United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Fore.

Compilation of reports of Committee ... 1789-1901, First Congress, first session, to Fifty-sixth Congress, second session .. online

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He possibly did. 1 remember very distinctly General Slaughter on
that.



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888 THE LA ABBA SILVER MINING COMPANY.

Q. Well, do yoa mean to say that at this interview m which Mr.
Lines employed yon, and explained the object of your employment, that
he did not state to you that Exall had been a witness f — ^A. He did ;
ctiftaiuly.

Q. On behalf of La Abra Company f — A. I have no doubt bat what
he did.

Q. Well, now, did he say anything to yon as to the nature of Exall'^
testimony in favor of the company f — A. Ko; I have not any recollection
in relation to my interview with Mr. Lines as to the natnre of ExaU'^
testimony particularly. I don't think that Mr. Lines entered into that
so strongly as General Slaughter.

Q. Well, did he, or not, say that Exall had given imi>ortant testimony
in favor of the company f — A. Well, I could not say that I rememb^
that he did. He probably did, but I don't remember that he did. There
was nothing that I call to mind now that he said.

Q. Well, (lid not you learn afterwards that Exall had given very im-
portant testimony in favor of the company f — ^A. I did.

Q. And who told you that! — A. General Slaughter. I remember
that. I remember the interview with General Slaughter from the flEM^t
that he was so emphatic in relation to his

Q. I did not catch what you said just nowf — A. Well, General
Slaughter was more emphatic in relation to his belief that Exall's testi-
mony was perjury, cooked up.

Q. Now, what steps, if any, were you instructed to take to show that
ExalFs testimony was perjui^f — A. Well, as I remember it, my in-
structions were directed particularly toward getting these papers and
documents that he had.

Q. Well, how did you expect to prove ExalPs alleged perjury by doc-
uments in Exall's possession that you wanted him to turn over to
you! — A. Well, I had not any knowledge of what these papers and doc-
uments were ; he never stated what they were, except he stated they
were very important and very valuable to the party that General Slaugh-
ter represented.

Q. Did you ever tell Exall that you believed or had been informed
that he hsul perjured himself in his testimony in favor of La Abra Com-
pany f — A, I don't think I did.

Mr. FosTBB. It would not have been a very wise remark for him to
make would it t

By Mr. Kennedy:

Q. What did you say to Exall in regard to the tesmimony that he had
already given f — A. Well, I have not any recollection that I ever spoke
to Exall in relation to any testimony he had ever given. I don't think
I did. I don't know that there was — I am almost positive there was
not anything said on that point, whether Exall knew that I knew that
he had testified I have no knowledge.

Q. Do you mean to say that there was never anything said by Exall
to you or by you to Exall in regard to the position in which Exall would
place himself by giving you documents or any testimony showing that
he had previously perjured himself! — A. Well, I believe there was —
my recollection is that there was something said upon that point, that
the documeiits that he had in his possession would put him in a false po«
sition. There was something said upon that, I remember, but what it
was exactly I can not recall.

Q. Well, how did you meet that objeotionf



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THE LA ABBA SILVER lilNING COMPANY. 889

By Mr. Lines:
Q. First 8tate who said that. — A. Exall himself, yes, I recollect that
Exall did mention the fact l^hat the papers or documents that he bad
in his possession would put him in a bad position if he produced them^
that it might lay him liable, and I don't know what I told him.

By Mr. Kennedy :

Q. Well, try and recollect just what you told him, because, of course,
that was the crucial point of your negotiation.

Mr. Lines. I object to that suggestion to the witness.

Mr. Kennedy. Well, it is cross-examination.

Mr. Foster. Well, you can ask him a question, but you can not state
a fact to him that does not exist.

The Witness. Well, it would be pretty hard for me to say what I
told him. I was liable to tell him a good many things for the purpose
of getting evidence out of him.

By Mr. Kennedy:

Q. Well, what things were you liable to tell bimf — ^A. Well, I would
have told him probably that that could be got over.

Q. Well, how could it be got over.

Mr. Foster. How did you say it would be got over, I suppose you
mean.

The Witness. Well, I have been in a good many things of that kind
in relation to people giving information that would criminate themselves,
and 1 am liable to tell them a good many things sometimes.

By Mr. Kennedy :

Q. Certainly. Now I ask you what you did tell him 1 — ^A. Well, I
could not state exactly what I told him.

A. Well, give us your best recollection f — ^A. Well, I could not tell
you from memory what I told him. I have not any doubt that I told
him it could be arranged satisfactorily so that no harm would come to
him. I have no doubt I told him that. I have no doubt that I did.

Q. Did you tell him how you would arrange itt — A. No; I did not
say.

Q. Do yon mean to say you did not make him any suggestion of that
kind f — A. No 5 our negotiations did not go far enough. The thing had
not arrived at the point where it was necessary to do that. I know that
the question was talked about and the position it would place him in
if these papers or documents that he had in his possession were forth-
coming.

Q. Now, you say that General Slaughter was very decided in ex-
pressing his desire to have Exall indicted for perjury t

Mr. Lines. I don't understand that he said what he was to be in-
dicted tor, Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. Kennedy. Yes, he did. I am quoting from his testimony, to the
best of my recollection.

The Witness. Well, it was his connection with this. General
Slaughter was very emphatic in his belief that there had been perjury
committed and fraud perpetrated, and believed that Exall was party
to it.

By Mr. Kjjnnedy:
Q. Now, you say that Exall raised the point how he would be pro-
tected in case those documents put him in the position of having been
a perjurer t



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89U THE LA ABBA SU^VEB MINING COMPANY.

Mr. Lines. I object to that. My objection is that he said that Ezall
raised the point that he would be put in an embarrassiug position.
The Witness. Lay himself liable to be prosecuted.

By Mr. Kennedy :

Q. That is it. Now, do yon say that Exall himself, or Kittelle for
Exjill, offered to sell you certain papers for $25,000 f — A. I do not.

Q. What do you say t— A. I did not

Q. What did you say on that point Y — A. My recollection is that Ex-
all said, and I have no doubt he did mention — I am certain now that
be mentioned the amount — that if they knew the contents of the doca-
mentB that he had in his possession they would not hesitate to give
$25,000 for them.

Q. Did they ever show you any documents Y — A. Never did.

Q. Did Kittelle or Exall ever tell you anything about the character
and contents of the documents Y — A. Never did, only in a general way ;
that they were valuable: that is all.

Q. Now, do you say that yon never told Exall or Kittelle who the
parties were that would protect Exall in case he furnished those pa-
pers Y — A. I don't think I ever did. I don't

Q. Well, did Exall ask you who they wereY — A. I don't remember.

Q. Did Kittelle ask you who they were Y — A. No. I never had but
very little to say to Kittelle.

Q. Then your best recollection is that although this question of pro-
tection was raised by Exall you never told him what parties were be-
hind yon, or what parties would save him from harm Y — A. I haven't
any recollection that I ever told Exall who the parties were.

Q. Or Kittelle Y — A. Or Kittelle. I have no recollection of it I may
have done so, but I have no recollection of it.

Q. Well, do you remember ever having said to either Exall or Kit-
telle that Mr. Lines and General Slaughter and Mr. Zamacoua were
the parties behind you Y — ^A. No ; I have not any recollection whatever
of ever mentioning the names of anybody behind me.

Q. So that you gave neither ExaU nor Kittelle any information as to
who the parties were to save Exall harmless in case he gave the desired
evidence Y — A. No 5 my recollection now, as I remember it, it never
came to that point where it was necessary to give up the name of any-
body. It was simply in conversation mentioned that if such a thing
was done it would place him in a bad position, but my recollection is
that it never went to that point.

Q. Did you ever suggest an interview between Exall and Mr. Zam-
aconaY — A. I never did ; I have no recollection that Zamaoona's name
was ever mentioned.

Q. Was Mr. Zamacona, during your negotiations with Exall, in the
city of New York Y — ^A. I never beard Zamacona's name mentioned but
once in relation to it, and that was one day that I met General Slaughter
in New York and he asked me to walk down to Zamacona's office with
him, and I did.

Q. Now, at that interview with Zamacona what was said in regard to
these negotiations with Exall Y — A. I did not have an interview with
Zamacona. I was in the room and General Slaughter had some conver-
sation with him. I don't remember that I ever did have an interview
with Zamacona personally myself.

Q. Well, did you hear what passed between General Slanghter and
Zamacona? — A. I don't remember: I have no recollection now that I
did.



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THE LA ABBA SILVER MINING COMPANY. 891

Q. Well, where were you standingt — A. I remember being In his
office. I remember going to his office with General Slaughter. We
walked down Broadway together. I don't know that I had any partic-
ular object in going there.

Q. Well, where was Zamacona's office t — A. In Broadway, between
Eector and Morris streets; I could not tell yon the number, somewhere
in the 40's.

Q. What did General Slaughter tell you he wanted you to go to Gen-
eral Zamacona's for f — A. He did not tell me. He said he was going to
General Zamacona and we walked down together.

Q* Did he ask you to go with him ? — A. Of course he asked me to go
with him or I should not have gone.

Q. And you were present in the room with him during this conversa-
tion with Zamacona t — ^A. I was in the office; whether the interview
between General Slaughter took place with Zamacona in the same
room

Q. Do not you remember anything that was said by Slaughter to
Zamacona or Zamacona to Slaughter Y— A. x^o ; I don't remember that
I ever heard a word passed between them.

Q. Were you introduced to Zamacona Y — ^A. I think I was.

Q. Did Slaughter tell Zamacona what your employment was in this
case f — A. My recollection is that he did ; that General Slaughter in-
troduced me and told him what my connection with the case was, but
the interview was a very short one ; it did not last more than two or
three minutes. I was not in the office but two or three minutes. Very
little transpired.

Q. Now, who did you say it was suggested a price for these documents
of $25,000 f — A. Well, I don't say that there ever was a price suggested.
I say I remember distinctly of Exall fixing that as a price that they
would pay for them if they knew what he had.

Q. Now, at that interview with Exall, when he made that suggestion,
who was present t — A. I don't think there was anybody present. I
don't think

Q. Now, be particular about that. — A. I don't remember that. I
never met Exall in the presence of anybody. • My recollection is now
that when I met Exall it was alone. It is possible that I met him — I
have not any recollection that I ever met him with anybody else except,
possibly, Kittelle ; and I have no recollection that I ever met him with
Kittelle, because I know when the negotiation between Exall and me had
arrived at a certain point, and I believed that something would come of
it, and these documents would be produced, Mr. Kittelle suddenly ap-
peared upon the scene and met me, as I thought at the time, accident-
ally, in the street; I remember distinctly where it was, corner Nassau
street and Pine; and he stopped me and talked the matter over, and
he did not impress me very favorably, and I had very little to say to
him.

Q. Was that before you met Kittelle that this price of $25,000 was
named ! — A. It was.

Q. And how long before that was it that Slaughter introduced you
to Zamacona ! — A. How long before that !

Q. Yes. — A. Oh, it was after that.

Q. Well, how long after that did this introduction happen! — A. Well,
I could not say how long afterwards.

Q. Well give us your best recollection. — A. Well my impression is it
was not a great while after. The whole matter did not extend over a
very long period of time.



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892 THE LA ABBA SILVER MINING COMPANY.

Q. I^ow to whom did yoa make reports of the progress of your ne-
gotiations with Exall t — A. To Mr. Lines, I think.

Q. Well, did Mr. Lines remain in the city f — ^A. In New York t

Q. Yes.— A. :No.

Q. Then how did yoa report to him t — A. My recollection is that I
wrote to him myself, and yet I am

Q. Well, how many times did you write to himt — A. I couldn't say.

Mr. Foster. He said that he could not say that he wrote to him.

The Witness. I don't know how it was done. It is possible that
I used to report to Mr. Hale. I don't remember how it was. Mr. Lines
was in the city very often. I saw him a number of times there.

Q. Now, to refresh your recollection about that, you say perhaps yoa
reported to Mr. Hale ; what is your best recollection as to that fact f—
A. My impression is that whatever report there was in the case was to
Mr. Lines personally, when he came to New York, either him or General
Slaughter. 1 can not call to mind now that I ever received any letters
from Mr. Lines.

Q. No, I did not ask you that. — A. Or that I ever wrote any, but still
I may have done so.

Q. Well, at that time if you did write anything, either to Mr. Hale or
Mr. Lines or Mr. Slaughter or Mr. Zamacona, on this business, did yoa
keep copies of your letters? — ^A. If I had written I would have had a
copy, I think.

Q. Now, have you examined your letter-press book or copies of let
ters preparatory to this examination? — ^A. I have for the last two days—
I have made thorough examination to see if I could find the papers, and
I could not find a paper.

Q. Well, have you got a letter-press copy-bookt — A. No.

Q. So that it' you did keep any copy it would be in the shape of loose
papers t — A. Yes.

Q. You say you have gone over your papers? — ^A. I have, and I have
got a memorandum book of every year, and I have gone over every one
of them, and I find the address of Mr. Kittelle and the name, bat no
particulars of the case.

Q. Well, how do you account for that?

Mr. Lines. I don't think you need answer that, Mr. Fisher.

Mr. Kennedy. Here is a witness — I am not asking him for the con-
tents of any of his private papers — here is a witness who says that he
kept memoranda of his transactions as a detective and copies of any
letters that he wrote in regard to his business. He now says that he
has examined his books and his papers, that he has kept no letter-pre:^
copy-book, and that he finds no memoranda relating to this case. Is
that right?

The Witness. Yes.

Mr. Foster. 1-

Mr. Kennedy, Now, one moment; let me ask my question and you
can make your objection.

Q. Now, I ask you how it is that you account for the absence of any
memorandum in this matter Y — A. Well, about three or four years ago I
broke up housekeeping and stored my furniture, and I suppose at that
time I burned about a barrel or barrel and a half of papers and one
thing and another, and I have the impression that everything in rela-
tion to this matter was destroyed.

Q. Well, did you bum any memorandum books t — A. Well, the small
memorandum book I carry in my pocket; I have got the one for the year
1878.



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THE LA ABKA SILVEB MINING COMPANY. 893

Q. Alul have you examined thatf — A. I have examined that, and I
find the name of Kittelle iu it and his address, where he lived, and
£xa1i'8 name, I think, and that is all there is in that book; the address
and name.

Q. Have you got that book with jou ! — ^A. I have not, no ; just the
name and address. Then I was not certain that it was 1877 or 1878,
and that memorandum book of 1878 just has the name and the address
in Thirty third street, Kittelle ; that is, I imagine it was him ; I never
knew what his initials were.

Mr. Lines. These things are liable to disappear, Mr. Kennedy, in
New York,, we discover.

By Mr. Kennedy :

Q. Now, you were at that time in the employ of Mr. Sampson t — A.
Yes.

Q. Was this an employment by Sampson or an employment of you
indepeudenlly of Sampson! — A. In this matter!

Q. Yes. — A. Oh, Mr. Sampson did not know anything about this
matter at all.

Q. So that he had no connection with it? — A. None whatever. I
don't think he ever heard of the case.

Q. Now, yoa have testified as to a letter from Exall, and you have
said that your best recollection was that Exall was written to and that
he answered. Who was it that wrote that letter to Exall ? — A. I can
not remember exactly now about it; but possibly Weed wrote the letter.
That is something that I can not remember about, is that letter.

Q. Well, do you know what was done with ExalPs answer? — A. 1 do
not.

Q. Do you remember seeing ExalPs answer? — ^A. Well, 1 have a rec-
ollection that there was a letter and answer that came from Exall, and
I saw it; but what it related to, or what the object was exactly, I could
not state. That has gone out of my mind, somehow or another, that
letter.

Q. Now, did Weed ever tell you anything about an interview that
he had had with Exall? — A. I never heard that Weed saw Exall.

Q. Well, that is substantially an answer, but do you say that Weed
never told you anything about any interview that he ever had with
Exall on this business? — A. I haven't any recollection whatever that
Weed ever saw Exall. 1 don't know why he should see him ; can not
call to mind why he should see him.

Q. Do not you recollect at one time asking Weed to see Exall?

Mr. Lines. 1 object to that.

Mr. Kennedy. That is cross-examination, perfectly fair.

Mr. Lines. There is nothing in the direct examination that brings
that out.

Mr. Kennedy. O, yes; there is.

The Witness. Well, I could not answer the question, from the fact
that I can not call to mind now ^ny reason why he should see him, and
have no recollection that he ever did see him.

By Mr. Kennedy :

Q. Well, independently of any reason, is your best recollection now
that you never asked Weed to see Exall or to make an appointment
with him ? — A. It is possible that I did, but I haven't any recollection
of it.

Q. You do not remember asking Weed to make an appointment with

S. Doc. 231, pt 2 58



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894 THE LA ABRA SILVER MINING COMPANY.

Exal], to meet him at a certain placet — A. Well, I may possibly have
told Weed — if I was busy I may possibly have told Weed to go to see
Exall, and told him that he would meet Exall down at the exchange;
I may possibly have done such a thing.

Q. Now, did you ever have any conversation with Weed about the
amount of money that was to be paid to Exall for the evidence that
was desired t — A. No, sir; there never was anything said about the
amount of money that was to be paid to Exall, because I never was in a
position to authorize anybody to

Q. Well, did not you say on your direct examination that you gave
Exall to understand that it would be to his pecuniary advantage if he
turned over these documents f — A. I told him that if we knew what
the documents were, if he would let us know what the documents were,
and if they were valuable, then I was ready to treat with him for them.

Q. Well, did you say anything about getting him to go back on his
previous testimony in favor of the company t — A. I don't think that I
ever said a word to him about that, but that question came up in the
course of our negotiations for these papers ; that it would put him in a
bad position.

Q. Yes, but what would be the use of those papers to you if the man
from whom you bought them still stood by his original testimony f

Mr. Lines. I object to that It is an expression of opinion from
the

The Witness. Well, I don't know anything about that I don^t
know that that was ever talked about at all. I don't have any recol-
lection of it.

By Mr. Kennedy:

Q. Now, give us your best recollection as to what was actually said
by Exall to you, or by you to him, in regard to the position that he
would have to take if he gave you evidence, either by deposition or in
documents, that would show that he had previously committed perjury;
just give us your best recollection of what was said on that subject—
A. Well, my recollection is that in the course of a conversation in rela-
tion to these documents that we had, that he gave me to understand,
or said, that if he produced these papers, that the contents of them
would show that — would place him in a bad position, lay him liable to
prosecution ; that is the impression he gave me.

Q. What did you say in reference to that f — A. Well, I could not re-
member exactly what I said.

Q. Well, suppose you try hard to recollect just how you met that
objection ? — A. Well, I would meet it almost any way for the sake of
gettinp: those papers out of him.

Q. Well, you have said two or three times that you would say almost
anything to him for the purpose ^f getting those papers. Now, I ask
you, because this is a serious business, to tell the committee, as near as
you can, just what you did say. — A. Well, I could not pretend to re-
peat, word for word, what I said to him^

Q. No, give us the substance of it We do not expect you to say it
word for word.— A. Well, I have no doubt but what I told him that
that could be overcome.

By Mr. WiLSON :
Q. How overcome ?

By Mr. EiiNNBDY:
Q. In what way did you mean that he could be saved harmless, be-



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THE LA ABBA SILVEB MINING COMPANY. 895

caase that was the point of yonr discussion Y — A. That i^ these doca*
ments that he had in his possession were snfiQcient proof of the fraad in
this claim, and that it showed that fact, that he wonld be held harm-
less ; that he would not be prosecuted. I have not any doubt I told
him that.

Q. Did yon tell him on whose faith you were making that statement? —
A. I don't think I did.

Q. Did you give him any assurance as to how he would be protected ? —
A. My interview with him did not come to that point.

Q. Did not he ask you how he would be protected in case he gave the
desired evidence? — A. Possibly he did.

Q. Well, don't you remember that he did f — A. I don't remember that
he did ; I certainly

Q. Now, did not he ask you

Mr. Foster. Well, let him finish.

By Mr. Kennedy :

Q. Go on, Mr. Fisher.

A. General Slaughter was the only party whose name I possibly
could have used, and I certainly did not use his ; could not have done
so from the instructions that General Slaughter gave uie.

Q. Then why did you promise Exall or indicate to him that he would
be saved harmless if he gave the desired evidence ! — A. Well, my busi-
ness was to get these documents.

Q. I understand ; but you do not mean to say that you would make
a representation of that sort to Exall without authority from your princi-
pals f — A. Well, for the purpose of seeing what these documents were
I don't know what I might say to him.

Q. Did you ever ask him to show yon those documents t — A. I think
1 did.

Q. Well, are you positive about that ! — A. I am not.

Q. Did you ever see any of those documents! — ^A. 1 never did.

Q. Did you ever ask Kittelle to show you any of those documents t—
A. I don't think I ever asked Kittelle anything about them.

Q. Now, you said a moment ago that General Slaughter was the only
man whom you could have named in connection with the proposed pro-
tection for Exall; did you not say that your first employment in this
case was from or through Mr. Lines t — A. I did.

Q. Well, why could not you have used Mr. Lines's name as well as
General Slaughter's ! — A. Well, my interviews with Mr. Lines and Gen-
eral Slaughter were very different.

Q. Well, tell us in what they were different. — A. Well, General
Slaughter was very anxious to get the evidence of this man Exall per-



Online LibraryUnited States. Congress. Senate. Committee on ForeCompilation of reports of Committee ... 1789-1901, First Congress, first session, to Fifty-sixth Congress, second session .. → online text (page 132 of 156)