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Q. Did you have any suspicion or expectation of'that kindt — ^A. X
did not I don't remember that I did.



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THE LA ABRA SILVER MINING COMPANY. 179

Q. Did he write yoa some months since for titles demanded by the
Mexican Government f — A. I don't remember that fact; he may have
done so.

Q. Did yon send any title-papers out there f — A. I don't recollect of
havings done so.

Q. Where are the title- papers f — A. I don't know.

Q- Where were they; did yoa bring them back to New York with
yon from Mexico f — ^A. No, sir.

Q. Where did yoa leave them f — ^A. My recollection of it is they were
sent by General Bartholow, and were with the company in New York
^' afterwards.

Q. Yoa had the title-papers there then t — ^A. The title-papers when
I left Mexico

Q. No, I am talking aboat the time when Exall asked for them. — A. I
snppose they were in New York.

Q. Did yoa send them to himi — A. I did not.

Q. Yoa knew they were demanded by the Government! — ^A. I did
not know they were demanded by the Government. I don't recollect
that they were demanded by the Government.

Q. He says:

By December steamer I sent yon a telegram from San Francisco ; no reply.

Do yon deny getting that f — ^A. I have no recollection of it whatever.

Q. Well, have yoa safflcient recollection of what was done to say
yoa did not get itf — A. I did not get it that I know of; I know I did
not.

Q. Yon did nott— A. I know I did not.

Q. He says:

The parties I sent the dispatch to in San Francisco sent it on to New Tork.

A.» xes.

Q. Did yoa know that he was owing considerable and had no means
of paying anything! — ^A. I sapposed he woald have the means of pay-
ing when he got the mill ranning; that he woald be able to pskj his
way, at least.

Q. He asks yoa:

What is yonr intention; is it to let yonr interests here go to the dogs?

A. I have no recollection of any snch letter.

Q. Or any ^^nestion of that sort being pat to yoa by Mr. Bxall t^A.
No, sir.

Q- Well, what was yoar intention at that time, Janaary 24, 1868 f — ^A.
Our intention was to let the works pay their own way.

Q. And sappose they did not f ^A. Well, that is a matter that woald
be for farther consideration, perhaps^ by the company. So fiur as I was
concerned myself. Senator, I did not intend to pay any more money oat
of my own pocket towards the carrying on of the enterprise, as I have
tried to state several times.

Q. He says:

If hy the next steamer I reoeiye no assistance ftom yon I intend leaving for the
/ East.

Do yoa recollect his giving yoa sach notice as that f — ^A. I do not.
Q. Were yon surprised when yon found him in New York f — A. Yes
I did not expect him.
Q. Who came with him f ^ A. I don't know.
Q. Did you order him back to the mines f — ^A. I did not.



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180 THE LA ABBA SILVER MINING COMPANT.

Q. Why notf — A. Well, he said he had left the coantry becaase he
did not consider it safe, and snch was the condition of affairs that it
could not be worked to advantage, or could not be worked at all with
safety to life and property ; that was the expression, and the company
just let the thing go.

Q. Did he say anything to yon about the want of means to carry on
the work at that time! — A. I don't remember.

Q. Nothing about that f — ^A. I don't remember.

Q. Did he tell you how many hands he had left at the mines f — ^A.
If o, sir.

Q. Did he not tell you he had left only one man f — A. Not that I re-
member.

Q. Did he tell you he had been sued by the Bank of Oalifomlaf— A.
I don't remember it.

Q. Did he tell you unless you intervened some way the bank would
get possession of the property t — A. No, sir ; I know he did not. The
Bank of Galifomia was trying to get the money out of us.

Q. He did not inform you that he had been sued thenf — A. I have
no recollection of it.

Q. Well, if he had informed you you would remember it f — ^A. Prob-
ably.

Q. Did not he say : ^< I have been doing everthing in my power to
keep the Bank of Galifomia from getting possession" of the property t —
A. I recollect nothing of that sort.

Q. Did not he tell you he could prevent them no longer and feared
they would eventually have their own way f — A. I recollect nothing of
the sort.

Q. Mr. Oullins, you say, came to New York t — A. Yes, sir ; came
with Mr. Hardy.

Q. Came before Exall didf — A. Oh, yes.

Q. How long before f — ^A. I dont know. He went back; after com-
ing to New York he returned to Mexico.

Q. Was that in January, 1868f — ^A. Oh, no; it was long previous to
that«

Q. Well, he says-
Mr. Cullins (who is not the man he was represented to be) left by last steamer.

A. I never saw Mr. Oullins after he left New York to return to Mex*-
ico. After that date I have never seen him to this day.

Q. Did you telegraph Exall to the '^care of Weil & Oo., San Fraa-
Cisco," as he requested heret — A. I did not; have no recollection of it
at all.

Q. You say you did not t — ^A. I did not; I have no recollection of it.

Q. Did Exall apply to you to know what your intentions were aboat
keeping up the minef — ^A. When he came backf

Q. At any time! — A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember that he ever asked you whether you intended
to go on with the work or notf — ^A. I don't remember now.

Q. I see a note here from Exall to Granger, which I will read, dated
February 21, 1868 (page 87):

TATOLTiTAf Ftlbrwary 21, 186B.
Mr. Jambs Qranosb :

Sib : Ab oiroamstanoes are of snoh a nature as to compel me to leave for San Fran-
Cisco, and probably for New York, to inqolre into the intentions of ibis company , X
place in yonr hands tbe care and charge of the affairs of the La Abra Silyer Miding
Company, together with its property.



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THE LA ABRA SILVER MINING COMPANY. 181

Tou are invested hereby with all power confided to me, of ooorBe, acting in all your
transactions with an eye to the interests of the company.

This will to yoQy should occasion require it, be ample evidence of the right pos-
sessed by you to act in their behalf.
Very respectfdlly,

Charles H. Exall,
AdmkMratar La Abra Silver MMng Company.

Did Mr. Bxall inform you that he had made Baoh aathorization
as that to Mr. Grauger f— A. I don't remember that he did.

Q. Did he say anything about iti — ^A. My recollection is that he did
not ^ that he Ic^ the country and left the mines ; left everything as
they were.

Q. Did he inform you what property he left there f — ^A. He left the
mill and the property of the company that was there.

Q. Did he inform yon what that wasf — A. No, sir: if he did —
whether he made any written report or detailed report I don't know.

Q. I did not ask yon either about a written report or detailed report
of that property there. — A. No, sir; he did not.

Q. Never said anything to you about it f — A. I think not.

Q* Never mentioned what property he left there t — ^A. I don't think
he did to me.

Q. Or what it was, or who was in charge of it. Now, did you ever
ask him —

lir. Exall, what did yon do with the property of this company?

A. I don't remember that I did. The idea was that he left the coun-
try under apprehensions that his life was not safe, and he just left
the property there ; abandoned it.

Q. Did he tell you he had to come off in disguise, or anything like
that^ to escape through the country t-^ A. No, sir; I don't remember
that he did.

Q. Did you pay his expenses to New York! — A. Did I pay his
expenses!

Q. Did the company pay them t — A. I dont remember that they did.

Q. Well, do you remember that they did notf— A. I don't think they
did : I don't think that his expenses were paid from Mexico to New
York that I now have any recollection of.

Q. Did you ask him for any account of cash that Mr. De Lagnel had
left there when he went into possession of that property) — A. I don't
remember. I supi>ose there were some statements to the company, but
what they were in respect to his accounts I have now no recollection.

Q. Do you recollect that the subject was thought of at all, about
what had become of the property that was left there in Mexico! — A.
I don't remember, sir; probably

Q. I am not asking you probabilities: I am asking you what you
recollect — ^A. I don't recollect My recollection of it is not such as I
could speak of it. I don't know.

Q. You have no recollection that there was any conversation about
any of the property in Mexico with Exall when he came away t — ^A. I
don't remember it I suppose, though

Q. I do not want any suppositions ; I just want your recollection. —
A. Well, I have no recollection of it particularly at all.

Q. Did you say " particularly at all " ? — A. I say I have no recollec-
tion of the particulars.

• Q. I am not asking you for the particulars. I ask you if there was
any conversation on the subject! — A. I can not recollect whether there
was or what it was.



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182 THE LA ABKA SILVER MINING COMPANT.

Q I do not ask what it was. I ask yoa if there was any coD>ur8a-
tion on that subject f— A. It is probable; I don't remember, though.

Q. Do you remember whether there was or noti — A, I don't remem-
ber. I try to state over and over again that I have no recollection of it.

Q. I don't think yon do ; I don't think yon try to state at all. Now,
do you recollect that there was any conversation on the subgect — I do
not ask you what the conversation was— -of the property that he left
there f — ^A. I think there was, but what it was I don't know.

Q. Now, if there was, state your best recollection of what your con-
versation was. — A. Well, the conversation was that whatever was there
he left there, being unable to continue longer on account of the troubles
and the difSculties and the fear of personal harm, and he just left the
things there ; that is about the substance.

Q. Did the conversation relate to what things he did leave) — ^A.
Nothing more than the mill and the property.

Q. Did Bxall say to you that he abandoned that property and came
off and left it, or that he turned it over into the hands of somebody
elgef — A. He represented to us that he abandoned the property.

Q. He did; you remember that t— A. That he abandoned the prop-
erty.

Q. Who did he abandon it tof — A. He abandoned it to the country,
I suppose ; he left the country of Mexico.

Q. Abandoned it to the country) — A. I suppose so; he abandoned it

Q. To any particular person) — ^A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did he inform you of any person who was claiming it t — ^A. I don't
recollect that he did.

Q. Did he inform you of any person who had taken possession of it 1 —
A. I don't recollect that he did.

Q. Did he inform you of any person who had threatened to take poa-
session of it f — A. I do not have any recollection of it now.

Q. Did he inform you of any proceeding against it of any legal or
judicial character) — ^A. No, sir.

Q. Did he inform you of any military seizuxe of it t — ^A. I think not.

Q. Nothing of the kind 1— A. No, sir.

Q. So that, if he abandoned it, he merely came oft and left iti — A.
Came off and left it.

Q. And without any charge of any sorti — A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. And not by reason of any seizure that had been made or threat-
ened f — A. I think not; I don't remember of that.

Q. And now were you content with that statement, just in that form,
about your property f — ^A. I supposed they had to be content with it.

Q. Had to bel— A. Yes.

Q> Oonld not yon make any inquiry about it or did you afterwards
make any inquiry what became of it t — A. The whole property was then
and there abandoned; the company did nothing tor some years tliat I
know of: several years.

Q. Did you ever make any inquiry of any person as to what became
of the property t — A. I don't think so ; I don't remember ever having
made any inquiry about it.

Q. Made no effort to regain possession of itt — ^A. No, sir.

Q* No effort to do any other thing with it 1— A. Not at all that 1
remember now.

Q. What was the value of it at the time that you allowed it to be
abandoned in this way 1 — ^A. I don't know what the value of it was.

Q. What did you estimate the value of it at that time f — ^A. I sup-
posed that it was what had been spent there at any rate, and, perhaps.



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THE LA ABRA SILy£B MINING COMPANT. 183

much more. I don't remember making any specific valuation of the
property at all.

Q. What do you now estimate that the value of the property was at
the time that Exal] abandoned it and came off f

Mr. MoDoNALB. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know whether that
embraces the title to the mines as well as the personal property, ore f

The Ghaibman. Everything that is alleged to have been abandoned.

Mr. MoDONALD. Bvei^hing that is there — mines, property, and ore f

The Ghaibman. Everything that is alleged to have been abandoned ;
yes.

Q. What do you now state was your then estimate of the value of i t f —
A. I don't recollect that I made any estimate of the value of it at all.

Q. Well, what do you now state was the value of it at that timet —
A. According to my recollection there was about — I think some
$300,000 had been spent there in the cost of the mines and developing.

Q. I do not ask you to argue it at all. I ask you to state what is
your estimate of the value of that property there at that time. — ^A. I
think the value of the mines, mills, property, etc., was at least $300,000.

Q. At that timet — A. At that time, because it had cost that.

Q. And there was $300,000 worth of property that your agent aban-
doned t — A. There was also, represented by others, a large quantity of
ores which had some value ; I don't know what the value was.

Q. Did you add that to the other valuation t — A. Which t

Q. The ore.— A. I should think it ought to be.

Q. No, I am getting your opinion about it. — A. Yes, I should say

Q. Add that to your valuation. What would you estimate the ore
to be worth t — ^A. I don't know how many tons there were and could
not say.

Q. Well, what is your estimate now t— A. I have no means of making
any estimate ; I don't know the quantity that was left there. I don't
know the quantity or amount it would turn out It would be the merest
guess work m respect to that.

Q. Did you not know as much as any man belonging to your com-
pany in New York knew t— A. Possibly.

Q. Did you know as much about it as any agent or attorney of yours
in New York knew t — ^A. I dont^t know.

Q. Is there anybody that you can think of or name that knew more
about it than you did in New York t — A. I don't know ; there were
other members, directors, or trustees, that were fully as capable of es-
timating these things, or perhaps better, than 1 was, who had more
time and gave it more attention. *

Q. Was there anybody who knew of the state of facts better than
you did in New York t— A. I think the president and the secretary and
others knew fully as much if not more than I did about the matter.

Q. FuUy as much, if not more t— A. Yes, sir.

Q. How could they when you were conducting the business of the
company, the correspondence t — A. Senator, you try to make out that
I was the appointed agent.

Q. I am not trying to make out anything : you were there acting as
the controlling functionary, whether you call yourself an agent or not,
of this company.— A. I was there as one of the company.

Q. Well, you will not get off on that. I want to know if there is any-
body you can name in the city of New York at that time who knew more
about the value of the property and facts than you did t — A. I suppose
Mr. Gollins, Mr. Gibbs, and Mr. Worthington knew as much or more
«bont it than I did.



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184 THE LA ABBA SILVER MIKINO COMPANY.

Q. Did not yoa know as much about it as they did, and d.d not yon
have eqnal opportunities to know t — A. It is possible ; I think so.

Q. Now, then, with all this knowledge, what did you estimate the
value of the ores that had been taken out of the mines at that time 1^
A. At that time I don't know that I estimated any value of the ores at
all. I don't recollect of it.

Q. Yon had had returns! — ^A. The whole thing just dropped.

Q. You had had returns of the ores taken out of the mines, had yoa
not! — ^A. Very few. £ asked repeatedly in my letters to Bartholow
and the others for monthly returns that I never got.

Q. Was it important you should liave them f— A. No; it was a gen-
eral thing.

Q. Not important enough to go out or send somebody out to see what
they were atf — A. I would not have gone out to Mexico, and I would
not to-day go out there and live out there for all Mexico.

Q. Now, do you add the value of the ores to this estimate, $300,000,
that you put upon that property) — A. Yes ; whatever it was.

Q« Oan you state what your opinion is of the value of those ores f —
A. I can not now. I can not.

Q. Well, suppose those ores were worth $60,000, then the value of the
property abandoned by Exall there would be $350,000, according to
your opinion 1 — A. I reckon so.

Q. Now, do you think it was larger than thati — ^A. I don't know ; it
is a pure guess.

Q. It is a matter of opinion t— A. Yes ; there might have been more.

Q- Well, this property abandoned there by your agent to the value
of $350,000 or more, I understand yon to state you never made an in-
quiry about it after that time! — ^A. The tiling just fell in a moribund
condition.

Q. You sent no agent there f — A. I did not; not to my knowledge.

Q. Did you appeal to the United States Government about it in any
way! — A. No.

Q. Did yon appeal to the Mexican Oovernment in any way t — a.. Not
that I know of. I did not.

Q. Well, did your company t— A. Not to my knowledge.

A. If they had done it would you have known iti — ^A. I think so.

Q. Then the case is that your agent came off and left $350,000 worth
of property there, and that you neither made an inquiry about it, or
made any appeal to the Government of Mexico or appeal to the Oov-
ernment of the United States about it, and that you sent no agent there
to look after it, but merely gave it up f — A. That was the condition of
things.

Q. And all that was done upon Exall's representation that he had
been imprisoned for two weeks f — A. And, as I tried tostate, interfered
with.

Q. Now, who interfered with himi I want to get at the particulars. —
A. Well, he represented that there is a hostile sentiment of the people
of Mexico to Americans.

Q. Can you name any individual whom he stated interfered with
him? — A. No; I don't remember, because I have no acquaintance
there. If he mentioned them I would not remember.

Q. Oan you mention any official, in his official character, or any per>
son who interfered with himf — A. No, sir; I don't know the offlcialB.

Q. Can yon mention any instance of interference that he infonne<l
you of besides this two weeks' imprisonment of which you have
apokenf — ^A. And the interruption inimical



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THE LA ABRA SILVER MINING COMPANY. 185

Q. lam talking about a siieoiflc instance of interference. — A. I have
no recollection of it now.

Q. Did he tell you he had been interfered with, and then did not give
you the facts showing that he had been interfered with T— A. Why, I
suppose my recollection of it is that he said they required him to work
the mines in a certain way and to put a certain number of men at it,
and that he was generally obstructed in his method of working by the
authorities there, and that the general sentiment of the Mexicans was
hostile to Americans there ; he knew it was not safe for him to be there
and be left.

Q. Now, in what particular way did he say they required him to work
the mines t — A. I dont remember.

Q. What particular amount of force did he say ihey required him to
keep there t — A. I don't remember that.

Q. Did he say the laws of Mexico required these things t— A. No; I
don't remember that he said that.

Q. Well, do not you know that they did! — ^A. I don't know. I have
no knowledge of the particular mining laws of Mexico.

Q. When you went there to start your mines did not you inform
yourself of the mining laws of Mexico T— A. No ; I did not.

Q. Well, was it a surprise to you that under the Mexican laws the
mines had to be kept in operation t — A. I knew something of that sort,
but how or in what way I could not say.

Q. You never stopped to inform yourself about it t — A. Oh, no.

Q. Then you don't know whether there was any interference by the
Mexican authorities contrary to the law or nott — A. Not to my knowl-
edge.

Q. Did Exall inform you of interference contrary to law t^-A. He
told me he was interfered with by Mexicans.

Q. Did he say it was contrary to law t — ^A. I do not know that it was
conti-ary to law.

Q. Did you expect to go out there with this mining company and dis-
obey the laws of Mexicot — A. No; I try to be a law-abiding man my-
self.

Q. Well, if the law required Mr. Exall or you to keep so many hands
there, was that any reason for abandoning the minet — A. I don't know
that it was any reason. I don't know what the law requires iu that
respect.

Q. Well, when you say that Mr. Exall represented to you that they
required him to work the mine in a particidar way, do you mean that
they required him to work it in some way not required or authorized
by lawt— A. I suppose so.

Q. Did he say sot — ^A. That was my understanding.

Q. That he said they required him to work it in some way not re-
quired by lawf — A. Yes, sir.

Q. In what wayf — A. I dont know.

Q. So you had his conclusion about itt — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was he a lawyer t — A. No; not that I know of; I dont think he
was.

Q. Now, that was one of the facts upon which he abandoned it, was
it t — ^A. I suppose so.

Q. You say you suppose so; do you swear it wast — ^A. I swear that
he told me so.

Q. That that was one of the reasons why he abandoned it t— A. That
was one of the reasons; because he was interfered with by the authorities
there.



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186 THE LA ABRA SILVER MINING COMPANT.

Q. No; yoa get back on that. I only want to know if it was this
particular inte^erence, that they required him to work the mine in a
certain way f — A. Well, I could not say.

Q. Now, what other fact was there in connection with that mine
that caused you to abandon $350,000 or $400,000 worth of property
without making an inquiry about itt — A. I stated the fact that when
he came and made these representations the whole thing fell through.

Q. I know you stated that fact. — A. That is about as near as I can
state it

Q. Now, can you state any interference with that business, that
Exall informed you of, of a specific character which caused you to aban-
don $350,000 or $400,000 worth of property, besides what you have
already stated t — A. I dont recollect.

Q. You can not t — A. I don't recollect any more than I have tried to
state.

By Mr. Shbllababobb :

Q. Mr. Garth, I want to get a little more definitely, if you can tell us,
when it was that yon last saw the books and papers of this company,
which were in New York City t — A. My best recollection of that is that
it was when Mr. William Worthington was the secretary, and had the
books in his possession ; I think it was about 1870; along there.

Q. 1870 1 — A. I think so ; about 1870, perhaps. If I saw them after-
wards I now don't recollect it.

Q. You never saw them since that you know t — A. That I remember
of now ; it may have been 1871.

Q. What books did they keep t Just describe the books that were
kept during the period that you knew about their books and papers. —
A. I think it was a cash-book, probably, a stock-book, and a record-
book.

Q. What do you mean by a record-book t — A. Well, a little affair in
which the proceedings probably of the board were noted down, recorded.

Q. Now, you have mentioncMi a cash-book, a record and stock book ;
the stock-book was a separate book from the book that was kept as a
cash-book t — A. Yes, sir; I think so.

Q. And separate also from the book which recorded the proceedings t
— ^A. Yes ; they were very simple, cheap afbirs.

Q. Now, were they all the books you know oft — ^A. There was a letter-
book, letter-press book, in which these letters were copied.

Q. That is to say, the letters that were sent from New York : the



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