United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Fore.

Compilation of reports of Committee ... 1789-1901, First Congress, first session, to Fifty-sixth Congress, second session .. online

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Fisher also said that if such evidence conflicted with evidence which Mr. Exall had
already ffiven in the case, he need have no apprehensions on that point, as he would
be kept harmless and protected by the parties behind them, who were very strong.

In the interview had with said Fisher on or about the 30th day of said January, he
said he wished Mr. Exall to go and see Mr. Zamacona, the Mexican minister, with
reference to giving such testimony, and that he (Mr. Fisher) expected said Mexican
minister in the city in a few days. At said interviews, held with said Weed on or about
the 27th day of said February, he read to me portions of a letter which he said was
written by Mr. Lines, the attorney of Mexico in Washington, which portions seemed
to be instructions as to the particular points on which it was desirable to get evidence
from said Exall. Mr. Weed baid he did not know how Mr. Exall was situated, but
that it was an opportunitv for making a sood deal of money that seldom occurred ;
that it would be made cash to him for evidence such as was desired.

I asked Mr. Weed who were the parties behind him— who would be responsible for
his engagements, and furnish the money that it was proposed to pay Mr. Exall ; and
said Weed replied that Mr. Lines, the Washington attorney. General Slaughter, also
at Washington, and Mr. Zamacona, the Mexican minister, were the parties; that the
money was to be furnished by Mr. Zamacona, and that he supposed the Mexican Gov-
ernment backed them all, and he said that either or all of saia parties would come on
to New York and see Mr. Exall on the subject if he would reouest them by telegraph
or letter to do so; that he (Mr. Weed) was anxious to arrange tor an interview between
Mr. Exall and Mr. Zamacona, and that he (Mr. Weed) could do so at any time. Mr.
Weed also said that Mr. Exall need have no ft are because the evidence he might fur-
nish did not agree with his previous testimony; that he would be protected and kept
harmless; that Mexico was strong and able to do so. I communicated what was said
and done at said interviews to said Ely from time to time as they occurred, and I
also made known to said Exall the greater part of said con vereations.

I took into consideration all that said Fisher and Weed said to me, because I prom-
iMd them I would do lo, and I have no doubt but that they acted in the matter on



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776 THE LA ABBA SILVER MINING COMPANY.

the theory that the desired evidence could be truthfully furaished, bat the whole
thing seemed to me to be nothing more or less than an attempt on the part of some-
body, acting throogh them, to buy up evidence made to sabeerve a certain porpose.

Gborge W. Kittbllb.
Sw^om to before me April ^5, 1878.
One word having first been written overaneraBore.

Adolph SCHUaCBKEf
Notary PubUoy New Tork CduUff.
[Notary public seal.]

By theCHATTiMAN;

Q. That is your affidavit Y— A. That is my affidavit.

Q. Was that as full a statement made at the time as you were capa-
ble of making of the transaction ! — A. Tes, sir; I have no doubt of it.

Q. If you have added anything to it on this examination, do you think
your memory now is better than it was then f — A. No, sir ; I don't think
it is. That covered the case exactly. The questions put to me brought
matters up of a later date — a little mixed up about the ioterviewB.

Q. You seem from this affidavit not quite to understand definitely
what they were trying to do. Were they trying to get Exall to unswear
something he had sworn to before, or were they trying to get from him
some documents that they thought would show there was fraud in thin
award ? That seems to be the impression upon the last clause of it ; for
instance, ^' I have no doubt that they acted in the matter on the theory
that the desired evidence could be truthfully furnished.'^ — A. My im-
pression at the time was that these gentlemen considered that Mr. Exall
could, perhaps, truthfully furnish just what they wanted.

Q. Then, you did not get auy impression, as I understand your affi-
davit, at the time that an effort was being made to suborn Exall to
swear to a falsehood ! — A. They were willing to pay pretty liberally for
what he would give.

Q. Can't you answer that last question, because I think it is a matter
due to you that you should answer! The question is this: Then, you
didn't get any impression, as I understand your affidavit, at the time
that an effort was being made to suborn Exall to swear to a false-
hood ? — A. My answer is embraced in the closing terms of my affidavit
there as explicitly as I can make.

Q. Suppose you try it again. — A. I think the detectives, Fisher and
Weed, thought that Mr. Exall could furnish the testimony they wanted
truthfully; but, at the same time, I was also of the impression that they
were determined to get the testimony.

Q. Who were determined f — A. The parties they represented.

Q. Where did you get that impression from ! — A. From all that I
saw in reference to the matter.

Q. State the facts. — A. That they were willing to pay liberally for
the information.

Q. What kind of information — truthful or false? — A. I can not tell
' whether it would be truthful or false.

Q. Yes; you know whether at the time you thought they were trying
to get falsehood or the truth out I — A. I can not answer that question.

Q. You don't know whether you thought they were trying to get the
truth outf — A. I thought they were determined to get the information
they wanted from him, but I concluded also that the detectives

Q. Upon what do you base your statement that you thought the
agents back of the detectives were trying to get a statement of Exall
that was a lie t— A. Because they were willing to pay so liberally for
the information.



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THE Ul abba silver MINING COMPANY. 777

Q. Woaldo't they be as willing to pay for truthful information as for
false information f — ^A. I can not say.

Q. If you thought so, why didn't you put that in your deposition f —
A. Simply because I could not tell what the motives of these gentlemen
were.

Q. How can you tell now, if you couldn't tell then t — A. I can only
tell my impressions.

Q. Why didn't yon put your impressions in the deposition t— A. I
think I did so in my affidavit.

Q. <* Acting through them to buy up evidence made to subserve a cer-
tain purpose." You used that language in your deposition ? — A. Tes,
sir.

Q. Is that an effort to buy up false or true evidence t— A. They
wanted the evidence.

Q. Was it your intention in the use of those words to say that you
believed at that time that their purpose was to buy up evidence that
was false — to cause a man to swear to a lie about it? — A. I can't say
that they wanted the man to swear to a lie, but they wanted the evi-
dence that the man could give; I can't say whether it was true or false.

Q. Yon left the impression on the subject that you expected at the
time that they were trying to suborn Exall to get the testimony f — A.
Yes, sir.

Q. If you had that impression at the time, why didn't you state it at
that timet — ^A. I say it in justice to the detectives — I meant to say
that the impression most fixed upon my mind was that the detectives
thought Exall could truthfully state all what the parties wanted him to
say.

Q. But you say <' the whole thing seemed to me to be nothing more
or less than an attempt on the part of somebody, acting through them,
to buy up evidence made to subserve a certain purpose" t — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did yon mean by that to say that you believed at the thime that
an attempt was being made to suborn perjury? — A. I won't say that.
I would not like to say that.

Q. You know what the impression left at the time was Y — A. If it is
not clearly stated there, I am incapable of stating it. I can say only
in substance what I stated there. I would not like to say, but my im-
pression was they were determined to get this testimony, and that they
would liberally pay for it.

Q. Whether it was false or not ? — A. I won't say.

Q. You won't say that f — A. No, sir.

Q. It is hardly filir to yourself to leave it at thatf — A. I am willing
to leave it at that and let anybody judge of their motives.

Q. If you believed the object of these men — Zamacona, Lines, and
Slaughter

The Witness. Neither of whom I ever met.

Q. If you believed their object was to procure testimony that was
false from Exall, and that reversed his former statement — if you liad
that impression — ^it was only due to them and to you that you should
state the particular fact upon which you came to that conclusion. — A.
Well, my affidavit there covers the ground as fully as I can possibly
cover it.

Mr. Kennedy. I have an objection to that line of examination,
namely, that all questions to the witness regarding his impressions,
whether present impressions or impressions that might or might not
have been put into his affidavit, are open to the objection that the im-
pression of the witness could not be material, and that all that the wit-



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778 THE LA ABKA SILVER MINING COBIPANY.

ness had to do was to state the facts, and leave inferences to be drawn
by the parties concerned.

The Chairman. And J say it was very material to the credibility of
any witness whether he woald lend himself, at the instance of a third
party, to negotiate witii another man to reverse his deposition, and I
wanted the witness to excalpate himself, as I think he has fally done,
from any such position. That was the reason of my question. Mr.
Kennedy, have you any other witness here to-day t Have you closed
with the witness t

Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir; and I have no other witness here to-day.

OBOSS-EXAMINATION OF MB. EITTELLB.

By Mr. Lines

Q. Mr. Kittelle, I understand you to explain your afiSdavit by saying
that you thought that the two detectives, of whom you spoke, were en-
gaged in an attempt to get something that Exall might truthfully fur-
nish, but that you thought on the part of the persons whom these de-
tectives represented the effort was a different one ; I would like to have
a little explanation of that.

Mr. Kennedy. My objection to that question is that it has not stated
correctly what the witness has said in that particular. His statement,
to which counsel has referred, is not any explanation of his affidavit,
but simply an expression of his views in regard to the motives of the
two detectives.

Mr. Lines. I will withdraw that question and ask this, quoting the
the last paragraph of your affidavit :

I took into consideration all that said Fisher and Weed said to me, because I
promised them I would do so, and have no donbt bat that they acted in the matter on
the theory that the desired evidence could be truthfully furnished, but the whole
thing seemed to me to be nothing more nor less than an attempt on the part of some-
body, acting through them, to buy up the evidence to subserve a certain purpose.

I^ow, I want you to explain, if you can, what yon meant by the sup-
position that the agents were acting in good faith to get evidence that
could be truthfully furnished, but that behind this they had a different
motive.

Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, that was fully gone into by the wit-
ness in answer to your questions.

The Chairman. I think the question is a proper one.

A. I only knew who they were representing by the statements they
made to me, Mr. Fisher and Weed, but from the determination of the
parties

Q. What parties ! — ^A. Fisher and Weed, either to secure from Exall
the testimony they were seeking and the promise of protection to him
for testimony or statements he might make, that conflicted with any
previous evidence or statements he had given, was the evidence that
the parties that they represented were determined to procure from
Exall information that would serve their purposes: that the parties
were authorized — ^if their statements to me were to be believed — were
authorized to pay a very considerable sum of money to procure from
Exall such statements as they wanted, knowing they were different
materially from the statements he had hitherto made ; those are the
only reasons I can give yon for the impressions that rested upon my
mind from those several interviews.

Q. You may consider that an answer to my question, but I do not.

Mr. Kennedy. It is not a satisfactory one, evidently.



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THE LA ABBA SILVER ICINING COMPANY. 779

Mr. Lines. It is not an answer at all, Mr. Kennedy.

Q. What led you to suppose that persons, acting through agents,
might wish ^^ to buy up evidence made to subserve a certain purpose''
(I want to call your attention to that), and that the agents, through
whom those persons were acting or supposed to be acting, and through
whom alone they were acting, only desired to secure evidence that
could be truthfully furnished, and was not ^^ made to subserve a certain
purpose.'' I want to get your idea between the action of the principal
and the action of the agent — the motive. — A. I can only answer you as
I did; that I believe there was a determination to procure from Exall
such testimony as would enable them to contradict his previous testi-
mony.

Q. How could you know what the determination might be except from
the agents? — ^A. That is the only way I could know it.

Q. Tott believed them to be acting in good faith, but the parties em-
ploying them to be acting different? — A. It seemed to me that the de-
tectives were under the impression that Exall had made statements
that were incorrect, and if he gave them the testimony that they wanted
he would be telling the truth.

Q. Gould not the parties behind them have been under the same im-
pression f — A. Perhaps so. I do not judge their motives at all. I only
tell you the impressions I received from the result of the negotiation.

Q. I ask you why you used these words in your affidavit, " to buy up
evidence made to subserve a certain purpose," and you now say you do
not judge the motives of the gentlemen you understood to be behind
Fisher and Weed. — ^A. I judge their motives so far as to say what 1 do.
I do not know who they are. I do not know who the gentlemen are,
but anybody who ofifered to pay a very large sum of money for testi-
mony that is entirely contrary to the testimony previously given must
have had some purpose — must have wanted to serve some purpose.

Q. That is not the point

Mr. Ejbnnedt. I think that is exactly the point you are arguing with
the witness.

Mr. Lines. No ; that is not the point of my question. Here is the
proposition, that somebody behind these gentlemen was trying '< to buy
up evidence made to subserve a certain purpose" — manufactured evi-
dence. Is that the construction that you intended to put upon that!

A. Let me say again

<j. No ; I want an answer to that question, if you please. Do you
mean by ^^ evidence made to subserve a certain purpose," manufactured
evidence— manufactured for a purpose ? — A. If Mr. Exall should swear
to something very different to what he swore to then I think it would
be manufactured.

Q. How is that t — A. I think if he had sworn to a certain statement —
if he had sworn to certain statements — and then contradicted himself,
it would be manufactured testimony.

Q. You then intended manufactured evidence by those words, " evi-
dence made to subserve a certain purpose "—what is ordinarily kuowu
a>8 manufactured evidence? — A. Well, if he contradicted himself at one
time— if he had sworn to certain circumstances and gave certain evi-
dence at one time and contradicted it at another, I think he would be
manufactuiing his evidence.

Q. It would be manufactured ?

Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, it is entirely improper to try to make
this witness decide, or even to express an opinion, upon the question
whether in case of a conflict between the deposition that Exall had



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780 THE LA ABBA SILVER BONINO COMPANY.

made, which was submitted to the Mixed Gommissioii, and the testimony
that was desired from him. It is entirely improper to make the wit-
ness express an opinion as to which of these two conflicting depositions
would have been the true one.

Mr. Lines. I am not trying to do that. Yon misunderstand me.
Tou interrupted me before I finished. I was about to ask him which
he considered the manufactured testimony ; the one that expressed the
truthful one, or the one that expressed the false onet^A. The one that
expressed the falsehood, decidedly.

Q. Suppose it had been the deposition which you say they were try-
ing to secure a contradiction of that was false, and the deposition which
they were trying to procure, as you say, that was the true one, you,
knowing nothing of either, would apply the term manufactured to the
one without knowing what the former one had been; would you apply
the term manufactured to the former onef — A. No, sir; not without
knowing which was genuine and which was false.

By the Chairman :

Q. Did you form any opinion that these parties. Lines — ^Zamacona,
and Slaughter — were trying to procure from Exall a false statement or
true statement Y — A. I did not form any opinion as to that at all.

Q. As to whether they were trying to get a false statement or a true
one F — A. I did not.

Q. Did you believe, at the time, that this arrangement was being
conducted for the purpose of getting from Exall a false statement or
a true one! — A. I can't answer that, for I don't know what their pur-
pose was.

Q. Tou had no belief at the time as to what their purpose was Y —
A. All the belief that I had I have stated in my affidavit.

Q. Did you have any belief at that time that they were trying to
procure from Exall a false statement ? — A. I don't connect those gentle-
men with it at all, for I don't know of my own knowledge whether they
had anything to do with it.

Q. Had you any belief at that time that the purpose of this proceed-
ing was to extract from Exall a false statement Y — A. I can't say that
I have tbe impression that that was — I can't say that I have.

The Ghaibsian. Let that end it.

Q. Mr. Kittelle, who asked you to make this affidavit f — ^A. Mr. Ely.

Q. Did you know for what purpose it was to be used — in what pro-
ceeding ! — A. To be used in the La Abra proceeding. I knew that very
well.

Q. What proceeding did you understand was under way at that
time Y — A. I understood that they had presented a claim against the
Mexican Government ; that the award had been made, which the Mexi-
can Government were proceeding to set aside.

Q. Did you understand that it was to be used in any debate in the
House of Representatives or any other body t — A. I didn't know how
it was to be used.

The GHAIBMA.N. Was there any reference made in the House of Rep-
resentatives to this evidence Y

Mr. Lines. There was a reference, without publication of it. If tbe
affidavit had been published at the time it would have been a very dif-
ferent thing from the reference that was made.

Q. Where were you living in April or January or February, 18781—
A. Eighteen East Thirty-third street. New York Gity.

Q. How did you come to know Mr. Exall !— A. Introduced to him by
Mr. Ely.



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THE LA ABRA SILVER MINING COMPANY. 781

Q. When! — A. About that time.

Q. About what time f — A. The mouth of January, previous to these
interviews.

Q. Was anything said at that time about any attempt on the part ^f
anybody to secure — anything said by Ely to you about auy attempt
to secure Mr. Exall's evidence! — A. Yes, sir; explanation was made
to me at the time that Exall had been approached by these gentlemen,
and he had — that he had considered the approach an unwarranted one —
that he had decided, in his own mind at first, that he would resent it,
but finally concluded

Q. Who is this — Ely! — A. No, I am speaking about Exall. I learned
something about the matter from Mr. Ely first, because, at that time,
I didn't know Exall at all. I was introduced to Exall by Ely.

Q. At the time you were introduced, Exall told you what f — A. That
these gentlemen had been to see him in reference to this matter and
what tiiey wanted from him, and he expi*essed himself — he expressed
a good deal of indignation that they should approach him on the sub-
ject, and it was with a view of ascertaining exactly what, fully what,
their purpose was that he turned over the representations to me.

Q. Who was this f — ^A. I am speaking of Exall now.
' Q. All this at the time you were introduced to Exall by Ely! — A.
Yes, sir; the first interview I had with him.

. Q. Did- Ely say anything about his purpose of bringing you two to-
gether! — A. Yes, sir; it was expressly understood that I was to repre-
sent Exall in the matter for the purpose of ascertaining what these gen-
tlemen wanted and what they were prepared to do.

Q. Fisher and Weed! — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was Exall living at that time! — A. I believe in New York.

Q. Do you know what house! — A. He was a cleru for Ewing & Tut-
tle, 21 New street.

Q. I was speaking of where his residence was ! — A. I don't know.

Q. Did he ever live with you in New York f — A. No, sir.

Q. Did he ever stop with you in your house f — A. No, sir ; I don't
8apx)ose I ever saw him three or four times in my life.

Q. And then at those interviews you have described ! — A. Yes, sir;
the interviews 1 had in his offipe. I never saw him anywhere else but
at his office.

Q. At which interview was it that Mr. Weed, if that is his name,
read you 'a letter! — A. That was the interview late in February, in
Cedar street.

Q. What was Weed doing there on Cedar street !— A. I don't know
whether that was his office or whether he made an appointment there
or not.

Q. It was at the office of a printer by the name of Malcolm ! — A. Yes,
sir.

Q. Was Malcolm present ! — A. No one present but Weed and myself.

By the Chairman :

Q. To whom was that letter addressed ! — A. To me.

Q. I mean the letter that was read to you; the letter a part of which
was read to you by Weed ! — A. A letter that Weed said was addressed
by Mr. Lines !

By Mr. Lines :
Q. By myself.— A. I didn't know that you were the Mr. Lines.
Q. I am. He read this letter to yon, as I understand, for the purpose

8. Doc. 231, pt 2 61

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782 THE LA ABRA SILVER MINING COMPANY.

of showing to yoa some authority? — A. Yes, sir; that he had in the
matter.

Q. Did you ask to see the letter! — A. I did not.

Q. You were satisfied ! — A. I believed what he said, of course.

Q. You believed what he said t — A. I believed he was reading the
letter from Mr. Lines. I hadn't any doubt of it at the time, and yet it
might not have been from him. I didn't see the signature of the tetter.

Q. Did you ever see Mr. Weed before f — A. Yes, sir; I had seen him
before that several times.

Q. How came you to have such confidence in him f — A. I don't say
there was any special exhibition of confidence. I didn't suppose he
would read me a bogus letter.

Q. You were willing to accept his statement as to his authority! —
A. Well, I believed, as I tell you, that he was reading a letter from
Mr. Lines.

By the Chairman :

Q. Did you take any memorandum, at the time, of the portions of the
letter that he read to you from Mr. Lines! — A. I did at the time.

Q. What did you do with it! — A. Turned my memoranda over to
Mr. Ely. I suppose I gave him the information upon which this aflB-
davit was drawn.

Q. At the same time that you turned over the other papers! — A.
Yes, sir.

Q. Have you ever seen that memoranda since! — A. Never have seen
the memoranda since.

Q. Never have seen the memorandSk since! — A. No, sir.

Q. How can you recollect the contents of the memoranda of a letter!—
A. From the dates

Q. The letter which Weed read to you ; a part of which he read to
you! — A. I was meeting Mr. Ely frequently at the time, and I believe
I gave him the information whenever I met him.

Q. I am speaking now of the memoranda which you say you took at
the time. — A. I made a memorandum of the interview I held with these
parties and where it was held.

Q. I don't think you comprehend my question. I ask you if yoa had
memoranda of the contents of that letter! — A. Oh, J did not.

Mr. Kennedy. I am sure he didn't understand you.

Q. Why didn't you do that! — A. I can't tell you ; I can't tell you



Online LibraryUnited States. Congress. Senate. Committee on ForeCompilation of reports of Committee ... 1789-1901, First Congress, first session, to Fifty-sixth Congress, second session .. → online text (page 118 of 156)