William Fitzhardinge Berkeley Fitzhardinge.

A narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from online

. (page 11 of 22)
Online LibraryWilliam Fitzhardinge Berkeley FitzhardingeA narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from → online text (page 11 of 22)
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on a prior day. There was, besides, one other wimtss
whose name their Lordships perhaps would dispense with
the necessity of his mentioning now, ^hose tcstnnony, as
be was informed, was exceedingly material indeed, but who
in fact, was not yet arrived. lUit if his evidence should be
such as it was stated to him to he, he certainly was a witness
of very great importance ; and except the witnesses he had
now mentioned he was not av^are of any other evidence he
had to offer in su})port of the case of the parties whom he
represented.

Mr. Serjeant Best and Sir Samuel Romilly submitted to
the Committee that they ought not to be called upon to
proceed in their evidence in reply, till the Solicitor Ge-
neral had closed his cuse, and were heard to state their
reasons.

The Counsel were again called in, and informed by the
Lord Walsingliam, that it was the ophiion of the Committee
that the SoHcitor General have leave to reserve the exami-
nation of the witnesses he had mentioned for the present;
and that the Couusel for the claimant should now proceed
with their evidence in reply.

DANIEL jVIARKI.OVE being called in, was asked by
Sir Samuel itomilly — Had yon seen Lord Berkeley, before
the year 1790, in company with Lady Berkeley r — Oh, yes,
many times.

Have you heard any thing said by Lord Berkeley in allu-
fion to any marriage ■ — For many years I have had the ho-
nour of playing at cards with the late Lord Berkeley and the
present Countess, during the winter season, and in the course
of conversation my Lord observed, talking of something that
happened prior to that time, '^ that uas before you and I
W'ere married, Mary," and calling her his wife. Lady
Berkeley has made also the same observation, ^' before you
and I were married. Peer;" this happened at different
periods.



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( 129 )

Did those observations strike you at the time they were
made? — ^They struck me very forcibly; I went home and
made an observation to my mother.

Why did they strike you ? — She being called at that time
Miss Tudor, and it not being kno\^ii she Mas married to my
Lord.

Have you mentioned it to other persons besides your mo-
ther ? — I dare say I have, I am not quite sure that I have
mentioned it to other people, but it is probable I might have
done.

Do you remember the present claimant, the eldest son of
Iy)rd Berkeley, being ill at any time? — V^er}' well.

How old raiiiht he be at that time r — I suppose two or three
years old ; he had a scarlet fe\cvj and verj' bad sore throat.
I»rd Berkeley was under great apprehension he would not
recover ; he and 1 were sitting alone in the breakfast room.
He said, *^ Marklove, I am afraid Fitz or the boy will die ;
if he does, I shall immediately quit the castle."

Did yoii know Mr. Hupsman ? — Very well.

In what situation was Mr. Hupsman in Lord Berkeley's
fjamily r — He was his chaplain ; domestic chaplain ; he used
to dine very often at my Lord s table, and I have dined there
with him.

Do you remember at what time he was hjs domestic chap*
lain r — I cannot speak to it, but during many years he was.

Was he for some years prior to 1796^ — Oh, yes, many
years.

Did you use to attend the church at Berkeley ? — Latterly
I have been very punctual and regular, but when I was about
twenty years younger, I was not so constant.

Did you ever hear Mr. Hupsman perform the service
there ?— Many times.

Do you remember the manner in which banns used to be
pubhshed there? — Mr. Hupsman at times would read xerj
deliberate indeed, and with a very audible voice ; at ^^^^^^
time he would hurry it over; in short, 1 have lefttVxe S ^^^
without knowing whose banns were pubVislied •, and ^
stsked other persons, and they could not tell ixie. %2>^^

Were the congregation ^ways very attentive w\\etv
were published ? — I cannot speak to tliat. ^^^,S^t%\

The banns are published after tlie second lesson r ^^^^^ \

and then with the hurry and bustle of people gettitig^^^^ y^^^

think if- vprv nafiirnl fo oii«^»%.rw.A »«^«^«ii nprsOIlS COuld 1^



( 139 )

As soon as the second lesson is over when no banns iverd
published, the congregation rose ? — Yes.

Did it often happen that there were no banns published at
Berkeley ?— Very often.

Do you recollect any particular expressions used by Lord
Berkeley at the time of his child being so ill ? — Yes ; he said
he should immediately quit the castle if the child did other-
wise than well ; that he could not bear the castle.

Do you recollect any other expressions ? — No^ I do not ;
we were alone in the breakfast room.

Dp you recollect other persons who were in company
with you when you were at cards, and the expressions were
used which you have stated? — No, I do not. 1 used to be
there two or three nights in the week playing at cards.
Nobody used to be there more than myself. We used to
have many joining in a rubber.

Do you remember whether these declarations were made
in the presence of several persons ? — I cannot state ; it is so
many years ago.

Are you perfectly certain as to the expressions ? — Cou-t
fideat.

Cross-examined by Mr. Solicitor General.

When were you first asked any questions upon this subject
upon which you have now been examined ? — I have been
asked this a great many years ago ; twelve years ago, and
more too, I suppose ; when Lord Berkeley had an enquiry
here.

In the year 1799? — Yes, I suppose it might be then; I
gave my evidence at the Court of Chancery.

As far back as the year 1801 you related the same as you
now related ? — Nearly.

Did you relate the same again when the present enquiry
began ? — Yes, exactly, as nearly as I can recollect.

To whom did you relate it before the present enquiry
begai^r — To Lord Berkeley's solicitor^ Mr. Forster, X
think.

You told Mr. Forster, before this enquiry began, the same
you have told now ? — To the best of my knowledge, the
same. I

When were you sworn f — I was sworn here in MarchPS^^

At what time in March ?— The besjinnins: of March.



( 131 )

House ?— I Was amongst th^ first. I was sworn at the time
l>octor Jefiner and Doctor Parry were sworn.

And were you in the way then ? — Yes ; I was in the House^
and staid here some time.

At the time Doctor Jenner and Doctor Parry were ex-
amined you were ready tb be called? — ^Ycs.

And they were fully apprized of the evidence you could
give ? — Mr. Forster was.

Have you been in town ever since ?-^No, I have not.

When were you sent for again ? — I was not sent for now.
I came up on my own business.

When ?— I arrived last Sunday evening.

You were not desired to come up ? — No, I was not par-
ticularly requested.

When were you applied to, to come here and be a wit-
ness r — It was the latter end of Februar}'.

The first time you were applied to, to be a witness, was
the latter end of February ; when were you last applied to ? —
This last time I came up as a volunteer ; I came to town on
business ; and if I could render the family any service, I was
ready to do it, by relating what 1 had to say.

Did you offer your services to Lady Berkeley ? — I do not
know that I offered, I told her Ladyship what I had to say,
which I should be very ready to say before the House.

When did you say that ?— I do not recollect whether it was
Monday or Tuesday.

Last Monday or Tuesday ? — Yes.

Before that you had no intimation you were to be called
as a witness ? — Mr. Bloxsome was in the country, and he took
the deposition as I have stated now, and he told me probably
I should be called upon again ; I told him I was conung to
town on my own business on Sunday, and should be leady
if they wished it.

Have you seen Lady Berkeley since that time? — ^«»> ^^
Sunday evening. .

Did you offer your services ? — ^I told her as 1 was ^. ^^^^
I should be happy to say to the House what 1 couV^ *»
w as just and right. ^^^^ o^

Had you any talk with her aboi\t it ; any ^9^"^^^ ^, te^^^
the subject?— Very little, any more than I said 1 ^ qqIc
to say any thinff I had to sav. in the House of l^rd^r^^^jA^



( ise )

How long before 1796 was it that this conversation at
cards took place ? — T suppose I have played at cards with th6
late Lord upwards of thirty years ; and with the late Lord
and the present Countess upwards of twenty.

When did this conversation respecting the marriage take
place? — It was prior to 1796.

How long prior ? — I do not confine myself to one, two^
or three years ; but many years at different times.

When was the first time ? — I cannot say exactly, such a
number of years ago.

State when any conversation about a marriage passed
prior to 1796? — Some years, but I cannot state the very
year.

Was it ten years before ? — It might be four or five years
, before.

And the same conversation has passed repeatedly ? — Yes,
it has.

They were always talking about the marriage when they
were playing at cards ? — Not always, now and then.

Whenever they were playing at cards they were referring
to this marriage ? — No, that is not the case ; I may have
heard it once, twice, or thrice, during the winter, and then not
again till the next winter .

And then the next winter again ? — It would destroy the
pleasure of a good rubber at whist ; it came occasionally ; we
always played in good humour.

How many years do you suppose this conversation has
taken place when you have been playing at whist? — I cannot
say how many, but a good many years.

Do you thhik five or six times in five or six years ?— -Four
or five years mentioned once, twice, or three times ; but I
cannot speak to the number of times.

Two or three times in every year? — At two or three
periods that has been mentioned by Lord and Lady
Berkeley.

Two or three times every year ? — I do not say every year>
but this observation has been made two or three times.

At Berkeley Castle ? — Yes.

This created a general report of the maniage at Berkeley,
I suppose ? — I cannot say that it did, because Lady B^ri^ey^i
was called Miss Tudor. °'^' '^ ^ ^^ ^

Ynn marlf* nn aprrnf nf it of roiirsp. if linvinor hppn mpn-



( 133 )

How came you to mention it to your mother ? — Because
she was the most confidential person I could state it to.

This was a confidential communication^ then? — I did
not consider it proper to go and mention what passed at the
castle.

Was there any ohUgation of secrecy ? — I should not think
k was behaving, like a gendeman.

Did you consider this as a secret imposed ? — At that time .
it was a secret certainly.

Did Lord and Lady Berkeley tell it you as a secret ? — No ;
but it was not then known that they were married.

Therefore they were telling it to you without enjoining se-
crecy upon you when they jvanted it to be kept secret ?—
Thsit observation, perhaps, Mid not apply exacdy ; they did
Bot tell me they were married, only spoke to one another in
the way I have stated.

They did not desire you to mind to keep secret what was
said ? — No, certainly not ; but I did not think it would be
becoming in me to utter every thing that was said at the
casde.

But it was natural for you to repeat in conversation what
was not communicated as a secret ? — ^I did not like to make
every body as wise as myself.

Who was the fourth person who was playing at cards %vitli
you ? — I cannot say ; we had different persons to make up a
rubber.

Can you name any one person present at any one of those
times, when diuiug the several years that you were pVaying at
cards, which you say was perhaps two or three times \wa >|ear
in successive years, you remember distmctly tiiat couvetsatvou
has passed ? — I do remember it. e\it^.— ^

Can you not name any one person 'W^o >Nas pt:es
cannot. ^ cx^e^ ^^



Was there aiiy ^j:, ^^^^e^vt^- ^^^^ ^^ ^r^^o^^\

Jkxiow the number o^ ' P^''^^ *^^ l^et^^^ ^^^ ..^\^^^^^ ^



Were there several persons nr^sexit^— ^ <^^^^''?' vT^t , ^^^
Aat; if there wa,s not^norh^a °.uVe xxp ^.v^^^^...^-^
Berkeley used to send for mrJ^oTr^e oue e\..^ V
ottener tian any one. ^^ '''' . ^ ^^ ^C7^ ^^^ ^^.



iivthe presence ^f^^^^^% ba^ \^^ert V^'T''':,^^

know how man V ,> ,..^^'^> six, or J^^ ,. tior %vViow _^^a^ '



( 134 )

Was it ever said before as many as five ? — 'I cannot say.

Four?— That I cannot speak to. As many as fpur k
must be ; for there must be four to make up a rubber.

Was it ever mentioned before any body except the four
persons who were playing at whist r — 1 cannot say.

Will you swear it was or was not r — I will not swear either
way, that it was or was not. We had enough to make up a
rubber^ and that was all 1 cared for.

When was the first time that you began going to church ?—
I cannot speak to that. I was born at Berkeley.

How soon did you take to going to church ?^-That I can-
not say; I suppose when I was a good little boy.

The first twenty years you did not attend the church, you ^
said ? — Not regularly.

When was it you pretty regularly attended upon the
church ? — When 1 got a little older, I thought it was time to
mend, and to go to church, and to pray for my sins and
iniquities.

When did you take up this good resolution ? — 1 cannot
speak to the year. I have been pretty constant for some years.

Was it previous to ]79(y ^ — No, I think not.

Subsequent to 1796? — Yes.

How long subsequent to 179^? — I was in the habit of
going to church, not at all times, perhaps one Sunday in two
or three, or sometimes 1 missed a Sunday.

How often have you ever heard Mr. Hupsman perform the
service ? — A jnrreat number of tunes.

How often have you heard him proclaim the banns of mar-
riage ? — Many times.

How often ? — I cannot say how often.

Can you i-unc any one instance in which the banns were
proclaimed by him, and you did not know who it was, but in-
quired of others ? — Yes, I have done it. I cannnot the name
tke particular person I have spoken to, but I have come out
and asked some of the congregation, who were asked in
church, and they could not inform me.

Wlien was that r — I cannot tell ; it was when Mr. Hups^
man did the duty.

How many years ago ? — I cannot tell.

Was it twenty years ago ? — I cannot say ; and I da> no .
know exactly when Mr. Hupsman quitted Berkeley. vjOOglC

Was it twenty years a2:o that vou heard banns of marriasre



( 1^0 )

Was it fifteen years ago i — I caniiat tell.

W'a? it ten years ago I — 1 cannot ttli.

Was it thirty years a^o : — I would tell you if I could, but
I cannot teil you indeed when it was.

Have you uo recollt :fion of the period, nor whose banns
they were r— I have not the least knowledge in the world ;
but I certainly was there, when I could not understand who
was asked in church ; and other people have been in the
same situation.

And when that was the case, you made enquiries whose
banns were published ? — It is natural to ask in such a c^se.

Re-examined.

Did you, in jour original examination, say that Lord
Berkeley had told you he was married, or tliat he said, re-
ferring to a prior event, that was before he was married :— *
^^ That was before you and I were married, Mary."

You do not mean to say he told you that he was mar-
jried r— No, certainly not.

You saw Lady Berkeley last Suqday ? — ^Yes.

You saw a person previously in the country on this busi-
ness? — Yes, Mr. Bloxsome.

Did you know by whom he was employed :— I supposed
by Lord Berkeley's Solicitor.

And you told him you were coming upon business, and
should be ready to be examined r — I did.

Though you did not go to church for twenty years con-
istantly, yet you used to go occasionally ^ — ^ es.

And you very often heard Mr. Hupsman officiate ? — Yes.

Examined by the Lords.

In what part of the church did vou sit?~I tlii'-^^ '^'^^^
twelve yards from the reading desk.

Had you one constant seat I ^Yes.

Was it further than the wall ?_lt was twelve y^^^^'^^ N^^-

Have you stepped it r— Yes, to ascertaio the dist^^^
fore I came up here. -^^ ^^s-^

Were you resident at Berkeley in the year 17S4 '^^^ ^^^^



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( 1^ )

to lady BttkAey, diat auch and such a drcinmstatice bap-
pened before their marriage ? — Yes.

Did you ever refer to this either to Lord or Lady Berko-
iey ? — No, I never mentioaed it to them.

Did you ever mentioo to Lord Berkeley, " My Lord, so
I find you are married.** — No, 1 never presumed to do so.

.Nor to my Lady : — No.

You were a good deal struck vridi this remark ? — I felt so
much, that I mentioned it to my mother when I went
kome.

When did you mention it to your mother ?— Directly after
k happened. •

How loi^ has your mother been dead ? — Four years.

Cannot you state at all nearly the time when you men-
tioned it to your mother ? — I cannot, it is so many years ago;
it was a matter that did not concern me, and therefore I. did
not keep it in mind.

What did you mention to your mother? — ^The observation
•f Lord Berkeley, and what Lady Berkeley said.

Did you make any observation to your mother upon it ?—
Yes, I thought it strange, as she was then <!alled Miss
Tudor.

What made you think it indiscreet to mention it to any
other person than your mother? — Mere trivial things I
never related out of the castle.

What made yon th'mk it would be indiscreet to mention to
any other person this conversation which you mentioned to
your mother? — I did not mention that in particular, but
mar^ more things of more trifling import.

You have stated to the House, that this circumstance
passing between my Lord and Lady Berkeley appeared to.
jou so singular, that you thought it interesting enough to
tell your mother of that circumstance as soon as you went
home ? — ^Yes.

Having thought it sufficiently material to tell it to your
mother, why did you deem it indiscreet to tell it to any other
person ?— I really thought it indiscreet to relate every thing
that passed when we were at cards ; every little tale that was
told, that might run about the town.

Did you consider this as a little tale merelv, a mere jjokc ,
between Lord and Lady Berkeley?— I only thought it aOglC
;i4ran«:e circumstance.



( 138 )

No^ certaidy not ; | #d npt know ivb^t tiMjr meaot bj

it.

. Then if you did not ki^ow what they meant by it^ why
^ould it appear so material that you should go and tell your
mother^ nf>t being in the habit of telling little things that
passed at the castle ?— ^I might mention thii^i$ to my mother
that were not of much consequence*

Were you in the habit of telling your mother things which
parsed at the castle ? — ^Yes, sometimes.

And not to any other person ? — I believe not ; but I am
ppt quite, sure.

l)id you think that other persons to whom you told it,
might view it in the same light, and it might go no further ?-^
1 cannot tell.

What age are you ? — Nearly sixty> I believe.

Was your mother in the habit of visiting at the castle ?—
Not in the late Lord*s time ; in the time of the late Countess
of Berkeley she was in the habit of going there ; I think she
was never there but at my Lord's birth-day ; the late Lord's
birth-day.

She was not in the habit of visiting the person who went
by the name of Miss Tudor ? — No ; my mother was an aged
woman.

This did not lead to any enquiry that might lead her to
visit at the castle ? — No.

Do you know Colonel Whatley ? — Yes, v^ry well, ^

I)o you remember that you played at cards at Berkeley
castle with hun ?^Yes.

And before 1796 ?— 1 believe so ; I cannot swear it before
I7g6, but I think so.

Did Lord Berkeley seem to say this in jest or earnest ?—
He spoke in a cheerful manner.

Did jou mention this circumstance to the Berkeley family, '
or any of their agents in the year 179.Q?— When my deposi-
tion was taken, when I came to town, I then related nearly
as I have now.

In the year 1799 ^ — Yes ; I believe that was tlie time that
we were in town.

You were examined then ?•— Not in the House, I was exa-
mined in Qhancery.

That was at another time i — Yes, I was sworn and ^c*^

Avomino/l of tnof finriA



( ISO )

m Any of Aeir agents in the ye^ 1799 ?— Yes, I think Mr.
Forster ; I am not quite sure of it.

Were you examined in 1801 ? — I know my evidence wag
taken iil Chancery.

Do you know what was the circumstance which Lord
Berkeley stated was prior to his marriage ; do you know what
the something alluded to was f— ^[ cannot speak to that.

Did you know Mr. HLupsman ?— Perfectly.
, Did you ever correspond mith him ? — No ; he and I had
very little correspondence or communication. I knew no-
thing at all about hrm in that respect. In short, we had no
correspondence.

You would not know his hand-writing ?— No ; I have not
the least knowledge in the world of it.

Did you ever hear in playing at cards at Berkeley castle^
imy allusion made to the second marriage ? — No, I do not
recoMect any till it was announced diey were married.

How soon afterwards did you hear of it f— I understood
it was some time afterwards.

Did yon express surprise to any body ?— No.

Do you know how it happened that you came to be que^
f ioned atiout it ?— No ; there was nothing particular, more
dian that I recollected this circumstance, and I stood forward
to say it.

You mentioned it to somebody ?— Yes ; I menticmed tt to
Mr. Forster, or whoe\er took my examination. ,

After the commencement of the enquiry in 1799 -"^
not know whether it was after or before. ^

What vras the cause of your menUoning it to y^^'
ter ?— My examination was taken when I came to ^^^^^% ac-

What brought you to town f— I came on my I>^^
count. ^ cat»^

Who desired you to come?—! do not recollect. tlL^r, ^
up with a Mr. Croome of our pariafti, and a Dr. P*^ -%

think of Gloucester. * Xy^'^

Who applied to you to come f — I suppose it wa9 *^ ^^

Berkeley's request. ^^^^ ^^ ^^ t^^^ ^

Had you, before that, toW any body ybucoulil &^^^^^^
toial evidence?— I had menuoned this circumstai^^'''
tber It IS material I do not know. , C r^alp ^1^

T^ whom had you mentioned h ?_1 camiof ^^^Ji^jSi

Had you anv conversation «rt. /.^"^^^ "^^ b^^^f^^^^



( 140 )

Was Mr. Hupsman one of the company before whom that
expression was used ? — No, he was not. He was not a wbist
player ; it was not a pursuit he was fond of.

Were you at school any where in the year 17S4 or 1785 ?
—I am not sure ; I was an apprentice ; but whether at that
time I cannot (ell. I rather think I had left my apprentice^
ship. 1 must iiave been at Berkeley.

When you were asked about coming to town, the question
applied to the year 1799 : are you sure it was ia that year? —
I cannot be sure to the year.

You are not sure whether it was in 1799 or 1801 1 — It
was when the enquiry was.

Do you remember whether there was any enquiry in the
\ear 1 799 ? — I would not swear to the year ; but I know
very well I was up at the time that some witnesses were exa-
mined here ; but I was not examined. My oath was takea.

At which of those occasions was it you came to town with
Mr. Parker ? — When we went to the court of Chancery.

By whom were you desired to com« to town in 1799? — I
cannot tell, indeed. I cannot recollect precisely the year we
came.

You were in town w hen the enquiry was going on in this ,
House ?^ — Yes ; and also in Chancery.

To whom, previously to the enquiry in this House, did
you mention the circumstance you have stated to-day ? — I
rather think Mr. Forster took my evidence.

Had not you communicated to somebody, before Mr.
Forster examined you, what you had to say : — I *dare say I
communicated it at Berkeley to Lord Berkeley himself.

EDWAllD BLOXSOME being called in, slated, that
he was one of the Solicitors employed in the support of this
claim by Lord Berkeley. — Being cross-examined, it appeared
he was deputy clerk of the peace, and that Mr. Tudor was
his principal, and had been generally employed in tlie
management of the estates at Berkeley since 1806. — llie
registry of the banns of Lord Berkeley being shewn to him,
he was asked if he really believed it to be Mr. Hupsman's
hand writing? to which he replied, yes.— Then the registry
of his Lordship's marriage being submitted to him, he be-
lieved the words Augustus Hupsman to have been written
by him ; but with respect to the rest of the entry, he believed



( 141 ) •

^vas a merchant; and that she had been acqoamted widi


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Online LibraryWilliam Fitzhardinge Berkeley FitzhardingeA narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from → online text (page 11 of 22)