Notes and Queries, Number 04, November 24, 1849 online

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of Chickens. 4. A leg of mutton with a Sallet. Garnish your
dishes with Barberries.

"_Second Course._ 1. A chine of Muton. 2. A chine of Veal. 3.
Lark-pye. 4. A couple of Pullets, one larded. Garnished with
orange slices.

"_Third Course._ 1. A dish of Woodcocks. 2. A couple of Rabbits.
3. A dish of Asparagus. 4. A Westphalia Gammon.

"_Last Course._ 1. Two orange tarts, one with herbs. 2. A Bacon
Tart. 3. An apple Tart. 4. A dish of Bon-chriteen pears. 5. A
dish of Pippins. 6. A dish of Pearmains.

"_A Banquet for the same Season._

"1. A dish of Apricots. 2. A dish of marmalade of Pippins. 3. A
dish of preserved Cherries. 4. A whole red Quince. 5. A dish of
dryed sweet-meats.

"_A Bill of Fare upon an extraordinary Occasion._

"1. A collar of brawn. 2. A couple of Pullets boyled. 3. A bisk
of Fish. 4. A dish of Carps. 5. A grand boyled Meat. 6. A grand
Sallet. 7. A venison pasty. 8. A roasted Turkey. 9. A fat pig.
10. A powdered Goose. 11. A haunch of Venison roasted. 12. A
Neats-tongue and Udder roasted. 13. A Westphalia Ham boyled. 14.
A Joll of Salmon. 15. Mince pyes. 16. A Surloyn of roast beef.
17. Cold baked Meats. 18. A dish of Custards.

"_Second Course._ 1. Jellies of all sorts. 2. A dish of
Pheasants. 3. A Pike boyled. 4. An oyster pye. 5. A dish of
Plovers. 6. A dish of larks. 7. A Joll of Sturgeon. 8. A couple
of Lobsters. 9. A lamber pye. 10. A couple of Capons. 11. A dish
of Partridges. 12. A fricacy of Fowls. 13. A dish of Wild Ducks.
14. A dish of cram'd chickens. 15. A dish of stewed oysters. 16.
A Marchpane. 17. A dish of Fruits. 18. An umble pye."

The fare suggested for "Fish days" is no less various and abundant;
twelve dishes are enumerated for the first course, and sixteen for the
second. Looking at the character of these viands, some of which would
not discredit the genius of a Soyer or a Mrs. Glasse, {55} it seems
pretty evident that in the article of food the labouring classes have
been the greatest gainers since 1687.

Few things are more suggestive of queries - as everybody knows from
experience - than the products of culinary art. I will not, however,
further trespass on space which may be devoted to a more dignified
topic, than by submitting the following.

_Query._ - Does the phrase "to eat humble pie," used to signify a forced
humiliation, owe its origin to the "umble pye" specified above?


* * * * *


Mr. Editor, - Legour asks, why the people in Suffolk call a lady-bird
"Bishop Barnaby?"

I give the following from the late Major Moor's _Suffolk Words_.

"Bishop-Barney. The golden bug. See Barnabee. In Tasser's _Ten
Unwelcome Guests in the Dairy_, he enumerates 'the Bishop that
burneth' (pp. 142. 144.), in an ambiguous way, which his
commentator does not render at all clear. I never heard of this
calumniated insect being an unwelcome guest in the dairy; but
Bishop-Barney, or Burney, and Barnabee, or Burnabee, and
Bishop-that-burneth, seem, in the absence of explanation to be
nearly related - in sound at any rate. Under _Barnabee_ it will
be seen that _burning_ has some connection with the history of
this pretty insect."

"Barnabee," writes the Major, "the golden-bug, or lady-bird;
also Bishop-Barney: which see. This pretty little, and very
useful insect, is tenderly regarded by our children. One
settling on a child is always sent away with this sad
valediction: -

"Gowden-bug, gowden-bug, fly away home,
Yar house is bahnt deown and yar children all gone."

To which I add another nursery doggerel less sad: -

"Bishop, Bishop-Barnabee,
Tell me when your wedding be,
If it be to-morrow day
Take your wings and fly away."

The Major adds, "It is sure to fly off on the third repetition."

"Burnt down," continues the Major, "gives great scope to our country
euphonic twang, altogether inexpressible in type; _bahnt deeyown_ comes
as near to it as my skill in orthography will allow."

Ray, in his _South and East Country Words_, has this: -

"Bishop, the little spotted beetle, commonly called the lady-cow
or lady-bird. I have heard this insect in other places called
golden-knop, and doubtless in other countries it hath other
names. (_E. W._ p. 70) Golden-bugs the common Suffolk name."

Southwold, Nov. 16. 1849.

* * * * *


Sir, - In the 2nd vol. of Mr. Collier's valuable and interesting
_Extracts from the Registers of the Stationers' Company_, p. 28, is the
following entry: -

"Thos. Dason. Licensed unto him the praise of follie; to print
not above xv° of any impression, with this condition, that any
of the Company may laie on with him, reasonablie at every
impression, as they think good, and that he shall gyve
reasonable knowledge before to them as often as he shall print

This is both curious and important information as being, in all
probability, the earliest recorded instance of a custom still kept up
amongst booksellers, and which now passes under the designation of a
"Trade edition;" the meaning of which being, that the copyright, instead
of being the exclusive property of one person, is divided into shares
and held by several. There are Trade editions of such voluminous authors
as Shakspeare, Gibbon, Hume, and Robertson, for instance; and Alison's
_Europe_, if published half a century back, might in all probability
have been added to the list. The difference between the ancient and the
modern usage appears to be this, that formerly when the type was set up
for an edition "any of the company may laie on, (these two last words
are still technically used by printers for supplying type with paper,)
reasonablie at every impression," &c.; in other words, may print as many
copies from the type "as they think good;" whereas now, the edition is
first printed, and then the allotment of the copies, and the actual cost
of them is made, according to the number of shares.

If this is a "Note" worth registering, it is much at your service,
whilst for a "Query," I should be very glad to be informed, when a very
able review, the date of which I neglected {56} to make at the time,
appeared in the _Times_ newspaper, of the 2nd edition of Cottle's _Life
of Coleridge_.

With many good wishes for the success of your register,

I remain, &c.


* * * * *


Sir, - I am very glad to have elicited the information contained in your
number just published respecting the copy of Borde's work in the Chetham
Library. As I have a great respect for Mr. Ames, I must remark that he
had no share in the blunder, and whenever a new edition of his work is
undertaken, it will be well to look rather curiously into the
enlargements of Dibdin. In the mean time this information naturally
leads to another Query - or rather, to more than one - namely, "_Had_ Mr.
Bindley's copy this unique imprint? and what became of it at the sale
of his books? or is it only one of the imaginary editions which give
bibliographers so much trouble?" Perhaps some one of your correspondents
may be able to give information.

Yours, &c.


* * * * *



The student who confines himself to a single question, may fairly expect
a prompt and precise answer. To ask for general information on a
particular subject, may be a less successful experiment. Who undertakes
extensive research except for an especial purpose? Who can so far
confide in his memory as to append his name to a list of authorities
without seeming to prove his own superficiality? I throw out these ideas
for consideration, just as they arise; but neither wish to repress the
curiosity of _querists_, nor to prescribe bounds to the communicative
disposition of _respondents_.

Did Madoc, son of Owen Gwynedd, prince of Wales, discover America?
Stimulated by the importance of the question, and accustomed to admire
the spirit of maritime enterprise, at whatever period it may have been
called into action, I have sometimes reflected on this debatable
point - but can neither affirm nor deny it.

I advise the _student_, as a preliminary step to the inquiry, to attempt
a collection of all the accessible evidence, historical and
ethnographic, and to place the materials which pertain to each class in
the order of time. The historical evidence exists, I believe
exclusively, in the works of the chroniclers and bards of Wales; and the
ethnographic evidence in the narratives of travellers in America. The
opinions of modern writers, the gifted author of _Madoc_ not excepted,
he is at liberty to consider as _hors-d'oeuere_ - to be passed on, or
tasted, _à plaisir_. As an exemplification of this plan, I submit some
short extracts, with critical remarks: -

"Madoc another of Owen Gwyneth his sonnes left the land
[North-Wales] in contention betwixt his brethren, and prepared
certaine ships with men and munition, and sought adventures by
seas, sailing west, and leaving the coast of Ireland so far
north, that he came to a land unknowen, where he saw manie
strange things." - CARADOC OF LLANCARVAN, _continued - The
historie of Cambria_, 1584. 4º. p. 227.

[The history of Caradoc ends with A.D. 1156. The continuation,
to the year 1270, is ascribed by Powel, the editor of the
volume, to the monks of Conway and Stratflur.]

Carmina Meredith filii Rhesi [Meredydd ab Rhys] mentionem
facientia de Madoco filio Oweni Gwynedd, et de suâ navigatione
in terras incognitas. Vixit hic Meredith circiter annum Domini

Madoc wyf, mwyedic wedd,
Iawn genau, Owen Gwynedd;
Ni fynnum dir, fy enaid oedd,
Na da mawr, ond y moroedd.

_The same in English._

Madoc I am the sonne of Owen Gwynedd
With stature large, and comely grace adorned;
No lands at home nor store of wealth me please,
My minde was whole to searche the ocean seas.

"These verses I received of my learned friend M. William
Camden." _Richard Hakluyt_, 1589.

[The eulogy of Meredydd ab Rhys is very indefinite, but deserves
notice on account of its early date. He "flourished," says W.
Owen, "between A.D. 1430 and 1460."]

"This land must needs be some part of that countrie of which the
Spaniardes affirme themselves to be the first finders sith
Hannos time; ... Whereupon it is manifest, that that countrie
was long before by Brytaines discouered, afore either Columbus
or Americus Vespatius lead anie Spaniardes thither. Of the viage
and returne of this Madoc there be _manie fables fained_, as the
common people doo use in distance of place {57} and length of
time rather to augment than to diminish: but sure it is, that
there he was." - HUMFREY LHOYD, _Additions to the Historie of
Cambria_, p. 228.

[Lhoyd, who translated the history of Caradoc, and made
considerable additions to it, died in 1568. He mentions the
second voyage of Madoc, but cites no authority.]

"This Madoc arriving in that westerne countrie, unto the which
he came, in the year 1170, left most of his people there: and
returning backe for more of his owne nation, acquaintance and
freends, to inhabite that faire and large countrie: went thither
againe with ten sailes, as I find noted by Gutyn Owen. I am of
opinion that the land, wherevnto he came, was some part of
Mexico:" etc. - David Powel, S.T.P., note in _The historie of
Cambria_, 1584. 4°. p. 229.

[The learned Powel relies on the authority of the poet Gutyn
Owen. "He wrote," says W. Owen, "between A.D. 1460 and
1490" - three centuries after the event in question!]

_Ethnographic evidence._

"They came [anno 1536] to part of the West Indies about Cape
Breton, shaping their course thence north-eastwards, vntill they
camme to the Island of Penguin," etc. - The voyage of master
Hore, in _The principall navigations_, etc. 1589. Fol.

[Antiquaries consider the mention of _Cape Breton_ and _Penguin
Island_ as evidence. It cannot prove much, as the particulars
were not committed to writing till about half-a-century after
the voyage.]

"There is also another kinde of foule in that countrey [between
the Gulf of Mexico and Cape Breton] ... they have white heads,
and therefore the country men call them _penguins_ (which
seemeth to be a Welsh nanme). And _they have also in use divers
other Welsh words, a matter worthy the noting_." - The relation
of David Ingram, 1568. in _The principall navigations_, etc.
1589. Fol.

[This narrative was compiled from answers to certain
_queries_ - perhaps twenty years after the events related.]

"Afterwards [anno 1669] they [The Doeg Indians] carried us to
their town, and entertained us civilly for four months; and I
did converse with them of many things in the British tongue, and
_did preach to them three times a week in the British tongue_,"
etc. Rev. Morgan Jones, 1686. - _British Remains_, 1777. 8°.

[The editor omits to state how he procured the manuscript. The
paper whence the above is extracted is either decisive of the
question at issue, or a forgery.]

The _student_ may infer, even from these imperfect hints, that I
consider the subject which he proposes to himself as one which deserves
a strict investigation - provided the collections hereafter described
have ceased to be in existence.

"With respect to this extraordinary occurence in the history of
Wales, I have collected a multitude of evidences, in conjunction
with Edward Williams, the bard, to prove that Madog must have
reached the American continent; for the descendants of him and
his followers exist there as a nation to this day; and the
present position of which is on the southern branches of the
Missouri river, under the appellations of Padoucas, White
Indians, Civilized Indians, and Welsh Indians." - _William Owen_,
F.A.S. 1803.

The title prefixed to this paper would be a misnomer, if I did not add a
list of books which it may be desirable to consult: -

_On the Scandinavian discoveries._ - Mémoires de la société
royale des antiquaires du Nord. 1836-1839. _Copenhague._ 8°. p.
27. - Historia Vinlandiæ Antiquæ, seu partis Americæ
septentrionalis - per Thormodum Terfæum. _Haviniæ_, 1705. 8°.
1715. 8° - Antiquitates Americanæ, sive scriptores
septentrionales rerum Ante-Columbianarum in America. _Hafniæ_,
1837. 4°.

_On the Welsh discoveries._ - The historie of Cambria, now called
Wales - continued by David Powel. _London_, 1584. 4°. The
Myvyrian archaiology of Wales, _London_, 1801-7. 8°. 3 vol.
British remains, by the Rev. N. Owen, A.M. _London_, 1777. 8°.
The Cambrian biography, by William Owen, F.A.S. _London_, 1803.
8°. Biblithèque Américaine, par H. Ternaux. _Paris_, 1837. 8°.
The principall navigations, voiages and discoveries of the
English nation - by Richard Hakluyt, M.A. _London_, 1589. fol.


* * * * *


Dr. Plott, in his account, and Lord Monboddo, _Origin and Progress of
Language_, refer to the _Travels of Herbert_ (17th century), lib. iii.
cap. ult., for a full history of this supposed discovery. They derived
it from Meredyth ap Rhys, Gatty Owen, and Cynfyn ap Gronow, A.D.
1478-80. See also _Atheneaum_, Aug. 19. 1848. - Professor Elton's address
at the meeting of the British Association, on this and the earlier
Icelandic discovery.

The belief in the story has been lately renewed. See _Archæologia
Cambrens_, 4. 65., and _L'Acadie_, by Sir J.E. Alexander, 1849. I will
only observe that in Dr. Plott's account, Madoc was directed by the
_best compass_, and this in 1170! See M'Culloch's _Dictionary of


* * * * * {58}


A traveller informs us that Baron A. von Humboldt urges further search
after this expedition in the Welsh records. He thinks the passage is in
the _Examin Critique_.

* * * * *



I quite agree with your correspondent D.N.R., that there never has been
an editor of Shakespeare capable of doing him full justice. I will go
farther and say, that there never will be an editor capable of doing him
any thing like justice. I am the most "modern editor" of Shakespeare,
and I am the last to pretend that I am at all capable of doing him
justice: I should be ashamed of myself if I entertained a notion so
ridiculously presumptuous. What I intended was to do him all the justice
in my power, and that I accomplished, however imperfectly. It struck me
that the best mode of attempting to do him any justice was to take the
utmost pains to restore his text to the state in which he left it; and
give me leave, very humbly, to say that this is the chief recommendation
of the edition I superintended through the press, having collated every
line, syllable, and letter, with every known old copy. For this purpose
I saw, consulted and compared every quarto and every folio impression in
the British Museum, at Oxford, at Cambridge, in the libraries of the
Duke of Devonshire and Lord Ellesmere, and in several private
collections. If my edition have no other merit, I venture to assert that
it has this. It was a work of great labour, but it was a work also of
sincere love. It is my boast, and my only boast, that I have restored
the text of Shakespeare, as nearly as possible, to the integrity of the
old copies.

When your correspondent complains, therefore, that in "Hen. IV. Part 2,"
Act III. sc. 1., in the line,

"With deafening clamours in the slippery clouds,"

the word _shrouds_ is not substituted by editors of Shakespeare for
"clouds," the answer is, that not a single old copy warrants the merely
fanciful emendation, and that it is not at all required by the sense of
the passage. In the 4to of 1600, and in the folio of 1623, the word is
"clouds;" and he must be a very bold editor (in my opinion little
capable of doing justice to any author), who would substitute his own
imaginary improvement, for what we have every reason to believe is the
genuine text. _Shrouds_ instead of "clouds" is a merely imaginary
improvement, supported by no authority, and (as, indeed, your
correspondent shows) without the merit of originality. I am for the text
of Shakespeare as he left it, and as we find it in the most authentic
representations of his mind and meaning.


* * * * *


Sir, - Possibly some one of your literary correspondents, who may be
versed in the, what D'Israeli would call _Secret_ History of the
Jacobite Court, will endeavour to answer a "Query" relative to the
following rare medal: -

_Obv._ A ship of war bearing the French flag; on the shore a
figure in the dress of a Jesuit (supposed to represent Father
Petre) seated astride of a _Lobster_, holding in his arms the
young Prince of Wales, who has a little windmill on his head.
Legend: "Allons mon Prince, nous sommes en bon chemin." In the
exergue, "Jacc: Franç: Eduard, supposé. 20 Juin, 1688."

_Rev._ A shield charged with a windmill, and surmounted by a
Jesuit's bonnet; two rows of Beads or Rosaries, for an order or
collar, within which we read "Honny soit qui _non_ y pense;" a
_Lobster_ is suspended from the collar as a badge. Legend: "Les
Armes et l'Ordre du pretendu Prince de Galles."

The difficulty in the above medal is _the Lobster_, though doubtless it
had an allusion to some topic or scandal of the day; whoever can
elucidate it will render good service to Medallic History, for hitherto
it has baffled all commentators and collectors of medals. The windmill
(indicative of the poplar fable that the Prince was the son of a
miller), and the Roman Catholic symbols, are well understood.

There is an engraving of this medal in Van Loon's _Histoire Metallique
des Pays Bas_. It is also imperfectly engraved in Edwards' _Medallic
History of England_, for the Jesuit is represented kneeling on the
shore, and Pinkerton, who furnished the text, calls it "a boy kneeling
on the shore." The medal is so rare that probably the artist could
obtain only a rubbed or mutilated impression to engrave from. My
description is from a {59} specimen, in my own collection, as fine as
the day it was minted.

I may add that both Van Loon and Pinkerton have engraved the legend in
the collar erroneously, "honi soit qui _bon_ y pense;" it should be


* * * * *


In the _Spectator's_ description of Sir Roger de Coverley it is said,
"that his great-grandfather was the inventor of that famous country
dance which is called after him." To the tune, as printed in Chappell's
_English Melodies_, is appended a note to the effect that it was called
after "Roger of Coverley" (Cowley, near Oxford).

Can any one inform me -

I. Where any notice of that Roger is to be found?

II. What is the etymon of "Cowley" (Temple Cowley and Church Cowley)?

III. If any notice of the tune is to be met with earlier than 1695, when
it was printed by H. Playford in his _Dancing Master_?


* * * * *


Who was the author of the two following works? - "Remarks upon the
History of the Landed and Commercial Policy of England, from the
Invasion of the Romans to the Accession of James I. 2 vols. London:
printed for E. Brooke, in Bell Yard, Temple Bar, MDCCLXXXV."

"The History of the Life, Reign, and Death of Edward II, King of England
and Lord of Ireland, with the Rise and Fall of his great Favourites,
Gaveston and the Spencers. Written by E.F. in the year 1627, and printed
verbatim from the original. London: Printed by J.C. for Charles Harper,
at the Flower-de-Luce in Fleet St.; Samuel Crouch, at the Princes' Arms,
in Pope's head Alley in Cornhill; and Thomas Fox, at the Angel in
Westminster Hall, 1680. (a portrait of Ed. II.)" In the 1st vol. Harl.
Miscell. it is said that the above was found with the papers of the
first Lord Falkland, and is attributed to him. My copy has Faulconbridge
inserted in MS. over the F., and a book plate of Earl Verney, motto
"_Prodesse quam conspici_," with an escutcheon of pretence.


* * * * *


Mr. Editor, - Amongst the later authorities on subjects of British-Roman
antiquity, the Rev. Thomas Leman is constantly referred to, and in terms
of great commendation.

Can you inform me whether that gentleman published any work or made an
avowed communication of any of his researches? His name is not found in
the Index to the _Archæologia_.

Mr. Leman contributed largely to Mr. Hatcher's edition of _Richard of
Cirencester_; but it is one of the unsatisfactory circumstances of this
work that these contributions, and whatever may have been derived from
the late Bishop of Cloyne, are merely acknowledged in general terms, and
are not distinguished as they occur.

I believe the MS. of the work was all in Mr. Hatcher's handwriting; some
of your readers may possibly have the means of knowing in what way he
used the materials thus given, or to what extent they were adapted or
annotated by himself.

Coleman Street, Nov. 13.

* * * * *


Sir, - Will any of your readers favour me with an account of the origin,
as well as the date of introduction, of the term "_Gothic_," as applied
to the Pointed Styles of Ecclesiastical Architecture?

This Query is, of course, intimately connected with the much-disputed
question of the origin of the Pointed Style itself. But yet I imagine
that the _application_ of the term "_Gothic_" may be found to be quite
distinct, in its origin, from the first rise of the Pointed Arch. The
invention of the Pointed Arch cannot, surely, be attributed to the

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