government t — A.
They were seeking to obtain some evidence from Mr. Exall with a view
of overturning the evidence that he had previously given, as I under-

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stood it. They sought to obtaiu from Exalt evidence that would enable
them to attack the claims that tbe La Abra Company had made.

By the Ohaibman :

Q. The evidence that they sought there related to documents or oral
statements t — A. No; statements that he previously made; testimony
that I understood tbat be bad given ; testimony tbat they desired to
present through him ; evidence tbat would controvert his previous tes-

Mr. Foster. That don't answer your question.

The Chairman. I want to know if it related to documents or oral
statements of Exall's at the time.

The Witness. Both.

Q. Bothf What documents? — A. Didn't specify the documents.

The Chairman. Very well.

By Mr. Kennedy :

Q. What was said, if anything, by Weed or Fisher in regard to com-
pensation for Exall if he would testify a« desired ?

Mr. Lines. Tbat question assumes iu tbe latter part of it that tbe
witness has answered tbat they sought to procure oral testimony.

The Chairman. He did.

Mr. Lines. Alone!

The Chairman. No; be said both.

Mr. Lines. Tbe latter part of tbe question relates to oral testimony

The Chairman. He explained that.

Mr. Foster. The point tbat I now make is wbether he has laid the
foundation for the question he has now asked.

The Chairman. Go on.

Mr. Lines. I would like to note an objection to the question in that
form ; I don't want to ask it.

The Chairman. An objection would hardly lie to it. He is not
obliged to put the question iu tbe shape you want it.

Q. I ask the witness to Hnswer tbat hist question.

Mr. Lines. I make no objection to tbe question. It is in the alterna-
tive, by Weed or Fisher. I think tlie question be asked was, what was
said by Mr. Weed, and so follow it up.

The Chairman. I will require the witness to state which one.

The Witness. Well, both. It was a question of compensation dur-
ing tbe interviews I bad. We bad more tban one interview. The spe-
cific sums mentioned came at tbe later interview.

The Chairman. Tbe first interview, we are now talking about, I be-

The Witness. The first interview was merely a matter of introduc-
tion, I becoming acquainted with tbe parties tbat represented the gen-
tlemen I have referred to, and I was to take Mr. Exall's place in tbis
negotiation, Mr. Exall declining to have any further conferences with
them in person.

By Mr. Kennedy :

Q. Go to tbe second interview, or any interview at which the sub-
ject of compensation for Exall's testimony was. discussed, and state
what was said on that subject by Mr. Weed or Fisher, or Doth of them.

The Chairman. State first tbe subsequent interview, and who was

The Witness. The interview that followed the one referred to took
place at the Stock Exchange, in New York.

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Q. When f— A. Witbiu— very aoon after the 2l8t. I dcn't know that
I can say positively the date, bat I think on the 29th of January^
tor the reason that I received a telegram at my residence, dated the 28th
of January, from Mr. Fisher, in which he said : '^Meet me to-morrow
at II at Stock Exchange." And in response to that telegram I met Mr.
Fisher the following morning at the Stock Exchange.

By the Chairman :

Q. Who else was there ! — A. Nobody.

The Chairman. You wish to know what was said between Fisher
and himself in regard to this compensation f

Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Go ahead. It is all subject to whether Fisher was
the agent of the Mexican Government.

Mr. Kennedy. Go on, Mr. Kittelle, and state what was said at that
Interview by Mr. Fisher in regard to Exall's compensation.

The Witness. I don't know that there was anything very definitely
said about compensation at that interview. That followed at a still
later interview.

The Chairman. Go on to that, then.

The Witness. If you will allow me to tell you the things as they oc-
curred, I can give you a better account of what passed between us

Mr. Foster. I object to that.

The Chairman. We want what was said. We don't want your opin-

The Witness. I wasn't going to give my opinion.

The Chairman. At the second interview you state that nothing was
said about the compensation ; that Mr. Fisher asked what the compen-
sation of Exall was to be for the testimony they desired to procure. Is
that the second interview ?

The Witness. Yes, sir ; said that Mr. Weed had promised him : that
he had been assured that a large sum of money would be paid if they
could command the testimony. Mr. Fisher replied by saying that he
thought Mr. Weed was in error in reference to that; that he did not
think any specific sum had been fixed upon.

Q. What was the specific sum that was mentioned! — A. Twenty
thousand dollars.

Mr. Lines. A moment.

By the Chairman:
Q. By whom f— A. By Exall as having been stated by Mr. Weed.
Mr. Exall told me

By the Chairman :
Q. In the presence of whom t — ^A. In the presence of no one; in the
statement made

By Mr. Lines :
Q. That he had been assured by whom f — A. By Mr. Weed.

By the Chairman :
Q. Was Weed present at that time f— A. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. Foster. Has that testimony gone into the record!
Mr. Kennedy. Certainly it goes into the record.
The Chairman. It goes out of the record unless you connect it.
Mr. Foster. What Exall said to himf

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The Ghaibman. That, certain ly, is not competent. Mr. Eittelle, L
will take yon in hand, and see if I can get this thing straightened oat

The Witness. I will be very glad to have yon.

Q. Ton have now stated the first time that yon and Weed and Fisher
and Exall met, and the place t — A. Yes, sir.

Q In that meeting, was anything said about compensation to be paid
to Exall for changing his testimony, or famishing new facts, or doca-
ments, in regard to his former statement! — A. All that he said in that
interview, except Mr. Exall informed tbe gentlemen, in my presence,
that hereafter all negotiations had in regard to the matter should be
held with me.

By the Chairman. That is rather a carious fact. Why should he
employ you to make the negotiations t — A. He didn't agree to carry out
any negotiations with them, he said.

Q. Did you suppose, at tuat time, that you were negotiating to buy
a peijured statement irom Exall t — A. Not at all.

Q. You did not! — ^A. No, sir.

Q. Why should there have been any necessity for an intervener or some-
body else to come in ? — A. They wanted to ascertain — ^Mr. Exall wanted
to ascertain what these people desired to do.

Q. Couldn't they tell him as well as they could tell you t — ^A, Yes,

Q. What interest had you in it that made you a sort of broker about
it ! — A. None whatever, except that I was requested by my friend,
Mr. Ely, to be present at that interview to ascertain from those gentle-
men what they desired to do in the matter.

Q. You represented Mr. Ely t — ^A. I represented Mr. Ely ; I repre-
sented him personally.

Q. Who else did you represent! — A. Him.

Q. Nobody else! — A. No, sir.

Q. Then, you represented Ely and nobody else! — ^A. So far as I know.

Q. You were then there by invitation of Ely to hear the conversation
between them! — A. I saw Ely, not Ely alone; Mr. Exall and Ely to-

Q. At a conversation between Exall and Fisher and Weed and your-
self!— A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Mr. Ely employ you to do this ! — A. He requested me to do it.

Q. Did he employ you ! — A. Do you mean employed me !

Q. Paid you, or promised to pay you! — A. Not at all.

Q. Did you have any interest in the award!— A. None whatever.

Q. Did it merely for an accommodation of Ely ! — A. As a personal
friend, and not the slightest pecuniary interest.

Q. I suppose from your statement that Exall and the other two par-
ties had really met, or had some correspondence, before! — A. I under-
stood they had.

Q. And Exall had informed Ely of it !— A. I suppose so ; I don't

Q. And, thereupon, you were sent in to see what took place, and te
take the matter off ExalPs hands !— A. Yes, sir.

Q. With the view now of selling his statement to the La Abra Com-
pany ! — A. They desired to procure his

Q. Did you do it with the view to sell his statement ! — ^A. Not at alL

Q. I mean the Mexican Gtoverument. — A. Not at all.

Q. Was it with a view to prevent his making any statement to those
people!— A. No, sir.

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Q. Of what he actually knew, or ef any incorrect impression that had
been left by his former deposition 1 — A. Not at all.

Q. If yon neither wanted to obtain Exall's fresh statement for the
Mexican Government nor to prevent him from his changing his state-
ment that he formerly made, what was your basiuess ? — ^A. My business
was to ascertain what these gentlemen desired to do with Exall. I
never knew anything about Exall's testimony in detail or in a general
way. I did not know anything about it then, and do not now ; do not
know what position he occupied really toward the company, or what
testimony he had given ; never understood in detail, nor never cared
to understand it; had no interest in it whatever. I went simply at the
request of Exall, to represent him, to ascertain what the disposition of
these parties was towatds this matter. That was what I understood
to be the object of my intervention.

Q. Did you conclude the negotiation with them ? — A. There was no
negotiations concluded.

Q. Why not! — A. I don't know why not. I don't know why it was
not concluded.

Q. Did Exall conclude any statement to those men through you? —
A. No, sir.

Q. Make any change of any statement he had formerly made t — ^A.
No, sir ; not through me.

Q. Did he deliver any documents that he had in his possession
through you, or to you for them 1 — A. None whatever.

Q. So far as you know, nothing resulted from this except a negotia-
tion attempted between these two men, representing themselves as the
agent of the Mexican Oovemment,or the agents of the Mexican Govern-
ment, to procure a statement from Exall contradicting his former depo-
sition! — A. I don't know whether it was contradicting his former
deposition or testimony or what. I never knew what he had given — I
never knew what his testimony was, if he ever gave any ; so I can't say
whether it was in reference to a deposition or what, but it was a matter
growing out of his connection, as I understood it, with this company.

By the Chairman :

Q. Did Exall ever authorize you to sell or dispose of any statement
that he would make, in regard to the La Abra claim, to the Mexican
Government ! — ^A. On the contrary, he regarded this as an attempt to
buy him up that he resented, and he wanted to know the parties in the
matter, and whom they represented and what they proposed to do.
He never to my knowledge proposed to change his testimony nor to
undo in any way any act he had previously said or done in connection
with the matter. He resented the application made to him, and he
wanted the matter to be within the knowledge of some other parties
than himself.

Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, can I take the witness now f

The Chairman. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Kennedy:

Q. Did I understand you to say, at that second interview, that Fisher
said to you that he thought that Webb — is it Webb f— A. Weed.

Q. Was mistaken when he mentioned the specific, sum of $20,000 f—
A. It was at the second interview.

Q. What did Fisher say in regard to thatf— A. He said that he had
no doubt the parties would pay liberally.

Q. What was said, if anything, in regard to shielding Exall from
ham on aooount of any conflict between his testimony ah^ady given in

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favor of La Abra Company and the testimony that those detectives
were seeking?

Mr. Foster. At this second interview t

Mr. Kennedy. No, I do not confine it to the second interview.

Mr. Foster. We want to confine it to the same interview.

Mr. Kennedy. It does not make any difference whether these things
happened at one interview or another. On cross-examination the wit-
ness can be asked when and where such and sach a thing was stated.

The Chairman. No.

Mr. Kennedy. Then I will follow yonr suggestion.

The Chairman. The time and the place of the interview most be
given ; otherwise, I would not receive it.

Q. Have you stated substantially all that happened at this second
interview ! — A. I think that I saw Mr. Fisher once before then. I met
him, I think, once in the street, and had a little conversation with him in
the street, and I think that this interview at the Stock Exchange occurred
on the 29th of January, and that it followed the interview tbat I had
with him on the street. I met him one day in Nassau street, and then
he telegraphed to me, and 1 think this was the third interview at the
Stock Exchange, now referred to, and at that time the question of pro-
tection to Exall came up.

Q. What was said on that subject f — A. He said that Mr. Exall need
not fear any results from anything he might do — any change he might
make in his testimony — ^as the parties were very strong and would fully
protect him.

Q. Did he name the parties? — A. He named Mr. Zamacona, especially.
He seemed anxious to have Mr. Exall and Mr. Zamacona meet ; told
me that Mr. Zamacona was coming to the city in a few days, and de-
sired tbat Exall and Zamacona should have a personal meeting.

Q. Was any person named but Zamacona as the party who would
protect Exall ? — A. By Mr. Weed, there was.

Q. One moment. I want to follow the suggestion of the chairman.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. You are continuing the interview at the Stock Exchange now f

Mr. Kennedy. I can straighten this. If you gentlemen on the
other side would give me a fair show, I could get this witness to state
his story consecutively without any trouble.

Mr. Foster. We interrupt you to understand the question. We
want to know whether this was the Stock Exchange interview.

The Witness. I am speaking now of the interview with Fisher on
the 29th of January, the day following the telegram.

Mr. Lines. Then you don't want to say what Weed said, because he
was not there ?

By Mr. Kennedy:

Q. Was Weed present at that interview ! — A. Not at all.

Q. State to the committee when and where you had your next inter-
view on this business.

The Chairman. And with whom ! — A. I saw Fisher once or twice
after that, but I had an interview with Mr. Weed on the 27th of Feb-

A. Where was that f— A. That was 49 Yesey street, at the office of
Kobert Malcolm, the printer.

Q. State what Weed said to you at that interview ?.^A. At that in-
terview Mr. Weed read me an extract of

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Mr. Lines. Let me understand that. Tou met him in response to a
letter f

By the Ghaibman :

Q. What year? — A. 1878. I received a letter— >his note was dated
the 26th of February and addressed to me at my residence^ — ^in which
he said, ^' I would like to see you at 11 a. m. 27th inst., on a matter of

Mr. Lines. Mr. Kennedy, are you going to put these various memo-
randa in here ?

Mr. Kennedy. I have not oflFered them in evidence. Certainly, if
you want to examine them and put them in evidence, you can. The
witness, without suggestion from me, seems to be refreshing his recol-
lection from papers in his hands.

Q. Now, proceed, Mr. Kittelle, and state what was said by Mr. Weed
at the last interview. — A. Well, in order to satisfy me

Mr. Lines. No, not that. Say what he said. — A. He read an ex-
tract — he read portions of a letter that he said was from Mr. Lines,
and whether I saw his signature to it or not I don't know ; but he read
portions of a letter to me with a view that I might know whom he was
representing. I asked him definitely for the names of the parties that
stood behind him in this matter, and what assurance Mr. Exall had
that the money would be forthcoming if he consented to their proposi-

Q. Well, go on and state what Mr. Weed said to you on that sub-
ject. — A. At that time Mr. Weed said the names — named Mr. Lines,
Oeneral Slaughter, and Mr. Zamacona as the parties, and said the money
would be furnished by Mr. Zamacona, but he believed that the Mexican
Government stood behind him, or stood behind them all.

Q. Was anything said at that interview in regard to immunity for
Exall f— A. Oh, certainly, that was a part of the — he confirmed what
he said; he said the same in substance as Fisher said to me. He said
the parties were strong, and would protect Mr. Exall from the conse-
quences that might result from the change of his testimony, or for his
furnishing them with the desired testimony.

Q. Was anything said at that interview in regard to a meeting be-
tween Mr. Exall and Zamacona ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. State what was said on that subject. — A. Mr. Weed said that Mr.
Zamacona would come over at any time that would be convenient to

Q. Now, did you have any further interview with either Weed or
Fisher, and, if so, when and where? — A. Nothing. Never met them.
Never had any conversation with them after that. That was the last
interview I had with them.

Q. After that last interview, what report, if any, did you make on
the subject to anybody f - A. I stated the facts — I stated the facts as
they occurred.

Q. To whom!— A, Mr. Ely.

Q. Did you make an afiSdavit at that time f — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Of those facts!— A. I did.

Q. I would like to have you look at this paper and state whether that
is the affidavit that you made then [showing witness paper]. — ^A. That
is my signature.

Mr. B^BNNEDY. That is made on the 25th of April, 1878.

The Ghaibman. Do you wish to put that in evidence f

Mr. ElENNEDY. No, sir; I do not olQfer it now. I just wanted it iden-
tified by the witness. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chairman. Do yoa propose tx> keep this paper as a private paper f
Mr. Ejbnnedy. No, sir. It is at the service of the other side or the

By the Guaibman :

Q. What papers are those yoa have in yoar hands f — ^A. A telegram
from Fisher and a letter from Mr. Weed.

Q. Where did you get them! — ^A. I got this from Mr. Kennedy this

Q. Whom did you deliver them to ? — A. I delivered them to Mr. Ely.

Q. When f — A. About the time — prior to the making of my affidavit

Q. Have you ever seen them since ? — ^A. Never have seen them until

The Chairman. Let me see what they are.

The Witness. That is a telegram from Fisher.

The Chairman. It is from French's Hotel, dated January 28, and
reads as follows :

Meet me to-morrow at 11 at Stock Exchange.


By the Chairman:
Q. You and Mr. Fisher met after that! — A. Yes, sir; on the follow-
ing day. Here is the letter from Mr. Weed, dated February 26, 1878.
The Chairman. It reads as follows :

New York, FebnMry 26, 1878.
Dear Sir: I would like to see yoa at 11 a. m., 27th instant, on a matter of im-

Yours, etc.,

W. 8. Wkkd.
G. W. KiTTELLE, Esq.

Q. Do you know where Mr. Weed is! — A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever heard of him since that time? — A. I don't know as
I have.

Q. Have you any other paper there!— A. There is a letter (from
Fisher) dated the 4th of February.

New York, Febmarif 4, 1878.
Dear Sir: The Mexican minister is expected to arrive in this city either to-morrow
or Wednesday, and I should like to see you before I see him. Will you please let me
kuow what time and place it would be convenient for you, and I will call upon you t
Please address me by bearer, or in care of the door-keeper of the Broad street entnuice
of the Stock Exchange.
Yours, respectfully,

Thomas Fisher.
Charles Exall, Esq.

The Witness. There is the envelope in which it was contained.

Q. Who handed you that letter! — A. That I received in connection
with the other two papers. That vvas handed to me by Exall and by
me delivered to Ely with these. That is a memorandum that I show

Q. I understand you to say that these papers have been in the keep-
ng of Ely, so far as you kuow, until the present? — A. Tes,sir; I never
saw them until this morning, after I delivered them to him.

The Chairman (to the witness). I will read this affidavit to yon.

State op New York, City and County of New York:

George W. Kittelle, beinff duly sworn, says :

1 reside and am a househol^r at No. 18 East Thirty- third street, in said city, and
I know Sumner 8. Ely, Charles H. Exall, WiUiam S. Weed, and Thomas Fisher, of
said oi^.

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On the2l8tday of Janaary, 1878, at about 4 o'clock p. m., paraoaDt to the request of
said Ely, and for reasons particularly stated in his affidavit, verified April 18, 1878,
and hereto prefixed, I went to the place of business of said Exall, at No. 62 Broad-
way, in said city, and was then ana there introduced by him to said Weed, a deteot-
iTe, and Exall at the same time stating to said Weed that any further interviews,
and any negotiation in the matter with reference to which he had called to see him
(Exall) must be had and carried on with me. I was then and there also introduced to
aaid Fisher, also a detective, who, I learned, was acting in concert with said Weed in
the matter. After some general conversation that interview, which was very brief,

Subsequently, and on or about the 22d, 25th, 29th, and :U)th of said January, I had
interviews with aaid Fisher in said city, and on or about the 27th of February, 1878,
I had an interview with said Weed in said city. None of said interviews were solic-
ited by me, but were had at the request of either said Fisher or Weed or were ad-
journments of a previous interview had at such request. The interview with said
Fisher on said 29th of January was requested by him by a telegram dated the 28th
January, addressed to me and in these words: " Meet me to-morrow at 11 at Stock
Exchange. T. Fisher.'' And the interview with said Weed on said February 27 was
requested by him by a letter dated at 49 Cedar street, New York, February 26, 1878,
addressed to me, and in these words :

*' Dbab Sir: I would like to see you at 11 a. m., 27th inst., on a matter of iknpor-

"Y'rs, etc.,

"W. S. Wkkd."

Said original telegram and letter are in the possession of said Ely.

The object of each said interview on the part of said Fisher and of said Weed was
the obtaining from said Exall of evidence with which to attack as fraudulent and aid
in setting aside the award made in favor of La Abra Silver Mining Company against
Mexico by Sir Edward Thornton, the umpire, under the treaty liStween the United
States and Mexico of July 4, 1868; and the giving of such evidence, which they ex-
pressed themselves as very anxious to obtain f^om said Exall, was always the subject
of conversation by them, respectively, in said interviews, as was also how much
would be paid to or made by said Exall for such evidence. At one of said interviews
with said Fisher, I stated to him that I had understood Mr. Weed had said to Mr.
Exall that such evidence would be worth $20,000 to said Exall, to which said Fisher
replied that he thought said Weed was mistaken, that he did not think the payment
of any specific sum had as yet been authorized by the parties back of them, out that
they would pay liberally for any evidence helping that nurpose, and that Mr. Exall
eonld make more money by furnishing such evidence than in any other way. Mr.

Online LibraryUnited States. Congress. Senate. Committee on ForeCompilation of reports of Committee ... 1789-1901, First Congress, first session, to Fifty-sixth Congress, second session .. → online text (page 117 of 156)