William Fitzhardinge Berkeley Fitzhardinge.

A narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from online

. (page 16 of 22)
Online LibraryWilliam Fitzhardinge Berkeley FitzhardingeA narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from → online text (page 16 of 22)
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the name of Tudor ?— Yes, as her brother.

Where was it you saw him ? — 1 saw him first in Port*

When Mrs. Edge was living with you in Portland-Street ?
— Yes.

Did be then come to visit hif •btcr ? — H^ called upoxi

Once, twice, or several times P-r-l cannot teW; it w» rxot
^fteflJ think. (7ooalp

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Did he take his meals with her occasionally ? — Very

Did he at all ? — Yes, I believe he has; I did not attend
her, it was the servant attended her, but I think he has as far
as 1 have heard.

Have you seen them together ? — Yes; I have seen them
walk out together.

Did they appear to be on a friendly footing like brother
and sister? — I believe so ^ 1 have seen them gd out; 1 can^
not tell any thing Further.

Did you know a M»8. Clayburn ? — Yes.

Did you know what her name was before it was Clay^
burn? — No; she came to my house with a gentleman who
was called Major Clayburn,

Whom did they come to visit at your house? — Mrs«
Edge. She told me she was her sister.

Who told you so ? — Mrs. Edge told me Mrs. Clayburn
was her sister.

Do you remember seeing Mrs. Cutting or Mrs. Taylor at
any time at either of those houses ? — I have heard of them.

Did you see them there ?— I have seen them come in an4
go out.

At which house P—In Grafton-street.

Mrs. Taylor and Mrs. Cutting?— Yes, by thosq names J
have heard the servant say.

You say you saw a person of the name of Wahon ?— A
Miss Walton whp was like her companion ; a young lady
that she kept with her.

Do you know whom she married afterwards ?— I have
heard she married Mr. Tudor, , but I have never seen hcf

Do you remember Mrs. Edge hiring a female servant be-
fore she went to Ireland ?-'-I do not know any thing of it
more than that she did hire one.

She hired a servant to ^o to Ireland with her? — Yes.

t)id that servanfreturri afterwards?— To the best of my
recollection I think she did, but I cannot exactly say.

Do you remember Mrs. Edge afterwards marrying?—

Whom did she marry ?— Mr. Hay ward.

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(low early in 1791 do yoU remember Mr. Tudor coming
Acre ? — In 1792 it was when he came there.
, {By a Lord.) Did Mr. Cutting inhabiC your bouse ?•«-
Aner Mr. Hayward married he was in my house for a
month or two to lodfi;e.

Are you to be understood that Mr. Cutting did not inhabit
that house at the lime that Mrs. Edge inhabited it?— No*

Do you recollea when it was that Mrs. Edge nianied
Mr. Hayward? — She went to Ireland from my house; I do
iiot know exactly when she returned, but the yeaur after I

Do you know where she lived at the time she married
Hayward? — Yes; they furnished a house in Devonshire^
street. No. 8.

Do you knbw whether Mr. TudOT was present al the
marriage ?— I cannot tell.

Was he then in the habit of visiting his Bist9?-««>I cannot

You said there was a young lady of die name pf Walton,
a companion of Mrs. Edge ?— Yes.

Did she act likewise in the capacity of « servant ?-^No^
not in any respect^

Did you know that young woman when she went by the
name of Lydia Sharpe?— No.

Do you know what her Christian name was7*«*I think
Mrs. Edge used to call her Lydia.

Do you know when Miss Walton Was m^ed ?<«^o» I
do not indeed.

Do you know whether Mils Walton ever |ived with Mrf •
Claybum? - No, I do not.

You are understood to have said that Miss Waltop was «
companion of Mrs. Edge ? — ^Yes.

Do you mean as a companion that she dined fl table
with her ? — Yes.

Or was she a servant ? — She was no serv^mt \ she dined
with her and walked out with her.

Then MARY OLD ACRE was examined as follows v
Did you ever live in the family of Lord Berkeley ?— T^^^j^
Nearly seventeen years. _ .. _ \. ^

( 196 )

When did you go into the family of Lady Berkeley atf
laundry maid ? — In June 1794.

What room of the Castle did Lady Berkeley generally
sit in ? — In her dresting room.

When her Ladyship sat in that room, was she in the habit
of locking the door ? — Sometimes.

Do you recollect that more than once or twice ?— Ye^#

Do you remember Mrs. Price ? — Yes.

Do you remember Mrs. Price leaving the service ?—

Do you recollect when Mrs. Price left the service*
whether she expressed any displeasure at the conduct of
Lady Berkeley ? — Not in my hearing.

As you lived IC or 17 years at Berkeley Castle, you must
recollect instances of the family leaving the Castle to come
to Lonck^n ? — Yes.

Upon these occasions, were orders given to take away
ill the things i or were the things belonging to Lady Berke-
ley taken away ? — Not in my time ; Lady Berkeley wished
us to take away as few things with us as possible.

Were the greater part of the things that were used left at
the Castle ?— We left some at the Caslte, and some at Cran-

Do you recollect Lord Berkeley's illness? — Do you
mean at his death ?

No, a former illness ; some years before his death ?— I
think he had been ill in London two years before he died.

Do you recollect any former illness of Lord Berkeley's i^
— *I recollect he was very ill some years ago in Spting
Gardens ; but I cannot exactly recollect the time.

You have no recollection of his illness in the country ?
fp— No, 1 have not.

Did you ever see any letters written by Mrs. Price to .
JLady Berkeley ?— No.

You say you recollect Mrs. Price leaving the family ; did
Mrs. Price express any anger in your hearing ? — No, not
in my hearing.

Were you the person that had the care of the linen ? — No,
I had not.

Do you know any thing of the marks Lady Berkeley had
nn her linen ? — Her linen was numbered but not markerl. [c

( 197 )

Did yeu ever see the letter T. on any of I-ady Berkeley's
linen ? — No, I never did.

If the letter T. had been upon the linen, from the ob-
servaUon you bad opportunity of making upon the linen,
must you have aeen it ? — I think I must ; I hved in the
nursery, and the clothes were always brought there to be

And you never did see the letter T. upon them? — No,
that 1 never did.

Was it prior to 1795 or 1796 you were employed to mark
the linen ? — I cannot say.

You do not know whether it was prior or subsequent to
1795 or 179f3?— No.

Where did Lord Berkeley live in London at the time of
your marking ? — At Spring Gardens.

At the lime you marked ? — At the time I came into the

You were not in the family till Lord Berkeley lived ia
Spring Gardens ?— No.

What was the mark you did put ? — For her Ladyship
M. B. and a coronet.

Who had the principal ascendancy in tl^ family. Lord
or Lady Berkeley ?— Lady Berkeley with respect to the
children and the servants.

Have you been often in the church at Berkeley ? — Yes.

Did all the servants of the Berkeley family sit on the
^me seat ?— -No ; there was a seat for ttc family, and
two seats for the ser\'ants.

What distance was the servants' seat from the reading
desk ? — ^The distance of this room I should suppose.

As far as to the further end of the room ? — I mean that
way (the long way).

When you went into the family first, it was in the year
1794? — Yes, it was.

Did Lady Berkeley then go by the name of Lady Berke-
ley in the famity ? — No.

By what name did she go generally ? — Miss Tudor.

When did you first fcar Lady Beikeley ca\kd Lady
Berkeley in the family ? — 1 think it was 17 9 O.

What period of the year 1796 ? — About avjkiutt^^*^^^^^'^


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i-ccollect marking any thing for her, when I first went into
the family.

At what period can you say, that you marked the linen
with M. B. and a coronet ? — I cannot say at what perriod.

Was it before or after she was called Lady Berkeley ?—

Colonel JOHN WEST being called in was examined
as follows :

Were you acquainted with the late Lord Berkeley ?— I

Did the late Lord Berkeley speak to you confidentially
lespecting his affairs? — No, not confidentially respecting his

Do you recollect having had any conversation with Lord
Berkeley at any time previous to the year 1799, respecting
the legitimacy of the present claimant ? — I do.

Have the goodness to state that conversation, when
It was, as nearly as you recollect, and where ?~I was
accustomed from my acquaintance with Lord Berkeley's
house, lo be intimately acquainted, not only wkh him, but
the present Countess of Berkeley. She frequently wrote
to me prior to her declared marriage ; in one of her letters
she mentioned to me that Lord Berkeley — '

Hav9 the goodness to state the conversation with Lord
Berkeley in the first place; when wai it? — In 1797, at
Weymouth ; I think to the best of my recollection 1797 ;
I have kept no memorandums of any of these matters;
their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wales and Duke of
York were there at the time.

Have the goodness to state what then passed between
Lord Berkeley and yourself? — In consequence of a letter I
received from the Countess of Berkeley to mention to me
that Lord Berkeley had a secret to communicate to me, one
morning at breakfast I mentioned to Lady Berkeley, ** You
*' informed me. Lord Berkeley had a secret to communicale
*' to me ; what was that secret ?"

This was in the presence of Lord Berkeley ?— Yes ; it was
in the presence of Lord Berkeley, reminding Lady Berkeley

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V gave mc great satisfaction to know that she was Countesf
••* o\ Berkeley ; but pray, my Lord, will you allow me to
•• ask you one question ; when could you have done this;
•* when could you have introduced that lady as Countess
•• of Berkeley to me ?*' I do not know exactly the number
of years, but he says, ** Eleven or twelve years prior to that
*' lime;" then savs I, ♦' My Lord, am I to understand by
*• that your eldest son illegitimate." " I mean that you
•• should understand that positively that it was so." 1 then
expressed my satisfaction again, and begged leave to tell
this ; ** Will you allow me, my Lord, to tell this ; to talk of
** it abr(F»ad?" says he, ** You may." Knowing a lady I
might tell it to, which was the same as putting it into the
paf>ers. I immediately went, and informed the Prince of
Wales of it ; the Prince of Wales was informed of it that
morning at Weymouth.

" Was that all that passed upon that occasion ? — That was
all that passed upon that occasion.

Had you been acquainted with Lord Berkeley for several
years prior to this year 1797 ? — A great many years. My
first acquaintance with Lord Berkeley was, I think, in the
year 177i?, on the death of Lord Berkeley of Scratton, who
Jeft a considerable fortune to Lord Berkeley, an4 a small
legacy to me; since which time 1 have received great
fnendship from Lord Berkeley.

From the manner in which you had seen Lord Berkeley
^reat Lady Berkeley, prior to the year 1797, in what character
had you considered Lady Berkeley ? — I considered Lady
Berkeley to be treated with the utmost respect, in every
point possible, for 51 man to treat his wife ; I have no reason
10 think otherwise ; I was much at the house.

Were you the person who introduced J-ady Berkeley to
Mrs. Bell ; how did you introduce herP^-l took her to the
house to see the pictures of Mrs. Bell ; Mrs Bell painted
very well ; ' she had painted a portrait of me, and several per
SODS ; I took Lady Berkeley to the houac vo see the pic-

Oo you recQllect when it was ?— I tUxtv\-'^V ^2* ^^^^ Y^^^

W^hen you took her to see Mrs. BeU'*^ ^Vcimes, siax^ ^^
Ihe House how vou introduced her?— -"'^^^\*- ^^^^ toew tt^>
ai2ri/nacy in Lord Berkeley's house I m ^tit^o^^^ ^^^^ ^ V^^
l^'Y great reason to bcUeve there was a secret niatnag^e Vro^

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Lord Berkeley treated that Lady ; and from hints I had from
her, but not that I could say any thing positive as to the
marria ]t\ it was rather some little presumptive proof I may
callli. I vvas anxious to have Mrs. Bell acquainted with
hAv Berkeley, in order that Lady Berkeley might have some
acquaintance to visit.

You hdve in the last answer spoken of hints given by
Lady BcrkcLy, were any sucj hints given to you by Lore!
Berkeley ? — None.

Were any oF the hints given by Lady Berkeley, given in
Lord Berkeley's presence ? — I do not think they were,
. Do you recollect any conversation relative to the marriage
in the presence of Lord Berkeley, prior to that in 1797 at
Weymouth ?-i— I do not.

Did you yourself speak to Lord Berkeley on the subject
prior to 1797? — I hav-e often mentioned to Lord Berkeley
how much it hurt me calling that lady by the name of Miss
Tudor; but I had lio satisfactory answer to that.

Do you recollect the words of any answer that you had
upon any of those occasions ? — I think I recollect his saying
that in time I should know more of it, something to that
purpose; I am not very clear; I think Lord Berkeley has
said so to me, '' in time you will know more of this busi-

That was when you had said to Lord Berkeley that it hurt
you to call that lady Miss Tudor ? - ^It was.


Was that expression you last mentioned a short time be-?
fore 1797, that Lord Berkeley said, ** in time you will hear
more of this business ?" — I cannot answer that question as to
time. I was frequently with Lord Berkeley on shooting
parties and others ; but as to the time, or really as to the
exact words, I cannot speak ; it only impressed an idea on
my mind that there was something between them that J ^ould
not well fathom.

You are understood not to be positive even that the words
were spoken at all ? — Yes ; I think I am very positive the
words were spoken.

What words were spoken?-—! believe I must spea
doubtfully ; but I think the words were spoken both-by^Lord

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what period of titoe it Wat that Lord Berkdey said any thin J
to that eflfect to you ? — It was certainly prior to 1797, cer-
tainly, considerably prior to that ; it may have been two pr
three years.

Can you at all fix the date more precisely than tKat ?—
Upon my word I do not think I can.

You spoke of being acquainted with Lord Berkeley fron^
die year 177:e ? — Yes.

You fy/.e acquainted with Lord Berkeley when he lived
with MrsL Bailey thenr — I never visited Lord Berkeley
while he- lived with Mrs. Bailey. I was abroad on the
American War ; when I returned, I visiied Lord Berkeley^
but she was not then with him.

At what time did you return from abroad ? — In the year

In the year 1780 were you in habits of intimsrcy with
Lord Berkeley? — From 177^ I corresponded with him
while 1 was in the West Indies.

Upon your return in the year 1780, did you much live
with Lord Berkeley then ? — I did not much live with him
because he kept no house ; at least I did not know it ; I met
him in a variety of houses, particularly Lord Uxbridge's*

You did not know enough of Lord Berkeley to know
whether Mrs. Bailey was living under his protection then ?— -
Yes, I have heard of Mrs. Bailey ; but I was never intro-
duced to her.

In the year 17S0 ? — It was 1780 or 1782, I believe, that
he quitted her.

Can you at all speak to that ? — ^No, I cannot.

At any time prior to the year 1796 can you state whether
this lady went by any other name than Miss Tudor? —
Never. I never could say that she went by any oihec name j
I had no authority to call her by any other name ; 1 believe
she did go by thit name by several people. There were in-
stances of persons calling her Lady Berkeley*

Did you ever hear any body ^*^ ^^^ ^^^^ Berkeley ?— I

Who ^^l think in n,y visits to Mrs. Bell she has cenamly
been announced as Ladv ft.^^-el^v. ^ ^ ,

Jbat was ^"bsequenttotb"^ iotroduclion of course ?-
Was there any fc^,,,. , . _^ t^rs. Bell that you n^w ^Ic

ley prior tp the year 1796 ? — I do not think there is any one
I cbuld name.

Were you in the habit frequently of dining at Lord
Berkeley's table ? — Very frequently.

When th^t lady was present ? — Yes.

Taking several meals there from the intimacy that subsist-
ed ? — Yes, 1 slept in the house sometimes in the country, not

Which house ?— At Cranford and Berkeley.
■ And during those visits all the persons in theV^mlly— all
the servants in the family — mentioned her as Mis;. Tudor ?
~ - I question whether I ever said plump Miss Tudor, I said
Mci'am. I understood she had always gone by that name.

When the lady was not herself present and you had occa-
sion to speak of her, by her name, did not you and all others
^peak ot her by llie name of Miss Tudor ? — Yes. ,

In what respect was it there was any treatment of this lady
^vhich indicated her being treated by Lord Berkeley as his
wife ?^ - Having tlie sole management ®f the house. Not only
iliat, but the care of his estates, and the letting of lands and
other things. 1 t0(;k rides with Lady Berkeley round the
country, and she seemed to have the management of the
whole estate about Berkeley Castle. It was from that I

Lady Berkeley had a considerable degree of ascendancy
iiud controul over the affairs of Lord-Berkeley ?— Yes, she

Lord Berkeley paid a great deal of respect to and acqui-
esced in iier advice in his concerns?— In every point.

That existed during all the time you knew them live to-
gether ? — I cannot say all the time, for daring the beginning
of my acquaintance with Lady Berkeley I did not know what
to make of her.

By degrees you observed that ascendancy and controul of
Lady Berkeley to make considerable progress?-— Yes, and it
was very complete in respect of her government of every

And has been very complete in her government over the
conduct ol t.ord Berkeley ? — Yes, in every respect.

Ypu mention this circumstance to have passed at Wey-
mouth in the year 1797 ? — I think in the year'1797^ but 1
have no memorandum of the time. Digitized byGoOQlc

Prior ti) Lord Berkeley's hawuig introduced Lady Berke-

{ C03 )

had you been at Weymouth acquainted with them there ?
— No, 1 bclie\e that was my first visit at Weymouth to
Lord Berkeley ; I was then stationeri at the Isle of/Jeisey»
and came over to pass some weeks with thera.

You had not been visiting then at WeymoJth in that year
or at that time prior to^the introduction ? — Let me under-
stand the question.

You sta;e that Lord Berkeley introduced Lady Berl;e:ey
to you as such at Weymouth in the ycdr 171)7 ; had yuii
been visiting them at Weymouth before that time ? — I
think, that was my first visit ; 1 was twice at Weymouth with

Were the roval farallv there ? — Yes, thev were.

Do you remember prior to that time any fete being
j^iven by the royal family at Weymouth ?-^Xo, not by the
royal ftimily.

Given by Lord Berkeley to the royal family ? — To the
prince of \ Wales, not to the royal family.

Was that prior to the introduction of Lady Berkeley to
you as Lady Berkeley ? — Upon my word I believe it was
about the time ; I really think it was upon the same visit I
made to Lord Berkeley ; but I cannot remember whe* /.er it
was before or after, nor I do not know how 1 shoaid be
able to discover.

How long had you been acquainted with Mrs. Bell before
you introduced her to Lady Berkeley ? — ^I may say almost
from her infancy ; she is my cousin-german.

She is the sister of Mr. Hamilton the painter ?-^Yes, she
was,* of the late Mr. Hamilton.

Had she been in the course, before she married Mr. Be*.,
of paintmg pictures in the exhibition ? — ^^^» ^ ^^.^.""^ uY
her paint, or have any thing to do with pd\nuu^ uU ^^^^_-^
marriage, only a little daubing she picked up ^rom nv ^^-^
ther. After her marriage her husband ^^^"^'^VT k very
uncommon genius for painting, and- slae s\\i<i^^^
much. >^.

She had been in the habit of paint iri.^* ^^Te^^T'e vv^.
fore vou mtrod.^ed her to Lady BerR <^ '^ ^^\- "^ v '-^v -"^-
for her amusement ; 1 nevi*. A^^^^^

light. ^^^' consi^^ . , :

In that way it was you I'nfr^j i i^ ^^ «^ ^^itkdb^CoOQlc
Yes. "'^oduccd r* , vt - '.

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this — " While Lord Berkeley chose to call her Miss Tudor,
she could not be considered in any other light nhan his
mistress, and as snch I always thought her ?" — ^^\'^by,
I cannot say otherwise ; being' called Miss Tudor, I
could not suppose she was a married woman at tkat time^
I mean I coul 1 not be very cenain of it ; I only knew there
was a secret between ihem^ and they have frequently told
me there were reasons whv there was a secret.

Were not those words such as you have very lately said
upon this subject ? — Why, yes ; I really think they are.

Did yon remonstrate with Lord Berkeley on coutiniiing
the name cf Miss Tudor to Lady Berkeley ? — Afier the in-
troduction to mc, I expressed my astonishment at liis having
so long kept her in that rank in that line.

A terwhat introduction ? — ^.\fter his introduction of her
to roe as the countess of Berkeley in 1797.

Before that did you ever remonstrate on his continuing to
call her Miss Tudor ? — I did not remonsT4te ; I could uo^
pres une to remonstrate with Lord Berkeley oa that subject.

At what time did )ou come from the West Indies? — ^In
I he year I "SO.

Were you int'ma-e with Lord Berkele\- at that time ? — I
knew him excetcl'niriy well at that time, but I did not visit .
him much at his own house at that time ; I have been at
Cranford with him.

Do you recollect Mrs. Bailey living at Cranford? — I
recollect Mrs. Bailey ; but I never was at Cranford with her.

Did you neVcr dtiie with Lord Berkeley in Mrs. Bailey's
company ? — Never.

In th.e course of your life, have not you frequently dined
wirh ladies, who, though nor. inarried, were livnig with
some of your acquaintances ? — No, 1 never did, if they
were not married.

Did you never dine with a gentleman and his mistress ? —
I l.ave many times, certainly.

On those occasions have you not observed that those
ladies were treated with the same respect that Lord Berkeley
treated Miss Tudoi ^-— No ; there was a sort of language
with those ladies very differeiit that I would use mysell ; and
other persons would use a freedom oF talk I wuuld never
have introduced in the presence of Ladv Rerkelev,

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Vo^ Ccs^tj^ f"C»fr "'T'vr' i"C "•" ^ trr?— i^ -^— i^a.
^*:ft^,i :.^' ic. t .n.. v^u-.i./r i-'.H r-if-'t - — - ^f-fr'T r mux:

i '' V *- /"^ ' '/ '^ .c y^ .^ c .< ;.' a: '*'/ r* rrr:' u:: * — Z r^.^^^t r w o

7/<d ''jt i ry^ 'jt't ii. ',\^- :i^t '- — T-it i^ff 1*^ iijerc «r
Ir, >v- /'Art ''•>?. I^'xc Lr'V.^.^-r f^e- m-:rd.rf^ his

y^tA^^'^ *,'. M.a. t->'>'^Jt ; ^'/f I r,ic '_t:>j£ i^ r*e rii£ said
^//^-/f?,. ;/ »/> 'f,^ i.:'./. 'rt :.:':': :r, t.r:e c^r^t^ crr:rii::.rtcd
\'j^ ii.Hi.ajf, I ;*t/.':'i }. •:., *• ?:^y n:y L.ri, -.♦iii was it
»'.d' ^cttt-'l '''' \.*- %cA, ** 1 h^ /.:- 2 a^.'-ri n:e v/-:c., o: the
fc/y/^ft i :iho^.'i '.d\. i/jy: I) ,ri.':)' i ' L.t cucscior. ><rf :o that
j>.i/|>//i<^. If;i ^/i4/,cr, i,<; loid rr.e, w<:s, ** Your niajesty
bJ,d(l know utat i-.f j!.<^ \):ij\)f'.r tirxie."

Hit'i you any furrL-r coLvers^^tion '.viih Lord Berkeley on
tli.t %\i\>]t'iA ^"^l (jiu'.n toM that story to Lord Berkeley
ijfjr*-, 1 (tiit^mimck told l»im what I had heard upon that

Wh.it difl Lo/d Jirrhelcy say upon the occasions, when
yon it-jiiihdrd hiiii (it this hioiy ? — Only what I have now
inrnliont <l.

lit- aUv.»\hHai(l ih(-Kanie? — Yes; I never heard him con^
hdtlii'i I hat I r h.iid his answer was, ** Your majesty shall
Know ihal at the pioper tune."

You hveil at VVeyinoulh some time ?— -With Lord Berke-
ley ni hiN o\\ n holism.

VVdi theu* any <listlnctlon amonjr the children at that time?
*— None, iheie never was ; ih^re nover was an idea of a dis*
tlHC tioii.

At what time did Loul Berkeley first tell you what this

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In what month in the year 1797 were you at Weymouth ?
—I think the month of August ; but I am not very posij*

You had heard of this conversation with the king, before
Lord Berkeley had told you of it ? — I had ; 1 had certainly
heard there was a conversation.

And the conversation between you and Lord Berkeley
"was begun by you ? — ^Telling him what I had heard.

To which he made the reply you have stated ? — Yes, to

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Online LibraryWilliam Fitzhardinge Berkeley FitzhardingeA narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from → online text (page 16 of 22)