United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Fore.

Compilation of reports of Committee ... 1789-1901, First Congress, first session, to Fifty-sixth Congress, second session .. online

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I don't remember anything about that, sir.

Mr. McDonald. You used the term ^^ court legal expenses" as if
you were quoting.

Mr. PosTEB. I am.

Mr. McDonald. What did you quote from t

Mr. Fobteb. I quote fh>m Mr. OoUins's deposition ; that is, I adopt
the phrase there used.

Mr. McDonald. Well, you ought to state enough to refiiesh his
memory.

By Mr. Fobteb :

Q. Were there any sales of stock after this report of January 20,
1868 f — A. By the company do you mean f

Q. By the company t — A. I do not know. I know of none.

Q. I think you stated that there was no stock issued after 1888 1—
A. Not that I know of.



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THE LA ABBA blLVii^ MINING COMPANY. 857

Q. Well, the capital stock of the company was not increased after
Exall became superintendent. Yoa state no stock issned f — A. I do
not think there was. I do not know of my own knowledge.

By Mr. Lines :
Q. You were treasurer, Mr. Garth ; conld any stock have been issned
withoat your knowledge! — A. Well, 1 do not know; I know of none.

By the Chaibman :

Q. WelL yon know whether stock conld have been issned without
your knowledge t — A. Oh, I suppose it could have been issued by the
president and secretary. I do not think the treasurer has anything to
do with it.

Q. You did not sign any certificates and never kept arecord of them t—
A. I do not know. I do not think I ever did in my life.

Q. Well, you kept no record of itf — A. I think the president and sec-
retary did. I do not think lever made an entry in the books in my Ufe.

By Mr. Lines :
Q. Did you ever sign any certifleates of stock t — ^A. I do not think I
did. 1 do not remember. I do not think that came under me. Unfort-
unately I happened to be there and had to pay when the drafts were
drawn upon me or it had to go to protest, sometimes about ten minutes
before 3 o'clock, without notice.

By Mr. Fosteb :
Q. Mr. Garth, you have stated, to the best of your recollection, all

the debts, all the obligations of the company, up to the time that this

meeting was held, when Mr. Exall made his report, have you f— A. I

think so, sir.
Q. I find that on the 20th of January, 1877, a report was filed, signed

by JMr. Baldwin as president, and yourself, D. J. Garth, as one of the

trustees. That reports-
Mr. Kennedy.* What page are you on f
Mr. Fosteb. Well, it is not in print. We submitted it, but it appears

in 118 of document 274. It is before the committee, but is not yet

printed, but I refer to that for convenienoe.
Q. You state in that report that the amount of said capital stock

actually paid in is $235,000. I want to give you an opportunity, Mr.

Gkurth, to explain that discrepancy if you are able to do so, and you can

now proceed with your explanation. — ^A. The capital is stated at-~—
Q. Two hundred and thirty-five thousand dollars.

By the Chaibman :

Q. There it is right before you, Mr. Garth ; right on that page there.
Now, answer the question. The question is for you to explain that dis-
crepancy.

Mr. McDonald. What is the discrepancy you ask him to explain f

The Ghaibman. Mr. Foster, please state the discrepancy you want
him to explain.

Mr. Fosteb. The discrepancy between the report of January 20,
1868, and this report to which I have now directed his attention in
respect to the capital stock actually paid in.

Mr. MoDoNALD. Where are the two reporta t

Mr. Fosteb. He has the report before him there, on the top of that
same page.

Mr. Kennedy. And where is the other!

Mr. Fosteb. The other is at the bottom of page 118.



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838 THE I^ ABKA SILVER lilNINO COMPAHT.

Mr. Kennedy. Well, as the witness's attention has not been ealled
to this, he had better have an opportunity to examine.

Mr. Foster. I have jast gone over the report ot 1868 with him, and
asked him questions respecting it.

Mr. MoDoNALD. Welly you asked him some questions, but you have
not said what it was you asked them from.

Mr. Kennedy. No; and we never knew until this moment what it
was.

The Witness (after examining reports). I do not remember, sir; the
fhct is, probably, they had left me out of— what is this; 1867 1

Mr. Foster. The last one is 1877.

The Witness. What is the first one?

Mr. Foster. Eighteen hundred and sixty eight; nine years before.

The Witness. I do not remember. It might have been. Gould not
it have been

By the Chairman :

Q. Well, state your recollection about iti
By Mr. Foster :

Q. We want your recollection about it. — A. I have no recollection
about it. I do not know anything about it. Probably this report was
handed to me.

Q. We want your recollection, I said ; no surmises. — A« Well, I have
not thought about the matter, and I do not know anything about it.

Q. From your best recollection you can not reconcile the dis-
crepancy t — A. I have no recollection about it.

Mr. MoDoNALD. That is your argument £rom what he states.

Mr. Foster. I asked him to state

Mr. MoDoNAU). I know; but you argue it out.

By Mr. Foster :

Q. I desire now to direct your attention first to the report of January
20, 1868, in which the amount of existing debts of the company is fixed
at not to exceed $72,000 ; and then direct your attention to the report
of January 20, 3877, in which the existing debts of said company are
stated to amount to (154,530.06, and ask you if you are able, Arom your
best recollection, to reconcile the discrepancy between those two re-
ports f — A. I do not remember anything about it now, sir.

Q. You are not able to testify as to whether the debts were increased
or how they were increased f — A. Yes ; I do not have any recollection
about it.

Q, What was your practice in regard to signing these reports! Did
you take them on faith, or did you make any investigation f — A. Well,
when these reports, if I signed them — they were brought to me and I
just simply signed them, taking it for granted they were correct. I did
not meddle with the accounts.

Q. Have you any recollection of ever having signed a report between
the years 1868 and 1877 f — A. I hare no recollection about any fact.

Q. Do you know whether any report was filed between 1868 and
1877 »— A. I do not know.

Q. In your testimony you have referred to the fact that the company
owned 550 shares in the Guadaloupe minef — A. I do not remember
how much. I knew they owned an interest in that Ouadaloupe mine,
it may have been 550 shares or 550 feet or whatever it was, I do not re-
member now.

Q. Do you know how many assessments were paid upon that stock! —
A. I do not



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THE LA ABBA SILV£B MINING COMPANY. 839

Q: Let me refer yoa to page 288, if yoa pleaae.
The Chairman. Which book, Mr. Foster t

By Mr. Posteb :

Q. That book of testimony, that large book there ; it is a letter of
Mr. De Lagnel, addressed to yoa, dated November 17, and which yoa
have recognized as one of the letters received by you t — A . Well.

Q. You will find, along down toward the bottom of the page, at the
beginning of the paragraph speaking of this Oaudaloape Company —

At the present time I do not think the amount of the aseessment could be obtained
for the stock m the S. F. market, though I do not know, but hope to shortly . there-
fore the choice seems to be to sacrifice what has cost t9»000 jfor a few hundreas, or to
continue sinking money against your inclination.

A. What is the question t

Q. The qaestion is whether or not yon had paid as mach as $9,000 on
that stock at that timet — A. I do not remember, sir; I know we paid
a namber of drafts. They came in and we paid them off, and I got
mighty sick of it.

Q. Yoa stated that that mine, or yoar interest in that mine, was
bought from Castillo del Yalle at the same time you bought the other
mines from him. — A. That came with the

Q. And that the $50,000 that was paid to Castillo del Yalle included
the cost price of the Guadaloupe stock, whatever it was, didn't itf— A.
Well, that came in with the others. I do not remember whether

Q. Well, the payment of that interest was included in the $50,000,
was it notf — A. I think so ; that is my view.

Q. Now the expenditures of La Abra Company, would they embrace
these assessments, this $9,000 that De Lagnel speaks about, or what-
ever amount are the assessments of t^e Guadaloupe Company t— A. I
don't know. I

Q. Would not they be included in the expenditures for the company;
were they not carried along as a part of the expenditures of La Abra
Company f— A. I don't remember, sir. I don't know.

Q. Well, you were treasurer of the company. Don't you know some-
thing about what was done with the accounts of the company f — A.
No, sir; I do not know what was done. I know yory little about it in

flACt.

Q. Now, when the claim was made against Mexico, this payment of
$50,000 to Castillo del Yalle was included, was it not, in making the
estimate t — A I suppose so, sir ; I suppose so.

Q. Well, was not the assessment that had been made on the Guada-
loupe stock also included t — A It is possible ; I do not know.

Q. Well, what is your best recollection!— A. Well, I have no recol-
lection of it, because I did not recollect anything about the statement

Q. Well, the Guadalupe Cotnpany was a separate and distinct com-
pany from La Abra Silver Mining Company, was it not, and you only
held stock in that company! — ^A. I suppose that was so, in fact, because,
as I remember, the Guadalupe Company was a San Francisco organ-
ization.

Q. But the mine, as I understand you to say in your former testi-
mony, was located in the Tayoltita district, near by ? — A. Yesj I never
saw it.

Q. It was a separate and distinct mine and company! — A. I do not
know as to company. It was a separate and distinct mine from those
others.

Q. Did Exall report now when he returned to New York that tho



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840 THE LA ABBA SILYfiB MIKING COMPANT.

Ouadalape Company had also been driven out of the conntxy t — ^A. I
do not remember.

Q. He said nothing to yon about evacuating that mine f — A. I do
not think he said anything aboat the Oaadalape Company. The fact
is I bad forgotten all about it.

Q. Did your company know at the time it filed its claim against
Mt*xico that the Ouadalupe Company had filed its claim against Mex-
ico f — A. I never heard it until this day, until you said it just now,
that I know of.

Q. You have referred to the specimen of ore taken out of the mines
when you visited Tayoltita. Who brought those specimens of ore away
from the mines t Who carried them down to the hacienda or where you
were stopping! — A. Well, 1 think I hat was done by the servants, or
mozos. I think they had little bags, something like a corn-sack, and I
think the servants took them down. We were all on foot.

Q. Where were the ores put when they were brought downt — ^A.
Well, I think they were put in the hacienda in the room where we
slept.

Q. I do not want you to state what you think. Do you know where
they were put f — A. 1 do not. I suppose they were put

Q. Well^ou lost sight of them after they were brought down, didn't
you! — A. Yes; they were brought down and put in our room where we
slept.

By the Chaibmait:

Q. Do you say now they were or were not put in your room f — ^A.
Well, my recollection of it is that these specimens were brought down
and put in our room. I did not keep any watch of them after that-

By Mr. Foster:

Q. Well, do you know now that they were put in that room and not
some other room of the hacienda! — A. I think they were put in the
room where we slept.

Q. How much of your time was spent in that room! — A. Oh, we
slept there and that is about all.

Q. Do you know how long after they were taken out of the mine
they were reduced to. silver !— A. No ; 1 do not.

Q. You have stated that they were reduced! — A. Oh, yes; I took
some of them to New York, I stated ; I took samples probably of all to
New York in my trunk ; I had forgotten that until I read Mr. De Lag-
nePs testimony.

Q. Then you notice that De Lagnel states that yon showed him a
specimen from La Luz mine ! — A. Yes; probably.

Q. Which assayed $1,300, and which he confirms by his assay of it t —
A. Yes.

Q. Where did you get that specimen !— A We got it from what was
told me was called La Luz mine.

Q. Did you take that specimen out yourself! — A. Well, 1 did not
with my own hands, but I was there and saw them; the mozos or
miners or servants got it

Q. How large a piece was it! — A. Oh, there were several pieces,
chunks as big as your fist.

Q. A number of pieces ! — A. Yes ; several pieces.

Q. Now, where did these pieces go after you saw them taken out of
the mine ! — A. Well, they were put in a bag something like a corn-
sack, carried down and put in the room where Bartholow and I were.

Q. How long did they remain in that room before you left ! — A I



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THE LA ABBA SILVEB MININO COMPANY. 841

think we were there probably about two weeks at the hacienda and
the miue, and we went up there pretty soon after we got there, jnst
how many days or hoars I do not remember.

Q. And those specimens laid in f — A. They were pat in these

sacks and pat in oar room according to my recollection.

Q. And it was one of those specimens yoa took to New York and
showed to Mr. De Lagnel f — A. Yes; bat I had foar or five specimens as
big as my fiat, perhaps.

Q. That yoa took to New York ? — A. Yes.

Q. I want to refresh year memory by stating that one of the Mexican
miners who has been before the committee has stated that there was a
rich vein of ore strack in La Luz mine before Castillo del Valle's sale to
you. Did you hear anything about that while you were there on your
visit J a rich pocket, or 'Small vein of ore from which he took out, I think
it is, 60 or 70 cargas. I will give you the exact amount. There was " a
little vein, about50 or 60 cargas was worked, which yielded good metal.'^
A carga is a mule load t — A« Yes.

Q. Did you hear anything about that t — ^A. No ; it was represented
to me as a tMi mine.

Q. No ; I am asking you about that particular incident. Did you
hear anything of it at that time t — A. No, sir; I did not. I don't have
any recollection of it at alL

Q. You stated that you had no knowledge of mining! — A. No.

Q* That General Bartholow had no knowledge f — A. Not that I know
of I don't think he had.

Q. I want to a«k you whether you had any expert in mining repre-
senting you at the time the purchase of the mine was made f — A. Well,
we had a man by the name of Griffith who went out from New York
with us. He claimed to be— I don't know whether an expert or not,
but he had been in California many years, and in Virginia City ; was
familiar with these things, and said he knew good ore, and he was
going out with a view of taking an interest in the mine.

Q. flow did you make his acquaintance; through Hardy t — A. I
don't know now. I think likely, but I don't remember now.

Q. He and Hardy went out with you together, didn't they f — ^A. Yes.

Q. There was a man named Weidner, that you spoke off — ^A. Yes;
I met him in Tayoltita. He Uved up in that section. He was a German.

The Chairman. Let me interrupt the examination a moment I
want to ask a question.

Q. When did you conclude the purchase and payment for these mines
that you bought from Castillo del Valle : before you left Mexico, or
after jou returned to New York t — A. Conditionally, yes; before we
left Mexico.

Q. I mean, when was it concluded absolutely t— A. I think after we
returned.

Q. And after you brought these specimens back t — A. Yes.

Q. Before you left Mexico, though, it was concluded t — A. I think so.

Q. At $50,000 1— A. I think so.

Q. Was Castillo del Yalle or any of his agents with yoa at any time
when the man selected these specimens from the mines f — A. I don't
think Castillo del Yalle was.

Q. Well, any of his agents or representatives t — ^A. Some of the
miners, but I don't know about any agents.

Q. And he was not there himself! — A. I don't think he was. He was
rather fleshy, and did not speak English, and did not seem inclined to
walk about much.



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842 THE LA ABRA SILVEE MINING COMPANY.

Q. Did yon keep those bags oontaining the specimens taken from
these mines under yonrown personal observation and sapervision dnr
ing the two weeks that yon remained t— A. I don't know. I doo^ think
anybody changed them or anything.

Q. You are innocent on that subject! — ^A. I am innocent on that
subject

By Mr. Fostbb:

Q. I think you have testified that you knew Oolonel de Lagnel had
no mining knowledge! — A. He so stated to me, and I know he was a
truthful man and would not lie.

Q. And you know that ExaU did not have any when you employed
him f — A'. I don't think so.

Mr. Kennedy. All this is going over what we did go over very thor-
oughly and carefully.

Mr. LiNBS. A longtime ago.

Mr. Kennedy. It is all printed.

The Ohaibman. Well, it has all been done to often that we can not
stop it now.

By Mr. FoSTBB :

Q. I want to ask Mr. Garth this question, whether any oflScer or sny
superintendent of the mines at any time during its active operations
and before you finally resolved to abandon them at this meeting of the
trustees, whether there was any officer or superintendent who had any
knowledge of mining; any person who conducted the affairs as an offi-
cer of the company or superintendent who had any knowledge of min-
ing. If there is such a person, give us his name. — A. I don't know,
other than Mr. de Lagnel and Mr. Bartholow (pausing).

Q. Well t— A. I don't know.

Q. I have called your attention to the fact that you have stated that
you have no knowedge of mining. I want you to state any officer who
had any control of the management of the business of this company
who bad any knowledge of mining. If so, I want you to state his
name. — A. I don't know of any.

By Mr. Lines :

Q. Or of reduction f — A. I don't know.
By the Chairman :

Q. Then I understand you that this company during its operations in
Mexico was entirely dependent upon such assistance in regard to min-
ing and in regard to the reduction of ores as the country would afford
them f — A. That is so.

Q. You did not employ any agents in California or anywhere to go
down there to superintend your mines who had actually practical, ex-
perimental, and technical knowledge of mining or the reduction of
ores f — A. I did not. I supposed these men would get them there.

Mr. Kennedy. Kow, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that all that
is really impeaching the evidence of a witness for the Mexican Govern-
ment— ^I mean Mr. Elder — who claimed to be an expert and to have been
in the employment of this company at Tayoltita.

Mr. Foster. I do not know whether the statement is pertinent now
or not, but my question was whether any officer or superintendent who
had the control or management of the affairs of that company. That
was the extent of my question.

Mr. MoDoNALD. I do not see that that throws any particular light on



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THE LA ABBA SILVER MINING COBfPANY. 843

the question. It has ahready been stated who had charge there from
the time the party first took control, and all they knew about it.

Mr. FosTEB. Well, 1 am conducting a cross-examination. If the
chairman thinks I am going over the ground too fully that has already
been gone over

Mr. Kennedy. I wanted to invite your attention to the fact that
Mr. Lines has inteijected into the question also the word ^^ reduction."

Mr. Foster. Well, that applied to officers and superintendents.

Mr. Kennedy. Pardon me a moment. It seemed to me that the ob-
jection to impeaching Elder's testimony, a witness subpoenaed by the
Mexican Government, was one that I ought in duty to make. I have
no personal feeling about it.

Tbe Ghairman. The testimony in the case of course must have its
weight and value whether it is to impeach, or whatever its nature may
be. The qucRtion is all right and the answer is all right. The evidence
is all right whatever it is.

Mr. Kennedy. But there is a rule that^ you can not impeach your own
witness.

The Chairman. Oh, there is no effort to impeach anybody.
By Mr. Foster :

Q. I want to ask you what Castillo del Yalle was doing at the mines
while you were there. I recall this statement of yours on page 193 :

Q. Was it being aotaaUy worked —

That is, the mine —

when you were there f—A. I think not. I think CastiUo was not at work.

Q. Was any one of the fonr being worked when yon were there f — ^A. I think he
had some men doing something in the La Lns mine.

I would like for you to explain a little more in detail what operations
of Castillo del VaUe you saw going on during your Tisit. — ^A. I think
that is as clear as I can state it. I don't think be was at work crener-
ally in tbe mines ; I don't think he was.

By the Chairman:

Q. Did he reside at the hacienda t — A. Yes.

Q. Was his family there f — A. Well, I don't know whether nis wife
was there or not. He had a wife and children there, but whether he was
legitimately married or not I don't know.

By Mr. Foster :

Q. Did you, during your visit to the mines, learn anything from Cas-
tillo del Yalle as to the want of protection by the authorities in his min-
ing operations f — A. I think he had been troubled some time before
that; had been interrupted in his mining operations, and had been in-
terfered with, whether by the military or civil authorities I don't know.
He was a Spaniard and did not speak English, and I could not talk
very much with him; I think he had, but whether it was years before
or during these few preceding years, I don't know. He had been there
a long time.

Q. Well, did it make any such an impression on you as to appear that
the authorities were not able or willing to protect mining interests at
the time of your visit? — ^A. No; it did not strike me that way. I did
not think about it, in fact.

Q. Can you fix, with any more accuracy than you have already done,
the time when Mr. Exall was paid! — A. No; I can not; it was some
little time.



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844 THE LA ABRA. SILYEB MININO COMPANY.

Q. You say it was some weeks ; may have been a month ; may have
been more, after his return t — ^A. Yes; it may have been two months;
I don't remember. I know we got together and chipped in.

By the Ohaibman :

Q. He was not paid^ though, until after he had threatened to sae t— A.
I think that was the trouble, and we would try and compromise with
him.

Q. Did he make this report to you before he was paid, or afterwards f—
A. Oh, before he was paid ; when he came on.

Q. Did he make the report to you before you resolved to proceed against
the Mexican Government, or afterwards f — A. Oh, when Mr. Exali came
back, I dou't think there was any Mexican commission thought of; at
least it was not by me, that I recollect of now^ at all. I don't think
there was any idea of ever bringing any suit against the Mexican Got-
ernment.

Q. Wiien Exall got back ?-r A. No, sir.

Q. And there was no idea of bringing any such suit at the time you
paid him f — A. No, sir.

Q. And you had no idea that there was any such convention organ*
ized under tbe treaty at that time between the two Governments t —
A. I don't remember, sir. It might have been in existence, or it might
have been in an inchoate state; I know that would have made an im-
pression upon me if I had known of it at the time of the settlement
with Exall.

By Mr. Lines :

Q. Could not you have presented a claim to the Mexican (Government
if there had been no commission organized t — A. I suppose so.

Q. You had no idea of doing that f — A. I had no idea of doing it
The thing just dropped dead; I had something else to attend to. The
cow was dry, and I was going to hunt a fresh one.

By Mr. FoSTEB :

Q. To return to the question of Mr. Exall's pay, I think you testified
that he must have had enough to come back on f— -A. I suppose so ; I
don't know how he got back.

Q. Then, did this money yon paid him embrace anything for his
traveling exi>eu8esf — A. I don^t know; it must have, probably.

Q. For he must have money to get backonf^-A. I suppose so; he
may have borrowed from somebody.

Q. Well, did he tell you he borrowed $250, or any sum of money, of
Peiia, at Mazatlaii f — A. I don't recollect, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, how is that relevant to this contro-



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