William Fitzhardinge Berkeley Fitzhardinge.

A narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from online

. (page 21 of 22)
Online LibraryWilliam Fitzhardinge Berkeley FitzhardingeA narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from → online text (page 21 of 22)
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of which he was very proud, and naturally so, would probably
by the circumstances of his family be severed frpm the title, an^
would not go to Admiral George Berkeley his brother. I com-
bated this from reasons of propriety„but I will likewise own, frorp
reason of unbounded affection to Admiral George Berkeley^
with whom I had lived in habits of intimacy from my infancy,
and I stated to Lord Berkeley nay conviction of the propriety of
providing as he thought proper for his children, but of letting
that castle and property, such as he described it, go with the
title to his brother George Berkeley. He admitted the principle
very freely, and in the course of two or three conversations
which I can perfecdy recollect, and probably there were many
more, I thought that I had preva;iled upon him to do this in the
usual way ; but I was much surprised to find an hesitation upon
the subject, which I could not account for. He told me that he ;
had another device or plan, or project, I forget the exact word,
for doing this, and he seemed shy of mentioning it, and distress-
ed ; and I think he parted once or twice from me without ex-
plaining himself; and I did not think it became me to press, but
to leave that matter to its own course. Jn about a day or two, I
think next day as well as I can remember, he came to me and
told me that he had made up his mind to tell me whftt his ideas
were, particularly as he thought I might assist him, from the
influence which he supposed me to have from old friendship
with his brother: and to my surprise he told me that he had a
daughter of whom I had never heard before, but one of those
children, and that he was very desirous that his brother should
entertain the idea of a mariiage between that daughter and the
admiral's son, I perfectly remember smiling and saying, ** the
young lady is I believe three years old," for I knew she could j
not be older, and adverting to the age of the admiral's son. I ^
treated the thing lightly, but he told me if this marriaore could take



f 98S )

He aiked me vihz£ I thoogbC of it, and T im obHged to sMediit
I discouraged k , but finding that Lord Berkeley imaghied dnt I ^
iBigbt perhaps inflaence tbe mind of his brother a^aiDA it, be
requested me to state it to Mrs. Berkeley, now Lady Emily
Berkeley, her husband being then at sea. In the eonise of die
objections that 1 made, I told him that I thought it probable that
she would obiect as a wife to her son, however distant that
prospect might be, to his daughter so educated as she was hkely
to be under a mother not married to him ; Lord Berkel^^
answer was, that if tbat was die only objection. Mis. Berkeley
should have the young lady and educate her herself. I stated the
whole of this conversation to Mrs. Berkeley ; she consulted me,
as I told Lord Berkeley ^e probably would, what her answer
should be. I know that what passed between Mrs. Berkeley
and me is not legal evidence, but it may connect the eridence;
and I state it only for the purpose of explanation. The answer
was, that she received the communication as a mark of his
aiFection for his brother, and would immediately transmit it to her
husband ; when I gave this answer to Lord Berkeley, he laughed
at my having carried a message and brought back an answer ;
which 1 told him was one recommended by me to Mrs. Berkeley :
and then said, that he would immediately propose to the mother
of his gir], or his daughter, the giving up the child to Mrs.
Berkeley ; that was the first intimation 1 had from him that she
was no party to this transaction. I told him that if he had not
consulted the mother before, I very much doubted that all the
conversation whiclr had passed between us woold come to
nothing, for that I was persuaded she would never consent
to give her daughter to be educated by another person. I ought
to say that 1 stated this from general report of that person, be-
cause 1 never was in the same room with her, and never saw her
but by accident, ^ when slie waS Wilkin^ with him in the park, at
which time I never spoke to him. Shortly after this he was to
have called upon me, and upon his sister at Wincr.ester, where I
was then quartered ; he excused himself from \t by slating that
5nat daughter was just dead ; it is that circa rnstancc wh^ch hxes
''^ ^y recollection positiveir, the exact date at ^h\ch tW <^«^^.^^-
'^^j^ took place, for that must have taken \>^^ce ^^ ^^.^ ^^^"^



71 " ^^k place, for that must have tafcen V^^^ ^'' ^" TZ..^
Bav?^.^^ thrhe. nning of 17^3, that the cb.Ul Va q-^^'ate
mon,?-:- I do%ot know exactly when. ^-\P(tJV^^-^^
in t^e^?<^ May or J^ne 179^, but I kno^ ^^f .Krweiey v^as
.nu^" :^-mh of Jane 1793 ; ^^^r that ever.^ ^^^^^^^^^ where
^e ^^^^^'tatedonsee.'ns: me the first tinc^^e ^^ ^""^J^, ^f tne con-



( 264 )

the llfe*time of his brother upon this proposal, and when Lord
Berkeley made known the circumstance of the marriage, which
he called his second marriage, the marriage of I796, I hap-r
pened to be absent when he cal)ed upon me for that purpose.
I was gone down into Essex ; he left a message to inform me of
it ; it was in the year 1 797 ; but it was a subject so painful to me,
that 1 would not converse with him upon it when we after-
wards met, excepting that I told h;m, that if there was any idea
as [had heard frbm rumour of settin;^ "p a. question of a former
marriao^e ; this communication which lie had made through me
to Admiral Berkeley, was in Admiral Berkeley's hands, and that
I must be bound to give it in evidence if it was ever called for ;
with these impressions, 1 never attended the Committee of Privi-
leges in 1 799» and took no jmrt in it whatsoever, conceiving it
was more than probable that Admiral Berkeley might think it
necessary to call for my evidence.

Did Lord Berkeley at any time previous to 1799, communi-
cate to your lordship any of the circumstances attending the
origin of his connection with Lady Berkeley ? 1 remember
perfectly well in some conversation. Lord Berkeley adverting to
her being a very good mother, taking great care of her chil-
dren ; and then he said, that she had been at a school at Glou-
cester. I said I had no difficulty in saying of her, whom I never
saw in my life, but of whom I must have heard a great deal from
rumour, that if I was to judge from public report, she had not
profited much from her school education by her connection with
him. He then said, she had left school some time before she
came to live with him ; I remember that and nothing more.

Did Lord Berkeley ever state to your lordship, the time when
and the circumstances under which the particular connexion that
subsisted between them took place? — No ; he never, to the best
of my recollection, explained more than that she had left school ;
and, 1 think, he said he got hold of her in London. I have some
recollection of his talking to me something about that, and making
use of the expression.

Did lie ever say anything of his having advanced or paid the sum
of one hundred guineas at the time of their first connection com-
mencing ?— I have a faint recollection ; but on that I cannot be
confident. I have a faint recollection of his saying something of
paying money for her : but I cannot undertake to say the precise
sum.

Is your lordship well acquainted with Lord Berkele[Q(bQ;\d4p
'writing? — Perfectly. '^'^'^^ ^ ^
A*. »-..- :^jt : -. *^ i'^r\r j:.i t i t> i_«i :



{ 90S )

^^ mimed to the penon who thai went by the name of Miis
Tudor ? — N^rer, but on the contrary repeatedly told me that he
was ijot married to that person ; repe^edly.

Did you happen to know yourself anything respecting the
attachment of Lord Berkeley to Miss Ourey, daughter of the
commissioner at Plymouth ? — I have only heard of it, and used to
langh with him about it ; but nothincr more.

Have you ever heard Lord Berkeley maVe any declaration that
he was not married after the year I796, and before 1799 ? — Cer-
tainly never ; I certainly never heard Lord Berkeley make z^y
declaration of his marriage, or cf his not beins^ married in that
interval. I believe I said before that we nad very few con-
versations in that interval ; 1 was absent myself out of England
one entire year ; I went in the yr^r I798 to Ireland, ?.nd remained
there a year.

Had you yourself any means of knowing at what time the con-
nection first took place between Lord Berkeley and the present
Lady Berkeley ^ — I certainly had not any means of knowing that,
not the most distant.

From Lord Berkeley ? — From Lord Berkeley I had no means
of knowing when the communication took place, excepting what
I stated in answer to the noble lord just now, which seems to point
out that it must have been after she left school and came to Lon-
don : that is the only date I can call to mind.

The register of marriage in 1735 was shewn to his lordship, and
he was asked.

Do yon know in whose hand-writmg the words ** the mark of

Richard Barns" are ? — I am of course to speak to an opinion only

open this, for I have no other means of decitling, but J must say,

that having looked very often to that entry whilst it has been upon

the table of the House of Lords, and looked at it with great care,

I have brought my own mind to a conclusion upon it ; I take it

for granted what the noble lord means to ask, is what I upon my

oath believe of that mark ; it pains me to say, that upon the oatH

1 have taken, I believe it to be written by Lord Berkeley -

h^^^^]soitth ^^rc^s *< Augustus Thomas tf^?^"^^"'''^^^^^
—^ ^«ao t r^slt'^^^ "I«" ^^^^ forxcasons that are ob-

vious to ^^^"^^^.^^.^''/hat examines it. ^fu leaves a stroo^
TP-^ioT'y ''^^^ ^^/^ that it is writte^ M ^^^ ^"^ ^^f^""

^^"^ ^'^o-J^ ,"/;?"'"/ ^''ff l^ichardBams.- digitized by GoOqIc

.. ^"i Vr..^ . _ - > T^rd BerkeW _-,-,te'-A Wn<ircA



( 266 )

Then His Grace the DUKE of NORFOLK having been sworn,
was examined in his place by the Lords, as follows :

Does your Grace recollect any of the Berkeley family having
their names admitted in the books of the corporation of Glouces-*
ter?^— Some year after the year 1789» at a meeting which gene-
rally takes place sit Michaelmas, both of the magistrates of the
county and the magistrates of the city. Lord Berkeley and myself
were there ; we were living with the gentlemen of the county and
the gentlemen of the town ; he then said he had a favour to ask
me, which was, that I would procure the freedom of the city to
be granted to two or three, I forget which, but I think three of
his boys, and added, " You will have two more friends.'* I
answered with many thanks, but they were so very j'-oung that
the period of any assistance of that kind was so remote, it was a
thing that I did not wish to pres^ upon the corporation. He
urged it so strongly, that I acquiesced, and proposed it to the
mayor, and the members of the corporation, who are empowered
to grant it, and some difficulty was made, but they acquiesced ;
the entries were made in the usual way, and the seals put to the
grants. In the evening, a large party met to sup, and sat later
than was usual to many, but much later than ever was usual to
him I

What was said by Lord Berkeley in that communication that
your Grace had with Lord Berkeley as to his children, your
Grace, I suppose, did not mean to say that he was in any degree
intoxicated ? — Something passed on the circumstance of their illegi-
timacy, but no declaration was made one way or the other, on
the part of Lord Berkeley, as to that.

Did Lord Berkeley assign any reason for asking that these boys
might be admitted ? — That I should have two more friends, or
words to that effect.

Docs your Grace remember Lord Berkeley addressed in this

way, iri your presence; *' You will do as Lord has done;

you will many this woman ? — I do not recollect any person ad-
dressing Lord Berkeley in that manner. I certainly cannot recol-
lect to swear tluit 1 heard him so addressed.

Then the registry of the banns of Lord Berkeley was shewn to
the Most Noble the Marquis of Buckingham, and he was asked.

Look at that book of banns, and state in whose hand-writing
you believe that entry to be, the entiy of the banns between Lord
Berkeley and Mary Cole ? — I do not believe it is written by Lord
Berkeley, as far as 1 am a judge. ^ ,

Adjourned. Digitized by V^OOglC



( 267 )

he could not recollect Mr. Tudor being there ; but he had seen the
Rev. Mr. Ferryman several times, nor Lady Berkeley's saying be-
fore two of her children, "These are the ties ; if it was not for these
it could not be supposed I would live with Lord Berkeley on the
terms I am living.*' Dr. Jenner had attended tbe present claimant
from his infancy ; to tht best of his recollection, he never heard
Lord Berkeley talk of his children as illegitimate. Mrs. Jenner,
he deposed, never visited Lady Berkeley till she took her ^tle.

The Rev. Mr. FERRYMAN was afterwards admitted to cor-
rect certain errors in the printed copy of his evidence.

JOHN HERBERT and RICHARD HARRIS gave evidence
as to the precise time when the Gloucester militia fired in South*
gate-street, instead of College Green, in 1786 or 1787-

BRYaN DONKIN, the last material witness ezamined>
being called in, was asked.

Are you conversant with the making and manufacture of paper ?
— -I am.

How long have you been so ? — I should suppose about sixteen
years.

Have you been sufficiently conversant with the mode of making
paper, to be able to form a judgment, aud to give your reasons
for the judgment which you so form upon the question, whether ^
two distinct pieces of paj^er have formed one piece of paper ?— •*
L'nder certain circumstances I think I am»

Then the registry of the marriage of Lord Berkeley, in the year
1 785, was shewn to the witness, and he was asked,

Be so good as to look at this paper (the cut leaf at the end of the
book) and the piece on which yon see the register written, and state
-whether to your judgment this paper ever formed part of that
pai>er; and if so, ^^^ your reasons for that judgment? — ^Will
your lordships permit me to uke otF this letter, it intersects the
letter. ^

The witness was informed that he might cut the letter pasted
over the leaf.

'^^ ^vhness after cutting the letter, exattuned the leaf arxd t^^
^''l^y Of the ma;rfa-e, and said,

^ *^^ven.. 7 T^ rhat this w^s the satn^ p\ece of pap^r xX^^^
^^'^^ orv''^^^^ ^' '^her part of this ^U; that tbis pv^ce o\
Pa/>er ^f'^l^yon rne ^^^^^ ^ orieiu^lly SV^ed to this p^^ oi

fn :i^^- ^L' for tbe option that vou ^^-^r^^tu.-



( K8 )

of the inouid upon the flannel, this operation Is technically trailed
couching the paper, he slips the mould and it forms a double im-
pression of the water mark, the impression of the face of the
mould ; this is a similar mould (producing one), which will pro^
bab I jr illustrate the idea : these small lines crossing the wires upon
which the paper is made, have formed the impression ^which 1
spoke of. It appears, that in making this sheet of paper, these
lines have*crossed each other in the middle of the sheet, and that
on examining this part of the sheet they diverge from about the
ceiitre of the sheet to the edge, and are at about the distance of the ,
eighth of an inch. On comparing the divergency of the linet
upon this part of the sheet with that of the piece opposite, they
actually do correspond. I have also measured the distance be-
tween line and line, including, 1 believe, seven or eight ; and that
also corresponds exactly. The quality of the paper I observe
also to be the same.

Where the paper is skilfully made do you or not discover any
th'; g of that divergency of the line ; or is not there one line with^
out two diverging lines? — .1 have very rarely seen this circum-
stance ; 1 have seen it, but it very rarely happens.

Could you, by taking a sheet of white paper, exhibit to the
House the line thut you speak of as being upon the paper, when
it is made in the mould, and how it would appear if it was
diverged!' — If I had two sheets of thin-laid paper, I could cx^
jlain it.

You see the straight lines upon that sheet of paper ?«— Yes.

If this paper was properly and neatly manufactured it would
have nothing but that single straight line ': — Nothing.

But if, after having received that straight line, the paper should
shift a litde upon the mould, that will produce another Hue besides
the straight line forming diverging lines ? — It is by shifting upon
the flannel, by unskilfulness or inattention, it is laid on one
side.

If the mould shifts upon the paper, it puts the line in a different
placer— Yes.

Which produces two lines ^ — Yes.

And those have tile appearance of diverging lines ^ — Exactly
so ; J have seen it sometimes happen that the lines arc made pa-
rallel, that the mould has slutted in a parallel direction, and that
it makes one line parallel with the other.

Digitized by LjOOQ IC



( 269 )

wouki impress the same line, but that would appear near the
other line ? — Yes, it would.

So as to produce diverging lines ?— Yes,

And you state that to be an ey.tremely rare circumstance in the
making of paper ? — It very rarely occurs in ray observation.

And upon these grounds you take these to be part of the same
leaf r — Yes, I have no doubt of it.

Docs it appear to you, from the examination you have made of
so much of the leaf as is left, with the paper which you now have
in your hand (the piece containing the register) that there are di-
verging lines in both, and that the diverging lines in each corres-
pond ? — They do, to the best of my observation.

You will observe, upon looking at this leaf of the book, that
upon the edge of the sheet there b an impression made which ap*
pears to be produced by the swelling of the binding at the edge of
it >-^l perceive that.

If the paper upon which the register is, was once part of that
last leaf, how do you account for the circumstance, that there is
not the same mark upon that paper as was produced by the swell-
ing of the binding? — It appears, by the width of this paper, to
have been cut twice, both at the edge, where it has been separated
from the remaining part of the sheet, and likewise at the bottom,
as it will not now make up the whole length of the book.

Will the paper make up the width of the page ? — It does not
seem now to coifespond exactly ; but from the inaccuracy of this
edge, we cannot probably determine.

How much is it shorter or longer than the other r — It is very
little ; it seems to correspond exactly, on measuring this long
corner.

Ho\v do you account for the circumstance, that there is no im-
pression upon the edge of it, if the width be the same? you ac-
<^ouat for there being no impression upon tbe end of it, because
t^e end is not the same ; but how do you account for tV^cre bein^
^^ inipression upon that ))art of it, which >wou\d form t\^e tro;r.
^^ge of the paper, the width being the saIx.e>-^ny ^J);.^^^'^^^^^^^^
made r ' * ' * -^-' '^" -— •• ^- '^ '^«* "^^^^ ^^'^



^ ^ upon it in this way after tbe paper is once ^^^^ J(' ^^^^^, .^,,
"" "^-nLent n.nression : and if a leaf li^>..a§ teceiNed sucv



l^rn,anent impression ; and if a leaf H^^.a^tece^- ^^^^^^^^
tw^^^^^^"' should afterwards be exposecl jto a^^^- ^^^
"" flut surfaces, the first impression woi^lc^be obUtei

\X> -i_ • r nut UPO'^ ^"^ ^^'

per ould not ,be circu«.^ance of P«f ^^^'^'Je^^'^'^-^^'t'
i^J" tend to faciUtate the 'mprcssbii s •be-xr.g Tmnness upoa ibe
•W^'^^tedly. a.-.y thi,>g that would pro^^<:e d«t.pn y



( 270 J

the binding of the book which you have now hold of: have yofl
any means of knowing when that sheet was manufactured ; at
what period that was manufactured, or by ,whom ? — It is almost
impossible in this light to ascertain whether there is a date upon it
or not, and upon the very place where the mark would b^, there
is this piece of paper (the certificate signed John Best) covering it as
it did in the former instance.

The witness was informed that he might cut the certificate
pasted upon the paper ; which he did ; and having examined the
paj>er was asked.

From the observation you have made of that sheet of paper,
does there appear to be any date upon it ? — Not that I can
observe.

Are you able to say where that paper was manufactured?—
There appear to be two letters ivpon it distinctly, L. M. and like-
wise a mark somewhat representing the Dutch mark ; some of the
the English makers used to imitate the Dutch mark, and probably
it may be the mark of a person of the n^aLme of Lewis Munn, but
that 1 am not certain of.

If it is not the make of Lewis Munn, do you think it foreign
paper ? — It has much the appearance of foreign paper.

Where was Lewis Munri's manufactory? — I believe it is in
Kent, the old man's ; there are two Lewis Munns ; one at Rick-
mansworth, and the other in Kent.

Are they still manufacturers of paper ? — I do not know whe-
ther the old man is or not.

Have the other leaves of the book that mark ? — The other
leaves of the book are of quite a different kind of paper.

Wlicn a book is bound the leaves are cut smooth with an in*
striiment? — Yes, by a plough.

Without that instrument can you cut a single piece so smooth
as that ? — Undoubtedly, either with scissars or a knife.

You think it can be cut as smooth as that ? — Yes, but neither
of the edges of this piece of paper appear to be the original leaf
lefe upon the book, the piece is cut narrower.

Suppose two leaves are pasted together for a considerable time,
can thev be afterwards sepaiatedby a knife without cutting one or
the other ? — I do not know that it is impossible, but I should
think it an extremely difficult case.



Su[)pose two leaves pasted to<7ether for a considerab

Digitized by



'G^k



( 271 )

register of the marriage is, did you observe any remains of pencil
lines upon it ? — There are pencil lines.

Look at the other sheet where there is the register of Cowley's
marriage, and see whether you can see any perxil lines ? — No, I
see none here. Yes, on examination 1 see there are lines here.

Take notice of these two lines t^c;:ether, and say whether they
appear to you to have been made at the same time ? — They ap-
pear to be much of the same colour, and about the sam? distance.
The lines upon this part of the sheet appear not to be eq .i-distant
from each other, the two or three lines remaining upon the part
containing the register appear to be equi-distant.

Look at the sheet at the commencement of the book ; do not
that which is pasted uj>on the board, and that leaf which forms
the first leaf in the book, appear to be the same sheet ? — Yes,
they are the same sheet.

That sheet of paper is totally unconnected with the sheet at the
end of the book ? — Yes.

Look and see whether the lines diverge in the same manner in
that sheet ? — They do diverge in the same manner.

With respect to the pencil lines, do anv of them correspond
with any of the others? — Many of ti^em correspond to the width ;
but I would observe with regard to the two sheets having the
same divergency of these lines, it might happen that the paper
might be made upon a double mould, that is two sheets being
mad'» at the same time upon one mould, and being turned out
upon the same flannel, and conducted through the subsequent
process of the paper manufactory nearly together, and probably
these two sheets might come together from the same mould, but
thnt is mere probability.

Can you by looking at that leaf see who made it, or where U
"Was made ? — There is no water-mark ujx)n this part of the leaf.

Can you tell whether that smooth edj:,(^ to wh\ch you were
before referred, was made with a ploaga or a knifed — Tt^^^ ^
impossible.-

Huve vou anv means of judging how longr Oac wnt\n^ of t\ie

certificate may have been upon the j)aper ? Sone wbale^et.

^het.er ten, fifteen, or twenty years ?— HCuat ^^^^^^^^^
Co!. '^ yo^ b;naght up in the piper \^ v^ s^nc.-; ■ ^^^^ .^^^^ -^^
mat-^'^nt with the paper manuf-crory n ^^_tI>, ;. ' ^



( 672 )

Honse do agree with the said report, *' That the CJaimant, Wil-
liam FitzhardingI Berkeley, had not made good hi«
claim to the titles, honours, and dignities of Earl of Berkeley,
Viscount Dursley," &c. which was carried nem. dis.

The Lord Chancellor then moved the following resolution,
which was also carried in the affirmative : —

** That an humble address be presented to his Royal Highness


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 21

Online LibraryWilliam Fitzhardinge Berkeley FitzhardingeA narrative of the minutes of evidence respecting the claim to the Berkeley peerage, as taken before the Committee of privileges in 1811. Together with the entire evidence of the persons principally concerned. To which are added, facsimiles of the banns, and register of the marriage: extracted from → online text (page 21 of 22)