United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Fore.

Compilation of reports of Committee ... 1789-1901, First Congress, first session, to Fifty-sixth Congress, second session .. online

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Mr. Foster. I am trying to get at the expenses of this company.

Mr. Kennedy. The witness has just stated to the best of his recol-
lection Exall receivi^d $2,000 or $2,500. Now, what difference does it
make what the items of that $2,000 or $2,500 were, whether traveling
expenses or anything else f

Mr. Foster. If the mines \^ere in such a condition that he had to
mil around to borrow money to get home on, I think that is important.

Mr. Kennedy. But that would be a matted of argument. It may be
because there were no banks down there.

By Mr. Foster :
Q. Well, let us prove the fact. Did PeSia ever make any demand on

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the company for money borrowed by Exall f — A. iN'ot that I ever heard
of. It is the first intimation I have ever had of it.

Q. Yon have stated that there were no assessments made to meet ex-
penses of prosecuting the claim before the commission ; they were not in
the shape of assessments were they f — ^A. No, no ; they were voluntary.

Q. They were voluntary contributions f — A. Voluntary contributions,
as 1 understood.

Q. How many contributions were made f — A. I think there were two,
if not more.

Q. When was the first one made ?~ A. I don't remember, sir ; but it
was made about the time that Mr. Adams went out to Mexico, a little
previous to that, or about that time, I think.

Q. You stated the amount to be about 93,000 f — A. I think it was
more than $3,000.

Q. More 1 — A. Yes, it may have been $4,000.

Q. In order to refresh your memory, I refer you to the fact that it
appears that an agreement was made with Adams December 9, 1869,
and it was there agreed to contribute $3,500 on the part of the com-
pany towards expenses. Does that conform to your recollection of the
fact »— A. Yes, it was $3,500 or $4,000 ; $3,500 probably may be cor-

Q. Oan you fix the date when the second contribution was made t — ^A.
No, sir, I can not ; I don't remember.

Q. Either you or Mr. Baldwin — probably it is Mr. Baldwin — referred
to some controversy that arose between Adams and the company in re-
gard to how the expenses of prosecuting the suit were to be paid. It
appears that an arrangement was come to between the company and
Adams on the 13th of September, 1878, and it was there fixed as the
amount to be contributed on the part of the company, $10,560. How
does that conform to your recollection of the amount f — A. Well, I was
in Louisville at the time, sir, and know nothing about it. I understood
something about it, but was living in Louisville at the time.

Q. You contributed to that second sum, did you not 7 — A. I don't
remember. I know they bled me whenever there was anything to be

Q. Well, do you remember whether $10,560 was approximately the
amount they were trying to raise ? — A. I don't know whether it was
$10,000 or $20,000. I don't know anything about that.

Q. How did you become acquainted with Adams ? — A. Well, he came
on to !New York there from General Bartholow, from Saint Louis, and
General Bartholow had engaged him to go out to the mines to prosecute
this business.

Q. Did he come from Saint Louis or the West f — A. He came from
Saint Louis directly, I think, sir, according to what he told me } had
\etters from General Bartholow.

Q. Did you know anything about his mining experience or history ? —
A. Nothing at all.

Q. Did you know he had been in California f — A. Never saw the man
in my life before; never heard of him.

Q. Well, have you learned since the employment anything about

Mr. Kennedy. Oh, I object to that

The Chairman. I do not think that is competent.

By Mr. Fosteb :
Q. Have yon ever been asked at any time to give a deposition to be
S. Doc. 231, pt 2 66

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used before the Olaims Oora mission in the original trial of this oaee t^
A. Never, that I know of, sir.

Q. Did General Adams never ask yoa for a deposition f — ^A. Ko.

Q. Mr. Ely t— A. No.

Q. Never said anything to yon on the subject t — A. No, not that I
remember of at all.

Q* You held the position of treasurer at the time of this meeting at
which Exall made his report! — ^A. Tes, I was there; acted as treasurer.

Q. You continued to act as treasurer, so far as that office was fiUed
by any person, after that time, did you not! — ^A. I think I did, yes;
until I went away. I did at that time I recollect.

Q. Were you aware what steps were being taken in 1869 and 1870 to
bring suit against Mexico ! — ^A. Oh, yes ; contributed to paying the ex-
penses of getting the testimony.

Q. Did you make any offer of furnishing information as to your visit
to Mexico when you purchased the mines, or your knowledge of the
company's operations as treasurer! — A. I did not.

Q. Did you tell General Adams that you were one of the persons who
went to Mexico on behalf of the company to purchase the mines! — ^A.
I don't remember; probably he knew the fact.

Q. Did he know you were the treasurer of the company ! — ^A. I pre-
sume he did ; I don't know.

Q. I desire you to state what amount of stock you hold in this com-
pauy ! — ^A. I subscribed originally 910,000.

Q. Well, how much do you hold now ! — A. And subsequently I ac*
quired $6,000 worth of stock, I think. That is my recollection of it,

Q. Then, you are the owner of $16,000 of stock of the company t —
A. I think so, sir ; perhaps with the exception of one or two shares
transferred to somebody to enable them to hold a directorship.

Q. What is the amount of your interest in the suit that was brought
by John H. Garth ! — ^A. I don't recollect. Probably you will see from
tbe statement there.

Q. Well, the second cause of action states :

II. That on the 15th day of May, 1867, at the city of New York, the defendants made
their promissoir note, dated that day, and thereby promised to pay to the order of
Harrison, Garth Sl Co. seventeen thousand one hanoied and eighty dollars and forty-
seven cents on demand.

My recollection is that you stated that that advance was taken up by
you individually.
A. That was. I paid it, gave my check for it.

By the Chaibman :

Q. Let me ask you what it is that $17,000 note includes !— A. That
includes the sum of the draftsfrom De Laguel and Bartholow and others
that I paid.

Q. Paid first by your firm and then paid by you ! — ^A. Yes.

Q. Does it include your stock ! — ^A. Oh, no ; that does not include the
stock at all.

Mr. FosTEB. This is the advance, and there is one other item I want
to call his attention to in that connection.

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. FosTEB. There is also a statement.

II. That on the 8th day of June, 1867, at the city of New York, the defendants
mode their promissory note, dated that day, and therebv promisod to pay to the order
of D. J. Garth nineteen handred and ninety loUars and forty cents on demand.

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By the Ohairman :

Q. What was that forf — A. That was for the same purpose, bat I
forget now how it was done.

By Mr. Foster:
Q. There are a nnmber of the same amounts heret — A. Yes. I met
my brother and he said he advanced as much money as he was going
to. He had a good deal of money, and Mr. Collins and he advanced
the money and took my obligation, and Mr. Gollins's obligation, and Mr.
Beam's obligation, and I don't know what Steve Nuckolls's obligation
was, for the amount that he had advanced and his own. It was on
account of these drafts that came from California.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. Well, these two items that I have read, amounting to ♦19,170.87,
does tjbiat m Exall of his
intention to draw on you. — A. Well, I don't recollect at all.

Q. Well, it was previously to July 20, 1867, was it nott — A. I sup-
pose so, naturally.

Q. What answer did you return to him, to draw or not to drawf

Mr. Kennedy. Is not his answer there, Mr. Chairman T

Mr. Foster. Well, what is it!

The Witness. Shall I read it?

The Chairman. Yes ; read on.

The Witness. This is dated July 20, 1867 :

D'b Sir : The steamer is just Btarting, and I have only time to sav that your letter
of the nth, by private hand, has been rec'd, advising ns that yon had drawn on me
for |3,000 sold. lu former letters yon will have learned the condition of things here,
and that there is no money to pay same, and that former dr'ft of de Lagnel has been
returned unpaid, and that you were urged to try and get along with what resources
yon have. These letters, no doubt, reached you in time to prevent your drawing, as
no draft has been presented, and we hope by this time there is no necessity for doing
so. I have no time to-day to write more, but hope yon are getting on well : will write
you i'ully as requested. I enclose several letters from y*r mend, yrs truly.

D. J. Garth. Tr.

By Mr. Foster :

Q. I want to ask you a question, and before doing that I desire to re-
fresh your memory. It has been shown in your former testimony be-
fore the committee that the judgment in favor of John H. Garth, to

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which reference has been made to-day, was rendered July 3, 1867. May
10, 1867, you write :

The affairs of the company —

This is a letter to Exall —

Tue alEain of the company here are much emharraased ; a few of the directors have
advas "^d all the money to carry on the operations, and have been nearly ruined by it,
and are uot able to afford any farther aid fpom here, and look anxiously to be re-im-
«barRed Tory soon, irom the products of the mines, and it is hoped that your best en-
ergies will be exerted to afford relief.

May 20 you write —

I do trost that before that date you will have plenty of means to do so.

That is, to pay off this De Lagnel draft that I have just cited.

I wonld now a^ain repeat that I have made every effort possible to raise monev
here and have failed, and I have advanced all I can possibly do, and the other di-
rectors have done the same : the stockholders will do nothing, and it is probable the
company will have to be sold out and re-organized.

ompany win nave xo oe soia one ana re-org
May 30, you write again to Exall :

I can not vet say what can be done in the future ; no meeting of the stockholders
hati been held, and nothing; done to pay off the debts here, now pressing on the com-

June 10, you write to Exall :

There is no money in the treasury, and we have no means of raising any, and a few
of as have already advanced all that we can do, and von have been advised that the
draft last drawn by De L., on 10th April, was retumed protested, and I hope yon wiU
be able to take it np whnn it gets back, promptly.

Jnly 10, you write again to Exall :

In these, as well as in preceding letters, yon were ftiUy advised of the condition
of the company here ; that there bad been no funds in the treasury for a long time ;
that appeals had been made in vain for aid to the stockholders, and that the parties
here who had made heavy advances to the company were anxious for its return, and
refused to make any farther payments.

Again you say, in the same letter :

Too will see, from all my letters that no further aid can be given you from here
and. that you must rely upon the resources you now have.

Now, having refreshed your memory by those letters, I desire to ask
yea whether it was not a fact that the stockholders aud directors had
reached the conclusion before July 20, that they would send no more
money to Mexico f — A. I reached that conclusion myself.

Q. Well, had not the directors and stockholders reached that conclu-
Hion f I have read to you what you reported as to their intention. — A.
Well, I can not say any more than as to myself.

Q. You can state what the fact is, or whether it is a fact or notf Was
it or not a fact that the stockholders and directors had reached the con-
ciasion that they would send no more money to Mexico T

Mr. KsNNBDT. Now, I object to Uiat on the ground that the witness
can not.

The Chairman. That objection is not good. This witness is a reluc-
tant witness, very hard to get down to the point, and I am giving Mr.
Foster full opportunity to examine him on that account.

By Mr. Poster:
Q. You have heard what has been read to you t — A. As I have stated
there has been no official determination by the directors, or trustees as
they might be called, in respect to the matter. So far as I was individ-
ually concerned

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Q. I am not asking about jot individaally. Yon have explained that
enough. We do not want to Lear anything farther on that point. I
want to know the fact as to the stockholders and directors. — A. The
stockholders and directors had taken no official action in this matter at

Q. I did not ask yon whether the stockholders and directors had taken
any official action. I ask you whether they had not determined to send
no more money to Mexico in July, 1867? — A. Well, I don't know. I^
could not speak for individual stockholders or individual directors any
more than I have done ; that is all I can say.

Q. Had appeals been made to the stockholders for further assess-
ments in vain f — A. I suppose that some application had been made to
the stockholders to re-imburse us.

Q. Well, had they refused to make further payments f — A. Well,
they did not do it.

Q. Wasn't the company in a bankrupt condition in July, 1867, and
unable to raise money in New York to prosecute the work, or hold its
property in Mexico f — A. As a company, there wasn't any money to pay
it out of the company. Tbey had no money as I have repeatedly stated.
I state it now.

Q. The question is whether they were able to raise any money ; were
they able to raise any money in New York as a company f — ^A. I would
say that I don't know anything about that, sir.

Q. Who does, if you don't t — A. I state to you that there wasn't any
money in the treasury.

Q. That was not an answer to the question. — A. That the directors
had paid and were paying whatever

Mr. Foster. Mr. Chairman, I wish you would try to get him to an-
swer it.

Mr. E^ENNEDT. Mr. Chairman, I think he ought to be allowed to fin-
ish his answer. He was explaining that the directors had been raising
money on their own responsibility.

By the Chairman :

Q. That was a very plain question. Was the company able to raise
money in New York on its own credit t — A. We did not try to borrow

Q. Do yon know whether you were able to do it or not t — A. I did
not know. I won't say whether they were able to do it or not, because
there was no effort made by the company as a company to raise any

Q. Had the company any property of any value T — A. Not except
that in Mexico — except that mine.

Q. That, as a mine, was of no value T — A. That is a question.

Q. It had no money in its treasury ? — A. No, sir.

Q. After stating the condition of that company to a money lender,
could that company borrow money in Wall streec on its own paper f —
A. We did not try.

Q. Whatisyonr opinion whether they could or not 1 — A. My opinion
is of no value in the matter. My opinion, as an officer, might be of no

Q. I put value on your opinion as a witness. The question is whether,
in your opinion, in that situation in New York, that company could ob-
tain credit in Wall street for any considerable amount f— A. I do not
know what it could have done.

Q. What is your opinion about itf — A. Well, my opinion is, I would
not try.

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Q. YoQ considered it so desperate a case that yoa wouldn't have tried
to make an effort to do it? — A. I wooldn't make an effort to do it. I
didn't try. Individually^ I would not.

Q. Now you have got it down. I am sorry to put you to so much
trouble. — A. I know, but you put it in such a way that I could not
answer it.

Q. No, I put it very direct. — A. I want to say now, if you please, in
reference to this matter of Hardy^ I Und that it was in that statement
and 1 forgot it.

Q. The matter of what f— A. The $3,000 to Hardy was in the state-
ment. I was in doubt whether it was in there.

Q. Whether it was covered by the note of tlTjOOO f — A. I think it is.
You will find, whatever it is, that it is stated in that paper. There is
a printed statement. It was in that statement. I had forgotten the
fact, not thinking of it.

Q. That statement is in a copy-book, is it not f — A. I don't know.
It is in there I suppose. Mr. Lines has it, or Mr. Foster.

Mr. Foster. I don't know what statement he refers to.

Q. Do you mean the judgment of Garth t — ^A. Yes, sir; the judg-
ment of Garth.

Q. The Garth judgment f— A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. What page is itt

Mr. Foster. It begins on page 120.

Mr. Kennedy. Of what book t

Mr. Foster. Document 274. I do not see anything there in refer-
ence to Hardy.

Mr. Lines.' It is in the letter-press copy-book.

By the Witness. Aint there another statement there f

Mr. Foster. This is probably it. Mr. De Lagnel sends a statement
of indebtedness contracted by General Bartholow at the mines ; is that
what yon refer to f — ^A. No, sir; I think there is a statement there some-

Q. '^ J. Y. Hardy, money advanced, $755.48."^ A. That aint the state-

By Mr. Lines:

Q. Is it the statement of General Bartholow f — ^A. No, sir. I thought
it was in the statement of the judgment. I don't know.

Q. Here is something in a letter from Bartholow to you. — A. It is
not in Bartholow's time. I don't know where to And it now, but I know
that is part of the judgment.

By Mr. E^ennedy :
Q. It is a part of the judgment f — ^A. A part of that judgment.

By Mr. Fostee:
Before asking you another question I desire to refresh your memory
by reading from letters from the superintendent to you, the receipt of
which you have recognized before the committee ; the first is the letter
ot De Lagnel of September 7. You will find the extract on page 280.
He says:

The history of the Promontono minea I send herewith, this having only arrived a
few days sinoe.

This, as aU other mines we hold, is secared by prorogues newly obtained.

On page 284, the letter of October 8, from De Lagnel to Garth, treas-
urer, says, among other things :

, I doubt whether your expectations will be ever realized respecting the looked-for
yield of metal from the mines, though sufficient may be had to repay well, I trust.

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The Gaatipamey propertv I have seoared until next Janoary by proiogne, bnt I
donbt whether I will be able to cover it after that date, as I sunpect certain parties of
being on the watch to denounce it, deeinng to work it; therefore they will operate
to prevent the grant to me of further indulgence.

The Guadalupe (or rather the Concordia is where they are working) mine is doinc
poorly, the tunnel handsomely driven and work well done, but no metal. A smaU
quantity at the mine is all the result obtained, and I am lea to believe that they will
suspend operations.

In this supposition I may be wrong; have no authority for the belief but give it
as I do the other information, to put you on your guard.

I read also from page 288 from the letter of De Lagnel of November
17, 1866, at the bottom of the page :

' As I have already stated to you, all the mining property has been covered by pro-
rogues up to January next. What will be the result of another application I can not
say ; but should the worst come to the worst, a force, limited, can be put to work,
and this, with the interval of some months before it can be denounced, will, I trust,
serve our purpose.

Pa^e 307 ; this is a letter of July 13, from Exall to yoa, which yoa
acknowledged the receipt of in yoor former testimony :

Since stopping off we have been trying to make arrangements with the men to
work by shares and by the cargo. I have succeeded in getting four miners to work
by the cargo. They are working in the Arryan, and getting out some ^ood metal.
I hope to be able to keep them there ; by doing so it will secure the mine in every
way. Four miners is all I had there before. Mr. CuUins thinks that in a short time
he will be able to get more men at work in the other mines. We can. do better with
them when they are a little hungry.

Working in this way is much better and attended with the least* expense. They
are provisioned for a week and charged with what they get. What metal thev get
out id assayed ; if it assavs an amount worth working (we pay them in goods ; a little
money now and then), about one-half its assay value. They, of course, will get out
nothing bnt good metal, if it can be found. Ton see, in this way we get the metal
out free of cost, buy it at one -half its value, pay in goods, and make a handsome
profit on them. As long as the men will work in this way (which they will not do
unless they get good metal) it will be our best way of working the mines. We must
not expect them to get out any amount, but what is gotten out in this way will pay
for packing down from the mountains. If I am not able to get men in the other mines
I am privileged by the mining laws of the country to stop working in mined four
months in the twelve.

On page 309 is the letter of Angnst 5, 1867, from Exall to the witness,
from which I read as follows :

The Cristo & La Lnz, which have been worked for over a year, I am privileged to
stop for four months. The Abra I must work ; will put in some men ; see what can
be found. No farther prorogues will be given, and although I have no fear of any
one denouncing the mines, I must not leave unprotected.

Q. These are reports which have been made to yoa by the saperin-
tendeDt, and which you stated you received ; I want to ask you whether
you did not know that the failure to send money to Mexico would en-
danger the loss of the mines — whether you did not know that on July
20, 1807 »— A. I did not,

Q. What did you understand the purport of this information that
has been given to you was as to the condition in which the mines were
at those dates, running back for a number of months previous to July,
1807 f— A. I had hoped

Q. Not what you *' had hoped.^ What did you understand 1

The Ohaibman. He says that he did not know.

The Witness. I did not know. I had hoped that they would under-
stand the business better, and

Q. I will ask you a question on that point. I want to first try to re-
fresh your memory.

Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Ohairman, the proper oMer would be to ask the

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witness a qaestioD, and then, if the answer is unsatisfactory, his mem-
ory could be refreshed afterward. I have not made any objections.

The Ghaibman. That is the proper order. You can ask him the ques-
tion generally, and if the witness says that he does, or does not know,
you may try to refresh his memory.

Mr. FosTEB. I thought probably we might be able to help him a little
in advance, but I find we are unable to do that.

Q. Did you have any well founded belief that sufficient money could
be obtained from the ores to meet current expenses, and pay off the
debts due at the mines to employes and others? •

The Chatbman. At what time f

Mr. FosTEB. In July, 1867. — A. I expected there would be.

The Ghaibman. That was not the question. He asked you if yon
had a well founded belief.

The Witness. I do not know that I had a well founded belief. I
had a belief that they would do so.

Mr. FosTEB. I find in a letter of July 13, 1867, sent to you by the
superintendent, a statement of indebtedness, and he says in the letter:

Before leaving Mazatlaiii I made other pnrchaaea, making the whole amoant which
£. P. &, Co. setued for me (inoluding $500 borrowed) $1,252.94 cash. This cash was
lent and paid for me on my promise of payment by return steamer, which is the one
now coming.

On page 309, in his letter of August 12, which you received, he sends
you a statement of the run of the mill from May 27 to July 13, inclusive.
That statement shows a net loss of $10 per ton on all the ore that he
had reduced at that time.

Mr. E^ENNEDY. Where are you now, sir!

Mr. Foster. Page 309.

Mr. Kennedy. Is that your own statement about the net or loss, or
did you read it!

Mr. Foster. It was my own statement. I see that he is not examin-
ing the book himself. The statement, which is mine, is that it shows a

Online LibraryUnited States. Congress. Senate. Committee on ForeCompilation of reports of Committee ... 1789-1901, First Congress, first session, to Fifty-sixth Congress, second session .. → online text (page 127 of 156)