William Fitzhardinge Berkeley Fitzhardinge.

A narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from online

. (page 13 of 22)
Online LibraryWilliam Fitzhardinge Berkeley FitzhardingeA narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from → online text (page 13 of 22)
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'' certain ; he seemed to know more about it than I. 1
** couhi not recollect the year it was, and so I said no more
*** to him, because 1 could not recollect the y ar it was mv-
, ^' selfV'

Is that all that passed? — Y^s.

Are you sure he said 1783 or 178.5, or somewhere there-
about?— But I did not take so nmcli notice, for I was in
hopes I should not come.

You state that you are seventy years of age^ and your recol-
lection is imperfect r — Yes.

Are you m the habit of drinkii^ any thing strong in the morn*
nig ? — No, not any thing strong before dinner ; nor I would
not do it for a guinea or more. I always keep to that.

Yuu are quite certain that at the time you saw Lord
Berkeley *^o into the shop in Westgate-street, the militia
were at (Gloucester? — Yes.

You have stated that your memoiT is, in some degree,
imperfect; that you do not recollect things so well now as
)ou did formerly?—! do not recollect so well as 1 used.

Things which passed twenty or thirty years ago you can
remember, perhaps, belter than things Mhich paifed lately ? — »
No, I do not ; if yon ask me any thing about things in trade,
I could not tell you.

You told Mr. Pift' that you could not recollect what year it
was you saw l^ord Berkeley with Mary Cole ; whether it was
in 1783 or 17«.3r— Yes.

What makes you now so positive it was in 1785 ? — No, I
have not said so at all ; I cannot say.

The Witness was directed to withdraw

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( 155 )

tlic purpose of proving what did not pass, rather than what
did pass on the only occasion on which be saw the last -

Mr. Solicitor General objected to the witness being caHcd
ill for such purpose.

' JAMES ROBERTS, a Serjeant in the North Gloaces-
ter Militia^ being examined, deposed, that he was in the eni-
plov ot oid Mrs. Earren troui l/Bl to 17Sj, and remem-
bered the Gloucester Militia marching into Gloucester be-
fore they were dismissed after the American war; that he
gdw Lord Berkeley during that period near the house in which
Mary O^Ie was living, walLhig up and down repeatedly, and
looking into Earren*s shop at those times when Miss Cole
^vas there. He once saw I^rd Berkeley speaking to her,
but he did not converse ^onger than a minute.

Being asked if he remembered one of the family of the
name of William ? he answ ered. Ye*.

What relation was that WjUiam to Mr. Farren with whom
he lived : — A brother-in-law.

Do you mean a brother ef the wife of Mr. Farren ?—

By what name have yoa heard him called in the family ?— -
I ha' e heard him called William Cole, and I have heard him
called William Tudor Cole.

Are you sure you have heard him called bj the name of
William Tudor Cole i*-^Yes, I am quite certain ; I heard him
express his name himself.

Have you heard him called by the name of William Cole
Tudor more than once :^— William Tudor Cole never more
than once by his sister and once by himself.

Ou what occasion did he call himself by the name of
Tudor? — He and I were going down to fetch some sheep
out of the meadows; he took a gun with him and fired » and
killed a snipe ; and w hen I came up lie took the snipe hj the
beak, and *^ Here," says be, " see wbat Billy Tudor can

Is diat the only time you recollect \\\tn to have ca\WA^^^-
S€lf by the name of Tudor? — Yes, th^^t is *e oniy tiw\e-

Do you recollect the particular o^casi*^*^ on wH\cV* ^,^
lister called him by the name of Xii^of?-*^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^ ^
the habit of cabin? him '' Bill and ^ hk " and Mrs. farren

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( 167 )

You remember William Cole the father? — Y^x I remem-
ber him very well-

\\ as it before or after his death that Lord Berkeley spok«
to Mar} Colt: — It was alter las death.

How long? — About a \car and a half.

To the best of }</ur jud;:uieut^ it was a year and a half
after his death r — Yes.

Did you see Susan Cole go to Loudon ? — ^T did not sec
ler go ofi'. ,

1 hen you had no means of kno\?ing when slie went, but
from missing her: — ilrat is ail.

Did you ^ee Maiy C<»le go off? — No; I saw her when
she came back.

You ha\e uo means of knowing where she came from ;—

Do you know how long she had been absent at the time
she came back r— No.

You lived with Fairen from 1781 to 17?3? — ^Y'es.

Do you remember his being m dii^tress: — 1 remember hi*
having the l^t joint of meat m the sht»p before he went to
London; that was in Southgate- street.

Do you remember his bojiig distressed in his circumstances
while you lived there : — Yes.

Do you remember his being in confinement ? — Yes, he
was once in confinement.

Jn what year was ihatr^-I cannot say what year it was in.

\\ as it the beginning or the latltr end of the time yo«
lived with him: — I cannot say.

Was it before or after the death of Cole ? — ^Afler the death
pf Cole.

AVas it before or after the time you saw Lord Berkeley
<peak to Mary Cole? — I camiot positively say.

Do you remember a pe^^on of the name of Stram living
with Farren? — \ ery well.

Did you use to drive cattle for Farren ^itb himr — ^Yes,
Strain used to work for Irarren al'tei liie time the Amencau
war was over. ^

Do you remember anv catlle purchased of a Mr. W'\\V^^ -^
—I do not recollect it/ but 1 heard bimlaW ol his \>i^iN\^^»
four or five httle beasts of him. ^^ ^as

Have you any recoUectiou of the time tlt^tiRyE^^^^lC

( 158 ) .

THOMAS BELL, having been sworn, was examined a^
follows : '

What is your line of hfe? — I am a merchant of the City
of London ; my warehouse and business is in Saint Swithhi's-
lane in the ward of Wal brook, of which I am one of the
members of the Common Council. My residence in Lon-
don, Dean-street, Soho; and my country house at Cran*
ford, where 1 have a small estate bordering on Lord Berke-
ley's park.

How many years have you been a merchant in the City of
London ? — ^l^hirty at least.

Were you acquainted with the late Lord Berkeley ? — I had
the honour of being very well acquainted with the late Lord

Do you also know the present Countess of Berkeley ? —
I do.

By whom were you introduced to Lord and Lady Berke-
ley? — About the year 1791, my particular friend. Colonel
West, who was the cousin-german of Mrs. Bell, brought Lady
Berkeley to see Mrs. Belfs paintings. I knew nothing of
that circumstance for two or three times of her being at my
bouse in Leicester-fields, until she had begun to paint the -
portrait of Lady Berkeley ; then I saw Lady Berkeley at my

Is it to be understood that you were introduced to Lady
Berkeley by Colonel West? — Certainly, he brought her to
my house.

And to Lord Berkeley also ? — Yes.

In what character was Lady Berkeley introduced to you? — '

Lady Berkeley was introduced to me as a lady living with
Lord Berkeley, but not bearing his Lordship s name ; at the
same time

Mr. Solicitor General objected to the evidence.

The Witness was desired to withdraw.

Mr. Moore was beard in answer.

The Witness was again called in and asked,

Wpq T.nrH T^prl-plpv nrpspnt tViP "firsf- timp vvlipn \ir\ti yfct^Ttt

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< 159 )

ttiat Colonel West was in the house when I first saw Lady
Berkeley; I do not know that fact at present; he might or
might not.

Do you know whether Lord Berkeley was in the house at
the first time you saw Lady Berkeley ? — I really do not know
that. I would beg to state that when I understood that Lady
Berkeley had sat for her picture to Mrs. Bell^ I was then
anxious to see the lady, and staid at home, for my business
be'mg constantly in the city, I was early out from home, and
late returning. I staid at home that day on purpose to see
the lady, and I dare say there was nobody present but Mrs.
Bell and the lady.

Do you know whether Lord Berkeley was present when
you first saw Lady Berkeley with Colonel West ? — I really
do not know that particular fact. I cannot possibly state

Did you frequently visit the late Lord Berkeley at Cran-
ford ? — I certainly have been at Cranford repeatedly, and
very soon after M13. Bell had painted Lady Berkeley's picture,
and perhaps even while it was not yet finished. Lord Berke-
ley asked me to go down to Cranford once to see him and
spend a day, and I did so.

Did Mrs. Bell visit at Cranford also?— ^ Irs. Bell went
down then to Otmford for the first time I believe, at Lord
Berkeley's request, and the lady's of course.

Was Mrs. Bell ever employed in cleaning any paintings for
Lord Berkeley at Cranford? — Mrs. Bell never was so em.
ployed in cleaning any pictures for Lord Berkeley at Cran-

W as Mrs. BeU ever employed in framing any pictures at
Cranford f — Nor ever employed in framing any pictures there,
or any where else.

Though not employed, did she in fact ever clean any
pictures: — Never, 1 laiow it well.

Do youl recollect any of King Charles's Beauties from
Hampton Court at Cranford f — ^'l here are no such picUivcs
at Cranford. I know all the pictures extremely well.

Were there ever such pictures when you vmied at Cr^xv-
fotd? -There were never such picture.s as those at Crar\£^tO^»
t«Drc«enttitioiM ni th«* Rf^nt^^o «* n^^^w^tr^n Court. I xvi^**

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( IGO )

Was Mrs. Bell ever employed in cleaning or iratniflgf
those four pictures in the style of Lely, which might be mis-
taken for the Hampton Court Beauties? — Never.

Do you recollect the expedition to the Helder?— I have
a general recollection of it; I do not know the exact time.

Do you recollect the circumstance of the expedition to the
Helder ? — Undoubtedly* *

Were you at that time in possession of a large number of
saddles ? — I never was in possession of any number of saddles
at that time or at any time; I never dealt in the article, nor
ever bad the article in my possession.

In the year 1794 you had a child christened; if you have
any memorandum you may refer to it. — It is a mere pencil
memorandum which I have.

When did you take it i — A few days ago ; she was registered
in Saint Ann's parish.

Was the memorandum taken from that parish register? —
Yes; the parish register does not contain the birth of my
child, but the registration of its christenhig.

Is the date on that card taken from the register?— -Yes, I
went to take it, thinking I should be asked the question,

\\ hat is tiie date of that christening ? — I'he 2d of June
1794. '

What is the name of the child ? — It was christened Cathe-
rine Maria; Catherine after her mother, ^md Maria aftCT
Lady Berkeley.

Who was the godfather on that occasion ? — My Lord

W ho were tlic Godmothers ? — Lady Berkeley ; and Mrs.
Hamilton, the wife of my brolher-in-iavv, 1 believe was the

Do you recollect by what name Lady Berkeley stood as
Godmother? — When Lady Berkeley came to my house,
whether she came with Lord Berkeley or alone, she was al-
ways annoimced by my servants and received as Lady Berke-
ley, and in that name .she nmst have come upon this occ-

Did she on all occasions, when she c une to your house,
come anru>unced by the name of Lady Berkeley ? — Certainly
that I behfcve, and those were very frequent visits indeed, of
an evening particularly, eitlier alone or with Lord BerkeJ^

( 161 ]

at Lord Berkeley's a gentleman of the flame of Chapeau ?—
Very frequently.

By what name did you always call Lad)* Berkeley when
you addressed yourself to Lady Berkeley ? — I have never ad-
dressed Lady Berkeley to hei^elf^ or in the presence of any
person that I know of, by her name as Lady Berkeley, but
Alaam^ Madam, or in diat common way. I never called
her by the name of Tudor; if I had occasion to speak of her, #
I might perhaps speak so to di?tingui8h her. I might name
her as Miss Tudor, having that name from my Lord.

Did you ever see Mrs. Chapeau, the wife of Mr. Cha|>eau,
at Lord Berkeley's when Lady Berkeley was at Cranford ?—
I saw Mrs. Chapeau in Cranford House once ; I do not
recollect more than once.

Was Lady Berkeley at Cranford House at the time yott
saw her there? — Lady Berkeley was theie, and Mrs. Bell
was there, and Mrs. Cha|>eau ; which recnliectiou I have
clear in my mind, from the singular circumstance, ^shich
would not have struck me particularly otherwise, of her
being very hard of hearing, very deaf. I speak of ilr».

Was Mrs. Chapeau there on that occasion as on a visit,
or merely to see the house r — Certainly she did not call to
see the house ; she was calling there compUmentarily I took
it for.

Tlie witness was directed to withdraw.

The witness was again called in, and cross-examined as
follows :

You commenced your acquaintance in the year 1791 with
Lady Berkeley: — 1 did; it was in 1790 or 1791 ; I think

From that time you frequently vbited in the family? —
Very frequently.

When Mrs.Bell staid in the family at Cranford, were you
always with her, or was she sometimes tliere w^e« y^^ wetc
not with her ? — I was not always with her.

Jfrs. Bell was there on a visit when you ^^^^ ^^^ vv'iO^^
her? — Sometimes. ^ \^ j^ T

Did she use to go and stay there for a x^eek togelUeit^(§0®gle
longer i — C/ortainly. .. ,

( 162 )

her, certainly, if I went with licr ; but she might go without
my accontpanying lier in the first instance.

Was ibat the case frequently, that she continued her visit
at Crantord wUhoui your pre .sence r — Certainly, and very
long indeed. She painted a ^ircat deal down there ; she
painted the present J. ord Berkeley; she jrainted Frederick
and Augustus in the same picture, full len^h ; she painJed,
beside:5 that, some Ciiiaroscuro for Lord Berkeley's study,
as well as several other pictures, being very fond of 'the

How long would these works occupy Mrs. Bell, several ,
months ? — Certainly for sevei al months during the years I
have spoken of.

During which you w'ere following your own business ?^ —

And Mrs. Bell, resident altogether at Crauford, occupied
in the way you have described r — Certainly.

You do not know precisely what was the nature of Mis.
Bell's employ during the time she was living at Cranford in
your absence r — I presume she was doing that which I tell you.

You have no personal knov.iedge how she was employed
at Cranford when she was not with you? — No; but it is
easy for any man to judge, from the progress of a work when
1 came back again, how the has been employed.

Then whether Mrs. IjcU was employed, it is not meant
employed for the }>urpo^e of pay, but whether she might
occasionally, as an act of kindness or good-nature to the
family, assist in touching up or cleaning any of the })ktures
that were at Crani'oid during tlie tiir.e you were absent you
ramiot of cour.-e tell r — But I could perfectly easily see tliat
the ]^lctu*(;s were in the same state that I left tfi< in ; that
tliev had n^i been cleaned in my absence ; and that 1 knew
taev weit^ iiof, for Mis. Hell recnnnnended a man to go
il.'wn V) (U..n tlie j.xCluios, at the insiance of Lady Berke-

Wli-it ['(.irvjos did T^Irs. 1^ 'll nK-o'nmend a persow to
( Irau r — I do noi kiuiv^'. I take lor granted iUU man went
ovtji* uji tl.e {jictines al Cranford House, ^iliere were also
:i .;ieat iiia?!y pi'tures scTit to u ma!], \\hose name I forget, in
I hike Strv.{ t, \\ eslniinster, to be cle;iner|.

n.\ \oi' uf itt.'ir^] i' I ru iw uhfMhi"r 1hri'<o fV\Hr '^'''♦^"'''ysSn naiLj

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( lfi3 )

Refresked and cleaned r — I expect so ; the man would not
have done his business it he had ]iol done so.

They are pictures of km de beauties : — ^They are pictures
of four lemales, somelbing in the st\le with tlowing diaperit?,
which 1 have mentioned bef'^re.

1 he christening was in the year 1794: — Ye*?, it was.
A\ ho was the clergyman who officiated at that christening ?
— Mr. Carringlon, with the consent of the reguKir clei-gy-
man of the parish ; and d:e pas i^Ii clerk stop|>ed to take d;e
register, ar.d the clergynraiTs guinea, and his own crown.

Did Lcrd Beikeley peisonuIK attend the christening:—

\\ lio was pre<cr.t at the time: — I do not knr»w any other
person tlnm ihu^e I have nured. L.oid and l^idy Ikrkeh v,
-M/>. Ilanuilon my brolher-jn-Jaw s wiie, n jw ^Ijs. JJen-
huni. 1 have h>^i m\ hiraher-in-luw since.

Nobody else : — N b dy eUe l)ut Mr. C'arringtcn.
At the time oi tiial clnisienir.g, do yon mean U) state thjt
l^ivly Ijciki ley was aihio^-iictd at:d was ijt tke tin.e spoken or
a> the godmother, by the name of Lady Ik^i keley : — That t
do not know, whether 1 name(i h.cr Lady B< rkelev or n;*!;
1 only know iliat she never came to my hon>e unJer anv
olht-r name tlian that of J^iiy IJerkeley.

At the time of the Ciiri>tening, wliat publicly passed at
the time of tlie christening, did she go by tiie name of J^idy
Beikclev, or by her usual name ot' Miss Tudor: — I dare ^av
slie was not named either Liidv Berkeley or Miss Tudor ; I
do not buppo-ic siie was called by either name.

It must be mentioned who was the godmother: — A'ery
likely, as Mr. Cariin^ton wa^ the cltigyman^ and knew her
very well, she wa>> not named

Then she was not named at all : — I do not 'aiow thai >\'.e
%vas named al ail.

Dnraig the time that you visiied in ihe \ioiise (.f I.e.*. -a
Berkeley, frequently during iiioc, did L-^dy ]irkt-l«y;
prior to the yiar 179C), u-uiily go by \\w na.ue ot Lu^^:
Berkeley, or by the name oi Mivs i'lidor :—'^) ^^- vani*^ o^
>Iiss TuJcr certainly, before 1 TM >. . .

You have rtmcienttd lliiit n> ivjrt i^^f ^\,c n^i^'^dvandi^c ^'^

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.( 164 )

•And other leather articles ? — Certainly, I may occasionally ;
but the fact is^ the article of shoes is the greatest concern
perhaps that ever I was engaged in, and so great, that I
furnislied to the government, though 1 have not the honour
of being known to any of the government, for the whole
army of Spain 430,000 pair of shoes in the course of a few
months, and I am now delivering at the rate of 50,000 pair
a mouth, at a saving to government of one shilling a pair
under the regulation price.

That extensive employment you describe is of late datCj,
is it not within the last five, six, or ten years? — The first
time I had t\\e honour of being employed by government
was being sent for to speak to Mr. Harrison of the Treasury,

who having examined me upon the subject

When was that ? — About tsvo years ago, about the break-
ing out of tlie war on the Penis isula ; but 1 have always been
the greatest dealer in the article by supplying the contractors.
VVas there any other article than shoes? — [ have sold other
articles of that kind ; J have sold osnagburgs and sail cloths ;
in fact I was a general mej chant before I fell into a great
demand for these articles ; and more than that, I am a free
merchant of the Levant Company, and have a house at
Malta, where my sons are established ; but this takes up my
time at this moment.

When were you married to Mrs. Bell, about how long
ago ? — ^Thirty years ago ; I have had ten children.

Was Mrs. Btll the sister of Mr. Hamilton the painter ? — ■

Was she herself employed as a painter at the time you mar-
ried her? — Noj slic was not employed then as a painter; but
being extremely fond of the arts, and if J might take the
liberty before this assembly to state, I think with great talents,
I wished to e:icourage it.

Before you were married, did this lady paint at that time
pictures that were sold ? — O no, not sold ; she painted with
hci brother Mr. Hamillon.

He sold pictures of course r — Yes, certainly.

Are you sure whatever oth.er leathern articles you might
have de;tll i;i, you never did deal in ihci article of saddles ? — j
I never dealt in the article of saddles, nor had any sach ai§^^
titles on my ^^ remises.

( 165 )

saddles ? — Certainly uot ; I do not think he knows where my
house of business is.

Did you ever sliew T^Ir. Cbapeau any saddles you had
which Mere to be sent to the H eider ? — Never;
' Examined by the I^rds.

Had you ever any conversation with Mr. Cliapeau with

respect to any article whatever you were to funiish to any

of the contractors to Government at the time of the expe-"

' dition to the Helder r — I think never ; I have not any such

recollection ; certainly never.

Do you make any entry in a Family Bible, or in anv other
way, of the birth and baptism of your children? — 1 really do
not ; Mrs. Bell has got all that account.

Were not you in the habit of dining very often in company
at Lord Berkeley's with Mr. Chapeau r — 1 do not think of
dining very often with Mr. Chapeau, but of seeing liim
very often there certainly, coming in occasionally after din-
ner, or in the evening.

Can you call to your recollection whether, on such an oc-
casion as that, yen might have talked respecting your con-
tracts M ith Government to Lord Berkeley : — I do not think
I ever did ; I did not like to tell my Lord Berkeley the busi«
ness that I followed, because 1 did not bke to lead to any
thing \^hich might ask for a favour of him respecting his
own regiment ; I never asked him a favour, and would not
' lead to my business.

You say you met ilrs. Chapeau onre at Cranford House ?
—I did.

AVas Mrs. Chapeau upon a visit in the house at Cran-
ford r — I conceive she >\ as upon a visit in the house ; siie
was in the house certainly, and as much upon a visit as I
was, speaking to Lavly Berkeley in tlie common way.

Was it only on one occasion you met her there ? — ^I do
not think it was ever more than upon Oi»e occasion.

Was Mrs. Bell present ? — I think she was ; t\ie ladies h^^
been walking; 1 think they came iu walking tron\ t\\e
gai dens ; 1 saw her in the parlour speuk\ti2 to Lady l^e^^^*
ley and to my ^ife; I did not tliink. \t of ^^y great co^~
se<]uence, but being deaf it struck my n^x^t^. ^

Can you recollect having seen Mis. CJbap^'^^^^ the Uoi^^,^
— -I certainly do. ' Digitized by v^OO^ IC

% ■ r^K

( 1(36 )

Beikeley as a person in his confidence? — Certainly not; if
he had treated me with the same degree of want of ceremony,
1 would not have visited him.

Do you mean that Lord Berkeley took liberties with Mr,
Chapeau, which you would not have suft'credr — Certainly; for
instance, 1 have seen Mr. Chapeau come into the room after
dinner. Lord Berkeley would say, ^* Here comes Mr.
Scrapeau," for instance, or some nickname of that kind.

Were not these familiarities of a nature which indicated
to you great intimacy between Lord Berkeley and ^Ir.
Chapeau ? — Quite the contrary; there are a number of per-
sons suffered to come into the houses of great Lords, \\ho
are treated with familiarity, but not with intimacy and con-

Can you state any other instances of Lord Berkeley's tak-
ing liberties with Mr. Chapeau? — I think the general tenor
of his conduct to Mr. Chapeau was not that which would
lead me to suppose that he was in his confidence.

Did you ever see Mr. Chapetiu express any resentment at
these liberties t — Oh, no.

Would you generally conclude that nicknames, and lliat
kind of familiarity, was a proof that the persons who bo
treated one another were not in a state of confidence ? — If
they were in a state of equality ; but not in a situation where
they were in a state of such in. quality as Mr. Chapeau and
myself were from Lord Berkeley.

Were you living in the house at the time you saw INIrs.
Chapeau there ? — I might have been upon a visit there ; I might
l)e living there certainly ; for when I went to Cranfortl House
btfore I purchased iny own estate there, just bordering upon
it, I slept tlicre.

^ ou slept there at this time ? — I dare say I did.

Did Mr. and Mrs. Chapeau sleep there at that time.? — Nq,
I dure Hay they did nr/t; tliey had a little house at Hai lington.

Did you ever deal in retail r — No, never, in no ai licle.

Do you know, or have you any reason to believe, that Mr.
Cliapruu was in the cenlidence of Lady Eerkelcy r — That 1
do liot pretend to know, otherwise than 1 have stated from
unnpar-uu-.es: I should tliluk lu-t eeitainlv. On the contrary.

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( 167 )

name of Tudor without reluctance from Mr. Chapeau ; I
cannot therefore conceive she would treat any man with her
contidtncc who called her by a name ^^hich she .sliktd.

You have s.aid, that in addressing LtiJy Berkeley you

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

Online LibraryWilliam Fitzhardinge Berkeley FitzhardingeA narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from → online text (page 13 of 22)