Notes and Queries, Number 59, December 14, 1850 online

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other fooleries which are to no use or purpose, try infer thence, that
all the contrivances that are in nature, even the frame of the bodies,
both of men and beasts, are from no other principle but the jumbling
together of the matter, and so because that this doth naturally effect
something, that is the cause of all things, seems to me to be reasoning
in the same mood and figure with that wise market man's, who, going
down a hill and carrying his cheeses under his arms, one of them
falling and trundling down the hill very fast, let the other go after
it appointing them all to meet him at his house at _Gotham_, not
doubting but they beginning so hopefully, would be able to make good
the whole journey; or like another of the same town, who perceiving
that his iron trevet he had bought had three feet, and could stand,
expected also that it should walk too, and save him the labour of the

6. Col. T. Perronet Thompson's Works, vol. ii. p. 236., _Anti-Corn-Law
Tracts_: -

"If fooleries of this kind go on, _Gotham_ will be put in Schedule A.,
and the representation of Unreason transferred into the West Riding."

J.R.M., M.A.

K.C.L. Nov. 26. 1850.

* * * * *


Can you find an early place in your pages for the following Queries
relative to the history of Herstmonceux Castle and its lords, on which a
memoir is in preparation for the next volume of the collections of the
Sussex Archæological Society.

1. Who was Pharamuse of Boulogne, father of Sybil de Tingry? He is called
the _nephew_ of Maud, King Stephen's wife; but I believe there is no doubt
that she was the only child and sole heir of Eustace Earl of Boulogne,
brother of Godfrey, King of Jerusalem. Where is _Tingry_, of which place he
was lord? Is there any place in the North of France bearing that name now?

2. Will any one well skilled in the interpretation of ancient legal
documents furnish some explanation of the following extracts from the
_Rotul. de Fin._ (Hardy, i. 19.): -

"1199. William de Warburton and Ingelram de Monceux give 500 marks to
the king for having the inheritance of Juliana, wife of William, son of
Aymer, whose next of kin they say they are."

Yet six years later, 1205 (Hardy, i. 310 ) -

"Waleran de Monceux gives 100 marks for having the reasonable
(rationabilis) part of the inheritance of Juliana, as regards (versus)
Wm. de Warburton, William and Waleran being her next of kin."

This Waleran was son of Idonea _de Herst_ (now Herst Monceux), and appears
in other documents as "Waleran _de Herst_." The land in question was in
_Compton_ (afterwards Compton _Monceux_), Hants.

Now how are we to reconcile the two above-quoted documents? What was the
connexion {478} between Ingelram and Waleran? And how is Waleran's double
appellation to be explained? I see a reference to a family named _de
Mounceaux_ in the last number of the _Archæological Journal_, p. 300.,
holding a manor near Hawbridge, Somerset Were they of the same stock?

3. The magnificent monument in Herstmonceux church to Thomas Lord Dacre
(who died 1534), and his eldest son, is embellished with a considerable
number of coats of arms, several of which I am unable to identity with any
connexions of the family. These are, - (1.) Sable, a cross or; (2.) Barry of
six, ar. and az., a bend gules; (3.) Arg. a fesse gules; (4.) Quarterly or,
and gules, an escarbuncle sable; (5.) Barry of six, arg. and gules; (6.)
Azure, an orle of martlets or, on an inescutcheon arg. three bass gules.

Can any of your readers, acquainted with the Dacre and Fienes pedigrees,
appropriate any of these coats?

4. A suite of small bed-rooms, and the gallery from which they opened, in
Herstmonceux Castle, were called respectively the _Bethlem Chambers_ and
_Bethlem Gallery_: is any instance of a similar denomination of apartments
known, and can the reason be assigned?

5. Sir Roger Fienes, the builder of Herstmonceux Castle, accompanied Henry
V. to Agincourt. Are any references to him to be found in Sir H. Nicolas'
_Battle of Azincourt_, or elsewhere?

6. Francis Lord Dacre was one of the noble twelve who had the courage to
appear in their places in the House of Lords and reject the ordinance for
the trial of Charles I. His son Thomas, who married the daughter of Charles
II. by the Duchess of Cleveland, and was created Earl of Sussex, was
compelled through his extravagance to alienate the castle and manor of
Herstmonceux. Are there any references to either of these peers, who played
a not inconspicuous part in the events of their times, in any of the
contemporary memoirs? Any information on any of the above points would
greatly oblige


Herstmonceux, Nov. 18.

* * * * *


_Yorkshire Ballads._ - Any of your readers would confer a great favour by
referring me to any early Yorkshire ballads, or ballads relating to places
in Yorkshire, not reprinted in the ordinary collections, such as Percy,
Evans, &c. I am of course acquainted with those in the Roxburghe


_Ringing a Handbell before a Corpse._ - Is it true that whenever an
interment takes place in Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford, the corpse is
preceded on its way to the grave by a person who rings a small handbell at
intervals, each time giving a few tinkling strokes? My informant on this
subject was an Oxford undergraduate, who said that he had recently
witnessed the burials both of Mr. - - , a late student of Christ Church,
and of Miss - - , daughter of a living bishop: and he assured me that in
both cases this ceremony was observed. Certainly it is possible to go
through the academical course at Oxford without either hearing the bell, or
knowing of its use on such occasions: but I should now be glad to receive
some explanation of this singular custom.



_Church of St. Saviour, Canterbury._ - Tradition, I believe, has uniformly
represented that an edifice more ancient, but upon the present site of St.
Martin's, Canterbury, was used by St. Augustine and his followers in the
earliest age of Christianity in this country. St. Martin's has, on that
account, been often spoken of as the mother-church of England. Lately,
however, in perusing the fourth volume of Mr. Kemble's _Codex
Diplomaticus_, p. 1. I find a charter of King Canute, of the year 1018,
which states the church of ST. SAVIOUR, _Canterbury_, to be the
mother-church of England:

"Æcclesia Salvatoris in Dorobernia sita, omnium Æcclesiarum regni
Angligeni _mater et domina_."

In none of the histories of Kent or of Canterbury can I find any mention of
a church dedicated to St. Saviour. May I beg the favour of you to insert
this among your Notes?


_Mock Beggar's Hall._ - What is the origin of this name as applied to some
old mansions? One at Wallasey, in Cheshire, was so named, and another near
Ipswich, in Suffolk. And what is the earliest instance of the title?


_Beatrix Lady Talbot._ - Since the publication of Sir Harris Nicolas' able
contribution to the _Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica_ (vol. i. pp.
80-90.) no one may be excused for confounding, as Dugdale and his followers
had done, Beatrix Lady Talbot with Donna Beatrix, daughter of John, King of
Portugal, to whom Thomas FitzAlan, Earl of Arundel, was married, 26th Nov.,
1405. What I now wish to learn is, whether anything has since been
discovered to elucidate further the pedigree of Lady Talbot? It is evident
that she was of Portuguese origin; and it may be inferred from the
quarterings on her seal, as shown in a manuscript in the British Museum
(1st and 4th arg., five escutcheons in cross az., each charged with five
plates in saltire, for _Portugal_; and 2nd and 3rd az., five crescents in
saltire, or), that she was a member of the Portuguese family of Pinto,
which is the only house in Portugal that bears the five crescents in
saltire, as displayed on the seal.



_English Prize Essays._ - Is there at present, in either of the
universities, or elsewhere, any prize, medal, or premium given for English
essays, for which all England could compete, irrespective of birth, place
of education, &c.; and, if so, particulars as to where such could be
obtained, would greatly oblige


_Rev. Joseph Blanco White._ - _History of the Inquisition._ - In the Rev.
J.H. Thom's _Life of the Rev. Joseph Blanco White_ it is stated that he had
made a collection for a history of the Inquisition which he intended to
publish; and in a batch of advertisements preceding the first volume of
Smedley's _Reformed Religion in France_, published in 1832 by Rivingtons,
as part of their Theological Library. I find an announcement of other works
to be included in the series, and amongst others, already in preparation,
_The Origin and Growth of the Roman Catholic Inquisition against Heresy and
Apostacy_; by Joseph Blanco White, M.A. I need not ask whether the work was
_published_, for it is not to be found in the London Catalogue; but I wish
to ask whether any portion of the work was ever placed in the publisher's
hands, or ever printed; or whether he made any considerable progress in the
collection, and, if so, in whose hands the MSS. are? Such papers, if they
exist, would probably prove of too much importance to allow of their
remaining unpublished.


_Lady Deloraine._ - The _Delia_ of Pope's line,

"Slander or poison dread from _Delia's_ rage,"

is supposed to have been Lady Deloraine, who remarried W. Windam, Esq., of
Carsham, and died in Oct., 1744. The person said to have been poisoned was
a Miss Mackenzie. Are the grounds of this strange suspicion known?


_Speke Family._ - I shall be glad to ascertain the family name and the
armorial bearings of Alice, wife of Sir John Speke, father of Sir John
Speke, founder of the chapel of St. George in Exeter Cathedral. She is said
to have been maid of honour to Queen Catherine.


_Pope's Villa._ - In Pope's _Literary Correspondence_, published by Curll,
an engraving, is advertised of his (Pope's) Villa at Twickenham, engraved
by Rysbrach and published by Curll. Are any of your correspondents aware of
the existence of a copy, and the price at which it can be obtained?


_Armorial Bearings._ - Among the numerous coats-armorial in the great east
window of the choir of Exeter Cathedral, there is one respecting which I am
at a loss. Argent a cross between four crescents gules. Can either of your
readers kindly afford the name?


_Passage from Tennyson._ - You have so many correspondents well versed in
lore and legend, that I am induced to beg through you for an explanation of
the allusion contained in the following passage of Tennyson: -

"Morn broaden'd on the borders of the dark,
Ere I saw her, who clasp'd in her last trance
Her murder'd father's head."

It occurs in the _Dream of Fair Women_, st. 67.



_Sauenap, Meaning of._ - In the will of Jane Heryng, of Bury, 1419, occurs
this bequest: -

"To Alyson my dowter, xl s. and ij pottys of bras neste the beste, and
a peyr bedys of blak _get_, and a grene hod, and a red hod, and a gowne
of violet, and another of tanne, and a towayll of diaper werk, and a
_sauenap_; also a cloke and rownd table."

What was the _sauenap_?


_Hoods worn by Doctors of the University of Cambridge._ - Pray permit me to
inquire, through your agency, what is the proper lining of the scarlet
cloth hoods worn by doctors in the three faculties of the university of
Cambridge? The robe-makers of Cambridge have determined upon a pink or
rose-coloured silk for all; the London artists adopt a shot silk (light
blue and crimson) sometimes for all faculties, at others for Doctors in
Divinity only. On ancient monuments (there is one in Canterbury Cathedral)
I find that the hoods were lined with ermine; and this is the material of
those attached to the full-dress robes of doctors on the occasion of their
creation, and in the schools, and at congregations. I cannot find the
statutes bearing upon the subject.

As the Oxford statutes have recently been published, the matter is not so
much in the dark, - black silk being the material prescribed for the lining
of hoods of Doctors in Divinity, and those of the doctors in the other
faculties being prescribed to be of _silk of any intermediate colour_,
which the Oxford doctors understand to mean a deep rose-colour.


U. University Club, Dec. 4. 1850.

_Euclid and Aristotle._ - The ordinary chronologies place Aristotle as
nearly a century anterior to Euclid; but Professor De Morgan ("Eucleides,"
in Dr. Smith's _Biographical Dictionary_) considers them as contemporary.
Any of your readers conversant with the subject will oblige me by saying
_which_ is right, and likewise _why_ so.


_Ventriloquism. Fanningus the King's Whisperer._ - To the Query respecting
Brandon the juggler (Vol. ii., p. 424.), I beg leave to add another
somewhat similar. Where is any information to be obtained of "The King's
Whisperer, [Greek: engastrimythos], nomine Fanningus, who resided at Oxford
in 1643?"



_Frances Lady Norton._ - Can any of your readers give me an account of the
life of Frances Lady Norton, who wrote a work, entitled _The Applause of
Virtue, in Four Parts, consisting of Divine and Moral Essays towards the
obtaining of True Virtue_, 4to. 1705? It is a very delightful book, full of
patristic learning. I am aware she was the daughter of Ralph Freke, Esq.,
of Hannington, and married Sir George Norton, Knt. of Abbot's Leigh, in the
county of Somerset. I wish to know what other books she wrote, if any, and
where her life may be found? Perhaps the Freke family could furnish an
account of this learned lady. The work I believe to be extremely scarce.


_Westminster Wedding._ - Jeremy Collier says, in one of his _Essays_ (Part
iii. Essay viii.):

"As for the business of friendship you mentioned, 'tis not to be had at
a _Westminster Wedding_."

Being much interested in weddings in Westminster at the present day, I
should be much obliged to any of your readers who can throw any light on
the observation of the Essayist, as above cited. What other authors use the


_Stone's Diary._ - Stone, the celebrated sculptor, left a valuable diary.
The MS. was in the possession of Vertue the engraver. Has it ever been


_Dr. King's Poem of The Toast._ - Where can I find a key to Dr. King's
_Heroic Poem_, called _The Toast?_ Isaac Reed's copy, with a _manuscript
key_, sold at his sale for 10l. 10s.


_Anima Magis, &c._ - To whom is this sentence to be ascribed -

"Anima magis est ubi amat
Quam ubi animat."


_The Adventures of Peter Wilkins._ - Is the author of this delightful work
of fiction known? The first edition was published in 1751, but it does not
contain the dedication to Elizabeth, Countess of Northumberland, found in
later impressions. When was this dedication added? It is observable that in
all the editions I have seen, the initials R.P. are signed to the
dedication, while R.S. appears on the title-page.


_Talmud, Translations of._ - 1. Have there been any English translations of
the Talmud, or any complete section of it? 2. What are the most esteemed
Continental and Latin translations?


_Torn by Horses._ - What is the last instance in the history of France of a
culprit being torn by horses? Jean Châtel, who attempted to assassinate
Henri Quatre, suffered thus in 1595. (Crowe's _France_, i. 364.)


_The Marks_ *, [obelus], [diesis], _&c._ - What is the origin of the
asterisk, obelus, &c., used for references to notes? When were they first
used? What are their proper names?


Totteridge, Herts, Oct. 23.

_Blackguard._ - Walking once through South Wales, we found an old woman by
the roadside selling a drink she called _blackguard_. It was composed of
beer and gin, spiced with pepper, and well deserved its name. Is this a
common beverage in the principality?


* * * * *



I am much obliged to your correspondent LAICUS for his inquiry respecting
the proposed Society (Vol. ii., p. 464). Will you allow me to express to
him my confident hope, that the proposed plan, or some modification of it
by a committee (when one shall exist) may in due time be carried out. But
there seems to be no reason for haste; and in the formation of such body it
is desirable to have as many avowed supporters to select from as possible.
I do not think that the matter is much known yet, though I have to thank
you for a kind notice; and I need not tell some of your correspondents that
I have received very encouraging letters. But, in truth, as I did not
expect any profit, or desire any responsibility as to either money or
management, and only wished to lay before the public an idea which had
existed in my own mind for some years, and which had obtained the sanction
of some whom I thought competent judges; and as I had, moreover, published
pamphlets enough to know that a contribution of waste paper to any object
is often one of the most costly, I did not feel myself called on to go to
so much expense in advertising as I perhaps might have done if I had been
spending the money of a society instead of my own. I sent but few copies;
none, I believe, except to persons with whom I had some acquaintance, and
whom I thought likely to take more or less interest in the subject.

I trust, however, that the matter is quietly and solidly growing; and from
communications which I have received, and resources on which I believe I
may reckon, I feel no doubt that if it were considered desirable, friends
and money enough to set such a society going might be immediately brought
forward. It is one advantage of the proposed plan, that it may be tried on
almost any scale. A society so constituted would NOT begin its existence
{481} with great promises of returns to subscribers, and heavy engagements
to printers, papermakers, and editors. Its only _necessary_ expenses would
be those of _management_; and if the society were very small, these
expenses would be so too. It is, indeed, hardly possible to imagine that
they should be such as not to leave something to be funded for future use,
if they did not furnish means for immediate display; but it seems better to
wait patiently until such real substantial support is guaranteed as may
prevent all apprehension on that score.


* * * * *


(Vol. ii., p. 442.)

It is quite startling to be told that the title of "Defender of the Faith"
was used by any royal predecessor of Henry VIII.

Selden (_Titles of Honour_, ed 1631, p. 54) says:

"The beginning and ground of that attribute of DEFENDER OF THE FAITH,
which hath been perpetually, in the later ages, added to the style of
the kings of England, (not only in the first person, but frequent also
in the second and in the third, as common use shows in the formality of
instruments of conveyance, leases and such like) is most certainly
known. It began in Henry the VIII. For he, in those awaking times, upon
the quarrel of the Romanists and Lutherans, wrote a volume against
Luther," &c.

Selden then states the well-known occasion upon which this title was
conferred, and sets out the Bull of Leo X. (then extant in the Collection
of Sir Robert Cotton, and now in the British Museum), whereby the Pope,
"holding it just to distinguish those who have undertaken such pious
labours for defending the faith of Christ with every honour and
commendation," decrees that to the title of King the subjects of the royal
controversialist shall add the title "Fidei Defensori." The pontiff adds,
that a more worthy title could not be found.

Your correspondent, COLONEL ANSTRUTHER, calls attention to the statement
made by Mr. Christopher Wren, Secretary of the Order of the Garter (A.D.
1736), in his letter to Francis Peck, on the authority of the Register of
the Order in his possession; which letter is quoted by Burke (_Dorm. and
Ext. Bar._, iv. 408.), that "King Henry VII. had the title Defender of the
Faith." It is not found in any acts or instruments of his reign that I am
acquainted with, nor in the proclamation on his interment, nor in any of
the epitaphs engraved on his magnificent tomb. (Sandford, _Geneal. Hist._)
Nor is it probable that Pope Leo X., in those days of diplomatic
intercourse with England, would have bestowed on Henry VIII., as a special
and personal distinction and reward, a title that had been used by his
royal predecessors.

I am not aware that any such title is attributed to the sovereign in any of
the English records anterior to 1521; but that many English kings gloried
in professing their zeal to defend the Church and religion, appears from
many examples. Henry IV., in the second year of his reign, promises to
maintain and defend the Christian religion (_Rot. Parl._, iii. 466.); and
on his renewed promise, in the fourth year of his reign, to defend the
Christian faith, the Commons piously grant a subsidy (_Ibid._, 493.); and
Henry VI., in the twentieth year of his reign, acts as keeper of the
Christian faith. (_Rot. Parl._, v. 61.)

In the admonition used in the investiture of a knight with the insignia of
the Garter, he is told to take the crimson robe, and being therewith
defended, to be bold to fight and shed his blood for Christ's faith, the
liberties of the Church, and the defence of the oppressed. In this sense,
the sovereign and every knight became a sworn defender of the faith. Can
this duty have come to be popularly attributed as part of the royal style
and title?

The Bull of Leo X., which confers the title on Henry VIII. personally, does
not make it inheritable by his successors, so that none but that king
himself could claim the honour. The Bull granted two years afterwards by
Clement VII. merely confirms the grant of Pope Leo to the king himself. It
was given, as we know, for his assertion of doctrines of the Church of
Rome; yet he retained it after his separation from the Roman Catholic
communion, and after it had been formally revoked and withdrawn by Pope
Paul III. in the twenty-seventh year of Henry VIII., upon the king's
apostacy in turning suppressor of religious houses. In 1543, the
Reformation legislature and the Anti-papal king, without condescending to
notice any Papal Bulls, assumed to treat the title that the Pope had given
and taken away as a subject of Parliamentary gift, and annexed it for ever
to the English crown by the statute 35 Hen. VIII. c. 3., from which I make
the following extract, as its language bears upon the question:

"Where our most dread, &c., lord the king, hath heretofore been, and is
justly, lawfully, and notoriously knowen, named, published, and
declared to be King of England, France, and Ireland, Defender of the
Faith, and the Church of England and also of Ireland, in earth supreme
head; and hath justly and lawfully used the title and name thereof as
to his Grace appertaineth. Be it enacted, &c., that all and singular
his Graces' subject, &c., shall from henceforth accept and take the
same his Majesty's style ... viz., in the English tongue by these
words, Henry the Eighth, by the grace of God King of England, France,
and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, and of the Church of England, and
also of Ireland, in earth the supreme head; and that the said style,
&c., shall be, &c., united {482} and annexed for ever to the imperial
crown of his highness's realms of England."

By the supposed authority of this statute, and notwithstanding the
revocation of the title by Pope Paul III., and its omission in the Bull
addressed by Pope Julius III. to Philip and Mary, that princess, before and
after her marriage, used this style, and the statute having, been
re-established by 1 Eliz. c. 1., the example has been followed by her royal
Protestant successors, who wished thereby to declare themselves Defenders
of the Anti-papal Church. The learned Bishop Gibson, in his _Codex_ (i. 33,
note), treats this title as having commenced in Henry VIII. So do Blount,
Cowel, and such like authorities.

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