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Ohio, so that the Senate sitting for this trial adjourn until to-mor-
row, which will be at twelve o'clock.

The PBESIDENT i>ro tempore. Simply to adjourn will be untU to-
row at twelve o'clock. The Senator from New York moves, that the
Senate sitting in trial adjourn.

The question being put^ tiiere were, on a division— ayes 13, noes
15: no quorum voting.

Mr. EDMUNDS. I ask for the yeas smd nays.

The yeas and nays were ordered.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. Before the vote is taken, I simply de-
sire to say to the Senate that I think the statement of the gentleman
was entirely too broad that the managers had agreed to the post-
ponement.

Mr. CABPENTEB. I said that I understood the managers wonld
make no serious obiection to it.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. So far as the managers are concerned,
of course they prefer that the trial shall go ahead immediately.

The question being taken by yeas and nays, resulted — ^yeas 17, nays
24 ; as follows :

YEAB— Measn. AlliaoBu Bogy, Conkling. Cooper, Dawes, Ferry, Hamilton^owe,
Ingallo, Kelly, Logan, McCreery, Mitchell, Morton, Sherman, Tharman, and West—

NATS— Messrs. Anthony, Booth, Brace, CockreU, Dayis. Edmonds, FreHng-
hnvsen. Harvey, Hitchcock, Kernan, Key, Merrimon, Morrill, Norwood, Oglesby,
Paudock« Patterson, Bansom, Bobertson, Wallace. Whyte, Windom. Withers, and
Vright-g*.

NOT YOTma-Messrs. Aloom, Bamnm, Bayard, Boutwell, Bnrnside. Cameron
of PeDDsylTaoia, Cameron of Wisoonflln, CiH;ierton, Christianoy, Clayton, Conover,



Cragln, Dennis, Doraey, Baton, Goldthwaite, Gordon, Hamlin, Johnston, Jones of
Florida, Jones of Nevada, McDonald, McMillan. Maxey, Bandolph, Sargent, Sauls-
bury, Sharon, Spencer, Stevenson, and Wadleign— 31.

So the motion was not agreed to.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question recurs on the motion
of the Senator from Ohio [Mr. ThurmanJ that the trial be suspended
for half an hour.

Mr. CONKLING. I hope not. Let us go on.

The motion was not agreed to.

The Secretaij procee<^ to read the journal of the proceedings of
the Senate sittmg yesterday for the trial of the impeachment of Will-
iam W. Belknap.

Mr. HOWE. Mr. President, I moye jihat the further reading of the
journal be dispensed with.

The motion was agreed to.

The PBESIDENT j>ro tempore. The Senate is ready to proceed with
the trial.

Caleb P. Mabsh recalled :

Mr. Manager McMAHON. Before you i>roeeed, Mr. Carpenter, let
me put him one question. I may bring it in m/sr awhile; but I
preror to do it in this connection. (To the witness.) Mr. Marsh,
state whether you remember the Secretary of War being at your
house to dinner at any time shortly prior to the publication of the
article in the New York Tribune.

A. He has been at my house to dinner, but I cannot fix the date.

Q. (By Mr. Manager McMahon.) Do you remember any occasion
when Mr. Reid and Oeueral McDowell and he were there together f

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that t

A. I cannot tell you. It is some years ago. I cannot even tell the
year with any certainty.

Cross-examined by Mr. Carpbnter:

Q. Had you prior to the time when these ladies were at your house
made any application or had any thought of procuring a tradership T

A. It seems I was in Washington early in Ausust from a letter
which has been shown me, in wnich I state that I called on the Sec-
retary of War.

Q. I ask you for your present recollection. Haye you any recollec-
tion now of haying made any application or haying had any thought
of it prior to the tmie these lames were at your house f

A. I haye no recollection except fnmi that letter— no recollection
at all.

Q. What letter is it that you speak of f

A. A letter that has been read here and shown to me.

Q. Where did you first see Oeneral Belknap; was it not at Long
Branch f

A. The first time I saw him must haye been in Washington, from
this letter.

Q. Are you swearing from your recollection or from this letter as to
that fact T

A. From the letter.

Q. Entirely from the letter?

A. Entirely.

Q. From your recollection without the letter see if you do not re-
member that you first saw him at Long Branch.

A. Without the letter I should say the first time I saw him was
when he came to my house in September to bring the two ladies to
Washington ; I do not remember seeing him at Lon^ Branch.

Q. Let me see if I cannot refresh your recollection about it. Do
you not remember that Mr. Belknap and his wife were staying at
Long Branch ; Mrs. Marsh was at Long Branch ; you came there and
was introduced to Mr. Belknap ; Mr. Belknap went from there to
Iowa to make a speech at Des Moines at some military meeting there,
and retnmed from Iowa to your house in New Yoric ; do you'not re-
member that you found Mrs. Belknap sick at your house ; do you not
recollect that circumstance?

A. I am not ^ositiye of haying seen him at Long Branch ; it is
quite possible ; it is many years ago ; I may haye done so.

Q. There was some talk between you and the Secretary of War
about your being appointed post-trader instead of Eyans or yourself,
Eyans not being mentioned m connection with it at first?

A. Yes, sir. When I first called upon him he was not mentioned.

Q. Was there are any corrupt agreement or any agreement between
you and Mr. Belknap in regard to being appointed post-trader at Fort
Sill?

Mr. Manager McMAHON. We object to the word " corrupt." Say
" any agreement." I think by nsins the word " corrupt " you are
asking an opinion of the witness. The objection we make is that
the question calls for an opinion as to the character of the agreement
instead of calling for the agreement itself.

The PRESIDESn* pro tempore. Do counsel modify the question ?

Mr. CARPENTER. I do not want to argue the question of the pro-
priety of that interrogatory.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Chair sustains the objection.

Mr. CARPENTER. Read the question.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The reporter will read tiie qnea-
tion.



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TRIAL OF WILLIAM W. BELKNAP.



237



The queetion was lead by the Official Reporter^ as follows :

Q. Was there any oonnpt •greement or any agreement between yoa and Mr.
Bukoap in regard to your oeing appointed post-trader at Fort Sill ?

Mr. CARPENTER. I understand the interrogatory is objected to,
and the ejection is sustained by the court.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The whole interrogatory the Chair
considers overruled. If counsel desire, the Chair will submit it to
the Senate. «

Mr. CARPENTER. No ; I will put another question. (To the wit-
ness.) Was there any a^eement on your part to pay Mr. Belknap
any money in consideration that he would appoint you post-trader at
Fort suit

A. There was not.

Q. (By Mr. Cabfemteb.) At any time f

A. At any time.

Q. Was uiere ever any agreement between you and Mr. Belknap
that you should pay him any pecuniary consideration for or in con-
sideration of his appointing Jir. Evans post-trader at Fort Sill f

A. There was not.

Q. Was there ever any agreement between you and Mr. Belknap
that yon would pay him any money or other valuable consideration in
consideration of his continuing Mr. Evans as post-trader at Fort Sill f

A. Never.

Q. So fkr as you know was not the only inducement leading to that
appointment uie kindness which you and your wife had shown to
Mn. Belknap at yonr house T

A. That certainly had a great deal to do with it, I presume.

Q. Did you make or claim to have any bill against him for any-
thing done for Mrs. Belknap f

A. No, sir.

Q. Tour treatment of her was entirely gratuitous?

A. Tee, sir.

Q. But of course led to a feeling of friendship between the families?

A. Tes, sir.

Q. Ton say that the friendship which arose from the fact that Mrs.
Belknap had been sick at your house, and been kindly treated, had a
sreat deal to do with that appointment; was there, apart from that
mendly feeling, any consideration moving from you to Belknap to
procure that appointment ?

A. None.

Re-examined by Mr. Manager McMahon :

<^. The letter of August 16, 1870, has been referred to in cross-ex-
amination. Was that letter properly dated ?

A. As far as I now remember.

Q. Have you any recollection of improperly dating it at any time ?

A. I have not.

Q. After having seen that letter, I understand yon to say that you
and the Seoreta^ had had a conversation about post-traderships
some time in August?

Mr. CARPENTER. I object to that question.

Mr. Manajzer McMAHON. It is a repetition. We withdraw the
question. (To the witness.) Do yon remember upon any occasion
when Evans &. Co. made payment in a check of Northrop & Chick
to you for $500?

Mr. BLAIR. We object to that question.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. I simply want to call the witness's rec-
ollection to a particular time.

Mr. BLAIR. We object to any question not growing out of our
cross-examination.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. This comes right in yonr line, as you
will seepresently. (To the witness.) Do you remember the fact ?

The Witness. Am I to answer ?

Mr. CARPENTER. Not at present. We insist on the objection.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. State the objection.

Mr. CARPENTER. We have simply cross-examined this witness. We
have shown nothing whatever^ nor have we attempted to show any-
thing whatever, except what is legitimate matter of cross-examina-
tion. They may re-examine in regard to the new matters we have
called out in cross-examination, but nothing else. They cannot go on
now and by this witness attempt to show any consideration or any-
thing of that kind, because that is a part of their case; they have
examined the witness upon that subject and called out from him such
evidence as they could and passed him over for cross-examination,
and they cannot return to it now.

Mr. THURMAN. 1 wish to suggest that even if the question is not
strictly responsive to the cross-examination, it is in the discretion of
the court to permit it to be answered.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The reporter will read the ques-
tion.

The question was read, as foUows :

Q. Do yon remember upon any oooasion when Evans Sc Co. made payment in
a cbeck of Northrop Sl Chick to yoa for 1500 f

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Shall this interrogatory be admit-
ted?
The question beinff put, it was decided in the affirmative.
Mr. Manager McMAHON. Answer the question.
The Witness. I do not remember.
Q. (By Bir. Manager McMahon.) Do you remember any occasion



when he made a payment in a cheek of $500 that yon retomed to
him, without remembering the name of the person ?

A. I remember returning him a check, but I do not remember the
amount. I think it was more than one.

Q. Do yon remember writing him a letter at the time yon returned
a check to him ? I do not ask for the contents of tl:^ letter.

A. I think I do.

Q. (By Mr. Conkung.) Was ihe answer of the witness that this
was more than once ?

A. More than one check, I think.

Q. (By Mr. Manager McMahon.) Tou remember writing a letter to
Evans & Co. about that n^^tter ?

A. I think the letter was to Fisher. It might have been to Evans
&, Co., or to Fisher, one of the partners.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. That is all.

Mr. MITCHELL. I send a question to be put to the witness.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question put by the Senator
from Oregon will be read.

The Chief Clerk read as follows:

Q. Why did >rou send to W. W. Belknap, Secretary of War, the one-
half of the various sums of money received by you from Evans at
Fort Sill?

Mr. CARPENTER. Mr. President, the celebrated Jeremiah Mason
in the trial of a very important case once said, when a judge put a
question to a witness, he being counsel for the defense, that if the
question was put on the part of the plaintiff, he objected to it ; if it
was put on behalf of the defendant, he withdrew it.

Mr. MITCHELL. It is put in behalf of justice.

Mr. CARPENTER. The Government have gone through the exam •
ination of this witness ; we have cross-examined him ; the court has
allowed them to go partially into a redirect examination, and they
have concluded it. This question put by the managers now would cer-
tainly be objectionable, and I presume that we have the same right
to object to a question put by the court that we would have if it were
put by the managers.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. If there be no objection, the ques-
tion will be put.

Mr. CARPENTER. There is objection. That is clear. We ob-
ject.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Chair will submit this question
to the Senate, Shall this interrogatory be put?

Mr. PATTERSON and others. Let the question be reported.

The Chief Clerk read thequestion of Mr. Mitchell, as follows :

Q. Why did you send to W. W. Belknap, Secretary of War, the one
half of the various sums of money received by you from Evans at Fort
Sill?

Mr. CONELING. As I am called upon to vote upon this question^
if it is in order I should like to make an inquiry. Is it intended to
call for the motive of the witness, oris it intended to call for any fact
or thin^ which influenced him ? I wish the Senator who puts it would
make it a little more pointed. If it is a call for the motive of the
witness, I cannot vote for it for one. If it is a call for any fact, I
can.

Mr. MITCHELL. Mr. President, it is not, of course, in order to
argue the question. I think the question calls for a tact. It calls
for the reason why this money was sent. I shall insist on the ques-
tion.

Mr. CARPENTER. Mr. President and Senators, I want to say a
few words further on my objection to this question. You will all
recollect that the examination of this witness oy the prosecution was
very singular and peculiar. You will recollect that I over and over
again objected, objected to their going into it by piecemeal and
scraps and collateral facts and circumstimces, and asked them to push
him right into the narrative and let him tell all there was about Uiis
matter. I was rebuked by the leading manager and informed that I
knew far less about the management of their side of this case than
they did. I of course had to submit to that, and did cheerfully. No
doubt it is true ; but what does it indicate ? It indicates simply this,
that the prosecution here on the part of the House of Representatives
have a scneme of examining this witness.

It was manifest, I think to everybody, where the weakness of this
case lay whei) they had to dodge aiound the case the way they did in the
examination yesterday. Now they have set us an example which we
have a right to follow, when the House of Representatives, after be-
in^ requested to do it, refused to ask this general question and put
this witness into the general narative of the transactions between
him and everybody else important to this inquiry, and confined him
only to specific facts and oircumstancee^ against our obiection over
and over again made. Then we callea the witness and put him on
the stand for a cross-examination, putting no improper qneetion, not
a question that the managers have objected to, and ne has answered
our questions. They have had one redirect examination, the court
overruling our objection to it, to give it to them. Now after this will
this court permit the managers to return to that subject and open
the examination of this witness ? And if they will not permit the
managers to do it, will the court do it themselves ? If a question
cannot be objected to when put by one of the court which would be
ruled out if put by the counsel, then this is a strange proceeding and
we are in a scngular situation. I say this of conrse with entire respect
to the Senator who asks the questicm; but we must have a right to



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238



TRIAL OF WILLIAM W. BELKNAP.



object to the question, and for the porpose of testing whether it is
proper or improper, it mnst be considered as a question put by the
managers, and put by the managers at this time, is there the slight-
est doubt that the Senate would rule it outf

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question is, Shall this interrog-
atory be admitted ?

Hr.THURMAN. Let it be read.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It will be again read.

The Chief Clerk read the question of Mr. Mitchell, as follows:

Q. Why did you send to W. W. Belknap, Secretary of War, the one-
hafi of the various sums of money received by you from Evans at Fort
Sillf

Mr. ANTHONY. I wish to ask whether the counsel object to this
interrogatory at this time or whether they object to it altogether?

Mr. CARPENTER. Both ; because it is out of time and because it
is an improper question.

The PRESIDENT j>ro tempore. The question is on the admission of
this interrogatory.

The question being put, it was determined in the affirmative.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Question will be answered.

The Witness. Simply because I felt like doing it. It gave me
pleasure to do it. I sent him the money as a present always, gratui-
tously. That is the only reason I had.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Are there any further questions to be
put to the witness ?

Mr. EDMUNDS. Mr. President, I should like to ask the witness a

auestion : the reporter can take it down if the Chair will allow it. I
lould like to ask the witness, in connection with his last answer,
whether General Belknap knew, in advance of these remittances from
time to time, how large the present was going to be that was to be
sent?

Mr. CARPENTER. Mr. President, I object to that question upon
the ground that one man cannot swear what another man knows. It
is physically and intellectually impossible. If he could say that he
told Mr. Belknap a thinff, if he could prove any fact, that fact may
be proved ; but cOuld I be put on the stand to swear what the Sen-
ator from Vermont knows upon any subject f I should say he knows
all about it, but any particular knowledge on a particular subject I
could not be called to swear to. Nobody can.

Mr.^ BLAIR. Mr. President and Senators, there is another objection
to this question that I hope the Senate will consider before voting
that this question shall be admitted, and that is that this witness is
a €k>Yemment witness, and that the interrogatory of the Senator is
to impeach the witness on the part of the prosecution. It implies
that he has not stated the truth.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question will be repeated by
the reporter.

The question was read, as follows :

Q. Did G«iieral Bellmap know, in adyanoe of these remittances from time to time,
how large the present was going to be that was to be sent f

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Shall this interrogatory be ad-
mitted?

The question was decided in the affirmative.

The PRESIDENT j>fo tempore. The witness will answer the ques-
tion.

The Witness. I cannot say how far he knew, I am sure.

Q. (By Mr. Edmunds.) Dyi you know yourself how large the pres-
ents were to be in advance ?

A. Certainly. That is, I made up my mind that I would send him
the half that came to me from the fort.

Mr. LOGAN. I desire to propound a question which I send up in
writing.

The PRESIDENT j)ro tempore. The question of the Senator from
Dlinois will be read.

The Chief Clerk read as follows :

Q. Prior to the sending of the first money, had you said anything
to any person or had any person ever said anything to you on the
subject of sending money to General Belknap ; if so, who was it t

Mr. CARPENTER. Mr. President, it is impossible to ascertain from
this court, it being so numerous, as we do always in conversation with
a court of law^ what is the point involved in the decisions which have
been made. I would like to ask whether the opinion of the Senate
is that we cannot object to a question put by a Senator or whether
the questions have been ruled in upon the ground that they were
proper questions f

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question of the Senator from
Illinois [Mr. Logan] will be repeated.

The Chief Clerk read the question of Mr. Looan.

The Witness. Am I to answer?

Mr. CARPENTER. Wait a moment.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Do counsel object t

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, Mr. President, on consultation we object
to the question.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore, ShaU this interrogatory be admit-
tedf

The question was decided in the affirmative.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The witness will answer the ques-
tion.

The Witness. I had a conversation with the present Blrs. Belknap
on the night of the funeral in Washington.



Bfr. Manager LAPHAM. That was after the first money was sent.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. The question calls for conversation be-
fore any money was sent.

The witness. That was before I had sent any money to him. I
had sent a remittance to her.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. Go on.

The Witness. Does the question call for conversation f

Mr. EDMUNDS. No.

Mr. LOGAN. I wiu now add, let him state what the conyersation
was.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. I oblect to that at this stage of the case.
This may excite the risibility of the honorable gentlemen on the other
side ; but I think I shall be able to give a verv good reason for it.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I should like to hear the answer of the
witness as far as given.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The reporter will read.

The answer was rcM^d, as follows :

That was before I had sent any money to him. Ihadsentaranitteneetohsr.

Mr. Manager HOAR. That answer is a little ambiguous. It had
better be made certain. He has spoken of the present Mrs. Belknap,
and says, " 1 had sent a remittance to her ; " let him state to whom.

A. I mean Mrs. Belknap, deceased.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The managers have objected to
the question, and the Chair will submit it to the Senate.

Mr. EDMUNDS. That is the question that calls for the conversa*
tionf

The PRESIDENT mro tempore. Shall this be admitted T

Mr. HOWE. Let the question as it is put be reported.

The question was read by the reporter, as follows :

Q. State what the conrersation was.

Mr. WHYTE. What conversation is referred tot We did not hear
the ground of the objection made by the manager. I {^resume that
the absence of General Belknap would be one objection if he was not
present at the conversation. We did not hear what objection was
made by the manaeer.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. Even if General Belknap was present,
while we might have called it as a^^ainst hiin^ he cannot produce it
as in his favor. It is the conversation of a third party.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Shall this interrogatory be ad-
mitted?

Mr. HOWE. I ask for the veas and nays.

The yeas and nays were oraered.

Mr. Manager McMAHON. Before the vote is taken. Senators, I
desire that fJl shall understand the precise conversation now c^ed
for. It is a conversation between the witness and the present Mrs.
Belknap; occurring on the night of the funeral of the second Mrs.
Belkiiap, between the witness and her, not in the presence of General
Belknap ; a conversation between the two persons on that occasion.
Clearly it seems to me the defendant is not at liberty to produce that
conversation in his behalf.

Mr. CONKLING. And it was after the first money had been sent
to the former Mrs. Belknap f

Mr. Manager LAPHAM. Yes, sir.

Iffr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I should like to ask whether the conver-
sation which is inquired for is not the same conversation as to which
the court inquired whether it had taken place.

Mr. CONKliING. Certainly it is.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Secretary will call the roll.

The question being taken by yeas and nays, resulted— yeas 18, nays
23; as follows:

YEAS— Messrs. Allison, Booth, Bmoe, Conkling, CraMn, Perry, Frelinghaysen,
Harvey, Howe, Ingalls, Logan, Morrill, Morton, JPaddock, Patterson, Sherman,
"West, and "Wright— 18.

NAYS— Messrs. Bogy, Caperton, Cooper , Dawes, Edmonds, Gordon, Hamilton,
Kelly, Keman, Key, McCreery, Maxey. Merrimon, M3tchell, Norwood, Bimsom,
Bo^rtson. Stevenson, Thorman, Wadleigh, "Wallace, "Whyte, and Withers— 23.

NOT "VOTIN(>— Messrs. Alcorn, Anthony, Bamnm, Bayard, Bontwell, Bomside,
Cameron of Pennsylvani&Cfuneron of "Wisconsin, Christlancy, Clayton, Cookrell,
Conover, Davis. Dennis, Dorsev, Eaton, Goldthwaite, TTftmlTn Hitchcock, John*
ston, Jones of Florida, Jones of Nevada, McDonald, McMillan, Oglesby, Bandolph,
SMgrait, Sanlsbnry, Sharon, Spencer, and "Windom— ^1.

The PRESIDENT pro temnore. The objection is sustained.

Mr. DAWES. I should like to have a question put, which I send to
the Chair.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question of the Senator from
Massachusetts will be read.

The Chief Clerk read as follows :

Q. State all the knowledge or information that General Belknap
had, which it is in your power to state, as to the amount of any money



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