United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Fore.

Compilation of reports of Committee ... 1789-1901, First Congress, first session, to Fifty-sixth Congress, second session .. online

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Q. And from the interview in which you communicated that to Gen-
eral Slaughter you went directly to Zamacona! — A. We were on our
way. 1 was giving General Slaughter an account of my interview and
the result of it on our way, to Zamacona.

Q. And that was the first time you met Slaughter ! — A. That was the
first time I met him.

Q. Well, what did you go to Zamacoua's oflSce for! — A. I don't
know. General Slaughter said he was going down to see Zamacona, I
think, and we walked along together, and I have no recollection now
that there was any particular object in going there. 1 can not recollect
any.

Q. Well, you went down there with him ! — A, 1 did. I went down
there with him, and I would not know Mr. Zamacona if I saw him. I
would not recollect what kind of a looking man he is.

Q. I do not care; that is immaterial. — A. Certainly it is.

Q. I am very particular to keep everything out of this except what
is material. You heard the conversation of General Slaughter and Mr.
Zamacona in that office! — A. I don't remember that I did hear it par-
ticularly.

Q. Well, that is what you said in the early part of your examina-
tion. — A. I heard some of the conversation between General Slaughter
and Zamacona.

Q. Now, Mr. Fisher, is not it true that you communicated to General
Slaughter what your conversation with Exall had been, and is it not
true that you communicated to him that Exall had made this suggestion
about the $25,000, and is it not true that you and General Slaughter
then went down and saw Mr. Zamacona in relation to that matter ; now
is not that true ! — A. In relation to

Q. In relation to these interviews between you and Exall! — A. Un-
doubtedly.

Q. Now, you undoubtedly went down there to communicate with Zama-
cona about that! — A. General Slaughter went down there about——



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i)i)4 THK LA AbHA blLVKK MINING COMPANY.

Q. Well, wait a minute now. Is not it true, now, that yon, having
communicated to General Slaughter what Exall had said in respect to
this $25,000, that you and General Slaughter went down and saw
Zamacona about it ; now is not that true t-— A. He went down to see
Zaniacona in relation to Exall.

Q. Well, did not you and he together go down to see him in relation
to Exall !— A. Certainly.

Q. And that was your purpose in starting down there, was it not Y —
A. Well, as we walked along the street — as my recollection is, that as
we walked along the street — General Slaughter said he was going down
to see Zannicoua

Q. Well?

Mr. Foster. Well, we insist the witness shall finish his answer with-
out interruption.

Mr. Wilson. I insist upon his answer to my question.

Mr. Foster. If he is not answering you can repeat the question, but
I object to your interrupting the answer before the witness has finished.
I insist that this witness shall finish his answer.

Mr. Wilson. Well, now, Mr. Fisher is going to answer the question.

Mr. Foster. If I can control it in any way he is going to finish the
statement you interrupted.

Mr. Wilson. Providing it is responsive.

Mr. Foster. You can not tell until it is answered that it is not re-
sponsive. Before we go any further I want him to finish that sentence.

Mr. Wilson. I was going to say in order to save trouble that he can
finish it now.

Mr. Foster. The stenographer will just read to where he left oflf.

The stenographer read the answer, as follows :

A. Welly as we walked along the street — as my recolleotion is, that as we walked
along the street— General Slaughter said he was going down to see Zamacona

The Witness. Well, that is my recollection of it; that he said he was
going to see Zamacona, and he asked me to walk along, and I walked
along and I went there with him. I have no recollection that I had any
particular object in going there.

By Mr. Wilson :

Q. Well, I have not asked you about any particular object, Mr.
Fisher. I simply asked you this question : You were introduced to Mr.
Slaughter ; that was the first time you had ever seen him Y — A. That is
the first time ; yes, sir.

Q. But you told General Slaughter what had occurred between you
and Exall!— A. I did.

Q. And you told General Slaughter of the suggestions he had made
in respect to this $25,000; that you told him ! — A. I think I did.

Q. Now, did not you and General Slaughter just start down to see
Mr. Zamacona in respect to all these conversations ? — A. No, sir. We
walked along the street; my recollection is we walked some distance
before I knew where he was going ; my recollection in regard to that
is very clear; that on our way down Broadway he said he was going to
Zamacona's office, and asked me to go along with him; and on our way
down I was telling him ; of course I had known previously to that that
General Slaughter was connected with the case.

Q. How did you find out that General Slaughter was connected with
the case? — A. Why, heard it from Mr. Lines.

Q. Did you know it in any other way? — A. No.

Q. How many interviews had you had with Mr. Lines before this



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THE LA ABRA SILVER MINING COMPANY. 906

commanioation to General Slaughter T— A. Well, I coald not say how
many. I had seen Kv. Lines a number of times in New York.

Q. About this business! — ^A. Yes. I couldn't say how many times,
but I (pausing).

Q. Well, finish you answer! — A. No; that is all.

Q. Weil, you were going to say something else, and you do not want
to T — ^A. Oh, no; I said that I knew that General Slaughter was in the
case; that is all.

Q. And you knew that only through Mr. Lines T — ^A. That is all. I
bad heard his name mentioned as being connected with the case.

Q. Well, but you said you employed Weed t — A. Yes; my recollection
IS that I did employ Weed after the time that Kittelle appeared in the
case.

Q. Well, about what time was that T— A. O, that was some time after
Exall and I had been talking the matter over and talking about these
documents. ' Kittelle appeared upon the scene and commenced to tell
me about what he knew about them, and so on.

Q. What did you employ Weed to do t — A. To find out who Kittelle
was.

Q. And any other purpose! — A. I don't remember that Weed was
employed for any other purpose, except to find out who this man Kit-
telle was.

Q. Did you have any correspondence with Exall T — A. I can not re-
member that I ever did.

Q. Did you write him any letters t — A. I may have done it. I have
a kind of an indistinct recollection that there were some letters, but if
there was any letter outside of the one I have got in my mind, I can
not recall it

Q. What is the one you have in your mindt — ^A. That there was a
letter written to Exall, I believe, for the purpose of drawing an an-
swer from him. As far as the letter business is concerned with Exall,
I can not remember.

Q. Did you write the letter yourself or have somebody else write
itt— A. I don't think I did.

Q. Well ; what is your recollection on that t — A. Well, my recollec-
tion is not good enough to — I can not state about that letter busi-
ness.

Q. Did you make any appointment by letter or ask him to make any
appointment with you by letter t— A. Possibly.

Q. Well, what is your recollection about it T — A. I can not recollect
positively. There may possibly have been an appointment made with
him by letter, but I have no recollection of it.

Q. Has it ever been brought to your attention that the Mexican min-
ister was to be soon in New York and that you wanted to have a com-
munication from Exall in anticipation of his coming T — A. The Mexican
minister; no, sir: never heard of it.

Q. Never heard of it ; you are sure of that t— A. Yes.

Q. You never invited Exall to fix a place where he could meet you,
or would meet you, because the Mexican minister was coming over, and
you wanted to see him before the Mexican minister came T — A. Oh, there
may possibly something of that kind have passed between us. I think
I do remember — I have an indistinct recollection of something of the
kind transpiring, but not with the authority of the Mexican minister.

Q. Oh, I am not talking about the authority of the Mexican minister
now. If anything of that kind did transpire, had you any knowledge



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906 THE LA ABBA SILVER MINING COMPANY.

of tbe Mexican minister coining T — A. I had not; not that I remember
of. I have no recollection of it.

Q. Yon have no recollection of itt — ^A. No, sir.

Q. Well, do you say it did not happen! — A. Whatt

Q. That the Mexican minister was coming over. — ^A. I had no busi-
ness with tbe Mexican minister whatever.

Q. Well, if anybody had informed you that the Mexican minister was
coming to New York who gave you that information T— A. I don't think
anybody did ; I have not any recollection that anybody did.

Q. Well, you have no recollection on that subject whatever t— A. No 5
I am quite sure that there was not anybody ever gave me any knowl-
edge about the Mexican minister.

Q. Well, you would not report a thing to Exall that was not true,
would you ? — A. Well, I am not prepared to say that exactly.

Q. No Y — A. The time I was negotiating for these papers I may have
said somethings that would not bear very close investigation, for the
purpose of getting these papers from him.

Q. Yes T — A. It is possible } I don't say it was so, but it is possible.

Q. But you have no recollection whatever on the subject now, have
youf — A. ^o.

Q. What?— A. No; I have not.

Q. And you have no recollection of ever having even written a letter
to Exall ? — A. Well, I have an indistinct recollection of it, but my rec-
ollection is not ^ood. I could not — it is not clear enough to testify.
I don't know anything of the particulars about it. I have an indistinct
recollection that I did write or cause a letter to be written to him, but
my recollection is very vague on that;

Q. Well, what is your recollection as to whether you told him the
truth or not if you did write him a letter t — A. Well, 1 could tell better
if I knew what the letter was about.

Q. I know you could, but I am testing your recollection now. — A. Well,
my recollection on that question of writing letters is very vague. I am
not clear enough on that to testify.

Q. Well, what is your recollection as to whether you told the truth in
any letter you may have written t — A. Well, my recollection is that
Exall was acting in a very strange manner, and my recollection is that
he had deputized this man Eittelle and tried. to keep under cover. I
got suspicious of him, and my recollection of his

Q. Well, is not this about your recollection, that you were trying to
play him and he was trying to play you t — A. Possibly.

Q. Well, did not it look a good deal that way to you t — A. Well, I
can not say what he was tryiug to do, I am sure.

Q. Well, did not it look a good deal to you, as a detective, that he
was playing fast and loose with you just as you were playing fast and
loose with him f — A. I can not call to mind now. I don't know what
he was to gain by it.

Q. He professed to have papers that were worth to the Mexican Gov-
ernment $25,000, did he notf — A. Yes.

Q. And he utterly refused to let you look at these papers, did he
not? — A. He did, yes ; he refused to produce any of them.

Q. And he utterly refused to tell you what was in them t — A. Well,
in a general way.

Q. Well, in a general way, and the general way was that they would
be of value to the Mexican Government T— A. Well, in a general way
tbey would show — I remember distinctly he stated he had papers in his
possession that would show that the losses were not aa they were made
to appear.



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THE LA ABBA BILVEB MINING COMPANY. 907

Q. Well, recurring to that quest! on, jast take your letter and see it
it is as you remember it now flianding it to witness].

Mr. Lines. What page is thatt

Mr. Wilson. Page 774.

The Witness. Yes ; I have an indistinct recollection of that. Yes,
there is no doubt I wrote that letter to him.

Q. Now, I will take this copy and you hold that in your hand. Yon
say—

The Mexican minister is expected to arrive in this city either to-morrow or Wed-
nesday, and I should lilce to see yon before I see him.

Is that truef — A. Is it true about my seeing the Mexican minister!

Q. No, no; is that statement true t That is what I am talking about.^
A. I had no api)ointment with the Mexican minister.

Q. Well, that is not what I asked you. — ^A. No; that was simply
for the purpose of meeting him.

Q. For the purpose of meeting who t — ^A. Exall.

Q. Well, you say that this statement is not true; that is the first
thing you say, is it f — A. Well, there was something about that. I for-
get exactly, now.

Q. I have not asked you about that. Is that statement true T — ^A.
The statement that I wanted to see him before I saw the Mexican min-
ister Y No. I never had any appointment with the Mexican minister.

Q. I did not ask you if you haid any appointment with him.

Mr. FosTBB. Well, what statement? Perhaps if you explain

By Mr. Wilson :

Q. << The Mexican minister is expected to arrive in this city either
to-morrow or Wednesday.^ Is that true? — A. Well, I believe that he
was to arrive, that I had heard that he was to arrive there, but

Q. That is exactly what we want to get at. — A. That is what I am
trying to think, and I forget now how I did hear it. I believe I did
hear he was to be in New York.

Q. Well, who told you ? — A. Oh, I could not say. I don't remember.
My impression is that the Mexican minister was to be in New York and
that I was anxious to see Exall.

Q. Before you saw the minister ?— A. No, not before I saw him, be-
cause I would not see him.

Q. Well, before you saw somebody who would see him ; is that what
you mean ?— A. Possibly ; I am not positive about it.

Q. Well, probably, is it not ? — A. Well, I don't remember as to that
I can not recall it. I can not clear my memory on that thing some way.
I recollect there was something about it when I come to rea^d the letter.

Q. Well, now, when you come to read that letter does not it refresh
your recollection that the Mexican minister was to be consulted in re-
spect of the payment of this $25,000 ? — A. No, sir j never heard a word
about it.

Q. That does not refresh your recollection a particle ? — A. Never a
woril passed between the Mexican minister and myself nor anybody
connected with the Mexican minister.

Q. I did not say there was. The stenographer will read the question
again.

The stenographer read the question as follows :

Q. Well, now, wheo yon come to read that letter, does not it refreeh yonr reooUeo-
tion that the Mexican minister was to be consulted in respect of the payment of this
125,000.

The Witness. No, su.

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908 THE LA ABKA tilLVEK MIMNQ COMPAQ 1.

By Mr. Wilson :

Q. That dou't refresh your recollection a particle f — A. Ho, sir.

Q. Then what did yoa want to see Exall for before you saw the
Mexican minister Y — A. Well, Exall had mentioned the fact about this
825,000, and 1 was urging and anxious to have Exall produce some of
these papers or produce the contents of them. I did not know what
they were, but that they related in some way, and trying to get Mr.
Exall to state what these papers contained.

Q. Exactly. In other words you wanted to get a little more definite
information in regard to these papers before yon communicated with
the Mexican minister as to the 8:35,000; is not that sot — A. No, sir;
there was never a word said by the Mexican minister or anybody con-
nected with him.

Q. My dear sir, I ask you no such question as that whatever.

Mr. Foster. Well, he answered your question specifically.

Mr. Wilson. No. Just read the question again and let me ask

Mr. Foster. If that is not an answer what answer can he make T

Mr. Wilson. I want the question read.

(The stenographer read the question as follows :)

Q. Exactly. In other words you wanted to get a little more definite information
in regard to these papers before yon oommnnicated with the Mexioan minister as to
the $25,000 Is not that so f

The WiTNES?. I say that I did want to get from Exall information
before I communicated about the $25,000

By Mr. Wilson :

Q. Well, you had already received from him the statement that he
had these papers 1 — A. Certainly.

Q. You had already received from him the statement that he thought
they were worth 825,000 to the Mexican Government t — A. Yes, that he
thought so.

Q. That he claimed they were worth that ; you had received that! —
A. Yes.

Q. But you had not received any definite Information as to what the
papers contained T — A. I had not.

Q. But you had communicated before this time to Mr. Lines or to
General Slaughter what Exall had said to you about these papers t— A.
Undoubtedly.

Q. Yes, you had communicated that to General Slaughter and Mr.
Lines? — A. Yes.

Q. Very well, but you were not able to communicate, to them what
the papers contained or give them very definite information as to what
they were ! — A. No, sir.

Q. And you wanted to get a further interview with him in respect to
these papers t — A. Yes.

Q. And so you wrote him this letter j is that it T — A. Well, I don't
remember exactly what the object was in writing that letter to him but
it was something in relation to that.

Q. Well, you wrote him this letter after you had received all this in-
formation f — A. From him t

Q. Yes. — A. Undoubtedly.

Q. And after you had communicated what you had received from him
to Mr. Lines and General Slaughter. — A. Yes.

Q. Now, you say to him that "the Mexican minister is expected to ar-
rive in this city either to-morrow or Wednesday, and I should like to
see you before I see him,^ and you say that when you wrote that letter



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THE LA ABRA SILVER MINING COMPANY. 909

yoa wrote it with a parpose of gettiug more defiuite iuformatioQ about
these papers ? — A. I did.

Q. We \^ill leave that right there. Now, will yoa tell us who paid
you for your services in this matter ! — A. Mr. Lines.

Q. How much!— A. Oh, I couldn't tell.

Q. How long were you at work at it !— A. Not very long.

Q. A week f— A. Oh, yes.

Q. A month f — A. Oh, it extended more than a month ; not continu-
ous work, but it extended— I forget now how long it did.

Q. Can you give us any idea as to how much money was paid you for
your service in this matter?— A. I could not.

Q. Was It $50 !— A. I presume it was.

Q. One hundred dollars I — A. Ob, I couldn't say how much.

Q. Five hundred dollars ! — A. Oh, no.

Q. Well, give us your impression about it; that is what I want now. —
A. I could not form the slightest idea of how much 1 received. I recol-
lect receiving a check or money or something — my pay in the case-^but
how much it was I could not say.

Q. Yes; a check, was HI — A. I don't remember as it was.

Mr. Foster. He said a check or money.

The Witness. I remember receiving a check or money, but could
not tell how much it was. I remember receiving my pay, and I can state
my recollection ; it was not a hundred dollars.

By Mr. Wilson :

Q. Where were you when you got it ! — A. In New York, at the Treas-
ury.

Q. Well^ if you recollect that it was at the Treasury, can not you tell
US who paid it ? — A. I don't remember how I got it.

Q. Who paid Weed for his services t — A. I did.

Q. How much did you pay him ? — A. I don't remember ; not much.

By Mr. Lines :

Q. You said that Eittelle stopped you on the street. Had yon ever
seen him before T

Mr. Kennedy. Well, did he say that, Mr. Chairman, that Eittelle
stopped him on the street T That is not my recollection.

Mr. Foster. Well, just ask him, Mr. Lines.

By Mr. Lines :
Q. Did you say that f — A. Yes ; I said I met him in Nassau street,
near Pine.

By Mr. Kennedy :

Q. Well, did you say that he stopped you on the street t — A. Yes.
By Mr. Lines :

Q. Had you ever seen him before f — A. I think I had seen him before*

Q. Do you recollect how you were first introduced to Kittelle? — A.
My recollection is that I was not introduced to him. As I remember
it now, he was in company with Exall, when I met Exall once, and I
was not introduced to bim. That is my recollection, and Exall failed
to meet me antl

Q. You do not recollect whether Exall introduced bim to you or
uotf — A. I don't recollect that be did.

Q. Now, about how often do jou think you saw Exall alter you saw
€toneral Slaughter f — A. Well I could not say, but I did not see him

S. Doc. 231, pt 2 69



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910 THE LA ABRA SILVER MINING COMPANY.

very ofteu aiterwards. My recollection is it, was about that time that
Kittelle appeared on the scene.

Q. Now, if I understand you, you say fhat in your interviews with me
you got fiom me the impression that Exall was an officer of this company
and liable as such to have books and papers and documents of the com-
pany f — A. Yes.

Q. Now, I ask you whether you recollect anything else being the sub-
ject-matter of your interview with me than such papers and documents
or the procurement of them irom Exall f — A. 1 don't remember of any-
thing else.

Q. As I understand you, it was after you had seen General Slaughter
that this question came up in your interviews with Exall as to the em-
barrassment which it would give him to produce documents conflicting
with his testimony! — A. That it was after 1 saw General Slaughter.

Q. After you saw General Slaughter. Was that what j'ou stated !—
A. No.

Mr. Kennedy. No ; it was just the other way.

By Mr, Lines :

Q. It was before you saw General Slaughter? — A. Yes.

Q. And after this you said you thought that ol)je<tion could be over-
come? — A. Yes. 1 remember that question was talked about, and I
gave him to understand that I thought there would be no difficulty about
that.

Q. Well, what did you have in your own mind then as to the means
of overcoming this difficulty?

Mr. Kennedy. Well, I object to that because, while it would be com-
petent for the witness to say what his instructions from his employers
were in regard to the methods of furnishing immunity, I do not think
it is competent for him to say what was in his own mind. I do not see
how that could bind either your side or my side.

Mr. Lines. I do not think it would ; but I think he said he had no
instructions on that point.

Q. You mean to say you had no instructions? — A. I did not have in-
structions.

Q. Suppose Mr. Exall, after turning over the documents, had left the
country? — A. C>h, I do not suppose he could be prosecuted.

Mr. Kennedy. Well, that I object to on the gi-ound that it ie
purely hypothetical and would scarcely be admissible even in summing
up the case; that is, there is nothing in the evidence to suggest that it
ever was suggested to Exall by Mr. Fisher, or the gentleman whom he
represented, that Exall should flee the country.

Mr. Lines. I will not say that, Mr. Kennedy ; 1 am trying to get at
what Mr. Fisher had in his own mind when he made that suggestion.

Mr. Kennedy. I have already objected to the admissibility of any-
thing Mr. Fisher had in his own mind as distinguished from what he
communicated to Exall.

By Mr. Lines :

Q. Well, did you explain that remark of yours to Exall in any way,
that the objection might be overcome! — A. No; I did not.

Q. Mr. Fisher, will you state what your experience has been as a de-
tective in New York; I mean to say how long! — A. Over twenty years.

Q. Commencing when ! — A. About 1867.

Q. In what employ! — A. Well, principally in Wall street; most all
the time.

Q. With whom did you commence this service? — A. Captain Young.



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THE LA ABBA SILVER MINING COMPANY. 911

Q. Who was Captain Young t — A. Captain of the New York police
detective force.

Q. Captain of the detective force f — A. Yes.

Q. How long were you with him t — A. I think up to about 1870 or
1871 ; about three years.

Q. Then after that ? — A. Then I went with Sampson on the stock ex-
change.

Q. What was Captain Sampson's position on the stock exchange T —
A. He was the chief officer of the stock exchange.

By Mr. Kennedy :
(J. That is, chief detective f — A. Yes ; and afterwards, and at the
l>reseut time, chief detective in the United States Treasury in New York.

By Mr. Lines :



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